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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: The Question
Date: Fri Aug 3 13:25:02 2001
I've just started into the list but I have one thing that makes me wonder.

If this is a SR list why are we discussind ED? are the game systems very
similar or what? can I use ED stuff to steal game mechanics for SR or is it
just a coincidence that they happen to have a few things in common so I'm
seeing lots of messages about that area?

I'm not trying to be an ass or anything else this is a genuinely sincere
question. I'm asking cause I don't know and I've always been told the only
stupid question is the question left unasked.


Derek
(aka. Triggerless)
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: The Question
Date: Fri Aug 3 15:05:02 2001
At 12:32 PM 8/3/2001 -0500, Derek Hyde wrote:
>I've just started into the list but I have one thing that makes me wonder.
>
>If this is a SR list why are we discussind ED? are the game systems very
>similar or what? can I use ED stuff to steal game mechanics for SR or is it
>just a coincidence that they happen to have a few things in common so I'm
>seeing lots of messages about that area?
>
>I'm not trying to be an ass or anything else this is a genuinely sincere
>question. I'm asking cause I don't know and I've always been told the only
>stupid question is the question left unasked.

Ask away :)

ED is often discussed because the worlds of ED and Shadowrun are
related. The civilization of ED existed around 16,000-22,000 BC in the
Shadowrun universe (I think I have those dates right, if not someone will
correct me :)).

Shadowrun takes place in the beginning of the 6th world, where as ED takes
place towards the end of the 4th world, with the 5th world being the
non-magical history of civilization as we know it.

Some of the major players in ED are alive and kicking in Shadowrun (under
different names). And the immortal elves (Harlequin) are from ED's 4th world.

All this means that the Horrors that were fading in power in the ED
universe (ED is in the decline of the 4th age of magic), will make a
comeback in Shadowrun (which is in the rise of the 6th age of magic).

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Joshua Mun)
Subject: The Question
Date: Fri Aug 3 20:30:03 2001
Derek Hyde wrote:
>
> I've just started into the list but I have one thing that makes me wonder.
>
> If this is a SR list why are we discussind ED? are the game systems very
> similar or what? can I use ED stuff to steal game mechanics for SR or is it
> just a coincidence that they happen to have a few things in common so I'm
> seeing lots of messages about that area?
>
> I'm not trying to be an ass or anything else this is a genuinely sincere
> question. I'm asking cause I don't know and I've always been told the only
> stupid question is the question left unasked.
>
> Derek
> (aka. Triggerless)

Earthdawn and Shadowrun are set in the same universe. Earthdawn is set
at the end 4th world as described by the aztec calendar, when magic is
declining. Shadowrun is set in the Sixth world. Magic is once again on
the upswing. It is commonly held on the list that many of the dragons
from ED are the same as the dragons in SR. And since ED is set in the
same universe as shadowrun a create (or maybe not so creative) gm could
transfer races/magical items from ED to SR.
--
--------------------
"...Capitalist success [in the new information economy] is possible only
as long as most of the researchers remain 'communists'."
- Dr. Pekka Himanen (The Hacker Ethic)

"Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life."
- Bertolt Brecht
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: The Question
Date: Mon Aug 6 00:30:03 2001
so pretty much you're saying that cause they are like totally different
timelines on the same planet that they're a good mix?

-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
[mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.com]On Behalf Of Joshua Mun
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 7:37 PM
To: shadowrn@*********.com
Subject: Re: The Question


Derek Hyde wrote:
>
> I've just started into the list but I have one thing that makes me wonder.
>
> If this is a SR list why are we discussind ED? are the game systems very
> similar or what? can I use ED stuff to steal game mechanics for SR or is
it
> just a coincidence that they happen to have a few things in common so I'm
> seeing lots of messages about that area?
>
> I'm not trying to be an ass or anything else this is a genuinely sincere
> question. I'm asking cause I don't know and I've always been told the
only
> stupid question is the question left unasked.
>
> Derek
> (aka. Triggerless)

Earthdawn and Shadowrun are set in the same universe. Earthdawn is set
at the end 4th world as described by the aztec calendar, when magic is
declining. Shadowrun is set in the Sixth world. Magic is once again on
the upswing. It is commonly held on the list that many of the dragons
from ED are the same as the dragons in SR. And since ED is set in the
same universe as shadowrun a create (or maybe not so creative) gm could
transfer races/magical items from ED to SR.
--
--------------------
"...Capitalist success [in the new information economy] is possible only
as long as most of the researchers remain 'communists'."
- Dr. Pekka Himanen (The Hacker Ethic)

"Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life."
- Bertolt Brecht
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Smith)
Subject: The Question
Date: Mon Aug 6 00:45:02 2001
<snippety-snip-snip>
>so pretty much you're saying that cause they are like
>totally different timelines on the same planet that they're a
>good mix?

