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Message no. 1
From: dbuehrer@****.org dbuehrer@****.org
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 12:25:44 -0600
Wordman wrote:
\ > \ Interestingly, Mr. Adams describes the world of a video game, where both
\ > \ time and space is quantized.
\ >
\ > Does that mean that both time and space are quantized in the Matrix?
\
\ I would think it would have to be. It is likely quantized small enough as to
\ be perceived as continuous, like, say CD music is. To be run by what is
\ currently defined as a computer, it would need to have both discrete time
\ and position.
\
\ Two things. One: Computers have different quantized limits at different
\ times and for different reasons. For example, a computer could track the
\ actual position of a rocket with great accuracy (as much as its floating
\ point system would allow). On the other hand, to paint a rocket, a computer
\ is limited to the number of pixels available, which will have much less
\ resolution than the floating point number would.

I now have a question (and it's been a while since I read VR2, so forgive
me if this is a stupid question).

How can a cyberdeck allow a decker to perceive a UV system? It would be
like using a CGA video card to display a 32 bit SVGA image. I'm assuming
that a UV system is running on one hell of a mainframe.

Or should one assume that simsense technology has reached the point that
it's pretty much topped out and the the difference between a decker's deck
and a UV host is like the difference between a 32 bit image and a 128 bit
image (i.e., the decker can't tell the difference).

\ Second: It would be interesting to think of what it would mean if the Matrix
\ was not quantized. A truly infinite computer system would be... interesting.

At that point I figure magic would be possible in the Matrix.

-Graht
--
"If we fill our hours with regrets of yesterday
and with worries of tomorrow,
we have no today in which to be thankful."
Message no. 2
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:37:04 -0400 (EDT)
dbuehrer@****.org wrote:
> I now have a question (and it's been a while since I read VR2, so forgive
> me if this is a stupid question).
>
> How can a cyberdeck allow a decker to perceive a UV system? It would be
> like using a CGA video card to display a 32 bit SVGA image. I'm assuming
> that a UV system is running on one hell of a mainframe.
>
> Or should one assume that simsense technology has reached the point that
> it's pretty much topped out and the the difference between a decker's deck
> and a UV host is like the difference between a 32 bit image and a 128 bit
> image (i.e., the decker can't tell the difference).

Well, a UV host can process the image data faster and thus can create a
more realistic simulation. One of two things happen (depending on who you ask)
- The data is sent back down the fiber to the decker, and the sim h/w
processes it like anything else. We can assume in 60 years they've got the
protocols and compression tech advanced enough to process realistic video
and auto in real-time over a WAN.
- Since the decker's consciousness is considered to be on the host, he
just "sees" what's there as it is, so the deck is only processing actual
contacts.
Message no. 3
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:15:17 -0700
On Fri, 08 Oct 1999 12:25:44 -0600 dbuehrer@****.org writes:
<SNIP>
> I now have a question (and it's been a while since I read VR2, so
forgive
> me if this is a stupid question).
>
> How can a cyberdeck allow a decker to perceive a UV system? It would
be
> like using a CGA video card to display a 32 bit SVGA image. I'm
assuming
> that a UV system is running on one hell of a mainframe.
>
> Or should one assume that simsense technology has reached the point
that
> it's pretty much topped out and the the difference between a decker's
deck
> and a UV host is like the difference between a 32 bit image and a 128
bit
> image (i.e., the decker can't tell the difference).
<SNIP>

Okay, after seeing the Silicon Graphics demo a while back, I think I can
answer this reasonably well.

Here's my opinion ofhowit happens:
First, the cyberdeck doesn't process an image. It's like a dummy
terminal (in regards to matrix iconography) ... basically an input device
and a monitor.
The matrix imagery is processed (in real time) on the host. Thus the
difference between UV and the other hosts is what detail they can process
in real time.

So to use your analogy. It's like using a SVGA card to view CGA images
and suddenly stumbling upon a SVGA one ...

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 4
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:03:09 EDT
In a message dated 10/8/1999 1:26:35 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@****.org writes:

> I now have a question (and it's been a while since I read VR2, so forgive
> me if this is a stupid question).

Forgiveness??? Why on EARTH would we do that??? ;-P

> How can a cyberdeck allow a decker to perceive a UV system? It would be
> like using a CGA video card to display a 32 bit SVGA image. I'm assuming
> that a UV system is running on one hell of a mainframe.
>
> Or should one assume that simsense technology has reached the point that
> it's pretty much topped out and the the difference between a decker's deck
> and a UV host is like the difference between a 32 bit image and a 128 bit
> image (i.e., the decker can't tell the difference).

Actually, I do believe this little bit of answering is going to be done very
soon. The information concerning Simsense itself is more than capable of
making this happen, but one little tid-bit, and a tiny one at that, might
make people *really* think more deeply.

> \ Second: It would be interesting to think of what it would mean if the
> Matrix
> \ was not quantized. A truly infinite computer system would be...
> interesting.
>
> At that point I figure magic would be possible in the Matrix.

I don't. Infinite Possibilities is one thing IMO, Infinite Possibilities in
a Finite Environment is still Finite.


-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/intro.htm]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 5
From: dbuehrer@****.org dbuehrer@****.org
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 14:30:40 -0600
Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
\ In a message dated 10/8/1999 1:26:35 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
\ dbuehrer@****.org writes:
\
\ > I now have a question (and it's been a while since I read VR2, so forgive
\ > me if this is a stupid question).
\
\ Forgiveness??? Why on EARTH would we do that??? ;-P

;p

\ > \ Second: It would be interesting to think of what it would mean if the
\ > Matrix
\ > \ was not quantized. A truly infinite computer system would be...
\ > interesting.
\ >
\ > At that point I figure magic would be possible in the Matrix.
\
\ I don't. Infinite Possibilities is one thing IMO, Infinite Possibilities in
\ a Finite Environment is still Finite.

We're postulating a *truely* infinite computer system, ergo Infinite
Possibilities in an Infinite Environment.

