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Message no. 1
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 11:45:54 -0700
On Mon, 24 Oct 1994, Micah Levy wrote:

Improved Invisibility (Physical) works by bending light around you.
Vision is a passive sense, not an active one. This means that
light shines on the object, and then is randomly scattered into the
environment where it is picked up by detectors (eyes).
If light bends around the object, then no light reflects from the
objet and there is no light to detect the object with. Hence, it becomes
invisible. But now, the object actively radiates heat into the
environment, and bent or not the heat is still going to escape into the
environment, where it can be detected.
Ultrasound is an active sensor, meaning it sends out pulses of
sound which bounce off objects and reflect back into the environment,
where it can be detected. Because Invisibility does not affect Sound, it
cannot hide from Ultrasound. Because Invisibility does not change the
heat signature of the recipient, it cannot prevent the target from
emitting heat, and thus becoming detectable via Thermographic vision.

> ||Micah Levy Department of Computer Science ||

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 2
From: Micah Levy <M.Levy@**.UCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 19:10:01 +0000
I hear what you are saying, but the point my player was making was that
since the light was being bent around him then surely it couldn't bounce off
his retinas and so if he hadn't had thermographic vision he would have been
blinded.

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
||Micah Levy Department of Computer Science ||
|| University College London ||
||Web Page: http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/people/zcacma0.html ||
||Email: M.Levy@**.ucl.ac.uk Cestor@******.com ||
|| zcacma0@**.ucl.ac.uk Micah@******.com ||
|| GCS d--@ H s g+(-) p? au--(+)>++ a- w v++ C++++($) UV++(-) P- L- 3 E-||
|| N++ K W++ M+ V-- -po+ Y++ t+ 5-- jx R++ G+(----) tv b+++ D+ B--- e+ u- ||
|| h- f n+ y? ||
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Message no. 3
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 16:29:49 -0500
>On Mon, 24 Oct 1994, Micah Levy wrote:
>
> Improved Invisibility (Physical) works by bending light around you.
> Vision is a passive sense, not an active one. This means that
>light shines on the object, and then is randomly scattered into the
>environment where it is picked up by detectors (eyes).
> If light bends around the object, then no light reflects from the
>objet and there is no light to detect the object with. Hence, it becomes
>invisible. But now, the object actively radiates heat into the
>environment, and bent or not the heat is still going to escape into the
>environment, where it can be detected.
> Ultrasound is an active sensor, meaning it sends out pulses of
>sound which bounce off objects and reflect back into the environment,
>where it can be detected. Because Invisibility does not affect Sound, it
>cannot hide from Ultrasound. Because Invisibility does not change the
>heat signature of the recipient, it cannot prevent the target from
>emitting heat, and thus becoming detectable via Thermographic vision.
>
>
This is a common misconception, it has been resolved easliy. Light has to
obey the laws of physics but magic only has to obey the laws of "MetaPhysics".

Metaphysics does not equal physics. Improved invisilbity follows metaphysisc not
physics. Whether it bends, warps or cludges it works, ITS MAGIC not applied
engineering!! ;-)

Sinbad Sam
Law Of Contagion
Law Of Similarity
Message no. 4
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 15:22:44 -0700
On Mon, 24 Oct 1994, Sam Thomas wrote:

> This is a common misconception, it has been resolved easliy. Light has to
> obey the laws of physics but magic only has to obey the laws of
"MetaPhysics".

Which are laws nonetheless in any empirical sense, so your
argument is fallacious.

> Metaphysics does not equal physics. Improved invisilbity follows metaphysisc not
> physics. Whether it bends, warps or cludges it works, ITS MAGIC not applied
> engineering!! ;-)

Read the worldview of the mage, in _The Grimoire II_, and you
will see that the above is blatantly not true, as the entire basis for
the mage's way of doing things is "Magic as Science". Oh, and read some
real magic books, like P.E.I. Bonewitz' _Real Magick_, and your arguments
are disproven (consider that Bonewitz had experts from all fields of
science, including some Nobel laureates at Berkeley, review his work to
insure it contained no contradictions to modern science.)
Physics is not just Newton's Laws or Quantum Mechanics, but a
conceptual framework for understanding natural phenomena. It necessarily
has a scaffolding constructed of mathematics, but like any scaffolding
the framework can be torn down and one is still left with the laws of
nature.

> Sinbad Sam
> Law Of Contagion

Here is a law that describes a "magical phenomenon", basically a
physical law not expressed in mathematical form.

> Law Of Similarity

And here is yet another one. You have disproven your own remarks!

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 5
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 18:12:57 -0500
>On Mon, 24 Oct 1994, Sam Thomas wrote:
>
>> This is a common misconception, it has been resolved easliy. Light has to
>> obey the laws of physics but magic only has to obey the laws of
"MetaPhysics".
>
> Which are laws nonetheless in any empirical sense, so your
>argument is fallacious.
>

Never the less this was the decision from talking the Tom and Paul at Gencom
at a seminar
that they were open to questions, and from their reponses on Genie on this
topic.

