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Message no. 1
From: Ulrich Haupt <sandman@****.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:59:39 +0000
> > Query: wouldn't the glass radiate its own heat? and override any other
> > heat radiated unless 1) the other heat was significantly Hotter than the
> > glass or 2) was very close to the glass ...
>
> That's what I've always assumed too. Perhaps what's needed is
> access to a thermal imager to test some theories...

It is not easy to say it's that or that way because I've seen such a picture.
A usual (window) glas is transparent to IR, so glas does not stop the IR
radiation of anything. To estimate if some radiation is masked by another you
have to estimate which one is stronger.
From that point you can say a self heating radiation source as an animal or
(meta-)human is always MUCH brighter than something naturally cold. Of course
you can see heated things like ovens and floor heaters.

IMHO I don't think that the normal thermo-character (troll) has the same
resolution as thermo pictures from houses have. Those pictures show for
instance 10 degree centigrade (50 Fahrenheit) as black and 20 deg C (68 deg
Fahrenheit) as white. That is usefull for searching heating leacks but not for
looking at mammals ! Technical scanners may be adjustable but natural not (IMO).

Maybe I do some research on this topic.


> > Also, does cyber thermo override normal vision or does it overlay the
> > thermogram?
>
> I think you can choose which mode you want; it wouldn't be that
> hard to construct the imager in such a way that either is possible.

I think I read in one book (corporate security?) that thermo and normal vision
is usually overlayed.

Sandman
Message no. 2
From: AlSeyMer <AdSM@******.BE>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:06:53 +0200
Ulrich Haupt wrote:
>(snip glass and IR stuff)
> > > Also, does cyber thermo override normal vision or does it overlay the
> > > thermogram?
> >
> > I think you can choose which mode you want; it wouldn't be that
> > hard to construct the imager in such a way that either is possible.
>
> I think I read in one book (corporate security?) that thermo and normal vision
> is usually overlayed.
>
I agree with Gurth when he says that it shouldn't be so difficult to
build an imager which can eiter display IR/thermo or not.
However, as stated in FOF (p80), natural thermo overlays normal vision.
IMHO, if you usually see IR, if you were brought up seeing the world
this way, it would be inconvenient for you to be deprieved of this
capacity by using an imager that gives you only normal vision. In fact,
you could be troubled by seeing your target in normal vision, overlayed
by the thermo signature of the imager you are using.

AlSeyMer

--
Born in your brain and gnawing you.
http://www.mygale.org/10/alseymer
Message no. 3
From: Ulrich Haupt <sandman@****.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:43:21 +0000
AlSeyMer wrote:

> However, as stated in FOF (p80), natural thermo overlays normal vision.
> IMHO, if you usually see IR, if you were brought up seeing the world
> this way, it would be inconvenient for you to be deprieved of this
> capacity by using an imager that gives you only normal vision. In fact,
> you could be troubled by seeing your target in normal vision, overlayed
> by the thermo signature of the imager you are using.

Metahumans are born as humans and 'goblinize' at the age of 13 (approx.). I
don't think that such children see IR when they are born.

Any comments ?

Sandman
Message no. 4
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:20:55 +0100
And verily, did Ulrich Haupt hastily scribble thusly...
|
|AlSeyMer wrote:
|
|> However, as stated in FOF (p80), natural thermo overlays normal vision.
|> IMHO, if you usually see IR, if you were brought up seeing the world
|> this way, it would be inconvenient for you to be deprieved of this
|> capacity by using an imager that gives you only normal vision. In fact,
|> you could be troubled by seeing your target in normal vision, overlayed
|> by the thermo signature of the imager you are using.
|
|Metahumans are born as humans and 'goblinize' at the age of 13 (approx.). I
|don't think that such children see IR when they are born.

|Any comments ?

Yes.
You're several decades out of date.
The majority of trolls and orks are now BORN as trolls and orks.
A small minority are born human and goblinise.

And elves and dwarves have NEVER goblinised. They have always been born that
way.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 5
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:57:43 -0500
On Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:59:39 +0000 Ulrich Haupt
<sandman@****.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE> writes:
>> > Query: wouldn't the glass radiate its own heat? and override any
other
>> > heat radiated unless 1) the other heat was significantly Hotter than
the
>> > glass or 2) was very close to the glass ...