...I just had an epiphany. The human brain has a clock rate (I have no
idea what that is). So we must perceive things in frames, i.e. our view of
the universe is quantized. So... oh hell, I lost it :-/

-Graht
--
"The battles that count aren't the ones for gold medals.
The struggles within yourself; the invisible, inevitable
battles inside all of us; that's where it's at."
-Jesse Owens
Message no. 6
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:01:32 -0400
> ...I just had an epiphany. The human brain has a clock rate (I have no
> idea what that is).

I don't think this is true. Certainly, if the human brain does have a clock
rate, it is not constant. There is evidence that a big part of the way the
brain works relies not only on the pattern of neurons firing, but the timing
between firings. USC recently built a voice recognition system modeled on 11
neurons which use such timing information: it beats humans
(http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/10/991001064257.htm).

Wordman
Message no. 7
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:26:33 -0400 (EDT)
dbuehrer@****.org wrote:
> We're postulating a *truely* infinite computer system, ergo Infinite
> Possibilities in an Infinite Environment.
>
> ...I just had an epiphany. The human brain has a clock rate (I have no
> idea what that is). So we must perceive things in frames, i.e. our view of
> the universe is quantized. So... oh hell, I lost it :-/

I think you're referring to the eye "capture rate" of about 24 frames/sec.
The brain's normal state of consciousness has a wavelength of 12-15 Hz,
on one of those fancy machines. But the brain is capable of processing massive
amounts of information very quickly. If it does have a clock rate, it's more
than compensated for by parallel processing.

Then again, if you believe the Hologram Theory of how the brain works, the
infinite possibility thing is more plausible.
Message no. 8
From: Fanguad fanguad@****.rit.edu
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 17:28:20 -0400
> ...I just had an epiphany. The human brain has a clock rate (I have no
> idea what that is). So we must perceive things in frames, i.e. our view of
> the universe is quantized. So... oh hell, I lost it :-/
>
> -Graht

Well, human eyes are, in a way. The sensory rods and cones
can only fire once every so often, however, they are not on a set
firing cycle. It makes it look more like continous motion than, say
a computer screen, but it isn't.
As for the human brain, I think you could apply the same
principle. The neurons must have some sort of 'refresh' cycle
before they can fire again. However, since they aren't all firing at
the same time, it would be hard to classify as a clock.

-Fanguad
-------------------------
Modern programming is a race between programmers
striving to create bigger and better idiot-proof
programs, and the Universe trying to create bigger
and better idiots.

So far, the Universe is winning.
Message no. 9
From: Frank Pelletier (Trinity) fpelletier@******.usherb.ca
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:31:06 -0400
Richard Tomasso <rtomasso@*******.com>

> I think you're referring to the eye "capture rate" of about 24 frames/sec.
> The brain's normal state of consciousness has a wavelength of 12-15 Hz,
> on one of those fancy machines. But the brain is capable of processing
massive
> amounts of information very quickly. If it does have a clock rate, it's
more
> than compensated for by parallel processing.
>
> Then again, if you believe the Hologram Theory of how the brain works, the
> infinite possibility thing is more plausible.
>

Bringing this back to SR, don't you think that in 2050, well, actually,
starting with the first cyberdecks in the 2020s, scientists have found how
the brain actually works? I mean, with the different machine-brain
interfaces available in SR, they couldn't possibly do it by throwing signals
and specific neurons and hope for the best. They had to know how the whole
brain works, how it reacts, then convert normal electronic data to whatever
system the brain uses. So is a datajack nothing more than a converter,
crossing that gap between the brain and raw data? And if it is so, don't
you think SR's world would've made infinitly more progress in organic
computers and neural networks? Just a question...

Trinity
---------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
fpelletier@******.usherb.ca
"Let them hate me, provided they fear me" - Atreus

Trinity- on the Undernet and EFNet
Message no. 10
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:38:12 EDT
In a message dated 10/8/1999 3:31:22 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@****.org writes:

>
> \ I don't. Infinite Possibilities is one thing IMO, Infinite
Possibilities
> in
> \ a Finite Environment is still Finite.
>
> We're postulating a *truely* infinite computer system, ergo Infinite
> Possibilities in an Infinite Environment.

I did realize what was being postulated, however, and maybe I'm just WAY
off-base here, but in order to reach this, shouldn't the "HARDWARE" be of
functional infinitude in order for this to be achieved? Quantum Interface or
no, there are still limitations. Hell, to work in a fictional mode here,
even Star Trek's technology, which has AI btw, does NOT have infinite
computer structures of even a "virtual reality" on true parity with "Matrix

Technology" from Shadowrun. I'm not saying that they couldn't have it, they
just don't.

-K
Message no. 11
From: Paolo Marcucci pmarcucci@******.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:09:12 -0700
-----Original Message-----
From: Ereskanti@***.com <Ereskanti@***.com>
>Hell, to work in a fictional mode here,
>even Star Trek's technology, which has AI btw, does NOT have infinite
>computer structures of even a "virtual reality" on true parity with
"Matrix
>Technology" from Shadowrun. I'm not saying that they couldn't have it,
they
>just don't.


Holodeck. Holograms and force fields. If that's not a virtual reality, I
don't know one that is :)

-Paolo
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
World Politeness Through Superior Firepower
Message no. 12
From: Iridios iridios@*****.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:02:56 -0400
Paolo Marcucci wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ereskanti@***.com <Ereskanti@***.com>
> >Hell, to work in a fictional mode here,
> >even Star Trek's technology, which has AI btw, does NOT have infinite
> >computer structures of even a "virtual reality" on true parity with
"Matrix
> >Technology" from Shadowrun. I'm not saying that they couldn't have it,
> they
> >just don't.
>
> Holodeck. Holograms and force fields. If that's not a virtual reality, I
> don't know one that is :)

Ahhh. But Star Trek style holograms have substance. They are real,
if only temporarily. True virtual reality has no substance and exists
only "within the minds of the viewers".