>> Metaphysics does not equal physics. Improved invisilbity follows
metaphysisc not
>> physics. Whether it bends, warps or cludges it works, ITS MAGIC not applied
>> engineering!! ;-)
>
> Read the worldview of the mage, in _The Grimoire II_, and you
>will see that the above is blatantly not true, as the entire basis for
>the mage's way of doing things is "Magic as Science". Oh, and read some
>real magic books, like P.E.I. Bonewitz' _Real Magick_, and your arguments
>are disproven (consider that Bonewitz had experts from all fields of
>science, including some Nobel laureates at Berkeley, review his work to
>insure it contained no contradictions to modern science.)

Yes it is a science but only to itself, and following its own laws.

I believe that you find the title to Mr Bonewits's book is "Authentic
Thaumanturgy".
but that is the only work that I am familar with. Real Magic? by whose
definition?
Western? Eastern? Vancian?, Wiccan?, Satanic?, Druidical?, Voudun? Etc.
Experts?
how many are praticing Adepts in real life?
Contradictions to Modern Science? Oxymoron? maybe. Remember the bumble bee?

> Physics is not just Newton's Laws or Quantum Mechanics, but a
>conceptual framework for understanding natural phenomena. It necessarily
>has a scaffolding constructed of mathematics, but like any scaffolding
>the framework can be torn down and one is still left with the laws of
>nature.

Exactly I am talking about "Metaphysics" not physics.

>>> Law Of Contagion
>>
>> Here is a law that describes a "magical phenomenon", basically a
>>physical law not expressed in mathematical form.
>
Some things cannot be describe by todays mathematics or current scientific
theory.

>
>> Sinbad Sam
>> Law Of Contagion
>
> Here is a law that describes a "magical phenomenon", basically a
>physical law not expressed in mathematical form.
>
>> Law Of Similarity
>
> And here is yet another one. You have disproven your own remarks!
>
I really do not think so but to each its own.
>+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
>|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
>| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the
opponent"|
>+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
>
>
Later Then
Sinbad Sam
"Blessed Be"
Message no. 6
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 16:55:41 -0700
On Mon, 24 Oct 1994, Sam Thomas wrote:

> I believe that you find the title to Mr Bonewits's book is "Authentic
> Thaumanturgy".

Nope; have it in my hot little hands. _Real Magick_.

> Contradictions to Modern Science? Oxymoron? maybe. Remember the bumble bee?

This is the biggest urban myth about aerodynamics and the bumble
bee, and I can't count how many times I have disproved it.
The bumblebee supposedly does not generate enough lift when using
a laminar flow model, which is all early aerodynamcists had to go on.
Once they investigated turbulent air flows and Prandtl's boundary layer
separation, they determined the bumble bee could indeed, fly.

> Exactly I am talking about "Metaphysics" not physics.

I think you missed my point. My point was that natural laws
still govern phenomena, whether you name it physics or metaphysics or
whatever. "A rose by any other name ..."

> Some things cannot be describe by todays mathematics or current scientific
> theory.

This doesn't mean that they *cannot* be explicated in terms of
scientific principles, but only that we lack the knowledge to currently
do so. A good example is quantum gravity.

> Sinbad Sam

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 7
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 19:06:56 EST
> This doesn't mean that they *cannot* be explicated in terms of
> scientific principles, but only that we lack the knowledge to currently
> do so. A good example is quantum gravity.
>


Exactly. So stop fooling around with something you don't understand.
Could get yourself perished that way.

By-the-by, my stand on this issue will not be heard today. Gotta do
laundry, and the immortal elf who has been teaching me metaphysics
and spelling is of playing chess with Mountainshadow and hasn't
taught the spell for COMPLETE AND TOTAL
UNDERSTANDING!!!!!!!(nice name,neh?) It's usful for instant clean
clothes.:) Seriously i simply haven't the time. Please argue tomorrow
and I will gladly join in.



Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever gods they worship will smile upon them.
I waltz through shadows with my gods, and I lead!

-SHADOWDANCER-
Message no. 8
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 19:25:16 -0500
>> This doesn't mean that they *cannot* be explicated in terms of
>> scientific principles, but only that we lack the knowledge to currently
>> do so. A good example is quantum gravity.
>>
>
>
>Exactly. So stop fooling around with something you don't understand.
>Could get yourself perished that way.
>
Here Here!

