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Message no. 1
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 04:29:32 -0600
Well, TSS-10 is as finished as it's going to get. The PDF version can be
found at http://shadowrun.html.com/tss/tss/tss-10.pdf - by the time you
read this, the page itself should be updated so you can download it from
the normal links and suchlike. The HTML version should be available before
next weekend.

Not quite the issue I hoped for, given the time involved, but last minute
stresses led to me cutting a fairly large article, so as to not compromise
what the author intended.

It's early July, and you can expect TSS-11 sometime after Gencon.
Submissions, particularly the smaller "tidbit" type submissions would be
gratefully appreciated, as I mostly have larger stuff for the next issue.

Hope you enjoy. :-)

Adam
--
< adamj@*********.html.com / http://shadowrun.html.com/tss >
< ICQ# 2350330 / ShadowFAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/shadowfaq >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / Shadowrun Creative Resources >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
Message no. 2
From: arclight arclight@**************.com
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:40:07 +0200
And finally, AdamJ expressed himself by typing:


[TSS#10 is out and ready]

The Link doesn't work...

arclight
Message no. 3
From: arclight arclight@**************.com
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:43:21 +0200
And finally, Arclight expressed himself by typing:

> And finally, AdamJ expressed himself by typing:
>
>
> [TSS#10 is out and ready]
>
> The Link doesn't work...

because I typed it wrong... sheesh

arc
Message no. 4
From: twowolfe@*******.net twowolfe@*******.net
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 04:46:24 -0700
Adam J wrote:
>
> Well, TSS-10 is as finished as it's going to get.
<Snip>
> Hope you enjoy. :-)
>
> Adam


Never saw a TSS issue that i did not like =)
Keep up the good work tell your writers and your new staff too keep
up the good work.

Twist-


stephen@**********.com / http://WWW.Real-Deals.com
#Dmsetup Mailing List -- #Dmsetup #IrcChat Op / #Teens Trainee
Message no. 5
From: Manx timburke@*******.com.au
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 22:45:13 +1000
At 04:29 4/07/99 -0600 Adam J wrote
>Well, TSS-10 is as finished as it's going to get. The PDF version can be
>found at http://shadowrun.html.com/tss/tss/tss-10.pdf - by the time you
>read this, the page itself should be updated so you can download it from
>the normal links and suchlike. The HTML version should be available before
>next weekend.
<Snip>
>Hope you enjoy. :-)
>
>Adam

Adam,

When I follow your link from your post and from
the TSS downloads page I get shunted back
to the front page of Deep Resonance. There
doesn't appear to be a valid link to TSS-10.

What Gives?

__________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
__________________________________
Message no. 6
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 06:54:04 -0600
At 22:45 7/4/99 +1000, Manx wrote:

>When I follow your link from your post and from
>the TSS downloads page I get shunted back
>to the front page of Deep Resonance. There
>doesn't appear to be a valid link to TSS-10.

Had some problems with the file in version 3 of Acrobat Reader, so I had to
replace it, which mean temporarily deleting the file. It should be there
now, and working on bother Acrobat 3 and 4 without any errors..

Adam
< http://shadowrun.html.com/tss / adamj@*********.html.com / ICQ# 2350330 >
Message no. 7
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:35:54 -0500
> Well, TSS-10 is as finished as it's going to get. The PDF version can be
> found at http://shadowrun.html.com/tss/tss/tss-10.pdf - by the time you
> read this, the page itself should be updated so you can download it from
> the normal links and suchlike. The HTML version should be available
> before next weekend.

I would make one request, that you also include the Word 97 version you've
been doing for the past several issues. Adobe and I don't always get
along....

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 8
From: Graht Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 10:11:39 -0500
Patrick Goodman wrote:
/> Well, TSS-10 is as finished as it's going to get. The PDF version can be
/> found at http://shadowrun.html.com/tss/tss/tss-10.pdf - by the time you
/> read this, the page itself should be updated so you can download it from
/> the normal links and suchlike. The HTML version should be available
/> before next weekend.
/
/I would make one request, that you also include the Word 97 version you've
/been doing for the past several issues. Adobe and I don't always get
/along....