--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."
Message no. 13
From: Paolo Marcucci thatpaolo@****.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:11:39 -0700
> Ahhh. But Star Trek style holograms have substance. They are real,
> if only temporarily. True virtual reality has no substance and exists
> only "within the minds of the viewers".

<nitpick mode>
Well, there's no such a thing like a *true* virtual reality. By definition,
VR is whatever emulates closely enough reality. Our normal association with
computers is nothing more than a convenience.
</nitpick mode>

Anyways, back to the original question. Naturally Matrix Space is quantized,
like normal space. The main difference is the dimension of these
quanta/quanti. I would say that, while Matrix Space is quantized, the
quantization is noticeable only on low power hosts.

Every corp host is powerful enough to represent icons and constructs with
high enough resolution to look non-quantized to the decker.

Of course, we're entering a totally different realm here... what sense does
a decker use to "see" the matrix? Not sight, of course, so we're not limited
by the slow retinal responses... maybe the clock of the ASIST interface is
the quantic limit.
-------------------------------------------
-Paolo
World Politeness Through Superior Firepower
Message no. 14
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 02:24:34 EDT
In a message dated 10/8/99 1:31:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
dbuehrer@****.org writes:

> We're postulating a *truely* infinite computer system, ergo Infinite
> Possibilities in an Infinite Environment.
>
> ...I just had an epiphany. The human brain has a clock rate (I have no
> idea what that is). So we must perceive things in frames, i.e. our view of
> the universe is quantized. So... oh hell, I lost it :-/
>
> -Graht

I dunno.... I've always considered the human brain to be more of an analouge
device rather than a digital one, myself.
Message no. 15
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 03:12:58 EDT
In a message dated 10/8/99 10:16:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
thatpaolo@****.com writes:

> Of course, we're entering a totally different realm here... what sense does
> a decker use to "see" the matrix? Not sight, of course, so we're not
limited
> by the slow retinal responses... maybe the clock of the ASIST interface is
> the quantic limit.

Interesting question indeed, Paolo. I for one always assumed that what the
Asist did was to create the same "inputs" that your normal meat
"sensors"
do... Of course, then that raises another sticky issue, since we then have
to figure out just how it is that a Datajack can plug into those sensory
nerves with little essance loss as compared to other headware.

Given what has been written about the matrix to this point, and what I know
about computers in general, is that the major quanta limit would be overal
bandwidth, rather than the cpu power of the Deck or Host in question. Of
course, then that once again raises the nasty question of how do UV hosts
look so real, doesnt it?
Message no. 16
From: Paolo Marcucci thatpaolo@****.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 00:20:47 -0700
> Given what has been written about the matrix to this point, and
> what I know
> about computers in general, is that the major quanta limit would
> be overal
> bandwidth, rather than the cpu power of the Deck or Host in question. Of
> course, then that once again raises the nasty question of how do UV hosts
> look so real, doesnt it?

At this point, I'm going to assume enough bandwidth is available, so the
actual host processing power is what defines the quality of the experience.

Let's see:

Bandwidth Host/Client: not a problem, unless you're decking through a sat
uplink

Client: enough processing power in the current crop of cyberdecks

Bandwidth Client/Decker: the rating of a datajack is used only for I/O
operations, I understand that these are partially unrelated to visualization
that, we can assume, is good enough in any circumstance. Trode nets and
other VR rigs don't have enough I/O bandwidth, but they will probably grant
the same degree of "visualization" as a datajack. The main limitation of
not-DNI is interaction speed, it seems

Host: here is where the actual difference comes in term of quality

Note: this discussion is quite interesting, and helps me to better
understand how the matrix is supposed to work in SR :)

-Paolo
Message no. 17
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:54:07 EDT
In a message dated 10/9/99 12:25:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
thatpaolo@****.com writes:

> Host: here is where the actual difference comes in term of quality
>
> Note: this discussion is quite interesting, and helps me to better
> understand how the matrix is supposed to work in SR :)

I would have to agree on that very last point, but not on the where is the
bottleneck part. It really seems to me that given the huge jumps in
processing described in SR to date would indicate that processors run so fast
as to give even a level 1 host enough "quantic' resolution as to fool the
brain into thinking it was in an analouge environment rather than a digital
one.

But going back to the at what point is the bottleneck discussion again, here
are some considerations for why I say its bandwidth.

!) yes the'trix as defined can carry much more data than the present day Net.
However, by the same token, there is a lot of bandwidth being used out
there, and not all by deckers. Aside from the legite users, there are also
the packets for information exchange between hosts as well. A single Fibre
optical line may be able to carry a up to a Gigapulse a second, maybe, but
unless your logged into a host directly, nt all that gigapulse per second is
going in delivering data to you!

2) it would also explain why using the correct reality filter gives the
bonuses it does. because the Reality filter has the basic coding for 90% of
the objects, the only time the host has to send the "data block" describing
how a particular piece of code looks is when it is dealing with none stanard
events. This is why having one in a sculpted system giuves you those beifits
because it doesnt have to send all that info...
Message no. 18
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 10:55:26 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Starrngr@***.com."
] Given what has been written about the matrix to this point, and what I know
] about computers in general, is that the major quanta limit would be overal
] bandwidth, rather than the cpu power of the Deck or Host in question. Of
] course, then that once again raises the nasty question of how do UV hosts
] look so real, doesnt it?

Hmmm. I'll admit my computer knowledge is disgustingly slim, and my
knowledge of quantum mechanics equally meagre. This has, therefore,
been a really, really informative thread for me. I thought I'd chuck
my two cents in on the subject of UV hosts though, as they don't
involve either of the above sciences.
What if the UV host phenomenon is a result of "Magic in the Machine,"
that is, a sort of paranormal Matrix host? Think of the host as
normal, but the decker is affected by a powerful Illusion spell effect
that uses his own brain power to generate the realism involved in the
UV host. I know some folks like to keep their Magic and Matrix on
seperate plates, but it's a natural connection, and one that has
already been proposed by the whole Deep Resonance thing.
Or
What if the UV host is actually stimulating (or just using) the
decker's brain in a different manner than the other hosts. Normal
hosts give info to the decker's brain, and it interprets it. What if
the UV host gives info to the decker's brain as normal, but it's a
series of open-ended questions...(I'm not sure I'm getting my idea
across, an example might be in order).
Normal host: You see a black house, paint peeling, Gothic style, bats
flitting around, moon to the top right, covered in clouds.
UV host: You see a haunted house (gets info from decker's brain on
their concepetion of haunted house).
This raises its own problems related to how people see different
things, but it's something to extrapolate from, I think.