>By-the-by, my stand on this issue will not be heard today. Gotta do
>laundry, and the immortal elf who has been teaching me metaphysics
>and spelling is of playing chess with Mountainshadow and hasn't
>taught the spell for COMPLETE AND TOTAL
>UNDERSTANDING!!!!!!!(nice name,neh?) It's usful for instant clean
>clothes.:) Seriously i simply haven't the time. Please argue tomorrow
>and I will gladly join in.
>
>
>
>Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever gods they worship will
smile upon them.
>I waltz through shadows with my gods, and I lead!
>
> -SHADOWDANCER-
>
>
Until then

Sinbad Sam
Message no. 9
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 19:37:10 -0500
>On Mon, 24 Oct 1994, Sam Thomas wrote:
>
>> I believe that you find the title to Mr Bonewits's book is "Authentic
>> Thaumanturgy".
>
> Nope; have it in my hot little hands. _Real Magick_.
>
I stand corrected but then I have not had the need for that tome since 1980.
I gave my
copy to someone who truly needed it but would not understand it.

>> Contradictions to Modern Science? Oxymoron? maybe. Remember the bumble bee?
>
> This is the biggest urban myth about aerodynamics and the bumble
>bee, and I can't count how many times I have disproved it.
> The bumblebee supposedly does not generate enough lift when using
>a laminar flow model, which is all early aerodynamcists had to go on.
>Once they investigated turbulent air flows and Prandtl's boundary layer
>separation, they determined the bumble bee could indeed, fly.
>
Some things will never be explained, classified or codified by a nonmetaphysical
mind set. Example the "Lights of Marfa" . What about the "light at the end
of the
tunnel" that near death victims describe. But these will be mote points to a
nonmetaphysical mindset.

>> Exactly I am talking about "Metaphysics" not physics.
>
> I think you missed my point. My point was that natural laws
>still govern phenomena, whether you name it physics or metaphysics or
>whatever. "A rose by any other name ..."
>
>> Some things cannot be describe by todays mathematics or current scientific
>> theory.
>
> This doesn't mean that they *cannot* be explicated in terms of
>scientific principles, but only that we lack the knowledge to currently
>do so. A good example is quantum gravity.
>
But some things just have to be belived rather than explained. Until you alter
your everything has to fit mindset, progress toward enlightnment will be
retarded
greatly.

>> Sinbad Sam
>
>+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
>|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
>| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the
opponent"|
>+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
>
>

Sinbad Sam
"There none so blind as those who do not see"
Message no. 10
From: Chad Hessoun <chessoun@*******.COLUMBUS.OH.US>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 23:54:39 -0400
> On Mon, 24 Oct 1994, Micah Levy wrote:
>
> Improved Invisibility (Physical) works by bending light around you.
[...]
> invisible. But now, the object actively radiates heat into the
> environment, and bent or not the heat is still going to escape into the
> environment, where it can be detected.
[more rant deleted]

I think that the scientific question would be how that leaking heat was
detected/evidenced. Heat registers in the infrared spectrum, which is part
of light, which can be seen. House ruling: Imp. Invis. affects all vision
types (normal, low, and thermo), but not ultra. That's my photographic
understanding of how these things work, which is good enough for me.

As for physics v. metaphysics, I suspect that some talented quantum
physician could allow for pretty much everything. Chill.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- C H A D H E S S O U N -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>> itinerant OTISian ArchBishop formerly of Kenyon and Greater Gambier
<<<
>>>>> Everything forbidden is optional... 9 out of 10 heretics agree!
<<<<<
Hail OTIS! Find out more: ighf@******.com or hessoun@******.edu Hail Spode!
Message no. 11
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 15:00:00 +1000
Sinbad writes:

> But some things just have to be belived rather than explained. Until you alter
> your everything has to fit mindset, progress toward enlightnment will be
> retarded
> greatly.

Hey, you'd make a good shaman, and Adam'd make a good hermetic... :-)

And we all know what they say about arguments between the two different
types, now, don't we? :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 12
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 15:10:09 +1000
Chad writes:

> As for physics v. metaphysics, I suspect that some talented quantum
> physician could allow for pretty much everything. Chill.
^^^^^^^^^

???? :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 13
From: Micah Levy <M.Levy@**.UCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 11:58:43 +0000
> >On Mon, 24 Oct 1994, Micah Levy wrote:
> >
> > Improved Invisibility (Physical) works by bending light around you.
> > Vision is a passive sense, not an active one. This means that
> >light shines on the object, and then is randomly scattered into the
> >environment where it is picked up by detectors (eyes).
> > If light bends around the object, then no light reflects from the
> >objet and there is no light to detect the object with. Hence, it becomes
> >invisible. But now, the object actively radiates heat into the
> >environment, and bent or not the heat is still going to escape into the
> >environment, where it can be detected.
> > Ultrasound is an active sensor, meaning it sends out pulses of
> >sound which bounce off objects and reflect back into the environment,
> >where it can be detected. Because Invisibility does not affect Sound, it
> >cannot hide from Ultrasound. Because Invisibility does not change the
> >heat signature of the recipient, it cannot prevent the target from
> >emitting heat, and thus becoming detectable via Thermographic vision.
> >
> >
> This is a common misconception, it has been resolved easliy. Light has to
> obey the laws of physics but magic only has to obey the laws of
"MetaPhysics".
>
> Metaphysics does not equal physics. Improved invisilbity follows metaphysisc
not
> physics. Whether it bends, warps or cludges it works, ITS MAGIC not applied
> engineering!! ;-)
>
> Sinbad Sam
> Law Of Contagion
> Law Of Similarity