>> That's what I've always assumed too. Perhaps what's needed is
>> access to a thermal imager to test some theories...

>It is not easy to say it's that or that way because I've seen such a
picture.
>A usual (window) glas is transparent to IR, so glas does not stop the IR
>radiation of anything. To estimate if some radiation is masked by
another you
>have to estimate which one is stronger.
>From that point you can say a self heating radiation source as an animal
or
>(meta-)human is always MUCH brighter than something naturally cold. Of
course
>you can see heated things like ovens and floor heaters.

Okay wouldn't that depend? Like seeing into a house in the summer time
is harder than seeing into one in the winter ... also, IMO, there would
be an abundance of energy effecient homes in SR ... would any of the
energy saving methods affect thermal vision?

>IMHO I don't think that the normal thermo-character (troll) has the same
>resolution as thermo pictures from houses have. Those pictures show for
>instance 10 degree centigrade (50 Fahrenheit) as black and 20 deg C (68
deg
>Fahrenheit) as white. That is usefull for searching heating leacks but
not for
>looking at mammals ! Technical scanners may be adjustable but natural
not
>(IMO).
>
>Maybe I do some research on this topic.

<SNIP>
>Sandman

That explains why the pic in that physics book was inconclusive ... it
was a thermogram for detecting heat leaks ... :)

Related Query: Nightvision goggles, IIRC, now use green light to display
everything because the eyes are more receptive to green ... is this still
true in SR? Do low-light vision mods (artificial ones) display everything
in monochromatic green?

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 6
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:21:49 -0400
<snip thermo discussion>

> Related Query: Nightvision goggles, IIRC, now use green light to
> display
> everything because the eyes are more receptive to green ... is this
> still
> true in SR? Do low-light vision mods (artificial ones) display
> everything
> in monochromatic green?
>
I'm not sure on the cyber versions but the natural
lowlight and the modified low-light (non-cyber mofications) IIRC "add
more rod structures to the eyes" or something along those lines. The rod
structures are capable of seeing only in black and white, no color. So I
imagine in these cases the best case would give you muted, washed out
colors. Worst case would give you black and white vision.
Theorizing on cyber, I would say that the color may be
irrelevant. The green receptiveness is due to the chemical processes in
the eyes, although the nerve centers in the brain may still see things a
certain way. That is, your brain may register it as green even if
nothing is indicating that it should be other than the nerve pathways
being used. Still it seems to me that the cybereye could show it to you
in whatever color you wanted. Perhaps it would even become a marketing
thing (Ares SuperGold(tm), or MacroTech HyperViolet(tm)). I'm sure a
company could spin it to sound like any given color would be better.
Really all you are doing here is putting a colored filter on a B&W image
though (Fuchi PureWhite(tm) lowlight (nice ring to it)). I'm not sure it
would matter to your brain.
Message no. 7
From: AlSeyMer <AdSM@******.BE>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:56:11 +0200
Ulrich Haupt wrote:
>
> AlSeyMer wrote:
>
> > However, as stated in FOF (p80), natural thermo overlays normal vision.
> > IMHO, if you usually see IR, if you were brought up seeing the world
> > this way, it would be inconvenient for you to be deprieved of this
> > capacity by using an imager that gives you only normal vision. In fact,
> > you could be troubled by seeing your target in normal vision, overlayed
> > by the thermo signature of the imager you are using.
>
> Metahumans are born as humans and 'goblinize' at the age of 13 (approx.). I
> don't think that such children see IR when they are born.
>
> Any comments ?
>
> Sandman