Anyway, chew on those, please. I could use the input.

-Boondocker
Message no. 19
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 11:50:02 EDT
In a message dated 10/9/1999 12:16:13 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
thatpaolo@****.com writes:

>
> Of course, we're entering a totally different realm here... what sense does
> a decker use to "see" the matrix? Not sight, of course, so we're not
limited
> by the slow retinal responses... maybe the clock of the ASIST interface is
> the quantic limit.

Paolo, folks, I do believe, with all kinds of certainty, that you are leaving
the arena of the Matrix, and Shadowrun, far behind on this topic. Simsense
doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with this "Quantum Mechanic"
in such a higher order sense. Sure, AI theory (and UV theory as well)
probably does. But Matrix Theory in the sense that it exists now does not.

Maybe if you guys can come up with something that a layman can understand,
follow, and grasp; you can write it up and get it ready for a submission into
"The Matrix" supplement coming out next year.

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/intro.htm]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 20
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 20:00:54 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:12 AM 10/9/99 -0400, Starrngr@***.com wrote:
:Interesting question indeed, Paolo. I for one always assumed that
:what the Asist did was to create the same "inputs" that your normal
:meat "sensors" do... Of course, then that raises another sticky
:issue, since we then have to figure out just how it is that a
:Datajack can plug into those sensory nerves with little essance loss
: as compared to other headware.

Low essence cost of a datajack? Well, there is the fact that it's
pretty much the only piece of cyberware ever to be described with
adjectives such as "common" or "ubiquitous". In fact, there are
enough people with datajacks implanted, that it's the one piece of
cyberware that's immune to the cyberware social penalties rule. The
impression given by FASA is that there is that the datajack has a
much wider userbase than any other piece of cyberware.

Datajacks have also been around since the time of Echo Mirage, before
the Crash of '29. While it's unclear when most other cyberware came
about, there are definitely some pieces of headware that would have
to post-date the datajack (headware memory is somewhat useless
without an input/output device, right?).

Given the facts that the datajack's been around a while, an that the
datajack is really the only piece of cyber that could be considered
'mass-market' it's bound to be somewhat ahead of the pack
technologically, when compared to other cyberware. It's cheap
essence-wise, because there's just so much more research and
development behind it.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 21
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 23:59:31 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Starrngr@***.com."
] Given what has been written about the matrix to this point, and what I know
] about computers in general, is that the major quanta limit would be overal
] bandwidth, rather than the cpu power of the Deck or Host in question. Of
] course, then that once again raises the nasty question of how do UV hosts
] look so real, doesnt it?

Hmmm. I'll admit my computer knowledge is disgustingly slim, and my
knowledge of quantum mechanics equally meagre. This has, therefore,
been a really, really informative thread for me. I thought I'd chuck
my two cents in on the subject of UV hosts though, as they don't
involve either of the above sciences.
What if the UV host phenomenon is a result of "Magic in the Machine,"
that is, a sort of paranormal Matrix host? Think of the host as
normal, but the decker is affected by a powerful Illusion spell effect
that uses his own brain power to generate the realism involved in the
UV host. I know some folks like to keep their Magic and Matrix on
seperate plates, but it's a natural connection, and one that has
already been proposed by the whole Deep Resonance thing.
Or
What if the UV host is actually stimulating (or just using) the
decker's brain in a different manner than the other hosts. Normal
hosts give info to the decker's brain, and it interprets it. What if
the UV host gives info to the decker's brain as normal, but it's a
series of open-ended questions...(I'm not sure I'm getting my idea
across, an example might be in order).
Normal host: You see a black house, paint peeling, Gothic style, bats
flitting around, moon to the top right, covered in clouds.
UV host: You see a haunted house (gets info from decker's brain on
their concepetion of haunted house).
This raises its own problems related to how people see different
things, but it's something to extrapolate from, I think.

Anyway, chew on those, please. I could use the input.

-Boondocker
Message no. 22
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:08:52 -0400
> Note: this discussion is quite interesting, and helps me to better
> understand how the matrix is supposed to work in SR :)

I bet Scot Adams never envisioned his comment would lead to this.

Anyway, one thing to point out: saying that something is quantized, does
_not_ mean that it has anything to with the branch of physics called quantum
mechanics. All it means is that something happens in discrete, indivisible
units (of time, space, pixels, or anything else).

Wordman
Message no. 23
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:08:54 -0400
> It really seems to me that given the huge jumps in
> processing described in SR to date would indicate that processors
> run so fast as to give even a level 1 host enough "quantic'
> resolution as to fool the brain into thinking it was in an analogue
> environment rather than a digital one.

I'd say this is exactly correct. Actually, most things involving computers
do this already. CD music sounds analog. Laser printer output looks analog.

> But going back to the at what point is the bottleneck discussion
> again, here are some considerations for why I say its bandwidth.

This is probably the case. Even if you assume everything is as fast as
possible (i.e. speed of light), the transmission of data across distance
will always take longer than anything else. In such cases, the speed of the
system would then be determined by how wide your pipe was.

Still the only way to say for sure how it works in the Matrix is to decide
how the Matrix works. For example, what does the work of imaging into the
brain, the deck or the host? FASA hasn't said either way, but it does have a
direct impact on the discussion.

> 2) it would also explain why using the correct reality filter gives the
> bonuses it does.

I like the logic, but don't think it explains it. If this were the case, the
reality filter would give a much bigger bonus than it does. I like the FASA
explanation better: the reality filter creates a philologically more
comfortable experience, which speeds reflexes slightly.