Adam wrote the following in TSS#10

/ "Something else that’s important to some readers - there is
/ no longer a Word or RTF version of the magazine. The reason
/ for that is simple - issues 1 through 9 were compiled in Word
/ ‘95 and ‘97, so distributing the Word/RTF version was no
/ problem. The magazine is now compiled in Adobe Pagemaker,
/ which does not produce those types of files. I apologize for this,
/ but those of you who use MS Word know that it can be a difficult
/ program at the best of times, and I’ve run out of patience with it.
/ issue, it will be kept in our archives until we get the chance to
/ use it."

Sorry Patrick, but it doesn't look like there's going to be a Word version.

-Graht
--
ShadowRN GridSec
The ShadowRN FAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/faqindex.php3
Geek Code: GCS d-( ) s++:->+ a@ C++>$ US P L >++ E? W++>+++ !N o-- K-
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D+(++) G e+>+++ h--->---- r+++ y+++
http://home.att.net/~Graht
"The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know
and the more I want to learn."
-Einstein
Message no. 9
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:26:51 -0500
> Sorry Patrick, but it doesn't look like there's going to be a
> Word version.

Well, crap....

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 10
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:38:50 -0500
> Sorry Patrick, but it doesn't look like there's going to be a
> Word version.

That's unfortunate, since Acrobat is crap for reading things on the screen
and it constantly locks up at around page 4. And I'm not certain what he
means by Word being a cranky program, since I've never had a problem with
it.

Oh, well, it's not my magazine, so....

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 11
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 11:21:46 -0600
At 11:38 7/4/99 -0500, Patrick Goodman wrote:
>> Sorry Patrick, but it doesn't look like there's going to be a
>> Word version.
>
>That's unfortunate, since Acrobat is crap for reading things on the screen

Odd. I don't seem to have a problem. Maximize Acrobat. Hit "View -> Fit in
Window". And as I've said, both on my page and in my posting to the list, a
HTML version will be out this week, for on screen viewing.

>and it constantly locks up at around page 4.

In this particular file? Haven't noticed a problem with it or any other PDF
file I've read before. I have -never- had Acrobat Reader, versions 2
through 4, crash on me. Ever.

If I get more reports of this, I'll look into it, but since page 4 is plain
text, with one line graphic, and nothing else, I have very little reason to
believe that it is in any way corrupted or would cause the reader to crash.

> And I'm not certain what he
>means by Word being a cranky program, since I've never had a problem with
>it.

Word cannot do a decent number of the things that Pagemaker can do, not
without a good deal of kludging around. It's also relatively crash-prone,
doesn't use Type1 fonts near as well as Pagemaker, and has a bunch of minor
issues that add up. After doing 9 issues with Word, and one issue with
Pagemaker, I definitely think that Pagemaker is the superior tool for the job.

I'll look into a Pagemaker -> Word/RTF filter, but I'm not promising
anything. I spend quite enough time on the magazine already, and I
obviously put far too much effort into trying to please -everyone-.

And yeah, if this comes off as a bit frustrated and upset, I am.

Adam
Message no. 12
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:49:09 +0200
According to Adam J, at 11:21 on 4 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> > And I'm not certain what he
> >means by Word being a cranky program, since I've never had a problem with
> >it.
>
> Word cannot do a decent number of the things that Pagemaker can do, not
> without a good deal of kludging around.

The reason being that Word is a word processor with layout features bolted
on. Thus, it presents you with a page of text, on- and into which you can
put other stuff. Pagemaker gives you a blank page on which you can put
anything and move it around as much as you like. My only complaints about
Pagemaker are that I would like toolbars (preferably customizable), and
Windows-standard keyboard shortcuts.

> It's also relatively crash-prone, doesn't use Type1 fonts near as well
> as Pagemaker

I wonder why. Could it be because Adobe designed Type 1 fonts and
Microsoft didn't? Nah... ;)

> and has a bunch of minor issues that add up. After doing 9 issues with
> Word, and one issue with Pagemaker, I definitely think that Pagemaker is
> the superior tool for the job.

