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Message no. 1
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:14:12 +1000
> > > On another topic, has anybody seriously considered the rules governing
> > > thermographic vision. I mean that if the movie 'Predator' is anything to
> > > go upon, thermographic vision is not just a vision enhancement.
> > >
> > Depends on whether you have to operate in the visual spectrum at the same
> > time. If you're just collecting thermographic visual signals, then you
> > can give a false-colour map depending either on the wavelength or the
> > intensity of the observed radiation.
>
> Shouldn't there be probs. with this?
>
Some.... the false colour maps are the kind you see in movies like Navy
Seals and things like that. The one point I should make is that Thermo
does *not* travel though bricks like you see in the movie.

I can't remember Predator, or I'd tell you what that would look like.

> > If you're trying to use normal vision at the same time, then it gets a
> > little bit more tricky, because you still have to see the other natural
> > colours, and a false colour overlay would be confusing. If you're trying
> > to see normal and thermo at the same time, the heat emisions would look a
> > bit like a pale red tinge around or coming from hot objects.
>
> Target number modifiers and etc right?
>
Only in the dark..... It'd just be like seeing everything that is hot in
shades of red, or red mixed with the normal colour of the object. I'd say
that natural thermo would work this way, and would Cybereyes that operate
in the visual region at the same time.

Thermo goggles and sights would not, instead using the false colour scheme.

Keep in mind that it is possible to be flash-blinded on thermo vision,
especially if it is organic-based (natural) Large heat sources and
explosions can do that. There is also glare to take account of; You
aren't going to pick out that person standing next to the bonfire on
your thermo vision unles you've got flare comp.

> > It'd be interesting to speculate if Thermo-sensitve eyes could see the
> > violet region of the spectrum, and what other colours would actually
> > 'look' like it they could.
>
> I thought with thermo vision, it was more of the cyber converting into
> the normal spectrum.
>
Yeah, but you've got to shift the regions where each colour appears, or
you would not be able to distinguish red and hot objects from each
other....."Nice red ball!! Ouch! Oh, it's a light globe."

> > I'm not sure about the depth perception. I find it hard to judge the
> > distance of any source of light.
> >
> I'm not talking about judging towards a source of light as apposed to
> judging the distance to anything.
>
(Here's my stab in the dark on this)

With goggles, yes; They only take in one image most of the time, or they
overlay two images into one to improve the intensity or resolution. You
loos a lot of your depth perception because of this.

Cybereyes and natural thermo work differently, because you still keep your
natural depth perception form your tow eyes..

> > > Another point is stealth. Isn't it alot more difficult to hide with cammo
> > > from a guy with thermo vision? How do thieves and assassin types get
> > > around without being seen then? Is there some sort of cammo which
> > > prevents thermo from spotting anything?
> > >
> > Yes indeedly.... you are a source of IR radiation, which kind of makes it
> > equivalent to trying to sneak around with a torch on.
>
> Exactly my point. My last run (I was not GMing :)), we had a Cyberpunk GM
> who used a IR suit from it. Personally though, I don't like Cyberpunk or
> using/converting them into Shadowrun stuff. We need something unique.
>
That's the problem.... I can't think of many things that would work.
Thermo has to be the worst investion ever to hit a shadowrunner.

> You read the Shadowrun novels? I read Striper and thought it was
> appauling. I thought FASA was falling into the TSR problems of novels too
> heavily based on a game - this makes for bad writing and bad novels. How
> are the rest of the Shadowrun novels?
>
To put it mildy; Variable.
Burning Bright was good.
Into the Shadows was excellent.
Anything be N. Findley (may he R.I.P.) is worth reading
Black Madonna sucked big time.

I can't really recall any of the other ones well enough to comment, but
I've read them all.

If you can get hold of them for free, read them... but other wise don't
bother. I haven't read the newest one, but it looks allright.

The books give you valuable insights into the plot developments in SR.