Actually, they're not different timelines at all.

ED takes place some 12,000 or so (possibly more) years before SR.

According to the Mayan calendar the ages of man are divided up into
"worlds..." The dawn of time would be the first... The first influx of
magic ould be the second... When it ebbed away again, that was the third...
The 4th is the time of Earthdawn, when magic returns the first time, and
what we would consider contemporary history would the be the fifth.

Shadowrun (even in it's own canon) is often referred to as the 6th world,
since it's the third age of magic, and therefore the 6th "world" of the
mayan calendar.

ED isn't a seperate universe... it's just the distant history of Shadowrun.
Many of the dragons and other unusually long-lived creatures of Earthdawn
are the same ones found behind the scenes or in the public eye in Shadowrun,
and the threats that had access to Earth before will doubtless find their
way back when the mana count reaches appropriate levels.

That's a really long way of saying: "It's the same timeline, just vastly
seperated periods of that timeline." ;-)

Not all things are compatable, simply out of respect for game balance, but
they are oftena good source for inspiration, ideas, etc.

Enjoy.

Lepper.
seutekh@*******.com (period)
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: The Question
Date: Mon Aug 6 09:00:03 2001
right right that's what I'm saying.....so.....if I make a game based on
reality then mixing stuff from caveman times works with modern day stuff?
(I'm just trying to figure out why everyone's trying to mix stuff from two
TOTALLY different times. granted there's a few similarities such as dragons
and the fact that there's magic but is that good enough reason to start
importing stuff from another game? most of my players like shadowrun cause
it's more plausable than any of the other RPG's for a couple reason...I
limit magic on the players and the story line to it makes the appearance of
some magic believable. I was referred to the list cause there's usually a
lot of good info on here for GM's and players alike but I just don't see how
this is at all relevant unless your players like a magic rich game in which
I ask have they ever tried Alternity? it was TSR's miserably failed attempt
to make a furturesque game that was basically cyberized dungeons and
dragons....we all trade in our swords and maces and bows for rifles,
pistols, and machineguns...spellcasters are the same if not more powerful
and psionicists are even happier...this system failed cause it was TOO
widespread on the timeline bases (i.e. you could end up crashing on any
planet and it could have any kind of technology from regular D&D time to so
far advanced that fusion was a thing of the past) both that and spelljammer
for dungeons and dragons should have shown us all that mixing things from
different timelines doesn't work at all.

sorry for my ranting and raving it just seems that I get about 25 messages a
day based on ED stuff and I see no valid reason whatsoever for mixing it
with SR stuff...perhaps if you had a history buff then it'd be something to
add in there as knowledge but that's about it...

Derek

-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
[mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.com]On Behalf Of John Smith
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 1:49 AM
To: shadowrn@*********.com
Subject: Re: The Question


<snippety-snip-snip>
>so pretty much you're saying that cause they are like
>totally different timelines on the same planet that they're a
>good mix?

Actually, they're not different timelines at all.

ED takes place some 12,000 or so (possibly more) years before SR.

According to the Mayan calendar the ages of man are divided up into
"worlds..." The dawn of time would be the first... The first influx of
magic ould be the second... When it ebbed away again, that was the third...
The 4th is the time of Earthdawn, when magic returns the first time, and
what we would consider contemporary history would the be the fifth.

Shadowrun (even in it's own canon) is often referred to as the 6th world,
since it's the third age of magic, and therefore the 6th "world" of the
mayan calendar.

ED isn't a seperate universe... it's just the distant history of Shadowrun.
Many of the dragons and other unusually long-lived creatures of Earthdawn
are the same ones found behind the scenes or in the public eye in Shadowrun,
and the threats that had access to Earth before will doubtless find their
way back when the mana count reaches appropriate levels.

That's a really long way of saying: "It's the same timeline, just vastly
seperated periods of that timeline." ;-)

Not all things are compatable, simply out of respect for game balance, but
they are oftena good source for inspiration, ideas, etc.

Enjoy.

Lepper.
seutekh@*******.com (period)
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Smith)
Subject: The Question
Date: Mon Aug 6 13:10:04 2001
<snippety-snip-snip>

>right right that's what I'm saying.....so.....if I make a
>game based on reality then mixing stuff from caveman
>times works with modern day stuff? (I'm just trying to
>figure out why everyone's trying to mix stuff from two
>TOTALLY different times. granted there's a few
>similarities such as dragons and the fact that there's
>magic but is that good enough reason to start importing
>stuff from another game? most of my players like
>shadowrun cause it's more plausable than any of the
>other RPG's for a couple reason...I limit magic on the
>players and the story line to it makes the appearance of
>some magic believable. I was referred to the list cause
>there's usually a lot of good info on here for GM's and
>players alike but I just don't see how this is at all relevant
>unless your players like a magic rich game in which I ask
>have they ever tried Alternity?

