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From:	Ed equine@******.net
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Mon, 10 May 1999 01:56:39 -0500

From:	Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Mon, 10 May 1999 09:45:48 +0200

Message no. 2 Ed wrote:
>
> Can someone with Thermo vision spot a person using the invisible spell?
> >From what I read in the rule book it would be yes but then I could be
> reading it wrong.
>

Operating from memory here (my SR2 is currently in another city...) but
somebody with thermo eyes Won't see somebody under the invisible spell,
although somebody watching through a camera would. I think the spell
works by convincing you that the target isn't there. OTOH, it can't
fool machines, so if you were watching through a CCTV security setup,
you *would* see them (thermo or not). Improved Invisibility, though,
makes you invisible in the true sense of the word, but perhaps
thermographics would expose you... I'm not sure about this.

> Ed
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Mon, 10 May 1999 10:37:49 +0200

Message no. 3 According to Ed, at 1:56 on 10 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> Can someone with Thermo vision spot a person using the invisible spell?
> From what I read in the rule book it would be yes but then I could be
> reading it wrong.

In second edition, yes. The rules specificially stated that thermographic
was able to see through Invisibility.

In third edition, though, I would say no. The rules for the spell can be
interpreted either way (mainly due to the "normal vision" bit), but since
the explicit mention of thermographics is gone, I consider Invisibility to
work against that as well as against non-thermographic vision.

--
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From:	Kelson Kelson@****.net
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Mon, 10 May 1999 03:42:28 -0500

Message no. 4 > From: Allen Versfeld <moe@*******.com>
> Date: Monday, May 10, 1999 2:45 AM

> Operating from memory here (my SR2 is currently in another city...) but
> somebody with thermo eyes Won't see somebody under the invisible spell,
> although somebody watching through a camera would. I think the spell
> works by convincing you that the target isn't there. OTOH, it can't
> fool machines, so if you were watching through a CCTV security setup,
> you *would* see them (thermo or not). Improved Invisibility, though,
> makes you invisible in the true sense of the word, but perhaps
> thermographics would expose you... I'm not sure about this.

> Allen Versfeld

Actually, IIRC, you CAN spot somone with thermographic vision because the
Invisibility spell only affects light (it bends light to make you
invisible). Heat isn't affected, so you still give off body heat, etc. I
treat this like the Predator effect in that you can sometimes make out a
blur with normal vision (this is part of what Perception tests can reveal
in addition to scent, etc.).

However, I could be wrong about whether thermo will allow you to see the
heat of a person under an invis spell.

Justin

From:	Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Mon, 10 May 1999 10:57:28 +0200

Message no. 5 On Monday, May 10, 1999 8:57 AM, Ed [SMTP:equine@******.net] wrote:
> Can someone with Thermo vision spot a person using the invisible
> spell?
> From what I read in the rule book it would be yes but then I could be
> reading it wrong.
>

Yes he can, I had the same question a while ago and following was the
answer I received from Mike Mulvihill: "Invisibility means that the
person cannot be seen of the visiblespectrum. Ultrasound, thermographic
and other electronic means (including cameras)cansee them. In Improved
Invibility electronic devices could not see themin thevisibile
spectrum."
Sven :)
SRCG v0.2 SR1! SR2++ SR3++ h b++>+++ B>+ UB->++ IE+(-) RN+(-) dk++>+++
sa- ma++ sh++ ad+ ri+ mc- m+ gm+>++(+++) M-(+)

From:	GMPax@*.com GMPax@*.com
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Mon, 10 May 1999 14:05:14 EDT

Message no. 6 In a message dated 5/10/99 5:12:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Kelson@****.net
writes:

<< Actually, IIRC, you CAN spot somone with thermographic vision because the
Invisibility spell only affects light (it bends light to make you
invisible). Heat isn't affected, so you still give off body heat, etc. I
treat this like the Predator effect in that you can sometimes make out a
blur with normal vision (this is part of what Perception tests can reveal
in addition to scent, etc.). >>

BUT ... heat _is_ light, specifically Infrared wavelength light, _just_
outside the range of visible spectra to our normal, uncybered eyes.