>
> PS. Noticed you just emailed me. Must mean you got a modem unlike Jestyr.
> Listen, we can actually communicate through the internet if we time
> things right and hence collaborate on Australia faster. Are you using a
> UNIX shell like I am? ie not Netscape If you are have you heard of a Talk
> Daemon, we can use it to talk!
>
I'm currently at University.... I live on campus, and I've got nothing
better to do. We'll have to see what we can do with getting together.

I'm using Pine (unfortunately) via Windows 3.1 which runs off a MS-DOS sytem
layered over what I think is a Unix shell.

Hey, go check out the FASA homepages; They updated the SR section today.

I'll talk to you in a while; Just got to check the rest of the mail box.

Bleach
Message no. 2
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:41:11 +1000
On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Marty wrote:

> > > > On another topic, has anybody seriously considered the rules governing
> > > > thermographic vision. I mean that if the movie 'Predator' is anything
to
> > > > go upon, thermographic vision is not just a vision enhancement.
> > > >
> > > Depends on whether you have to operate in the visual spectrum at the same
> > > time. If you're just collecting thermographic visual signals, then you
> > > can give a false-colour map depending either on the wavelength or the
> > > intensity of the observed radiation.
> >
> > Shouldn't there be probs. with this?
> >
> Some.... the false colour maps are the kind you see in movies like Navy
> Seals and things like that. The one point I should make is that Thermo
> does *not* travel though bricks like you see in the movie.
>
> I can't remember Predator, or I'd tell you what that would look like.
>
Yeah, I know you can't see through walls!

> > > If you're trying to use normal vision at the same time, then it gets a
> > > little bit more tricky, because you still have to see the other natural
> > > colours, and a false colour overlay would be confusing. If you're trying
> > > to see normal and thermo at the same time, the heat emisions would look a
> > > bit like a pale red tinge around or coming from hot objects.
> >
> > Target number modifiers and etc right?
> >
> Only in the dark..... It'd just be like seeing everything that is hot in
> shades of red, or red mixed with the normal colour of the object. I'd say
> that natural thermo would work this way, and would Cybereyes that operate
> in the visual region at the same time.
>
> Thermo goggles and sights would not, instead using the false colour scheme.
>
> Keep in mind that it is possible to be flash-blinded on thermo vision,
> especially if it is organic-based (natural) Large heat sources and
> explosions can do that. There is also glare to take account of; You
> aren't going to pick out that person standing next to the bonfire on
> your thermo vision unles you've got flare comp.
>
The prob. with thermo vision is that it makes Shadowrun slightly boring.
Every street sam I know seems to get thermo eyes and flare comp. It's
very repetitive.

In the SR rules, thermo vision beats everything everytime! I just think
that new modifiers should be introduced to balance out thermo vision. I
think it is a major disturbance on the balance of the game, but one which
is so engrained that it cannot be removed, only modified. Any suggestions?

> > > It'd be interesting to speculate if Thermo-sensitve eyes could see the
> > > violet region of the spectrum, and what other colours would actually
> > > 'look' like it they could.
> >
> > I thought with thermo vision, it was more of the cyber converting into
> > the normal spectrum.
> >
> Yeah, but you've got to shift the regions where each colour appears, or
> you would not be able to distinguish red and hot objects from each
> other....."Nice red ball!! Ouch! Oh, it's a light globe."

Yeah, transposition of the wavelength of the light into visible light
range! Has anybody considered if thermo enhancements for eyes can be
turned on and off? Comments?

>
> > > I'm not sure about the depth perception. I find it hard to judge the
> > > distance of any source of light.
> > >
> > I'm not talking about judging towards a source of light as apposed to
> > judging the distance to anything.
> >
> (Here's my stab in the dark on this)
>
> With goggles, yes; They only take in one image most of the time, or they
> overlay two images into one to improve the intensity or resolution. You
> loos a lot of your depth perception because of this.
>
> Cybereyes and natural thermo work differently, because you still keep your
> natural depth perception form your tow eyes..
>
I don't want to blab any medical knowledge here so I'll give the very
fundamental basics here that is fairly common knowledge. The eyes see
depth by comparing in the brain, the slight differences in the visual
field of both eyes. Hence, the brain actually creates a 3D world from two
2D ones. So the question arises, can cybereyes do this? Are cybereyes
exact replicates of the human eye except it is made of some plastic or
alloy? The way the brain does the depth perception is very complex and
stems throughout the brain (or so we think) but focusing mainly on the
visual cortex. Can cyber do this? I do agree with the goggles though.