Wordman
Message no. 24
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:08:58 -0400
> > Holodeck. Holograms and force fields. If that's not a virtual reality, I
> > don't know one that is :)
>
> Ahhh. But Star Trek style holograms have substance. They are real,
> if only temporarily. True virtual reality has no substance and exists
> only "within the minds of the viewers".

But if your only interaction with reality is your own senses, how can you
tell if your senses are being fed "real: or "virtual" information?

Going down this path to far gets a little scary. Once you start asking
questions like "what is real?" and "what does it mean to know
something?",
you are never the same again.

Wordman
Message no. 25
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 01:49:08 -0700
On Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:08:54 -0400 "Wordman" <wordman@*******.com>
writes:
<SNIP>
> > 2) it would also explain why using the correct reality filter gives
the
> > bonuses it does.

> I like the logic, but don't think it explains it. If this were the
case, the
> reality filter would give a much bigger bonus than it does. I like the
FASA
> explanation better: the reality filter creates a philologically more
> comfortable experience, which speeds reflexes slightly.

It could be that the resources saved by having a sculpted system and the
matching Reality Filter are less than phenomenal. Perhaps the download
speed makes the sculpted system and reality filter a worthy expense only
for systems with heavy traffic from regular users. (Iow, a public access
node will almost never have a sculpted system other than for aesthetic
reasons.)

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

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Message no. 26
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 07:23:19 EDT
In a message dated 10/9/99 9:41:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
wordman@*******.com writes:

> Still the only way to say for sure how it works in the Matrix is to decide
> how the Matrix works. For example, what does the work of imaging into the
> brain, the deck or the host? FASA hasn't said either way, but it does have
a
> direct impact on the discussion.

Actually, they have, you just have to put the pieces together a bit. The two
key pieces are in how they describe the ASIST circuits, specificaly "THe
asist interface component controls the simsense experiance of cyberspace and
the deckers DNI connection to the matix, as routed through the interperative
software coded into the MPCP" (VR2.0, PG 85) Add to this the info on page
202 of BBB3, it becomes pretty clear that at least under the present DLOH the
deck is what does most of the image processing work. This is also why Otaku
still have to purchase that ASIST headware... its what does the translation
of the info into "sensory" terms.

This also seems to me to strengthen my argument about why bandwidth is the
key factor... you have not only a two way data stream between your persona's
location and the jackpoint (Where your deck and meat are) but the same sort
of two way stream applys to EVERYONE on the net! Add to this the fact that
hosts are there to do work, which rather mans that most companies dont add
them till they have a ecent number of people all communicating at once...
which means that any host is going to have a decent number of people logged
in at all times, otherwise ther really isnt much point in spending the money
on it.

Speaking of hosts though, I had a thought about the old host cost discussion
of a week or so ago. We know that a host is 5my per level, and I would
assume (I asked FasaMike but he hasnt answered back) that represents the
overall level of the host. Looking at the stats int the back of VR2.0 seems
to indicate that the max rating for any individual subsystem would be twice
the host's base level. A higher overall security level would show as a
mulitle of that cost, with green being a 1x and red being a 4x. Individual
system ratings tend to be no more than 2x the base level of the hostand you
have about 6x times the host's level to apply to said ratings. IC would be
purchased separatly, and for a player (assumign they ever had that sort of
money) your host has to have a level equal to at least 1/2 the raing of the
IC it runs (IE a level 4 host couldnt support an IC with a rating greater
than 8)
Message no. 27
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 07:23:18 EDT
In a message dated 10/9/99 8:02:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:

> What if the UV host is actually stimulating (or just using) the
> decker's brain in a different manner than the other hosts. Normal
> hosts give info to the decker's brain, and it interprets it. What if
> the UV host gives info to the decker's brain as normal, but it's a
> series of open-ended questions...(I'm not sure I'm getting my idea
> across, an example might be in order).

Hmmm. Ive been chewing and chewing on this one and I'm still not sure what
to think of it. I do like This "The host feeds you images based on your
perecptions" theory, but it still has the problem of everyone at the same
point in the UV host should be seeing the same thing....
Message no. 28
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 11:01:02 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:08 AM 10/10/99 -0400, Wordman wrote:
:But if your only interaction with reality is your own senses, how
:can you tell if your senses are being fed "real: or "virtual"
:information?
:
:Going down this path to far gets a little scary. Once you start
:asking questions like "what is real?" and "what does it mean to know
: something?", you are never the same again.

A wonderful example of this is "Bomb #20" from the movie Dark Star
(John Carpenter's & Dan O'Bannon's freshman feature film effort,
expanded from a Film School short).

Bomb #20 certainly never was the same again.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 29
From: Raije murk@****.org.au
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 16:50:32 +1000
> I know some folks like to keep their Magic and Matrix on
> seperate plates, but it's a natural connection, and one that has
> already been proposed by the whole Deep Resonance thing.

Might be a bit off topic, but how do oyu guys see Otaku? My ggroup says
that their soul leaves their body astral-projection style, and enters the
matrix. Realistically, Otaku are the machine-awakened...

Talking about being awakened...I wonder if anybody will find out what the
appendix does. Nobody knows what it does now, but heaps of people guess...I
wonder if it has any effect on magic or awakening?

_____________________sabrepunk@**********.net_
Raije
sabrepunk@**********.net
UIN-2799894
~Simple Guide to Cyberpunk~
http://gateway.to/cyberpunk/
"Shit Happens, So Carry Toilet Paper"
Message no. 30
From: Raije murk@****.org.au
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 16:03:20 +1000
on the topic of finding out how the brain works and the machine-brain
interfaces, I spose that you hard about those corps that actually made one?

It was a couple of months ago now, and wasn't highly publicised here in Aus,
but they implanted a chip in a disabled volunteer's brain, and after some
training he was able to manipulate a computer. Just simple things like type
and stuff, but it was there nonetheless. They had to remove the chip after
awhile though because his body started rejecting it.