IMO, if thermographic cybereyes paid for by a mage count as "normal vision"
for spellcasting, and considering that for Dwarves and Trolls, thermographics
IS inside the "normal visible spectrum" ... then thermographics gained from
cybereyes, or by being the right sort of metatype, and _maybe_ by spell or
such ... should be fooled by Invisibility.

Basically, if someone casts Invisibility ... then, looking with your own eyes
will NOT see them, regardless of WHAT spectra your particular eyes pick up.
You need a camera, period.

With Improved Invisibility, you are just SOL.

HOWEVER ... I do allow (very very very difficult) checks to detect the
"shimmer effect," a la Predator, for invisible objects (by either spell, and
by other means), as few spellcasters, etc, could manage a PERFECT effect ...
without going, _themselves_, blind: if you wapr ALL the light away from
yourself, you will <a> have nothing reach your eyes, and potentially cook
yourself in the body heat the spell is warping BACK AT YOU, to prevent
detection by those means.

Sean
GM Pax

From:	Fredrik Holmqvist pagan@*******.swipnet.se
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Mon, 10 May 1999 21:06:12 +0200

Message no. 7 At 01:56 1999-05-10 -0500, you wrote:
>Can someone with Thermo vision spot a person using the invisible spell?
>>From what I read in the rule book it would be yes but then I could be
>reading it wrong.

In my oppinoin no. Since it is an illusion that is to fool the part of the
brain that tells you that there is somehting there. It will still do so
even if you are using Thermo or Light enhancement. The spell is still
effecting that lil part of the brain that instruct the rest of the brain to
react to that info.

MHO
//Honken

From:	Ed equine@******.net
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Mon, 10 May 1999 14:17:00 -0500

From:	dghost@**.com dghost@**.com
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Mon, 10 May 1999 23:14:30 -0500

Message no. 9 On Mon, 10 May 1999 01:56:39 -0500 Ed <equine@******.net> writes:
>Can someone with Thermo vision spot a person using the invisible spell?
>From what I read in the rule book it would be yes but then I could be
>reading it wrong.

Invisibility affects normal vision only. The way I handle it is:
Invisibility is a Mana spell and removes your image from the viewers'
minds and thus affects thermo and others. Improved Invisibility, being a
Physical Spell, manipulates the visible light spectrum and thus only
affects sight based on the visbile light spectrum. It's a fun ruling
that gives a reason to take regular invisibility besides the reduced
drain. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

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From:	Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Tue, 11 May 1999 15:22:23 +1000

Message no. 10 D. Ghost writes:
> Invisibility affects normal vision only. The way I handle it is:
> Invisibility is a Mana spell and removes your image from the viewers'
> minds and thus affects thermo and others. Improved Invisibility, being a
> Physical Spell, manipulates the visible light spectrum and thus only
> affects sight based on the visbile light spectrum. It's a fun ruling
> that gives a reason to take regular invisibility besides the reduced
> drain. :)

Note that Improved Invisibility should act as armour against a laser weapon.
It'll be a GM call as to if the laser would affect targets behind the
invisible person. Personally, I'd say no, but that's just 'cause I want the
laser detection system not to be affected by Improved Invisibility (the
spell scatters the light beam, and doesn't reassemble it properly. This
causes the light to become non-coherent, less focused, and weaker, and that
trips the sensors...)

Mind you, most people probably don't have lasers in their campaigns, anyway.
Consider this idea a private suggestion to K, if you will. :)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

From:	Cybertroll cybertroll@******.crosswinds.net
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Wed, 12 May 1999 11:11:34 +0300

Message no. 11 dghost@****.com wrote:
>
> On Mon, 10 May 1999 01:56:39 -0500 Ed <equine@******.net> writes:
> >Can someone with Thermo vision spot a person using the invisible spell?
> >From what I read in the rule book it would be yes but then I could be
> >reading it wrong.
>
> Invisibility affects normal vision only. The way I handle it is:
> Invisibility is a Mana spell and removes your image from the viewers'
> minds and thus affects thermo and others. Improved Invisibility, being a
> Physical Spell, manipulates the visible light spectrum and thus only
> affects sight based on the visbile light spectrum. It's a fun ruling
> that gives a reason to take regular invisibility besides the reduced
> drain. :)

Well imo human and metahuman vision is considered normal... The
invisibility spell fools the sense of vision. And the sense of Vision
includes normal, thermographic and low light vision since it is natural
and not electronic. Note that this includes also Cybereyes since the
character has payed essence for them and they are part of himself. Imo
opinion u can't spot an invisible person through either natural or
cybered thermographical vision...