This brings up another point - the human eye and brain can only cope with
a very small part of our visual field in perspective. Can cybereyes be
such that the whole visual field is considered? If so, how can the cyber
be integrated so well into the brain to accomplish this? Is cyber so
small that it can be fit in? The brain is so compact that to increase
this perceptive visual field would increase the size of our brains
significantly. Oh, and don't use the argument that we only use 10% of our
brains and some cyber allows us to use more for our visual input. The
brain cannot function that way.

> > > > Another point is stealth. Isn't it alot more difficult to hide with
cammo
> > > > from a guy with thermo vision? How do thieves and assassin types get
> > > > around without being seen then? Is there some sort of cammo which
> > > > prevents thermo from spotting anything?
> > > >
> > > Yes indeedly.... you are a source of IR radiation, which kind of makes it
> > > equivalent to trying to sneak around with a torch on.
> >
> > Exactly my point. My last run (I was not GMing :)), we had a Cyberpunk GM
> > who used a IR suit from it. Personally though, I don't like Cyberpunk or
> > using/converting them into Shadowrun stuff. We need something unique.
> >
> That's the problem.... I can't think of many things that would work.
> Thermo has to be the worst investion ever to hit a shadowrunner.
>
My point exactly.

<SNIP>
>
> Bleach
>
Shaman
Message no. 3
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 22:05:15 +1000
> > I can't remember Predator, or I'd tell you what that would look like.
> >
> Yeah, I know you can't see through walls!
>
You should see the trouble I had trying to get some of the people I know
to accept that....

> The prob. with thermo vision is that it makes Shadowrun slightly boring.
> Every street sam I know seems to get thermo eyes and flare comp. It's
> very repetitive.
>
Yeah, I agree..... That's why my character doesn't have thermo. There
are occasions when I can actually be blind.

> In the SR rules, thermo vision beats everything everytime! I just think
> that new modifiers should be introduced to balance out thermo vision. I
> think it is a major disturbance on the balance of the game, but one which
> is so engrained that it cannot be removed, only modified. Any suggestions?
>
Ditto.... No idea on the possible things to do, though.

> > Yeah, but you've got to shift the regions where each colour appears, or
> > you would not be able to distinguish red and hot objects from each
> > other....."Nice red ball!! Ouch! Oh, it's a light globe."
>
> Yeah, transposition of the wavelength of the light into visible light
> range! Has anybody considered if thermo enhancements for eyes can be
> turned on and off? Comments?
>
It'd depend on the GM and whether the enhancement is natural....

There could concievably be a conflict between the low-light and the
thermo packages in a set of cyber eyes, mostly in the question of how to
display all the information in one visual field.

That would imply that one or both of the enhancements *could* be turned
off..... But if they can be, you loose some of the possibilites for
flash-blinding characters stupid enough not to get flare comp.
Message no. 4
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:27:46 -0700
<SNIP>
> In the SR rules, thermo vision beats everything everytime!

Erm. According to my GM's screen Partial lighting gives the following
modifiers:

Normal +4
Natural Lowlight +0
Cyber Lowlight +2
Natural Thermo +2
Cyber Thermo +2

Seems to me, Lowlight beats out there.

Also, in Mist natural Lowlight is the same as thermo.