One step closer to doom, eh? Unless your a technofetishist that is.

_____________________sabrepunk@**********.net_
Raije
sabrepunk@**********.net
UIN-2799894
~Simple Guide to Cyberpunk~
http://gateway.to/cyberpunk/
"Shit Happens, So Carry Toilet Paper"

----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Pelletier (Trinity) <fpelletier@******.usherb.ca>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 1999 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: The quantum Matrix


> Richard Tomasso <rtomasso@*******.com>
>
> > I think you're referring to the eye "capture rate" of about 24
frames/sec.
> > The brain's normal state of consciousness has a wavelength of 12-15 Hz,
> > on one of those fancy machines. But the brain is capable of processing
> massive
> > amounts of information very quickly. If it does have a clock rate, it's
> more
> > than compensated for by parallel processing.
> >
> > Then again, if you believe the Hologram Theory of how the brain works,
the
> > infinite possibility thing is more plausible.
> >
>
> Bringing this back to SR, don't you think that in 2050, well, actually,
> starting with the first cyberdecks in the 2020s, scientists have found how
> the brain actually works? I mean, with the different machine-brain
> interfaces available in SR, they couldn't possibly do it by throwing
signals
> and specific neurons and hope for the best. They had to know how the
whole
> brain works, how it reacts, then convert normal electronic data to
whatever
> system the brain uses. So is a datajack nothing more than a converter,
> crossing that gap between the brain and raw data? And if it is so, don't
> you think SR's world would've made infinitly more progress in organic
> computers and neural networks? Just a question...
>
> Trinity
> ---------------------------------------------
> Frank Pelletier
> fpelletier@******.usherb.ca
> "Let them hate me, provided they fear me" - Atreus
>
> Trinity- on the Undernet and EFNet
>
>
>
Message no. 31
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 13:28:21 -0700
On Sun, 10 Oct 1999 07:23:18 EDT Starrngr@***.com writes:
> In a message dated 10/9/99 8:02:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:
>
> > What if the UV host is actually stimulating (or just using) the
> > decker's brain in a different manner than the other hosts.

> Hmmm. Ive been chewing and chewing on this one and I'm still not sure
what
> to think of it. I do like This "The host feeds you images based on
your
> perecptions" theory, but it still has the problem of everyone at the
same
> point in the UV host should be seeing the same thing....

I don't really see that as a problem ... however, what I do see as a
problem is that this theory would mean that the UV host is not more
powerful or even less powerful than Red Hosts ... Hmmm ... as described
in VR2.0, UVs are basicly virtual machines. As such they CAN'T be more
powerful than the hosts they are drawing resources from. Therefore, in
my game, there will be UV hardware and UV software. UV hardware is the
top of the line hardware that a UV system would need to run. UV software
is a host (usually Red) that "evovled" into a UV node. Most UV servers
are running Red nodes in hopes that they will evovle. ("Oh look! The
Charmander Node is evolving!")

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 32
From: Wildfire Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 21:26:01 -0400
Paul Gettle wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> At 12:08 AM 10/10/99 -0400, Wordman wrote:
> :But if your only interaction with reality is your own senses, how
> :can you tell if your senses are being fed "real: or "virtual"
> :information?
> :
> :Going down this path to far gets a little scary. Once you start
> :asking questions like "what is real?" and "what does it mean to know
> : something?", you are never the same again.
>
> A wonderful example of this is "Bomb #20" from the movie Dark Star
> (John Carpenter's & Dan O'Bannon's freshman feature film effort,
> expanded from a Film School short).
>
> Bomb #20 certainly never was the same again.
>

Dark Star! "Let there be light..." hehe...

Wildfire

__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Message no. 33
From: _HeX_ gyro@********.co.za
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 09:32:19 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Starrngr@***.com <Starrngr@***.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 10 October 1999 01:47
Subject: Re: The quantum Matrix


>In a message dated 10/9/99 8:02:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:
>
>> What if the UV host is actually stimulating (or just using) the
>> decker's brain in a different manner than the other hosts. Normal
>> hosts give info to the decker's brain, and it interprets it. What
if
>> the UV host gives info to the decker's brain as normal, but it's a
>> series of open-ended questions...(I'm not sure I'm getting my idea
>> across, an example might be in order).
>
>Hmmm. Ive been chewing and chewing on this one and I'm still not
sure what
>to think of it. I do like This "The host feeds you images based on
your
>perecptions" theory, but it still has the problem of everyone at the
same
>point in the UV host should be seeing the same thing....

They will be seeing the same virtual objuect. but with different
details to it that are
basically irrelevant to the funtionality of the system. What it does
is just offer a "personal"
experience of the system instead. I like the idea Scott.

- + - HeX
<hex@*************.com>

RULE NO 1
DONT GET CAUGHT
Message no. 34
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:46:57 EDT
In a message dated 10/11/1999 7:11:48 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
murk@****.org.au writes:

> Might be a bit off topic, but how do oyu guys see Otaku? My ggroup says
> that their soul leaves their body astral-projection style, and enters the
> matrix. Realistically, Otaku are the machine-awakened...

Me personally, I am long-sinced of the state-of-mind that questions like this
are sometimes best left described as "just are". Several of my players' are
probably of the reference of a "projection-like" effect. One of them, who
does actually have an Otaku PC, still thinks that when he retires the
character he wants the character to "die" while connected to the Open Matrix
and become a "Ghost in the Machine", just to screw with future PC's heads'...
;-P

> Talking about being awakened...I wonder if anybody will find out what the
> appendix does. Nobody knows what it does now, but heaps of people
guess...I
> wonder if it has any effect on magic or awakening?

Why sure I do. Its' part of a Magical Potion requirement that leaves its'
imbiber so utterly confused as to sit in contemplation of his own navel for
DAYS!!!!

-K
Message no. 35
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 19:57:42 +0200
According to Raije, at 16:50 on 10 Oct 99, the word on
the street was...

> Might be a bit off topic, but how do oyu guys see Otaku? My ggroup says
> that their soul leaves their body astral-projection style, and enters the
> matrix. Realistically, Otaku are the machine-awakened...