Exactly the same conclusion I drew, once I learned to use Pagemaker :)

> I'll look into a Pagemaker -> Word/RTF filter

AFAIK, that doesn't really exist, unless you want to copy-and-paste the
text from Pagemaker into Word and do the whole formatting again.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
-> ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 13:58:26 -0500
:> Sorry Patrick, but it doesn't look like there's going to be a
:> Word version.
:
:That's unfortunate, since Acrobat is crap for reading things on the screen
:and it constantly locks up at around page 4. And I'm not certain what he
:means by Word being a cranky program, since I've never had a problem with
:it.


I find its plenty legible if (with my adobe viewer open inside IE) I go
to IE's "view" and select "full screen". This makes the pages almost
the
full height of my screen by elimating all the useless borders, logo's, and
such. I have a 17' screen, but only use 1024 x 768 resolution, and its
still pretty clear with the above tweaks.

Mongoose
Message no. 14
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 16:40:50 EDT
In a message dated 7/4/1999 10:40:56 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
remo@***.net writes:

> > Well, TSS-10 is as finished as it's going to get. The PDF version can be
> > found at http://shadowrun.html.com/tss/tss/tss-10.pdf - by the time you
> > read this, the page itself should be updated so you can download it from
> > the normal links and suchlike. The HTML version should be available
> > before next weekend.
>
> I would make one request, that you also include the Word 97 version you've
> been doing for the past several issues. Adobe and I don't always get
> along....

I'm going to one-up Patrick here. Adam, I know you are busy, but wouldn't it
be more prudent (and flexible) if you included perhaps a .rtf format version
of the file in question? .rtf is valid on more Word Processors than anything
else I know of with the exception of .txt.......

-K
Message no. 15
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 16:42:02 EDT
In a message dated 7/4/1999 11:10:57 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net writes:

> Adam wrote the following in TSS#10
>
> / "Something else that’s important to some readers - there is
> / no longer a Word or RTF version of the magazine. The reason
> / for that is simple - issues 1 through 9 were compiled in Word
> / ‘95 and ‘97, so distributing the Word/RTF version was no
> / problem. The magazine is now compiled in Adobe Pagemaker,
> / which does not produce those types of files. I apologize for this,
> / but those of you who use MS Word know that it can be a difficult
> / program at the best of times, and I’ve run out of patience with it.
> / issue, it will be kept in our archives until we get the chance to
> / use it."
>
> Sorry Patrick, but it doesn't look like there's going to be a Word version.

Hmmm...didn't make it this far when I posted mine either. Oh well....

-K (who once again hears the sounds of incompatibility ringing across the
internet)
Message no. 16
From: Richard L. Riessen chrome@********.org
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:53:21 -0400
> I'm going to one-up Patrick here. Adam, I know you are busy, but
> wouldn't it
> be more prudent (and flexible) if you included perhaps a .rtf
> format version
> of the file in question? .rtf is valid on more Word Processors
> than anything
> else I know of with the exception of .txt.......


If its a hassle, I'd be willing to take the burden of conversion, Adam.

CT
Message no. 17
From: Geoff Skellams geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:20:45 +1000
On shadowrn@*********.org, Patrick Goodman[SMTP:remo@***.net] wrote:
> That's unfortunate, since Acrobat is crap for reading things on the
screen
> and it constantly locks up at around page 4. And I'm not certain what
he
> means by Word being a cranky program, since I've never had a problem
with
> it.