Erm, I think you have made a mistake. I never said that- I think Adam
Getchell said that. And in any case, my point was that I didn't feel very
happy saying to the players 'well, it works because it's magic'.

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
||Micah Levy Department of Computer Science ||
|| University College London ||
||Web Page: http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/people/zcacma0.html ||
||Email: M.Levy@**.ucl.ac.uk Cestor@******.com ||
|| zcacma0@**.ucl.ac.uk Micah@******.com ||
|| GCS d--@ H s g+(-) p? au--(+)>++ a- w v++ C++++($) UV++(-) P- L- 3 E-||
|| N++ K W++ M+ V-- -po+ Y++ t+ 5-- jx R++ G+(----) tv b+++ D+ B--- e+ u- ||
|| h- f n+ y? ||
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Message no. 14
From: Micah Levy <M.Levy@**.UCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 13:13:57 +0000
> > On Mon, 24 Oct 1994, Micah Levy wrote:
> >
> > Improved Invisibility (Physical) works by bending light around you.
> [...]
> > invisible. But now, the object actively radiates heat into the
> > environment, and bent or not the heat is still going to escape into the
> > environment, where it can be detected.
> [more rant deleted]
>

[stuff deleted]

>
> -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- C H A D H E S S O U N -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >>> itinerant OTISian ArchBishop formerly of Kenyon and Greater Gambier
<<<
> >>>>> Everything forbidden is optional... 9 out of 10 heretics agree!
<<<<<
> Hail OTIS! Find out more: ighf@******.com or hessoun@******.edu Hail Spode!

Can't people read posts? I DID NOT SAY THAT! It was Adam Getchell. Please
attribute correctly.

Micah Levy
Message no. 15
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 10:30:05 -0400
> > But some things just have to be belived rather than explained. Until you
alter
> > your everything has to fit mindset, progress toward enlightnment will be
> > retarded
> > greatly.
>
> Hey, you'd make a good shaman, and Adam'd make a good hermetic... :-)
>
> And we all know what they say about arguments between the two different
> types, now, don't we? :-)
>

Yeah, you ever watch that show? 'The Odd Coven'? Totally a riot.
<Grin>
Message no. 16
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 09:58:40 -0700
On Mon, 24 Oct 1994, Shadowdancer wrote:

> > This doesn't mean that they *cannot* be explicated in terms of
> > scientific principles, but only that we lack the knowledge to currently
> > do so. A good example is quantum gravity.
> >
>
>
> Exactly. So stop fooling around with something you don't understand.
> Could get yourself perished that way.

If we truly had that attitude, there would be no scientific
discovery or neat technology.
Might as well poke your head in the sand. "I don't understand it
-- it could hurt me, so I won't try."

> -SHADOWDANCER- >

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 17
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 10:03:54 -0700
On Mon, 24 Oct 1994, Sam Thomas wrote:

> >Exactly. So stop fooling around with something you don't understand.
> >Could get yourself perished that way.
> >
> Here Here!

Do you understand how the computer you're using works? Exactly?
Can you make sense of the electrical diagram? Can you follow the circuit
pathways on the chip? How about that CRT Monitor you're staring at? Has
20,000 volts, don't you know?
Better log off. Stop fooling around with something you don't
understand, you could get yourself killed.

> Sinbad Sam

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 18
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 12:23:33 EST
> Do you understand how the computer you're using works?
Exactly?
> Can you make sense of the electrical diagram? Can you follow the
circuit
> pathways on the chip? How about that CRT Monitor you're staring
at? Has
> 20,000 volts, don't you know?
> Better log off. Stop fooling around with something you don't
> understand, you could get yourself killed.


I understand it well. I did not know that the monitor has 20K volts, but
I do know that volts don't hurt you, amps do. I can follow an electrical
diagram(helped my grandfather repair radios and wire houses). But
the question is whether YOU understand. I am not about to start
flaming here. I hope I just avoided that with the apology I sent. But
before you question MY understanding, or that of another like minded
individual, on basic principles, make sure that you understand both
those and the principles that I follow. I will agree, science has taken
some of its rules from natural law, but natural law is too wild for any
laws of man. Our laws are supposed to be civilized, yet these
"civilized" laws don't explain everything, or help those unfortunates
that cannot be helped. I know that I am way off subject, and am not
about to go into uthenasia(sp?) or the death penalty. I just wanted to
let you know where I was coming from. Can we still get along?:=))



Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever gods they worship will smile upon them.
I waltz through shadows with my gods, and I lead!