I see them as people who know intimately how to work the Matrix -- they've
figured out a way to give computer systems commands without the need for a
cyberdeck to act as a translator, and that's more or less it. They
certainly aren't magically active, else they would have to spend a
priority on that, wouldn't they?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I would have it all if I'd only have this much
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 36
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 15:27:54 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Gurth."
] > Might be a bit off topic, but how do oyu guys see Otaku? My ggroup says
] > that their soul leaves their body astral-projection style, and enters the
] > matrix. Realistically, Otaku are the machine-awakened...
]
] I see them as people who know intimately how to work the Matrix -- they've
] figured out a way to give computer systems commands without the need for a
] cyberdeck to act as a translator, and that's more or less it. They
] certainly aren't magically active, else they would have to spend a
] priority on that, wouldn't they?

Well, they kinda _did_ spend a priority on that, to become Otaku.
And no, they aren't magically active in the SR Rules sense of the word,
but if you subscribe to the theory that what people in 2060 know about
magic could fit on the head of a pin (and still leave room for a couple
angels to boogie down), then you might allow that their ability might
be magical in nature.
Not that I'm saying that This Is The Way It Is, but it's a
possibility.

-Boondocker
Message no. 37
From: Raije murk@****.org.au
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:54:05 +1000
Well damn, and here I was thinking that it was useless!

> > Talking about being awakened...I wonder if anybody will find out what
the
> > appendix does. Nobody knows what it does now, but heaps of people
> guess...I
> > wonder if it has any effect on magic or awakening?
>
> Why sure I do. Its' part of a Magical Potion requirement that leaves
its'
> imbiber so utterly confused as to sit in contemplation of his own navel
for
> DAYS!!!!
>
> -K
>
>
Message no. 38
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 04:21:14 EDT
In a message dated 10/11/99 10:56:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

> I see them as people who know intimately how to work the Matrix -- they've
> figured out a way to give computer systems commands without the need for a
> cyberdeck to act as a translator, and that's more or less it. They
> certainly aren't magically active, else they would have to spend a
> priority on that, wouldn't they?

but the effectivly DO, Gurth!. They have to spend their A on resources, but
dont get the 1mil for doing so the way an ordinary decker would. No
different than a regular mage having to put his A into magic, worse really,
since if you make a human he can then put his B into resources and have a lot
of spells and other stuff at his disposal (400K is a lot when you dont by a
good deck or hot Cyber)

Reguardless of that fact, I would tend to agree with Gurth. I wouldn't
consider them "Machine Awakened" either... theiy are young kids how have been
changed by something deep in the matrix alright... something that makes them
even more effective than a comperably skilled decker with a hot deck. I
wouldnt say they are the mages of the net by any means though, nor do I agree
with the theorem that their getting into the net is their equivalent of
Astral projection. For one, their abilities dont degrade if they loose
essance, a big differance from 'true' awakend types.

I personally see them as people who have become so in tune with the matrix
that they instictivly think just like a program would. This also explains
why one becomes Otaku by a certain age or they never do... by that point
their brain has become locked into certain patterns and is no longer capable
of learning the whatever it is that makes them Otaku.
Message no. 39
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:29:02 -0400
> > It really seems to me that given the huge jumps in
> > processing described in SR to date would indicate that processors
> > run so fast as to give even a level 1 host enough "quantic'
> > resolution as to fool the brain into thinking it was in an analogue
> > environment rather than a digital one.
>
> I'd say this is exactly correct. Actually, most things involving computers
> do this already. CD music sounds analog. Laser printer output looks
analog.

Neither of those are true. It _is_ true that most people cannot tell, at
very high resolutions, that laser printing or CD music is not analog, but
even at the very highest resolutions available today, there is a difference.
Even the highest resolution laser printout is made of discernable pixels,
and god knows CDs don't sound analog to audiophiles. [Which is why I still
own a turntable. Sure, at the low cost point, CDs sound better, but at the
high end, nothing is more irritating that listening to the quantization
noise and "stuttering" of a CD.]

Yes, yes, I know, I'm nitpicking, but there are important links to SR here,
as well. At what resolution does a Matrix host feel real to _your_
character? Is that one of the reasons to otaku feel so natural in the
Matrix? After all, they wouldn't feel so keenly the difference between real
life and the Matrix. As far as they're concerned, the quanitization of
reality is its "normal" state.
Message no. 40
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:40:05 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, abortion_engine wrote:

> Neither of those are true. It _is_ true that most people cannot tell, at
> very high resolutions, that laser printing or CD music is not analog, but
> even at the very highest resolutions available today, there is a difference.
> Even the highest resolution laser printout is made of discernable pixels,
> and god knows CDs don't sound analog to audiophiles. [Which is why I still
> own a turntable. Sure, at the low cost point, CDs sound better, but at the
> high end, nothing is more irritating that listening to the quantization
> noise and "stuttering" of a CD.]

Sorry, AE, but in a sense there's no such thing as an analog
turntable. There's empty space between vinyl molecules. Hence, think of
it as digital with a sampling rate proportional to the size of the
molecules of vinyl and you'll see what I'm getting at. Nitpicky, yes.
But true. :)

Marc
Message no. 41
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:52:39 -0400
> > Ahhh. But Star Trek style holograms have substance. They are real,
> > if only temporarily. True virtual reality has no substance and exists
> > only "within the minds of the viewers".
>
Does that mean this e-mail isn't real, as it "has no substance?"
Message no. 42
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:17:22 -0400
> > Neither of those are true. It _is_ true that most people cannot tell, at
> > very high resolutions, that laser printing or CD music is not analog,
but
> > even at the very highest resolutions available today, there is a
difference.
> > Even the highest resolution laser printout is made of discernable
pixels,
> > and god knows CDs don't sound analog to audiophiles. [Which is why I
still
> > own a turntable. Sure, at the low cost point, CDs sound better, but at
the
> > high end, nothing is more irritating that listening to the quantization
> > noise and "stuttering" of a CD.]
>
> Sorry, AE, but in a sense there's no such thing as an analog
> turntable. There's empty space between vinyl molecules. Hence, think of
> it as digital with a sampling rate proportional to the size of the
> molecules of vinyl and you'll see what I'm getting at. Nitpicky, yes.
> But true. :)
>
However, this tracking limitation is smaller than the difference that can be
heard by the human ear [even mine. :) ], since we can only hear from about
20-20,000 cycles per second, or hertz [Hz]. The rate at which the
needle--which really isn't effected significantly by objects of a molecular
size in any case--would pass over molecule-sized gaps would be far to fast
for us to hear. So, although it's quantized--all matter is--it is quantized
at a small enough size that we can't tell when listening, unlike those pesky
CDs. [Which I, of course, still own; I do, after all, own a car.]