As the layout editor of another online fanzine (DEMONGROUND) and
Adam's mentor (of sorts) when it comes to using Pagemaker, I'm going to
back him up on this one. I used Word97 for the first two issues of
DEMONGROUND. It's a great word processing program, but when you are
trying to use it for layout, it's limitiations become apparent VERY
quickly. It's slow, kludgy and prone to making things vanish. It also
makes things difficult to format into a magazine layout without using
text boxes, which make things difficult to edit, and blow the size of
the PDF file WAY out.
Pagemaker, on the other hand, is DESIGNED to do layout. It's
much quicker and easier to manipulate blocks of text on the screen and
the inclusion of graphics is far less problematic than it is with Word.
It's also much, much easier to be more ambitious with presentation using
Pagemaker. I've done things in Pagemaker that I would never have DREAMED
of doing in Word.
PDF format, as a general rule, is a far better format for
distribution of a print ready publication that Word whatever or even
HTML. The designer has far more control over the look of the magazine,
which is what you are trying to improve on as time goes by. Most people,
if they have the latest version of the Acrobat reader program, have
absolutely no trouble reading them, or printing them out.
One thing that I need to explain is just how difficult and time
consuming doing layout can be. It's easy to complain about formats and
stuff, but if you actually have to do the hard yards and produce
something for the unwashed masses to oooh and ahh over, then you will be
spending a LOT of long, thankless hours in front of a PC. You NEED
something that makes your life easier in the long run to improve the
quality of the magazine for your readers. From bitter experience, I can
honestly say that Word just doesn't cut the mustard when it comes to
layout.
If you want to see the difference between a magazine created in
Word and one done with Pagemaker, then download DEMONGROUND Issues 2 and
5. Issue 2 was the last one I did with Word 97, and Issue 5 is the third
(and latest) I have done with Pagemaker. The URL for DG is
http://www.42north.org/~demonground/. The difference between the two is
VERY noticeable. Some of the difference can be attributed to my
experience with layout as a concept. Most of them can be attributed to
me gaining confidence because I had much better tools to work with.
I expect to see Adam begin to improve in the same sorts of ways.
Give the man some credit. If he wasn't doing the hard yards, you
wouldn't be able to get TSS at all.

cheers
Geoff

PS: Someone volunteered making a RTF version of TSS for Adam. It's
really not going to be possible without redoing all of the layout from
scratch. All of the source material would be scattered through a pile of
different files. With Pagemaker, you just drop them into your files, and
then export to PDF. If you're a glutton for punishment, Adam might let
you try, but I think you will probably give it up as too hard, for the
same reasons that Adam and I converted to Pagemaker in the first place
:) It's a noble offer, but I don't think you quite understand just how
much work you've just volunteered for :)


--
Geoff Skellams R&D - Tower Software
Email Address: geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Homepage: http://www.towersoft.com.au/staff/geoff/
ICQ Number: 2815165

Hili hewa ka mana'o ke 'ole ke kukakuka
(Ideas run wild without discussion)
Message no. 18
From: Richard L. Riessen chrome@********.org
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 20:38:41 -0400
> PS: Someone volunteered making a RTF version of TSS for Adam. It's
> really not going to be possible without redoing all of the layout from
> scratch. All of the source material would be scattered through a pile of
> different files. With Pagemaker, you just drop them into your files, and
> then export to PDF. If you're a glutton for punishment, Adam might let
> you try, but I think you will probably give it up as too hard, for the
> same reasons that Adam and I converted to Pagemaker in the first place
> :) It's a noble offer, but I don't think you quite understand just how
> much work you've just volunteered for :)


Well, as Adam can probably very, I am a glutton for punishment when it comes
to some of my projects. I can at least give it a shot. If it doesn't work
out, then I merely learn what I can and cannot do with PDF>RTF. If it
works, then others can be happy.

CT
Message no. 19
From: Seraph seraph4plm@*********.net
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:57:51 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard L. Riessen <chrome@********.org>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 1999 5:38 PM
Subject: RE: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10


> > PS: Someone volunteered making a RTF version of TSS for Adam. It's
> > really not going to be possible without redoing all of the layout from
> > scratch. All of the source material would be scattered through a pile of
> > different files. With Pagemaker, you just drop them into your files, and
> > then export to PDF. If you're a glutton for punishment, Adam might let
> > you try, but I think you will probably give it up as too hard, for the
> > same reasons that Adam and I converted to Pagemaker in the first place
> > :) It's a noble offer, but I don't think you quite understand just how
> > much work you've just volunteered for :)
>
>
> Well, as Adam can probably very, I am a glutton for punishment when it comes
> to some of my projects. I can at least give it a shot. If it doesn't work
> out, then I merely learn what I can and cannot do with PDF>RTF. If it
> works, then others can be happy.
>
> CT
>
>
I would love to have an alternative to Adobe. Ugh.
Message no. 20
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 22:02:00 -0500
Before we begin, let me specify that I am *not* trying to slag Adam for the
enormous amount of work he puts into TSS.