Granted, on the others Thermo is probably better. But just think about
being a Thermo user when that hell-blast goes off. ;o)

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 5
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:46:03 +1000
> Granted, on the others Thermo is probably better. But just think about
> being a Thermo user when that hell-blast goes off. ;o)
>
Flare comp works against that.
Message no. 6
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:04:13 -0700
> > Granted, on the others Thermo is probably better. But just think about
> > being a Thermo user when that hell-blast goes off. ;o)
> >
> Flare comp works against that.

I would probably allow Flare comp to work like it does against a Flash Pak,
halving the penalties. Possibly also dependant on the force of the spell.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 7
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 08:10:41 -0600
Loki wrote:
|
|<SNIP>
|> In the SR rules, thermo vision beats everything everytime!
|
|Erm. According to my GM's screen Partial lighting gives the following
|modifiers:
|
|Normal +4
|Natural Lowlight +0
|Cyber Lowlight +2
|Natural Thermo +2
|Cyber Thermo +2
|
|Seems to me, Lowlight beats out there.

Now look in the Blue Book and check to see if the numbers
there are different from the numbers on your GM Screen.
They were in mine. The numbers in the Book seemed to be
more appropriate, so I wrote on my GM screen. And while
you're at it you might want to check the rest of the GM
screen, some of the recoil modifiers were incorrect on mine
too.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 8
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 13:33:01 -0700
<SNIP SNIP>

> Granted, on the others Thermo is probably better. But just think about
> being a Thermo user when that hell-blast goes off. ;o)

Can we say FLARE COMP??!!

--Tom--
Message no. 9
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 16:02:03 +0000
> > Granted, on the others Thermo is probably better. But just think about
> > being a Thermo user when that hell-blast goes off. ;o)
> >
> Flare comp works against that.

How, pray tell? flare comp won't change the heat levels caused by
the hellblast.


--Droopy
Message no. 10
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 13:31:07 -0700
> > > Granted, on the others Thermo is probably better. But just think about
> > > being a Thermo user when that hell-blast goes off. ;o)
> > >
> > Flare comp works against that.
>
> How, pray tell? flare comp won't change the heat levels caused by
> the hellblast.

Well... hmm.... let me see. Flare comp works by cutting out/down
the levels of input to your eyes... If you have flare comp, and you get
flahsed by visible light, the FC will cut out the high levels. If you
are using thermo, and you get flash by a really hot source, the FC will
cut out the really high levels of input... it doesn't matter what the
thing is, the principle is just the same.


---Tom---
Message no. 11
From: Steven Ratkovich <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 01:13:16 -0500
>> > Granted, on the others Thermo is probably better. But just think about
>> > being a Thermo user when that hell-blast goes off. ;o)
>> >
>> Flare comp works against that.
>
>How, pray tell? flare comp won't change the heat levels caused by
>the hellblast.
>
I was wondering the same thing... Flare Comp is used with Low-Light vision
to prevent sudden bursts of light to be intesified to dangerous levels and
blinding the player... Even with Flare comp, a sudden burst will blind you
for a few seconds, till things adjust... It just won't damage your eyes,
cyber or otherwise...

-Bull-the-doesn't-play-with-electronic-gadgets-decker-turned-GM
Message no. 12
From: Guardian <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 15:07:02 +1000
> >> > Granted, on the others Thermo is probably better. But just think about
> >> > being a Thermo user when that hell-blast goes off. ;o)
> >> >
> >> Flare comp works against that.
> >
> >How, pray tell? flare comp won't change the heat levels caused by
> >the hellblast.
> >
> I was wondering the same thing... Flare Comp is used with Low-Light vision
> to prevent sudden bursts of light to be intesified to dangerous levels and
> blinding the player... Even with Flare comp, a sudden burst will blind you
> for a few seconds, till things adjust... It just won't damage your eyes,
> cyber or otherwise...

IMHO, Flare Comp dampens the effect of sudden spikes of light (any kind,
including infrared, which is heat) somewhere between the lens (natural or
cyber) and the brain. Current technology (ie 1996) can compensate a
thermographic imager for flares in heat, so I don't see why it couldn't be
applied to thermovision in 205*.