> ... this system failed cause it was TOO widespread on
>the timeline bases (i.e. you could end up crashing on any
>planet and it could have any kind of technology from
>regular D&D time to so far advanced that fusion was a
>thing of the past) both that and spelljammer for
>dungeons and dragons should have shown us all that
>mixing things from different timelines doesn't work at all.


*GASP!* someone as longwinded as me??? ^_~

Okay, I think I gotcha this time...

Why bring up the magically active history of a world that is once again
magicvally active? Well... in a normal SR game there are several reasons:

1. (Not So) Fond Memories: Since several of us have speculated that there
are direct correlations with the dragons, and some of the Immortal Elves, (I
hate those little bastards.) and there's prolly a few other things out there
too we haven't noticed yet. Remember, your players/characters should not
remember anything that happened in the 4th world, but these nasties will. I
seriously doubt that every single one of them found out that the 4th world
was drawing to a close and managed to get everything nicely and neatly
wrapped up before they had to take a nap. They'll have unfinished business,
grudges, or just a simple feeling of nostalgia that may make them wish that
"things were as good as they used to be." In a more advanced game, your
characters may very well wind up running for/against these folks, and some
of the events in the ED books can serve to give you a few ideas on what you
might like to do with an SR game where these creatures are involved... Even
if you're not dealing with them directly, these guys are always there, and
usually pulling strings in the background...

Perhaps Lowfyr feels slightly nostalgic about a town from the old days, and
decides that perhaps one of the newest archologies should be in part based
on it's design...

An entire series of runs could come from one of these beings bent on
vengance for something the ancestor of one of your characters did....
Personally I plan on throwing this at a nasty player who's chromed himself
out, has a tendency to be paranoid and rather violent, and insists that he
doesn't have to worry about his family "cuz they're all dead." No warning
for him, and if the rest of the characters (or even he) picks up on it,
finding out the whos and whys could make for a rather intruiging set of
runs.

There's plenty more to do along these lines, these are just a few ideas.

2. Occasional Transfers: Ever lose a pair of socks in the dryer? or a
quarter? even a semi-prized possession? I suspect that this concept of
"losing things" is not particularly new. I could be wrong on this... but
hear me out... hehe.

While it's unlikely that much has survived a 12000 year trip thru the
centuries, there's always something that does it, just to piss someone off.
I'm sure that someone, somewhere in 2050+ is still concerned with
archaeology, and is conducting excavations. They may very well run across
some of the treasures of the past, or even things that were lost on purpose.
While I wouldn't suggest putting anything directly into your players hands,
Remember that if it's worth having, someone else wants it too... which is
where the runners come in.




Basically, it's a way to add a bit more depth to your game... make your
players realize that not everything around them is happening because of
something that happened a few months or even a few years ago. Some people
have much longer memories than others.

On the other hand, as most people have stated before, actually mixing the
systems may not be a good idea for game balance... ED takes place when the
manacount is MUCH higher (or so I figure) and a lot of the things poking
around then just wouldn't be in SR.

In the end, it's completely your choice. Just like house rules, and
alternate timelines, everything else you choose to do (or not do) boils down
to one thing: what you and the rest of your group likes.

Lepper.
seutekh@*******.com (period)
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: The Question
Date: Mon Aug 6 13:50:04 2001
According to Derek Hyde, on Mon, 06 Aug 2001 the word on the street was...

> right right that's what I'm saying.....so.....if I make a game based on
> reality then mixing stuff from caveman times works with modern day stuff?
> (I'm just trying to figure out why everyone's trying to mix stuff from two
> TOTALLY different times. granted there's a few similarities such as dragons
> and the fact that there's magic but is that good enough reason to start
> importing stuff from another game?

Assuming you're referring to Earthdawn, then what you need to keep in mind
is that many of the magical power-players in SR were already around in ED
times, and in fact some appear in that game's setting (Dunkelzahn being an
obvious example, and the "new" SR dragon Ghostwalker is apparently ED's
Icewing). This means that there is a much closer link than just sharing the
world they're set in, if not the actual time.

> most of my players like shadowrun cause it's more plausable than any of
> the other RPG's for a couple reason...