Cybertroll

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From:	grahamdrew grahamdrew@*********.com
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Mon, 17 May 1999 17:33:35 -0400

Message no. 12 <snipped everything because it wasn't of any particular relevance>

This whole thread has brought up something that may have been delt with
long ago, but I can't remeber the anser to.

If I have thermographic cybereyes, it's generally accepted that I have
to "switch modes" to go from normal vision to thermographic, right? I'm
looking into an entirely diffrent spectrum.

What if I had natural thermographic vision? I mean this as if I were a
dwarf/troll, and just because I'm a happy little metahuman, I have
thermographic vision granted to me by race. Do I still have to "switch
modes" or is it simultanious somehow? Would there be any outward signs
of me looking into thermographic to someone just looking at me? from
Astral?

--
If a device is designed to do one thing really well, it can be
redesigned to do many things badly.
-Paranoia

From:	Kate . liliths_childe@*******.com
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Mon, 17 May 1999 21:41:54 GMT

Message no. 13 >If I have thermographic cybereyes, it's generally accepted that I have to
>"switch modes" to go from normal vision to thermographic, right? I'm
>looking into an entirely diffrent spectrum.

These comments make no sense in the Real World(tm). It's
the same spectrum - The darned thing is a continuous grouping
of quantumly-defined, distinct frequencies IIRC (school was
a while ago).

Kate

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From:	Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Mon, 17 May 1999 16:42:08 -0500

Message no. 14 > <snipped everything because it wasn't of any particular relevance>
>
> This whole thread has brought up something that may have been delt with
> long ago, but I can't remeber the anser to.
>
> If I have thermographic cybereyes, it's generally accepted that I have
> to "switch modes" to go from normal vision to thermographic, right? I'm
> looking into an entirely diffrent spectrum.
>
> What if I had natural thermographic vision? I mean this as if I were a
> dwarf/troll, and just because I'm a happy little metahuman, I have
> thermographic vision granted to me by race. Do I still have to "switch
> modes" or is it simultanious somehow? Would there be any outward signs
> of me looking into thermographic to someone just looking at me? from
> Astral?
>
From my understanding of SR and from several novels I've read, it is
simultaneous. Metahumans see "regular" with the overlay of thermographic (or
lowlight, etc.). I guess that means they would see most humans with a
certain ruddy glow (from heat signatures).

From:	grahamdrew grahamdrew@*********.com
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Mon, 17 May 1999 18:42:36 -0400

Message no. 15 Kate . wrote:
>
> >If I have thermographic cybereyes, it's generally accepted that I have to
> >"switch modes" to go from normal vision to thermographic, right? I'm
> >looking into an entirely diffrent spectrum.
>
> These comments make no sense in the Real World(tm). It's
> the same spectrum - The darned thing is a continuous grouping
> of quantumly-defined, distinct frequencies IIRC (school was
> a while ago).
>
> Kate

Same frequency, yea, but it just depends on what section of it your
trying to concentrate on. Sound basically is all the same spectrum,
it's all there bunched up together, but don't you usually have to stop
for a second and concentrate on that really anoying high-pitched noise
to figure out what it is?

The question is not if it's all comming in. Your always getting the
info, it's just how you use it.

