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Message no. 1
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: The Purpose of Karma and Karma Pool
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 19:05:35 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, David Buehrer wrote:

> Which brings the topic to something that I want to rant
> about. I'm starting to have a real hard time feeling that
> the Karma Pool is justified. If the universe doesn't care
> if you're "bad", why should it care if you're "good"? If a
> character does something "bad", or stupid, most of the
> people on this list seem to feel that they should suffer
> the consequences of their actions through roleplaying. Yet
> if a character does something "good", or succeeds, they get
> more points for their Karma Pool.

First things first, I award Karma not for "good" deeds in a moral
sense but for good planning, success, good role-playing (even if you're a
mass murderer), creativity, and accomplishing the goals dictated by the
game and scenario in question. It's not a question of whether you're
morally pure, but how good you are at your job.
Let's face it; "karma" is probably a bad name for Shadowrun's
experience system. It has too many connotations that result in
discussions like this. Karma is, pure and simple, a measure of
experience. Doing more stuff gets you more Karma. It represents the
valuable lessons learned in the characters' lives.

> They can then use their Karma Pool to overcome insurmountable odds,
> defying random chance and fate.

As far as Karma Pool goes, it does *not* allow you to overcome
insurmountable odds. There's only so much you can do with it. When
facing a target number of 14 with only 2 dice, you'll still probably
fail, even after burning like 10 karma on re-rolls (which is only 4
re-rolls).
I don't even view it as a matter of luck. It's just a
save-your-ass bit of knowledge or experience you've picked up along the
way that's not reflected in your skills or attributes. It's that "gut
feeling" you develop after years of living on the edge. You know when to
get your head down (boom, karma re-roll for a dodge). You've fought
against someone using this martial arts skillchip before (boom, karma
re-roll on unarmed combat). Wait, you've made that mistake before when
bypassing this kind of mag-lock (boom, re-roll on Electronics). You're
going to put a lot of time, effort, and concentration into this spell
design (boom, extra dice in Magical Theory). Etc, etc. Again, it's not
luck or the universe liking you, it's experience.
Similarly, I suppose, Team Karma could be viewed as the tightness
that comes when a group has worked together for a long time and been
through hairy situations. They get some clue of how the others will
react, and that helps each one individually.

> Sure, it creates a great cinematic/heroic effect. But it changes the
> nature of the game. When the PCs in my game where rookies it was cold
> and dark and unforgiving, as represented by the rules of the game. Now
> my game has turned into a comic book.

Comic bookish how? Can your players always succeed? How out of
control are the Karma Pools? How often do they use them. In what
circumstances? *How* do they use the points (re-rolls, extra dice,
successes)?

> I'm thinking of tossing the Karma Pool rules altogether, in my game,
> so that I can return to what attracted me in the first place.

Before doing this consider a few options:

1. How do you allow Karma to be put into the Pool? Is it 10% of
the total Karma award for each run, round up? That means that if players
get 5 or 6 Karma, or even 1, they can put one into the Pool. This
rapidly leads to *huge* Karma Pools. Rather, allow players to have a
Karma Pool that is a maximum of 10% of their *total* Karma. Thus, new
characters can't put Karma into the Pool until their total is 10 (or 11,
depending on how you calculate it). Thus, a character with 47 total
Karma earned can only have a maximum Karma Pool of 5 (one original, plus
four more put in later), and can certainly have less if he or she has
burned Karma for successes. I think that this was the original intent of
the rules, but they are sufficiently vague that different people have
different interpretations of it. Big surprise, right?

2. Consider the situations in which characters are using Karma Pool
points. Are they using them in combat? In other situations? I don't
know how your campaign works, and I won't presume to tell you how to run
it, but look at the kinds of target numbers the players are facing. Gods
know I've ranted enough on target number mods, but I'll leave you with
this thought; a re-roll means a hell of a lot more at a target number of
2 than it does at a target number of 10. Added to this is the fact that
successive re-rolls cost more, and burning for successes is *permanent*.

3. How often do you let the Pool refresh? Every run? Every scene?
Sometimes letting it go longer between refreshes cuts down on spurious
Karma use.

4. Try the following guideline: When in a situation that is critical
to the character's survival (i.e. life-threatening), Karma Pool works as
normal. When in non-lethal situations, however, the player can use Karma
Pool points as well, but on the understanding that *any* use of the
points (including re-rolls and extra-dice) is a *permanent* burn. So
characters have the capability to save their asses when absolutely
necessary, but won't be burning Karma Pool points to see who spills a
drink in whose lap (a situation that actually happened between two of my
players once). Sometimes "style" is necessary, but making it permanent
burn will keep players from getting out of hand and succeeding at
*everything* they attempt. The one caveat of this approach (and it works
pretty well) is that some care needs to be given in defining exactly what
constitutes "life-threatening." Cases usually need to be handled
individually.