I can't really see how SR is more plausible than some other RPGs out there,
especially ones set in modern times, but then again, I'm not one of your
players ;)

> sorry for my ranting and raving it just seems that I get about 25 messages a
> day based on ED stuff

Well yes, that's because of the new YOTC sourcebook which contains a dragon
that some link to an ED dragon. The natural result of that is discussion of
both the games. As soon as, for example, Target: Awakened Lands comes out,
you'll see plenty of discussion of how the situation in LA impacts the rest
of North America (or some threads like that). I hope.

> and I see no valid reason whatsoever for mixing it with SR
> stuff...perhaps if you had a history buff then it'd be something to add
> in there as knowledge but that's about it...

See above; the connection is closer than it may appear at first, although
it's been moved to the background in the past five years or so. Had Tom
Dowd still been DLOH (that translates as "Shadowrun line developer" for the
non-old-timers among us :) you can bet your ass you wouldn't even need to
ask why and how ED discussions are relevant to SR :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: The Question
Date: Mon Aug 6 19:55:23 2001
>so pretty much you're saying that cause they are like totally different
>timelines on the same planet that they're a good mix?

No, not mechanics wise. But if you want to take a guess at what the
motivations of various characters (especially great dragons like say,
Ghostwalker) might be, it helps to know what they were doing during the
fourth age. Sometimes, by reading various ED products, you can even figure
out who if still around and what names they are going by in the 6th age.
This obviously only really applies to a few rare imortal characters, like
great dragons and certai elves. However, those folks tend to be in control
of political / corporate organizations that have definate impacts on the
shadows.

-Mongoose
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Achille Autran)
Subject: The Question
Date: Tue Aug 7 07:45:11 2001
Warning ! Rant ahead !

>From: "Derek Hyde" <dhyde@*********.net>
>Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:06:05 -0500
>
>right right that's what I'm saying.....so.....if I make a game based on
>reality then mixing stuff from caveman times works with modern day stuff?
>(I'm just trying to figure out why everyone's trying to mix stuff from two
>TOTALLY different times. granted there's a few similarities such as dragons
>and the fact that there's magic but is that good enough reason to start
>importing stuff from another game?

Several reasons for these discussions:
1) It's fun as hell. Not everybody likes this, but those of us who liked
riddle solving and other IE hints correlating are really happy with that.
Granted, that's mostly stuff that will never crop up in a game. But what
the heck, here we're dealing with small and subtle hints, and those are the
funniest.
2) Have you read actual ED material? It's bloody good, especially the
Dragons SB, and some of it IS relevant for SR, especially the Dragons SB.
What do you know about dragons and draconic society in SR, except little
tidbits here and there? ED draconic society description can be shifted
directly into SR; and it fits extremely well.

> most of my players like shadowrun cause
>it's more plausable than any of the other RPG's for a couple reason...I
>limit magic on the players and the story line to it makes the appearance of
>some magic believable. I was referred to the list cause there's usually a
>lot of good info on here for GM's and players alike but I just don't see how
>this is at all relevant unless your players like a magic rich game in which
>I ask have they ever tried Alternity?

<SNIP Alternity stuff>
Well, Alternity sucks hard, and you maybe had bad experiences with it, so
what? I know plenty of people who had a blast playing ED-SR cross-over
campaigns, sometimes only with subtle references and actors, sometimes with
full-time parallel campaigns and even time-shifting, and you kow what? With
the correlated backgrounds, high-magic in SR wasn't brought out of the hoop
of some evil necromancer, but by three-dimensionnal characters with a solid
background, personnality and above all /keeping the world highly
self-consistent and believable./ I don't know if you wanted to say that
since Alternity was a sucky hodge-podge of non-related SF and fantasy, SR
tied with ED should and will as well suck, but that's not true (unless
handled by a bad GM, but what game isn't bad with a bad GM?), and it shows
your ignorance of the subtleties of those ties.

> sorry for my ranting and raving it just seems that I get about 25 messages a
>day based on ED stuff and I see no valid reason whatsoever for mixing it
>with SR stuff...perhaps if you had a history buff then it'd be something to
>add in there as knowledge but that's about it...

25 is exageration. You like your SR dark and cyberpunkish with low magic,
all the more power to you. That's not the scope of plenty of other groups,
who prefer moreepic storylines, or using the SR world out of the
shadowrunning perspective, and who have a blast using cross-over material,
and if we needed a reason for that cross-over, that's THE one. RPG are
games, and the point is to enjoy that time (please note that I didn't say
"have fun". A very dark game with plenty of bickering and feuding between
players can be immensely enjoyable.) You can't criticize those groups for
their take on the game.

Please accept my apologies if I really offended you, but I don't like when
people ditch away a gamestyle (or anything else BTW) without even having
tried it, by sheer ignorance of the matter.

Molloy

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