I am trying to slag Adobe. I think "Adobe" is an alternate spelling for
"Satan," as their programs have seldom done anything more than screw up a
perfectly good Windows setup for me. Your mileage may vary; them's the
breaks.

> >That's unfortunate, since Acrobat is crap for reading things on
> >the screen
>
> Odd. I don't seem to have a problem. Maximize Acrobat. Hit "View
> -> Fit in Window".

And you can read this? It makes the print nearly microscopic on my system.
The text is legible if I set it fit the page width, but there's a shitload
of scrolling that has to be done that I don't have to do in Word with RTF.

> And as I've said, both on my page and in my posting to the list, a
> HTML version will be out this week, for on screen viewing.

Which isn't any good unless I'm online.

> >and it constantly locks up at around page 4.
>
> In this particular file? Haven't noticed a problem with it or any other
> PDF file I've read before. I have -never- had Acrobat Reader, versions 2
> through 4, crash on me. Ever.

This file and DRAGONS, though it's not terribly consistent of late. I've
seldom had an Adobe product *not* crash on me if I've had to use it for
longer than about 20 minutes or so.

I avoid PDF files wherever and whenever I can, though, so your mileage may
vary. You might recall that I asked for the basic Word files that DRAGON
was made from, so that I could fix some of the obvious spelling errors and
wouldn't have to deal with all the silly little formatting errors found in
that (otherwise magnificent) piece of work. In other words, it's probably
just me.

> If I get more reports of this, I'll look into it, but since page 4 is
plain
> text, with one line graphic, and nothing else, I have very little reason
to
> believe that it is in any way corrupted or would cause the reader to
crash.

I don't think it's TSS-10; I think it's Acrobat.

> I'll look into a Pagemaker -> Word/RTF filter, but I'm not promising
> anything. I spend quite enough time on the magazine already, and I
> obviously put far too much effort into trying to please -everyone-.

Don't work yourself into a frenzy over it; I'll get over things fairly
quickly, I'm sure. Don't go trying to change things just because I bitch
about the format.

> And yeah, if this comes off as a bit frustrated and upset, I am.

Such was not my intention; having done more than my share of this sort of
thing over the years, I know how touchy it can cause you to be. The
magazine itself looks great, Adam, and as I've said elsewhere, I don't want
to come across as slagging on you for the work you do. I, speaking only for
myself, am deeply grateful to you for the work that you've put into TSS. I
just happen to be the type that, on something like this, thinks that the
information is more important than the formatting, and easier on me to boot.

But it's your baby, and your call. Don't let my kvetching about it change
how you do things, and likewise don't take it personally.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 21
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 22:02:02 -0500
> As the layout editor of another online fanzine (DEMONGROUND) and
> Adam's mentor (of sorts) when it comes to using Pagemaker, I'm going
> to back him up on this one.

Unnecessary, but it's nice to see people jumping to the aid of others around
here instead of body-slamming them.

Geoff, I've done a bit of page layout in my time, and I don't think I ever
said anything about doing page layout in Word. I'm crazy, perhaps, but I'm
not stupid. I'm also not saying he needs to do the full layout of the thing
in Word; I just want a version of the information in a format that is, for
me, easier to work with than the damnable Acrobat format.

> One thing that I need to explain is just how difficult and time
> consuming doing layout can be.

Having done it, I know how difficult and time-consuming it is. Please don't
jump to the conclusion that I'm just bitching for the sake of bitching. I'm
not.

> I expect to see Adam begin to improve in the same sorts of ways.
> Give the man some credit. If he wasn't doing the hard yards, you
> wouldn't be able to get TSS at all.

I never once took credit away from Adam, and I'd really appreciate it if
you'd come down off you high horse and stop putting words in my mouth.

Patrick
Message no. 22
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 05:00:00 -0400
Once upon a time, Patrick Goodman wrote;

>I am trying to slag Adobe. I think "Adobe" is an alternate spelling for
>"Satan," as their programs have seldom done anything more than screw up a
>perfectly good Windows setup for me. Your mileage may vary; them's the
>breaks.