--
If a device is designed to do one thing really well, it can be
redesigned to do many things badly.
-Paranoia

From:	GMPax@*.com GMPax@*.com
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Mon, 17 May 1999 18:41:42 EDT

Message no. 16 In a message dated 5/17/99 5:36:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
grahamdrew@*********.com writes:

> This whole thread has brought up something that may have been delt with
> long ago, but I can't remeber the anser to.
>
> If I have thermographic cybereyes, it's generally accepted that I have
> to "switch modes" to go from normal vision to thermographic, right? I'm
> looking into an entirely diffrent spectrum.
>
> What if I had natural thermographic vision? I mean this as if I were a
> dwarf/troll, and just because I'm a happy little metahuman, I have
> thermographic vision granted to me by race. Do I still have to "switch
> modes" or is it simultanious somehow? Would there be any outward signs
> of me looking into thermographic to someone just looking at me? from
> Astral?

According to the discussion (IIRC) in SR2's Cybertechnology ... yes, the
metatypes see in Thermo AND normal light. The description they gave stated
that trolls see normally, with a "transparent overlay" of the thermal values
on top of the normal image.

And, technically, NO, you don't switch over to thermal. The technological
thermal-imaging systems worke similarly (from the same section of the same
book), by overlaying a thermal-value image over a low-quality lowlight image.
Not _quite_ a pure thermographic image a la Predator (the movie).

Sean
GM Pax

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Tue, 18 May 1999 11:40:34 +0200

Message no. 17 According to Kate ., at 21:41 on 17 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> >If I have thermographic cybereyes, it's generally accepted that I have to
> >"switch modes" to go from normal vision to thermographic, right? I'm
> >looking into an entirely diffrent spectrum.
>
> These comments make no sense in the Real World(tm). It's
> the same spectrum - The darned thing is a continuous grouping
> of quantumly-defined, distinct frequencies IIRC (school was
> a while ago).

I think what whoever wrote the first paragraph above meant is looking at
two different parts of the spectrum. It should be possible to overlay an
image taken in the visible part of the spectrum with one taken in the IR
part, but I guess the real question is what the result will be -- an image
that has the best of both worlds, or one big mess that you can't make
heads or tails of?

From a game POV, of course, the reason you have to switch is because there
is no column on the Visibility Table for "Combination of normal vision and
thermographic."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I can't help it...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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From:	GMPax@*.com GMPax@*.com
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Tue, 18 May 1999 05:46:04 EDT

Message no. 18 In a message dated 5/18/99 5:40:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

<< From a game POV, of course, the reason you have to switch is because there
is no column on the Visibility Table for "Combination of normal vision and
thermographic." >>

Well, given the definition of Thermographic sight in Cybertechnology, it
makes sense that the thermal aspects are either >off< or >on< ... so I guess
that IS a form of switching.

But note, nonthermal data IS still in your "field of view" ... again, a
transparent overlay of the thermograph color bands. Think colored light
sourcing on steroids, a la Quake and company. :-)

Sean
GM Pax

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Jane van Roekel)
Subject:	thermographic vision
Date:	Thu Jul 12 00:00:02 2001

Message no. 19 Hi guys,

I was watching TV the other night and there was a scene with some military
types using infra-red sights? scopes? something, to follow the movement of
someone on the other side of a door. They could see her quite clearly with
the IR gadget. Was this dramatic license or can they really do that?

jane
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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (sven)
Subject:	thermographic vision
Date:	Thu Jul 12 04:55:05 2001

Message no. 20 Jane van Roekel wrote:
>
> I was watching TV the other night and there was a scene with
> some military
> types using infra-red sights? scopes? something, to follow
> the movement of
> someone on the other side of a door. They could see her quite
> clearly with
> the IR gadget. Was this dramatic license or can they really do that?

I think it was mainly used for cinematic effects and suspense.

(IMHO) IR woundn't be able to penetrate walls or any opaque materials,
you'd have to use some kind of X-Ray based scanner for that.

just my thoughts,

-sven ;)
--

From:	shadowrn@*******.com (shadowrn@*******.com)
Subject:	thermographic vision
Date:	Thu Jul 12 12:35:01 2001

Message no. 21 On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 04:04:32 -0000 "Jane van Roekel"
<kadjari@*******.com> writes:
> Hi guys,
>
> I was watching TV the other night and there was a scene with some
> military
> types using infra-red sights? scopes? something, to follow the
> movement of
> someone on the other side of a door. They could see her quite
> clearly with
> the IR gadget. Was this dramatic license or can they really do
> that?