Sorry, i made a typo :-/

What i wanted to say was that your usual dwarf or troll would be at a
disadvantage using an imager set to normal vision, as he sees both his
target in normal vision via the imager and his imager heat signature via
his own eyes.
More on the subject: heat signatures are usually larger than the object
emitting it (a normal vision analogy would be to stare at the sun). The
hotter the object compared to its environnement, the more it's blurred,
in shade of decreasing temperature as it blends with its surroundings.
As everything else, the imager has a temperature, and so a heat
signature also.
Let's say that your troll/dwarf set his imager tu dual mode
(normal&thermo), he will see:
_ his target in normal vision via the imager;
_ his taget in thermo vision via the imager;
_ his imager thermal signature via his own eyes;
_ and, if he uses a glowing imager, his imager via his own eyes ;-).
We don't usually have troubles to interpret images through binoculars,
because light take, usually, a direct/straight line path from object to
viewer. Let's say that we are using glowing binoculars (you know, the
really stupid ones, where everything glows, internal parts included), we
would be hard pressed to see anything but the binoculars...
So, my point is that orks and dwarves should have real troubles using
any kind of sight augmentation (except for cybereyes, IMHO, because they
can switch the thermo vision option off).

Let's return to the topic:
The thermal conductivity of glass increase with temperature, so the
hotter it gets, the more glass is radiating heat. Thermal conductivity
of glass is well below the one of metals, usually.
Specific heat of glass also increases with the temperature, so higher
the temperature means that you have to pour more heat into it to
increase its temperature.
This means that heated glass sees it's temperature increase, fast first
than slowly, then either meld, if you continue to heat it, or break, if
you stop heating it, because he can't get rid of its heat fast enough.
Measures give vastly different results because thickness take an
important part, and because there are a lot of glass compositions
inducing different glass properties.
Taking the usual single pane window, the heat form of a hot object can
be perceived through it, if it stays long enough to radiate its heat to
the window. But, if the object is colder than the window, you will have
to wait long enough till the window has finished radiating its excess
heat to be able to see the object thermal signature.
How much is long enough? Good question. It depends on glass thickness,
its composition, ambiant temperature, objects temperature, even wind and
such.
To say something vaguely usefull, bulletproof glass, usually..., beeing
thicker, should be harder to see through, as it can keep a given heat
longer/takes more time to change its temperature in normal conditions.
An interesting fact is that when you shoot at it, it's temperature
increases (energy transfer, like with other materials). Another
interesting fact is that when you fire a laser at glass, some of it
makes it through, the rest heats the afore mentionned worthless piece of
glass.

Comments welcome ;-)

AlSeyMer
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:59:36 +0100
Ulrich Haupt said on 14:43/9 Jul 98,...

> Metahumans are born as humans and 'goblinize' at the age of 13 (approx.). I
> don't think that such children see IR when they are born.
>
> Any comments ?

Yes, one or two...

First of all, only orks and trolls can be born human and goblinize,
usually around gae 12 or 13. Dwarfs and elves are always born as
such.

Second, goblinization is extremely rare by the 2050s. Just about
only the "original" orks and trolls were created this way, and a
much smaller number of people goblinized later on. By the
present day (whichever year that is in your SR game), hardly
anybody goblinizes anymore.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"That's IT, lunchbox!!! We'll go to Shermer, Illinois!"
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:45:03 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-09 08:41:21 EDT, you write:

> Metahumans are born as humans and 'goblinize' at the age of 13 (approx.). I
> don't think that such children see IR when they are born.

I think you are dreadfully confused, Sandman.

Elves and dwarves never goblinized... every elf and dwarf was born precisely
how they are. By 2050, _most_ orks and trolls were born the way they are, to
ork or troll, or occasionally human, parents.

Nexx
Message no. 10
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:30:32 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-09 13:55:27 EDT, you write:

> So, my point is that orks and dwarves should have real troubles using
> any kind of sight augmentation (except for cybereyes, IMHO, because they
> can switch the thermo vision option off).

How do dwarves and trolls handle cyber-eye thermo? After all, its not going
to be the same as their natural thermo, but their brains would already be set
up to see things that way, unlike the brains of elves, orks, and breeders...

Nexx
Message no. 11
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:56:23 -0400
On 9 Jul 98, at 15:30, Nexx Many-Scars wrote:

> How do dwarves and trolls handle cyber-eye thermo? After all, its not
> going to be the same as their natural thermo, but their brains would
> already be set up to see things that way, unlike the brains of elves,
> orks, and breeders...