An excellent point, nonetheless.
Message no. 43
From: Fanguad fanguad@****.rit.edu
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 17:03:13 -0400
> > However, if the rocket is
> > defines as, say, a bunch of Bezier surfaces (I think Quake 3 will
> > support this), then what you have is exact to whatever precision you
> > want.
>
> Oo! This is a _great_ example of what I said before about computers having
> different quantized limits at different times and for different reasons.
> "Whatever precision you want", does _not_ mean "non-quantized".
Once you
> pick a precision, you have _defined_ the resolution of the quantization.

I just thought of a possibly relevant example. I have been using
a math program (doesn't really matter which one, most do it),
which has the capability to recognize when something is outside of
it's precision range. When this happens, the computer expresses
it differently. Ex. .333333333 is very accurate, but not correct.
1/3 is correct, but can't be stored in the same method as the
decimal approximation.
What if UV hosts did this sort of operation. This is kind of like
a mix between the WYTISYG UV theory (haunted house), and the
really high accuracy theory.
What if the UV calculated an object, but let the brain to the
computations. As an example, the UV host would define the
corners of a box, and give that info to the brain. The brain then
constructs an image of a box. A normal host would define where
the box is, up to it's level of resolution, then let the decker interact
with that. This would allow the UV host to say, define a grain of
sand, then only have to deal with keeping track of it, as opposed to
a normal host which would have to keep track of it, and what each
piece looks like.

-Fanguad
-------------------------
Modern programming is a race between programmers
striving to create bigger and better idiot-proof
programs, and the Universe trying to create bigger
and better idiots.

So far, the Universe is winning.
Message no. 44
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 15:22:02 -0500
:] > Might be a bit off topic, but how do oyu guys see Otaku? My ggroup
says
:] > that their soul leaves their body astral-projection style, and enters
the
:] > matrix. Realistically, Otaku are the machine-awakened...
:]
:] I see them as people who know intimately how to work the Matrix --
they've
:] figured out a way to give computer systems commands without the need for
a
:] cyberdeck to act as a translator, and that's more or less it. They
:] certainly aren't magically active, else they would have to spend a
:] priority on that, wouldn't they?


They do pay extra for their abilities in character creation, but I'm
with Gurth; its best not to consider it magical, even if the cause is not
entirely mundane.
The mechanics of Otaku powers are unique, and don't share some
properties common to all magic use. They don't loose abitlies with essence
(or in any other way you loose magic), and they can stay in the matrix as
long as they care to (whereas astral projection is limited by essence).
Otaku can still "deck" using thier Otaku powers if they (or the computers
they "visit") are in space, or in an earthbound Mana-void. I think that
pretty clearly demonstrates the it is NOT magic, in the sense brought about
by the Awakening of 2011.

Mongoose
"No, its still not out"
Message no. 45
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:50:44 -0500
:> to think of it. I do like This "The host feeds you images based on
:your
:> perecptions" theory, but it still has the problem of everyone at the
:same
:> point in the UV host should be seeing the same thing....
:
:I don't really see that as a problem ... however, what I do see as a
:problem is that this theory would mean that the UV host is not more
:powerful or even less powerful than Red Hosts

If I get the theory right, the host is reaching into the deckers mind to
create perceptions. That would CERTAINLY make it more powerful,
defensively...

:... Hmmm ... as described
:in VR2.0, UVs are basicly virtual machines. As such they CAN'T be more
:powerful than the hosts they are drawing resources from. Therefore, in
:my game, there will be UV hardware and UV software. UV hardware is the
:top of the line hardware that a UV system would need to run. UV software
:is a host (usually Red) that "evovled" into a UV node. Most UV servers
:are running Red nodes in hopes that they will evovle. ("Oh look! The
:Charmander Node is evolving!")

UV hosts are (afaik) still "just a rumour", or at the very least an
"poorly documented phenominon". No person or corporation has ever created a
UV host, AFAIK. In fact, it seems likely that a UV host requires programs
created by an AI and uses matrix hardware in ways nobody except an AI can
understand.

Mongoose

+++NO, Man and Machine is NOT yet printed.+++
Message no. 46
From: Raije murk@****.org.au
Subject: The quantum Matrix
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 18:44:32 +1000
> I personally see them as people who have become so in tune with the matrix
> that they instictivly think just like a program would. This also
explains
> why one becomes Otaku by a certain age or they never do... by that point
> their brain has become locked into certain patterns and is no longer
capable
> of learning the whatever it is that makes them Otaku.
>
>

If you've ever read 'Psychotrope', then you'll know that oldies can become
otaku. Three or so did during the course of the novel (one of them jacked
out and his deck was slag...).

How many people have read Psychotrope? Any good decker should read it...ooh
its good stuff. One of the main characters is a Ghoul. Yeehaw. If anybody
plays an Otaku, I suggest you read it, its a requirement for our group
(which is why I'm the only otaku...)!

_____________________sabrepunk@**********.net_
Raije
sabrepunk@**********.net
UIN-2799894
~Simple Guide to Cyberpunk~
http://gateway.to/cyberpunk/
"Shit Happens, So Carry Toilet Paper"

Further Reading

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Thwap!