No. The heat does not clearly pass though the door to allow a clear
image. The only way to see someone though a door with IR is to wait until
that person heats up the door enough to show th heat pattern on the other
side. That would require a person to sit still against a door for a while
and will las for a while after the person left. Now, I understand that
reflected X-Rays would show great detail - something like the film Eraser
with Arnold Schwartzeneger (sp?).

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	thermographic vision
Date:	Thu Jul 12 13:25:06 2001

Message no. 22 According to Jane van Roekel, on Thu, 12 Jul 2001 the word on the street was...

> I was watching TV the other night and there was a scene with some military
> types using infra-red sights? scopes? something, to follow the movement of
> someone on the other side of a door. They could see her quite clearly with
> the IR gadget. Was this dramatic license or can they really do that?

That's a Hollywoodism that far too many people take to be the truth... Yes,
you can (sort of) see through walls with IR (infrared) viewers, but only if
whoever is on the other side, is 1) leaning against the wall, and 2) has
been standing (leaning) still for long enough to heat up the section of
wall being leaned against. SR's thermographic vision would be able to do
this, but you can't see through walls. In fact, pure thermographic vision
likely wouldn't let you see through windows...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
A bad day fishing is still better than a good day dying.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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From:	elventear@***********.net.pe (Pepe Barbe)
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Tue, 11 Feb 2003 22:26:58 -0500

Message no. 23 Hi,

How do you rule Thermographic Vision usually? Can it be turned on at will,
or is it automatic, or always turned on? Depends if it is Natural or Cyber?

Thanks,
Pepe

From:	sandman220@****.com (joshua T sanders)
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:02:10 -0500

Message no. 24 I've always ruled it like this:

Natural: always on. Functions as widespectrum vision around the edges of
an object... sort of like a visual aura... natural colors and other
images not distorted.

Cyber: free action to activate/deactivate : Full thermographic only.
Overlays over regular vision, obscuring natural colors and other images
that might produce heat.

both have different advantages/disadvantages, note also that they have
different penalty charts in inclement conditions.
typically, an Adept with Enhanced Sense(thermographic vision) is given
the natural kind in my games as well.

helpfully,

Joshua Sanders

sandman220@****.com

jts7@****.edu
================================================================="NO! Azradel, We
don't hold old ladies at swordpoint"

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From:	sandman220@****.com (joshua T sanders)
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:03:23 -0500

Message no. 25 >>>>>Pepe is on log as having stated:
>How do you rule Thermographic Vision usually? Can it be turned on at
will,
>or is it automatic, or always turned on? Depends if it is Natural or
Cyber?
<<<<<

I've always ruled it like this:

Natural: always on. Functions as widespectrum vision around the edges of
an object... sort of like a visual aura... natural colors and other
images not distorted.

Cyber: free action to activate/deactivate : Full thermographic only.
Overlays over regular vision, obscuring natural colors and other images
that might produce heat.

both have different advantages/disadvantages, note also that they have
different penalty charts in inclement conditions.
typically, an Adept with Enhanced Sense(thermographic vision) is given
the natural kind in my games as well.

helpfully,

Joshua Sanders

sandman220@****.com

jts7@****.edu
================================================================="NO! Azradel, We
don't hold old ladies at swordpoint"

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From:	Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject:	Thermographic Vision
Date:	Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:23:19 +0100

Message no. 26 According to Pepe Barbe, on Wed, 12 Feb 2003 the word on the street was...

> How do you rule Thermographic Vision usually? Can it be turned on at
> will, or is it automatic, or always turned on? Depends if it is Natural
> or Cyber?

Natural is always on, while if it's cyberware it can be turned on and off
as a Free Action. For an adept power, I'd say it depends on your
interpretation, but mine is that it's on permanently as well.

--
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Wat wil die man in hemelsnaam?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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