In my game, metahumans can have their vision speciality added into a
cybereye without costing additional essense. I figured that the brain
is already setup for that information, and the electronics added to
the cyber eye itself are self contained.

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 12
From: AlSeyMer <AdSM@******.BE>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 22:40:58 +0200
Nexx Many-Scars wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-07-09 13:55:27 EDT, you write:
>
> > So, my point is that orks and dwarves should have real troubles using
> > any kind of sight augmentation (except for cybereyes, IMHO, because they
> > can switch the thermo vision option off).
>
> How do dwarves and trolls handle cyber-eye thermo? After all, its not going
> to be the same as their natural thermo, but their brains would already be set
> up to see things that way, unlike the brains of elves, orks, and breeders...
>
> Nexx

The way i see it is that when you got your eyes replaced, visual input
still has to go through the same neural pathway to get to the brain and
be interpreted.

So, let's say that a special area of the brain treat the IR signal, and
another the light one. In this case, thermo vision is considered as
another sense, sharing the same sensors as normal sight.

We have two options:
1. Signal is discriminated at the eye level. There is two kinds of
receptive cellules in the eye, each kind taking care of one kind of
stimulus. So IR and light signals go by their own particular pathway to
the brain to be interpreted in different places.
Your cyber replacement will have to be wired to the right neural
channels.
2. Signal is discriminated at the brain level. Our two kinds of cellules
emit signals that share the same pathway, like phone calls on the cable,
but are somehow sorted by the brain to go to their respective processing
places.
Your cyber replacement will have to give its output in the right format.

IMHO, option 2. would be harder to realize, as you are adding processing
equipment to the cyber eyes (and it has the same price for everybody),
as opposed to option 1. where all you have to do is to put the cybereyes
outputs where they belong.

An alternative way to get around this is to say that visual information
is treated indifferently whatever the race, that the same brain areas
are involved. The visual input is differenciated directly at the
reception level by different kind of cellules producing an unified
signal that takes both ir and thermo stimuli into account and blend them
together. This information is then interpreted by the normal visual
brain areas. For all intents and purposes, it would be like seeing
colors no other race can see.

AlSeyMer
Message no. 13
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 04:22:41 -0400
Once upon a time, Nexx Many-Scars wrote;

>How do dwarves and trolls handle cyber-eye thermo? After all, its not going
>to be the same as their natural thermo, but their brains would already be set
>up to see things that way, unlike the brains of elves, orks, and breeders...

After a few weeks the brain will "retrain" to "see" everything
correctly. A lot of we we take for granted as seeing is done by the brain
and not the eyes. It is the brain that flips the image the eyes are
provided. (being a lens the eyes flip the image upside down). If one was
to wear special glasses that flip the vision before it reaches the eyes
after a few weeks the person's sight would return to "normal" as the
brain corrects the vision.
On another note about color, the brain also determines colors by
comparison. as long as a range of colors are present the brain can still
tell colors apart even when the light waves are changed to hid the colors
(RGB shifted around to change responses). This is why color blindness can
go undetected. Tests for colorblindness only uses a few colors so the
brain has no color range to adjust from.

-MC23, who is impressed by his retention of a Nova episode from 10 years
ago-
Message no. 14
From: Ulrich Haupt <sandman@****.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:24:34 +0000
<snip Gurth's, Spike's and a lot others replys>

okokokokokokokokoko

I admit

I haven't read that part closely enough

Most (if not almost all) metahumans are born as they are!


But back to the topic!


I don't believe (and evolution shows) that no higher animal has thermo vision only!

In rainy conditions you can see almost nothing. Submerged in water you can see
really nothing at all! You can't differ between two object that have exactly
the same which is not too rare in reality.

Because of these reasons I imagine that those thermo-creatures do not rely on
this perception mainly!

Considering the typical Seattle weather there could be no orc taxi driver
(without a very good auto pilot), because he would drive in permanent THICK
fog. He needs special headlights because the normal have no very much energy
in the IR spectrum! He cannot read papers or books. Especially he cannot read
monitors or LCD displays!

IMO the rule that (natural only?) thermo vision overlays normal vision applys
only to vision modifiers or is meant to apply only there.