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's called tourist season, so why can't we shoot them?"
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 13
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:15:03 +1000
> > > Granted, on the others Thermo is probably better. But just think about
> > > being a Thermo user when that hell-blast goes off. ;o)
> > >
> > Flare comp works against that.
>
> How, pray tell? flare comp won't change the heat levels caused by
> the hellblast.
>
But it will compensate. Flare comp doesn't change the light levels from
a torch either. Thermo radiation is just EM radiation at a different
wavelength.

I don't feel like going into a technical explanation right now, but
perhaps someone else will oblige me?
Message no. 14
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:17:52 +1000
> >How, pray tell? flare comp won't change the heat levels caused by
> >the hellblast.
> >
> I was wondering the same thing... Flare Comp is used with Low-Light vision
> to prevent sudden bursts of light to be intesified to dangerous levels and
> blinding the player... Even with Flare comp, a sudden burst will blind you
> for a few seconds, till things adjust... It just won't damage your eyes,
> cyber or otherwise...
>
Flare comp doesn't neutralise a flash grenade entirely, it just reduces
the target number penalties.... Principle should be the same for a
hellblast... Assuming a hellblast is hot enough.

Also, remember that flarecomp gets rid of glare TN modifiers... So, it is
suddenly possible to pick out that person standing next to that metal
smelter with thermo and flare comp.

Also, as an aside, wouldn't thermo be very useful to Firefighters??

Bleach
Message no. 15
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:20:08 +0000
> Well... hmm.... let me see. Flare comp works by cutting out/down
> the levels of input to your eyes... If you have flare comp, and you get
> flahsed by visible light, the FC will cut out the high levels. If you
> are using thermo, and you get flash by a really hot source, the FC will
> cut out the really high levels of input... it doesn't matter what the
> thing is, the principle is just the same.

IF thermo worked in the same manner as normal/lowlight vision, this
explaination would be fine. But thermo doesn't work that way.

Thermo vision translates heat levels to visible light. The light
isn't brighter for a hotter source, it just changes colors. There
would be no way to compensate for it other than just shutting down
(which is what current FC's do in night sights.)

This is true in the same way that you could hide near a space heater
to avoid detection.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 16
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:20:09 +0000
> Also, remember that flarecomp gets rid of glare TN modifiers... So, it is
> suddenly possible to pick out that person standing next to that metal
> smelter with thermo and flare comp.

Uh, no it wouldn't because the air is at a higher temperature than
the person behind it. You cannot see a cooler object through warm
air very well, if at all. That's a basic principle of thermo vision.

Remember that you aren't seeing the radiation itself, but a
representation of that radiation.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 17
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:20:08 +0000
> IMHO, Flare Comp dampens the effect of sudden spikes of light (any kind,
> including infrared, which is heat) somewhere between the lens (natural or

You're confusing to seperate things here. IR and heat are two
seperate things, or more precicely, heat is infrared radiation but
not all infrared radiation is heat. This is the same as blue is
visible light, but all visible light isn't blue.

> cyber) and the brain. Current technology (ie 1996) can compensate a
> thermographic imager for flares in heat, so I don't see why it couldn't be
> applied to thermovision in 205*.

Can it? A higher heat source will mask surrounding heat levels.
There is no way to compensate for this. Current thermo vision
devices need to be cooler than the surrounding area to function for
the same reason.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 18
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 11:29:01 GMT
Marty writes
>
> Also, as an aside, wouldn't thermo be very useful to Firefighters??
>
Very, which is why they have been equiping them with heat detection
equipment for some time. The police also find it very useful, equip
chopper, and as they have shown on TV makes the most wonderful
'missing persons finder/ criminal tracker (darkness, bushes etc no
longer help at all, and the chopper is faster than the get away car,
also avoids dangerous car chases), and if you link the police and
firemens frequencies police chopper can direct the firemens hoses,
including rooftops in trouble. This lot is spreading fast now, by
2057 anyones guess what they will have, ground survey radar? the
military already have it 'vaguely' man portable at best i think but
i'm not to sure what the lastest is (assuming the American military
has actually admitted to their latest version).