-SHADOWDANCER-
Message no. 19
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 10:43:38 -0700
On Tue, 25 Oct 1994, Shadowdancer wrote:

> I understand it well. I did not know that the monitor has 20K volts, but
> I do know that volts don't hurt you, amps do. I can follow an electrical

The monitor has anywhere from 2-20 Amps as well, more than enough
to ruin your day. ;-)

> the question is whether YOU understand. I am not about to start
> flaming here. I hope I just avoided that with the apology I sent. But
> before you question MY understanding, or that of another like minded
> individual, on basic principles, make sure that you understand both
> those and the principles that I follow. I will agree, science has taken

Actually, I was not questioning your understanding. I was
following your logic of "don't mess with things you don't understand" to
it's logical conclusion, to point out that the premise is flawed.

> some of its rules from natural law, but natural law is too wild for any
> laws of man. Our laws are supposed to be civilized, yet these

You are implying that we science types, oh, legislate natural
laws or set them in stone or something like that. The whole crux of
science has always been to make a hypothesis about some phenomena, and
then *test* it with observation, adjusting your hypothesis as needed etc.
etc ... you know, the scientific method. ;-)
I think you are confusing social laws with "physical laws" --
which, if I remember the quote are defined as "a hypothesis that has
withstood repeated trials of accuracy and repeatability that it would be
perverse to withold conditional acceptance." There is nothing about
natural laws being "civilized" -- check out turbulent vortex shedding
over a cylinder sometime -- the only criterion is that the "laws" or
hypothesis adequately explain phenomena as observed in the real world. A
powerful test for natural law (like Relativity) is it's ability to
predict phenomena we haven't observed yet, and all their
characteristics. That way, when and if the effect is observed (such as
the gravitational lens effect of the sun) the theory (Relativity) is
proven to be at least partially accurate.

> "civilized" laws don't explain everything, or help those unfortunates
> that cannot be helped. I know that I am way off subject, and am not

Somehow, I don't think the above is in the purview of natural
law, but rather is more in line with societal goals and responsibilities.

> let you know where I was coming from. Can we still get along?:=))

Sure thing. I am interested in a logical exchange of ideas, not
a flame-fest.

> -SHADOWDANCER-

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 20
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 18:29:02 +0000
> Some things will never be explained, classified or codified by a nonmetaphysical
> mind set. Example the "Lights of Marfa" . What about the "light at the
end
> of the
> tunnel" that near death victims describe. But these will be mote points to a
> nonmetaphysical mindset.

What is the "Lights of Marfa".

BTW: There exists an explanation of the light seen by near death victims
that is entirely consistant with modern knowledge of biology and
neurophysiology (sp)

> >> Some things cannot be describe by todays mathematics or current scientific
> >> theory.
> >
> > This doesn't mean that they *cannot* be explicated in terms of
> >scientific principles, but only that we lack the knowledge to currently
> >do so. A good example is quantum gravity.
> >
> But some things just have to be belived rather than explained. Until you alter
> your everything has to fit mindset, progress toward enlightnment will be
> retarded
> greatly.

Gah.
So:
"Hey guys - we can't explain this right now, what do you want to do,
try and explore, investigate and codify it or just believe?"

> Sinbad Sam
> "There none so blind as those who do not see"
>

Well that I will agree with.

GLO


--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Sytems Programmmer | Phone: (UK) 0495 765021
Gwent Health Authority | "Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"
Message no. 21
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 17:57:46 +0000
Adam (I think) wrote:
>
> On Mon, 24 Oct 1994, Sam Thomas wrote:
>
> > >Exactly. So stop fooling around with something you don't understand.
> > >Could get yourself perished that way.
> > >
> > Here Here!
>
> Do you understand how the computer you're using works? Exactly?
> Can you make sense of the electrical diagram? Can you follow the circuit
> pathways on the chip? How about that CRT Monitor you're staring at? Has
> 20,000 volts, don't you know?

Beware!

This message contains hundreds of high velocity subatomic particles!

:-)

GLO

--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Sytems Programmmer | Phone: (UK) 0495 765021
Gwent Health Authority | "Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"
Message no. 22
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 18:08:59 +0000
> those and the principles that I follow. I will agree, science has taken
> some of its rules from natural law, but natural law is too wild for any
> laws of man. Our laws are supposed to be civilized, yet these
> "civilized" laws don't explain everything, or help those unfortunates
> that cannot be helped. I know that I am way off subject, and am not
> about to go into uthenasia(sp?) or the death penalty. I just wanted to
> let you know where I was coming from. Can we still get along?:=))
>
> -SHADOWDANCER-

<choke>

Someone thwap me before I overreact!