Question: Who describes a scene to an orc character in thermo vision first
even when thermo vision applys instead of standard vision and who does not?


Sandman
Message no. 15
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:33:23 -0400
Once upon a time, Ulrich Haupt wrote;

>Question: Who describes a scene to an orc character in thermo vision first
>even when thermo vision applys instead of standard vision and who does not?

Troll or Dwarf. Orks have low light.
Message no. 16
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:42:55 -0400
> I don't believe (and evolution shows) that no higher animal has thermo
> vision only!
>
ITS MAGIC DUDE!! FM! THE GREAT UNEQUALIZER!! It doesn't
HAVE to fit evolution!

> In rainy conditions you can see almost nothing. Submerged in water you
> can see
> really nothing at all! You can't differ between two object that have
> exactly
> the same which is not too rare in reality.
>
> Because of these reasons I imagine that those thermo-creatures do not
> rely on
> this perception mainly!
>
> Considering the typical Seattle weather there could be no orc taxi
> driver
> (without a very good auto pilot), because he would drive in permanent
> THICK
> fog. He needs special headlights because the normal have no very much
> energy
> in the IR spectrum! He cannot read papers or books. Especially he
> cannot read
> monitors or LCD displays!
>
Sheesh, overreact much?
Look, it is not unlikely that the rely on it quite a
bit. It is a natural part of the way they see.
They don't see ONLY in thermo. They see normally also.
You and I can see with a limited form of lowlight by
looking at things properly. The rods in your eyes are primarily around
the outside edge of your vision. You see MUCH better in low lighting
with the black and white vision the rods provide than with the color
vision your cones (cones are much more common at the focal point of the
eye that we use all the time) provide. The trick here (and you will see
it in any night survival manual) is to look to the side of the object
you want to see. This brings more rods to bear on the target and you can
see it more distinctly, however since it is not your focus you lose
detail.
I see the natural thermo working much the same way. It
is there when they need it, but most of the time they don't. Visible (to
us) lighting generally overpowers the thermo images (unless an object is
REALLY hot). So on a bright sunny day in the park you don't see much, if
anything, with thermo. However in the sewers at 3am you see quite a bit.
I imagine this is similar to the rod/cone setup we have where the
visible light receivers are more common at the focal point of the eye
with thermo receivers more common in peripheral vision.
Basically the visible light is a roar and the thermo is
a whisper. Only when its quiet do you hear the whisper.


> IMO the rule that (natural only?) thermo vision overlays normal vision
> applys
> only to vision modifiers or is meant to apply only there.
>
huh?

> Question: Who describes a scene to an orc character in thermo vision
> first
> even when thermo vision applys instead of standard vision and who does
> not?
>
Double huh?
Message no. 17
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:43:24 -0400
> Once upon a time, Ulrich Haupt wrote;
>
> >Question: Who describes a scene to an orc character in thermo vision
> first
> >even when thermo vision applys instead of standard vision and who
> does not?
>
> Troll or Dwarf. Orks have low light.
>
Geek.
Message no. 18
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:01:23 +0100
And verily, did bryan.covington@****.COM hastily scribble thusly...
|> Troll or Dwarf. Orks have low light.
|>
| Geek.
|

And what's wrong with being a Geek?
Geeks rule the world, or will once Microsoft has been vanquished...
<Muhahahahaha>
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 19
From: wafflemiester <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:19:03 -0500
>
> Re: Thermographics and glass (bryan.covington@****.COM, Thu 12:21)

> Theorizing on cyber, I would say that the color may be
> irrelevant. The green receptiveness is due to the chemical processes in
> the eyes, although the nerve centers in the brain may still see things a
> certain way. That is, your brain may register it as green even if
> nothing is indicating that it should be other than the nerve pathways
> being used. Still it seems to me that the cybereye could show it to you
> in whatever color you wanted. Perhaps it would even become a marketing
> thing (Ares SuperGold(tm), or MacroTech HyperViolet(tm)).