> Bleach
>
Mark
Message no. 19
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:01:14 +0100
Droopy said on 1:20/22 Oct 96...

> IF thermo worked in the same manner as normal/lowlight vision, this
> explaination would be fine. But thermo doesn't work that way.
>
> Thermo vision translates heat levels to visible light. The light
> isn't brighter for a hotter source, it just changes colors.

That's only because of the way it works. You can quite easily convert
visible light to different colors in the same way -- just have some
computer show differences in light intensity (instead of differences in
wavelength) as differences in color. That means a red surface and a blue
surface will appear to be the same color, if they both reflect an equal
amount of light.

> There would be no way to compensate for it other than just shutting down
> (which is what current FC's do in night sights.)

You can compensate for higher light levels (or heat levels) by letting
the monitor tone down peaks in intensity. I'm not sure if it would allow
you to detect someone hiding next to a heat source, but you can decrease
the perceived intensity of the heat source to a level that won't
completely blind you.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I've got nothing to say.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Message no. 20
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 17:25:16 +0100
In message <199610220519.BAA23098@**.net>, Droopy
>IF thermo worked in the same manner as normal/lowlight vision, this
>explaination would be fine. But thermo doesn't work that way.
>
>Thermo vision translates heat levels to visible light. The light
>isn't brighter for a hotter source, it just changes colors.

Um... the thermal imagers I used, showed monochrome: intensity equalled
temperature, with the option to flip scales (from black=hot for sea or
sky use, to white=hot for land use)

>There
>would be no way to compensate for it other than just shutting down
>(which is what current FC's do in night sights.)
>
>This is true in the same way that you could hide near a space heater
>to avoid detection.

You could see someone hiding behind a hot Land Rover engine, or a
vehicle exhaust, pretty easily. You needed fire to block out a
significant amount of display.

They also automatically compensated for flare, just like the image
intensifiers we also used.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 21
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:39:30 +1000
> > Also, remember that flarecomp gets rid of glare TN modifiers... So, it is
> > suddenly possible to pick out that person standing next to that metal
> > smelter with thermo and flare comp.
>
> Uh, no it wouldn't because the air is at a higher temperature than
> the person behind it. You cannot see a cooler object through warm
> air very well, if at all. That's a basic principle of thermo vision.
>
There Isn't that much difference between IR and visible light..... Flare
comp lets you tone out glare modifiers from looking directly into a
light, so a radiating heat source would be much the same.

That is, of couse assuming that he wasn't standing so close to the heat
source that the ambient temperature was equal to body temp.

It wouldn't be perfect, but it'd certainly help some.

An it *is* possible to see the radiation... That's the discussion we were
having previously; If you have to see in the visible specturm at the
same time, like trolls and dwarves, then you have to be able to
distinguish the wavelengths.
Bleach
Message no. 22
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 20:28:21 +0000
Paul J. Adam wrote:

> Um... the thermal imagers I used, showed monochrome: intensity equalled
> temperature, with the option to flip scales (from black=hot for sea or
> sky use, to white=hot for land use)

Never saw those, just the modern colorized ones.

> You could see someone hiding behind a hot Land Rover engine, or a
> vehicle exhaust, pretty easily. You needed fire to block out a
> significant amount of display.

Sounds like you were seeing IR and not heat.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 23
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Thermo vision and stuff
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 17:12:17 +0100
In message <199610240027.UAA15066@**.net>, Droopy
<droopy@*******.NB.NET> writes
>Paul J. Adam wrote:
>> You could see someone hiding behind a hot Land Rover engine, or a
>> vehicle exhaust, pretty easily. You needed fire to block out a
>> significant amount of display.
>
>Sounds like you were seeing IR and not heat.

Well, we were using a Thorn-EMI thermal imager sensitive in the 14-
micron band. When you use your eyes, are you seeing colour or EM
radiation?

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

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