Please!

<rummages for flamethrower>

GLO


--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Sytems Programmmer | Phone: (UK) 0495 765021
Gwent Health Authority | "Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"
Message no. 23
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 15:27:47 -0500
>Sinbad writes:
>
>> But some things just have to be belived rather than explained. Until you
alter
>> your everything has to fit mindset, progress toward enlightnment will be
>> retarded
>> greatly.
>
>Hey, you'd make a good shaman, and Adam'd make a good hermetic... :-)
>
>And we all know what they say about arguments between the two different
>types, now, don't we? :-)
>
>--
>Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au
>
Right On Mate!

Lets go out and get Pissed then.

G'day
Sinbad Sam
Message no. 24
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 16:05:41 -0500
> Do you understand how the computer you're using works? Exactly?
>Can you make sense of the electrical diagram? Can you follow the circuit
>pathways on the chip? How about that CRT Monitor you're staring at? Has
>20,000 volts, don't you know?
> Better log off. Stop fooling around with something you don't
>understand, you could get yourself killed.
>
>> Sinbad Sam
>
Yes I do know exactly how my computer works, I have read circuit diagrams
since 1972. Also I can follow circuit pathways on and off chip. By the way
my CRT only has 10,400 volts, I know because I have repaired it. My current
occupation is BioMedical Electronics Technician II. I fix hospital equipment
from coffee makers to MRI's. I also build computers for my hospital. I
understand technology and have for decades.

By the way you can reach FASA.Support at FASA@*****.geis.com I belive. The
ruling by them is that invisiblity effects eyesight, and cybereyes (you paid
essence for it). But that is because it a normally a mana based test.
Improved invisiblity effects both of the above, ultrasound, radar motion
dectors and vehicle grade sensors. That is due to it is physcial based test.
But You must remember that the successes from the casting of the spell only
adds to target number to be seen/detected. So technically it does not make
you truly transparent but people/things do not have good chance to notice
you. You might call it a "ignore me" type of spell, so in this light the
physics of what it does/does not do to light is moot.

Sinbad Sam

"Felix I will not pick the living room. It has that lived in look." ;-)
Message no. 25
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 16:15:57 -0500
>What is the "Lights of Marfa".
>

Gareth,

They are near a town in west Texas in the Big Bend region, the closest town
is Marfa. They are lights that can be seen over range of "Mountains" ,
fairly regularly at night. All known possilbilities have to been pursued to
no avail.

By the way is the light at the end of the tunnel explanation?

Sinbad Sam

"Felix don't throw away that mold it was my pet!!"
Message no. 26
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 15:51:48 -0700
On Tue, 25 Oct 1994, Sam Thomas wrote:

> Yes I do know exactly how my computer works, I have read circuit diagrams
> since 1972. Also I can follow circuit pathways on and off chip. By the way

I was not impugning your technical expertise, but rather noting
the fact that in a modern technological society many of us use device for
which we have little actual understanding, beyond the basics.
Therefore, an argument which cautions against using things one
doesn't understand has rather wider implications than the author probably
noted.
You may have a wide variety of technical expertise, but there are
so many devices in this world that it is nearly impossible for an
individual to understand them all in detail. Therefore, most of us will
be placed in the position of using something we do not truly understand.

> you. You might call it a "ignore me" type of spell, so in this light the
> physics of what it does/does not do to light is moot.

In my tract, I very specifically noted that I was talking about
the physical version of the invisibility spell, not the mana version.

> Sinbad Sam

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 27
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 18:18:41 -0500
Adam,

>On Tue, 25 Oct 1994, Sam Thomas wrote:

>> you. You might call it a "ignore me" type of spell, so in this light
the
>> physics of what it does/does not do to light is moot.
>
> In my tract, I very specifically noted that I was talking about
>the physical version of the invisibility spell, not the mana version.
>
>
My point is that there is no differance between the two except as to
what/who is effected and the drain cost.
Shadowrun page 156. Invisiblity
"....Double the number of successes to get the target number for an
ovserver's Perception Test. A successful Perception Test means that the
invisible person or thing has been "NOTICED". ....."
Shadowrun page 156. Improved Invisiblity
"Like the invisiblity spell, .., except that this spell affects technolgical
sensing devices."

If I can "notice" a person I can shoot to hit/kill/stun him/her. It also
means that both versions of the spell affect cybereyes using thermographic
vision.

Sinbad Sam

"Felix that is not a stink that your nose smells but an wear enhanced socks
with built in support"
Message no. 28
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 18:28:05 EST
Query: What is Ultravision???



Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever gods they worship will smile upon them.
I waltz through shadows with my gods, and I lead!

-SHADOWDANCER-
Message no. 29
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 18:47:10 -0500
>Query: What is Ultravision???
>
>
Ultravision is what Ultraman has. ;-). But seriously it is vision into the
ultraviolet spectrum. Game use only if ultraviolet light source is
available. Thermographic is more useful IMO.
>
>Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever gods they worship will
smile upon them.
>I waltz through shadows with my gods, and I lead!
>
> -SHADOWDANCER-
>
>
Message no. 30
From: Star <KADAMS@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 19:22:29 EST
THWAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!
THWAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!

Feel better now?




A love that is never can always be obtained, a love that
is lost can never be regained. Think of the ones loved,
and smile.



-Star-
Message no. 31
From: Buddha <CCOLLINS@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 19:25:36 EST
Star how are you? My name is the Buddha.
Message no. 32
From: Star <KADAMS@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 20:12:51 EST
Hello Buddah. Nice to make your aquantaince. It is good to see
someone else from this campus besides Shadowdancer, Magister
and myself. It will be intresting to argue with you my friend.
Untill we meet in the shadows...




A love that is never can always be obtained, a love that
is lost can never be regained. Think of the ones loved,
and smile.



-Star-
Message no. 33
From: Buddha <CCOLLINS@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 20:23:55 EST
Hey I am new at this game so give me some time to catch up with the
rest of you experienced players. I will be there soon so do dispair
the Buddha will fair.
Message no. 34
From: Chad Hessoun <chessoun@*******.COLUMBUS.OH.US>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 22:46:49 -0400
> >Query: What is Ultravision???
> >
> >
> Ultravision is what Ultraman has. ;-). But seriously it is vision into the
> ultraviolet spectrum. Game use only if ultraviolet light source is
> available. Thermographic is more useful IMO.

I think you're thinking of a different game (p. 59, 1st ed. DMG, T$R, and
I'll never mention this whole ugly system again).

What I meant by "ultra" was ultrasound, as in the scope/imaging
technology found in SRII. This works by using sound waves (as opposed to
light of any kind) to produce an image. For example, let's say that a
carp, for no particular reason I'm sure, was being forceably waived in
your direction in total darkness. Ultrasound would bounce sound waves off
the carp, and let you "see" it just before it smacked one's skull. Not
unlike bats, and highly preferable to light-based sight (or so I've heard).


-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- C H A D H E S S O U N -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>> itinerant OTISian ArchBishop formerly of Kenyon and Greater Gambier
<<<
>>>>> Everything forbidden is optional... 9 out of 10 heretics agree!
<<<<<
Hail OTIS! Find out more: ighf@******.com or hessoun@******.edu Hail Spode!
Message no. 35
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 18:27:40 +1000
Sinbad Sam writes:

> My point is that there is no differance between the two except as to
> what/who is effected and the drain cost.
> Shadowrun page 156. Invisiblity
> "....Double the number of successes to get the target number for an
> ovserver's Perception Test. A successful Perception Test means that the
> invisible person or thing has been "NOTICED". ....."
> Shadowrun page 156. Improved Invisiblity
> "Like the invisiblity spell, .., except that this spell affects technolgical
> sensing devices."
>
> If I can "notice" a person I can shoot to hit/kill/stun him/her. It also
> means that both versions of the spell affect cybereyes using thermographic
> vision.

This all sounded just fine to me until I got home and actually looked it up
in the book. You forgot the sentance before the one you quoted for
Invisibility, the one that goes "Thermographic vision can still detect body
heat, and the subject is completely tangible and detectable to the senses of
hearing, smell, and so forth."

While I am rather partial to a "notice-me-not" type spell, I don't think
(Improved) Invisibility is this type of spell.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 36
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 09:14:14 +0000
>
> >What is the "Lights of Marfa".
> >
>
> Gareth,
>
> They are near a town in west Texas in the Big Bend region, the closest town
> is Marfa. They are lights that can be seen over range of "Mountains" ,
> fairly regularly at night. All known possilbilities have to been pursued to
> no avail.

Oh, thanks, I wonder what causes them.
Any legends attached to them?

> By the way is the light at the end of the tunnel explanation?

Well, as I understand it:
In a near death experience the oxygen reaching the brain is reduced and
this causes the neurons in the brain to all start firing in a 'storm'
of activity, hence you see a bright light 'cos all the neurons dealing
with sight are firing at once. The tunnel effect is because the eyes are
more sensitive towards the centre than outside, hence more neurons
deal with the centre than the edges, so the light is brighter at the centre,
hence the person 'sees' a tunnel.

I've probably not explained that rigorously, that's the gist of what I can
remember from a TV/radio/book/whatever where I heard about it.