See my otherpost. I'm sure the adjusability and aesthetic quality of
the visual sensorium would be a BIG selling point. I'd at least hope
somebody who cared about aesthetics was involved in the developement
process, but what I've heared about choclear implants makes me wonder.

> I'm sure a
> company could spin it to sound like any given color would be better.
> Really all you are doing here is putting a colored filter on a B&W image
> though (Fuchi PureWhite(tm) lowlight (nice ring to it)). I'm not sure it
> would matter to your brain.

I doubt so. wear red glasses long enough, and eventually you "see" red
as "white".
The marketing strenght would goto whatever system allowed broadest
input, greatest contrast, brightest color-liketv's toaday, I'd assume.
The "sony nuerotron" system might have a certain cachet to it, for
example, for clean, sharp, distortion free performance.
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:29:58 +0100
Ulrich Haupt said on 10:24/10 Jul 98,...

> I don't believe (and evolution shows) that no higher animal has
> thermo vision only!

The common interpretation is that dwarfs and trolls see in the
same spectrum as humans can, and add thermographic onto that,
overlaid with the "normal" vision (of course, both are "normal" to
them).

> Because of these reasons I imagine that those thermo-creatures do not rely on
> this perception mainly!

See above.

> IMO the rule that (natural only?) thermo vision overlays normal vision applys
> only to vision modifiers or is meant to apply only there.

What do you mean here? I don't quite understand.

> Question: Who describes a scene to an orc character in thermo vision first
> even when thermo vision applys instead of standard vision and who does not?

A complicated sentence, that... :) I suppose you mean trolls,
since orks have low-light vision. Anyway, I often forget about
those things when I'm GMing, except when there's a shoot-out in
the dark or in other conditions where visibility modifiers apply.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"That's IT, lunchbox!!! We'll go to Shermer, Illinois!"
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:29:09 +0200
Ulrich Haupt wrote:

> Considering the typical Seattle weather there could be no orc taxi driver
> (without a very good auto pilot), because he would drive in permanent THICK
> fog. He needs special headlights because the normal have no very much energy
> in the IR spectrum! He cannot read papers or books. Especially he cannot read
> monitors or LCD displays!
>

Why shouldn't he be able to read these things you described? He has not only thermo
vision but also normal vision. It's both combined!

Blix
Message no. 22
From: John Penta <johndevil@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:36:41 -0400
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 04:22:41 -0400 MC23 <mc23@**********.COM> writes:
<Snip Nexx's question>
> After a few weeks the brain will "retrain" to "see"
everything
>correctly. A lot of we we take for granted as seeing is done by the
>brain
>and not the eyes. It is the brain that flips the image the eyes are
>provided. (being a lens the eyes flip the image upside down). If one
>was
>to wear special glasses that flip the vision before it reaches the
>eyes
>after a few weeks the person's sight would return to "normal" as the
>brain corrects the vision.
> On another note about color, the brain also determines colors by
>comparison. as long as a range of colors are present the brain can
>still
>tell colors apart even when the light waves are changed to hid the
>colors
>(RGB shifted around to change responses). This is why color blindness
>can
>go undetected. Tests for colorblindness only uses a few colors so the
>brain has no color range to adjust from.
<snip sig>
On another note. I have retinal detachment(one eye only, thank god).
I can only see LIGHT out of that. The brain really does everything. So,
in my case...
could cybereyes fix my eyes?

John

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Message no. 23
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:08:42 -0300
At 12:36 10/07/98 -0400, you wrote:
>On another note. I have retinal detachment(one eye only, thank god).
>I can only see LIGHT out of that. The brain really does everything. So,
>in my case...
>could cybereyes fix my eyes?
>

Yes they could, since your problem affects the retina in one eye, not
the optical
nerves nor the brain areas wich process eye input...

Bira
Message no. 24
From: Ulrich Haupt <sandman@****.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and glass
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:46:13 +0000
Hi Folks!

It seems from your answers that you have the same opinion as I have. All I
just wanted to say - in a very long-winded (German?) way - was that all
metahumans do percept in the visible spectrum of light in first place and only
add thermo and low light and whatever! Maybe I was too detailed. :-)

Sandman

- who is searching for thermo and low light interpretations in the library

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