For the record, one of my campaigns is played with Karma Pool and
the other without. The one without has a slightly higher mortality rate
and character advance slower ('cuz they're burning Good Karma to get out
of scrapes). It's all a question of what you're looking for in your game.
Maybe give these a try and see if it helps. It's hard to make
suggestions without knowing more about your campaign, but maybe this
helped. Anyway, just a few thoughts.

Marc
Message no. 2
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: The Purpose of Karma and Karma Pool
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 09:35:35 GMT + 2:00
@ On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, David Buehrer wrote:
@
@ > Which brings the topic to something that I want to rant
@ > about. I'm starting to have a real hard time feeling that
@ > the Karma Pool is justified. If the universe doesn't care
@ > if you're "bad", why should it care if you're "good"? If a
@ > character does something "bad", or stupid, most of the
@ > people on this list seem to feel that they should suffer
@ > the consequences of their actions through roleplaying. Yet
@ > if a character does something "good", or succeeds, they get
@ > more points for their Karma Pool.
@
@ First things first, I award Karma not for "good" deeds in a moral
@ sense but for good planning, success, good role-playing (even if you're a
@ mass murderer), creativity, and accomplishing the goals dictated by the
@ game and scenario in question. It's not a question of whether you're
@ morally pure, but how good you are at your job.
@ Let's face it; "karma" is probably a bad name for Shadowrun's
@ experience system. It has too many connotations that result in
@ discussions like this. Karma is, pure and simple, a measure of
@ experience. Doing more stuff gets you more Karma. It represents the
@ valuable lessons learned in the characters' lives.

Hear Hear! I agree that the name Karma has to many connetations.
Prehaps it should be swopped with the like of Development Points,
Nah! Forget the thought. As for the universe caring whether you
are 'Good' or 'Bad' , I agree that that it is an almost pointess
distinction as those refer to the two ends of a continuum.
<Philospohical discussion mode off>. However 'stupidity' is not
excusable (usually), especially in the SR world. If the character
mucks up once or twice so a some-one gets to know. However when the
characters start to become developed stupidity costs lives as usually
the characters have one or two enemies in the wings, a newbie wanting
to make a name for himself etc.

@ > They can then use their Karma Pool to overcome insurmountable
odds, @ > defying random chance and fate. @

Really? Sob, Sob. ;) Unfortunately I cannot comment on this as we
removed team karma and good karma from play. We only have karma, for
you may burn only a single point per action for one extra die.
Harsh, but it works. It forces the characters to prevent going into
firefights or if that is inevitable the characters spend a great deal
of time trying to get just that extra -1 to the T#.

As for random chance and fate, well they occur. In situations
that require luck etc, we can burn as many Karma as we have, eg After
running through the sewers for a couple of hours, my character tried
to make his way towards the Orc Underground. During this time, he was
on nine blocks of stun, and 3 physical eventually his sythcardium
gave out (damage from a previous game) and he took an extra block of
stun, knocking him out. Spending 1 Karma (and a Will Power Roll) the
character managed to remain conscious for a vital few seconds longer,
enough to find a small grotto (Luck Roll 3d6 the higher the better).
Obvioiusly the situation is not condusive to recovery and there where
poeple chasing the character. Rolling another luckroll ended up with
a 9, not brillent but still not good. The character burned 9 karma to
force the roll to equal 18. The Yakusa missed seeing him in the
grotto and a couple of hours later the character was picked up by
some orcs who took him back to the underground where he was nursed
back to health.

Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to face the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 3
From: Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.gov>
Subject: Re: The Purpose of Karma and Karma Pool -Reply
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 08:04:22 -0400
>>> Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
08/06/96 07:05pm >>>
<SNIP>

4. Try the following guideline: When in a situation
that is critical to the character's survival (i.e.
life-threatening), Karma Pool works as normal. When
in non-lethal situations, however, the player can use
Karma Pool points as well, but on the understanding
that *any* use of the points (including re-rolls and
extra-dice) is a *permanent* burn. So characters
have the capability to save their asses when
absolutely necessary, but won't be burning Karma
Pool points to see who spills a drink in whose lap (a
situation that actually happened between two of my
players once). Sometimes "style" is necessary, but
making it permanent burn will keep players from
getting out of hand and succeeding at *everything*
they attempt. The one caveat of this approach (and it
works pretty well) is that some care needs to be given
in defining exactly what constitutes "life-threatening."
Cases usually need to be handled individually.

Marc
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Actually I run a game with high Karma pools and a
hideously high Team Karma pool. I encourage the
use of Karma for situations like the drink situation you
mentioned above. I would then usually throw them
into a fire fight or something shortly there after without
having the pool refresh. It teaches a great lesson on
saving Good Karma to save your ass only. If players
are stupid enough to waste Karma on who gets to
dump a drink or make a bullseye in a dart game then
they better be so good in "life threatening" situations
that they won't need the Karma.
Message no. 4
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: The Purpose of Karma and Karma Pool
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 10:41:29 -0600 (MDT)
Marc A Renouf wrote:
|
[snip: a very good perspective on Karma Pool]

Thanks. You've given me a lot to think about.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~

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