> Sinbad Sam
>
> "Felix don't throw away that mold it was my pet!!"
>

GLO




--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Sytems Programmmer | Phone: (UK) 0495 765021
Gwent Health Authority | "Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"
Message no. 37
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 09:29:20 +0000
>
> THWAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!
> THWAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!
>
> Feel better now?
>

Thanks, I needed that, I've calmed down now.
:-)

>
> A love that is never can always be obtained, a love that
> is lost can never be regained. Think of the ones loved,
> and smile.
>

Like the qoute, BTW.

>
> -Star-
>
>


--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Sytems Programmmer | Phone: (UK) 0495 765021
Gwent Health Authority | "Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"
Message no. 38
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 09:03:29 -0700
On Tue, 25 Oct 1994, Sam Thomas wrote:

> My point is that there is no differance between the two except as to
> what/who is effected and the drain cost.

There certainly is a difference between a physical spell and a
mana spell as regarding the above.
A mana spell affects minds. It would not affect a guard viewing
the character remotely, whereas the physical version would.

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 39
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 15:53:03 -0500
>Sinbad Sam writes:
>
>
>This all sounded just fine to me until I got home and actually looked it up
>in the book. You forgot the sentance before the one you quoted for
>Invisibility, the one that goes "Thermographic vision can still detect body
>heat, and the subject is completely tangible and detectable to the senses of
>hearing, smell, and so forth."
>
>While I am rather partial to a "notice-me-not" type spell, I don't think
>(Improved) Invisibility is this type of spell.
>
>--
>Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au
>
>(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
> N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
> B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
>
>
Yes improved invisiblity is this type of spell. Fasa.support@*****.gies.com

Sinbad Sam
Message no. 40
From: Star <KADAMS@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 18:37:35 EST
>
> >
> > THWAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!
> > THWAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!
> >
> > Feel better now?
> >
>
> Thanks, I needed that, I've calmed down now.
> :-)
>
> >
> > A love that is never can always be obtained, a love that
> > is lost can never be regained. Think of the ones loved,
> > and smile.
> >
>
> Like the qoute, BTW.
>
> >
> > -Star-
> >
> >
>
>
>Thanx.




A love that is never can always be obtained, a love that
is lost can never be regained. Think of the ones loved,
and smile.



-Star-
Message no. 41
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 18:53:25 EST
> I think you're thinking of a different game (p. 59, 1st ed. DMG, T$R,
and
> I'll never mention this whole ugly system again).
>
> What I meant by "ultra" was ultrasound, as in the scope/imaging
> technology found in SRII. This works by using sound waves (as
opposed to
> light of any kind) to produce an image. For example, let's say that a
> carp, for no particular reason I'm sure, was being forceably waived
in
> your direction in total darkness. Ultrasound would bounce sound
waves off
> the carp, and let you "see" it just before it smacked one's skull. Not
> unlike bats, and highly preferable to light-based sight (or so I've
heard).
>
>
I thought you were refering to the ultraviolet spectrum of seeing,
myself. And no, I personally despise the 1st ed rules by the
unmentionable. But what of sonic stunners? Would a device that
produced soundwaves to stun someone effectivly blind a person(or
paranormal) using ultravision?



Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever gods they worship will smile upon them.
I waltz through shadows with my gods, and I lead!

-SHADOWDANCER-
Message no. 42
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 19:36:13 +1000
Sinbad Sam writes:

> >While I am rather partial to a "notice-me-not" type spell, I don't
think
> >(Improved) Invisibility is this type of spell.
>
> Yes improved invisiblity is this type of spell. Fasa.support@*****.gies.com

Ah, so this is a FASA (no $) clarification. Well it seems like it is a
pretty contradictory one to me, but oh well, that's FASA for you.

Shadowdancer writes:

> I thought you were refering to the ultraviolet spectrum of seeing,
> myself. And no, I personally despise the 1st ed rules by the
> unmentionable. But what of sonic stunners? Would a device that
> produced soundwaves to stun someone effectivly blind a person(or
> paranormal) using ultravision?

Would that not depend on the frequency of the sound? If the frequency of
the stunner corresponded to the frequency of detection, then the person
attempting to "see" would be overwhealmed and wind up blinded. Better check
that explanation with the physics geeks around here though.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 43
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 00:09:59 -0400
Please keep the flames to a minimum. Once you've lived through as
many flamewars as I have (and news.groups is full of 'em), you'll fully
understand that personal insults do more harm than good.
Not that it doesn't feel good to tell somebody what you really
think of them, of course...just don't do it in public.

---------
J.D. Falk <jdfalk@****.com>
"Will eat for food."
Message no. 44
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermographics and Improved Invisibility
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 00:49:08 -0500
On Wed, 26 Oct 1994, J.D. Falk wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Did everybody else just get this one now, as well?

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Thermographics and Improved Invisibility, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!