I have no trouble what so ever with Adobe (although I prefer
QuarkXpress over PageMaker). Of course I use Mac so maybe you should be
slagging the real Satan, Windows & Microsoft. B;>P#

-MC23, who is risking platform flamewars-
"I'm a baaaaaaaaad boy."
Message no. 23
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 11:49:34 +0200
According to Richard L. Riessen, at 20:38 on 4 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> Well, as Adam can probably very, I am a glutton for punishment when it comes
> to some of my projects. I can at least give it a shot. If it doesn't work
> out, then I merely learn what I can and cannot do with PDF>RTF. If it
> works, then others can be happy.

All you need to do, really, is copy the text from the PDF (using the
"Select Text" tool in Acrobat) to a word processor. A slight snag there is
that Acrobat sees two-column text as being on one line, so you'll have to
select, copy, and paste each line individually -- not something I'd do
voluntarily, even if I do have too much time on my hands. (Of course, you
could use the original articles if Adam were to send them to you, or the
HTML version once that's available.)

So there's your basic magazine, but it'll look like crap. Now you have to
add the layout, which is plenty of work in itself, especially if you want
things to look half-decent. In short, you'll be doing everything the
original editor did as well, to come to the same result...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
-> ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 24
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 07:05:21 -0600
At 17:57 7/4/99 -0700, Various People wrote:

(This is a general reply to everything I felt worth replying to, so as to
reduce the number of posts on this subject. Double quoted text is mine.)

>I would love to have an alternative to Adobe. Ugh.

And if there was an alternative to the PDF format (Which is not "Adobe",
Adobe is the company that wrote the format, and the company that wrote the
best reader for it, although there are others), which provides exact layout
across multiple platforms (Within several hours of TSS's release, I had
reports from users of Windows, Mac, Solaris, Linux, etc), I would look into
using it.

Until then, people who don't want to read the PDF file can read the HTML
version, which is perfectly readable online or offline (File --> Save As),
and this issue I'll package it all as a nice little .zip file so you can
download the whole issue that way, if you like.

>> Odd. I don't seem to have a problem. Maximize Acrobat. Hit "View
>> -> Fit in Window".
>
>And you can read this? It makes the print nearly microscopic on my system.
>The text is legible if I set it fit the page width, but there's a shitload
>of scrolling that has to be done that I don't have to do in Word with RTF.

Yes, I can read it. Well enough to skim something and decide if I need to
print the contents, or just to find something quickly. Another thing to
keep in mind - I optimized this file for printing, one of the factors is
the double column layout. It would require scrolling up and down in any
format to read onscreen.

>-K (who once again hears the sounds of incompatibility ringing across the
>internet)

Quick look at the list of operating systems that have copies of Adobe
Acrobat Reader:
Mac, Power Mac, Win 3.1/95/NT/98, SunOS, Solaris, HP-UX, SGI, IRIX, IBM,
AIX, Digital UNIX, Linux, OS/2 Warp

Hardly incompatible. Incompatible with some people, but compatible with the
vast majority of computers, for free.

Adam
--
< adamj@*********.html.com / http://shadowrun.html.com/tss >
< ICQ# 2350330 / ShadowFAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/shadowfaq >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / Shadowrun Creative Resources >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
Message no. 25
From: Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 00:38:56 +0200
"Richard L. Riessen" wrote:
>
> Well, as Adam can probably very, I am a glutton for punishment when it comes
> to some of my projects. I can at least give it a shot. If it doesn't work
> out, then I merely learn what I can and cannot do with PDF>RTF. If it
> works, then others can be happy.
>
Framemaker-import PDF - save as - RTF <shrug>

--
Barbie
Message no. 26
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 19:29:56 EDT
In a message dated 7/5/1999 8:07:46 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
adamj@*********.html.com writes:

> >-K (who once again hears the sounds of incompatibility ringing across the
> >internet)
>
> Quick look at the list of operating systems that have copies of Adobe
> Acrobat Reader:
> Mac, Power Mac, Win 3.1/95/NT/98, SunOS, Solaris, HP-UX, SGI, IRIX, IBM,
> AIX, Digital UNIX, Linux, OS/2 Warp
>
> Hardly incompatible. Incompatible with some people, but compatible with
the
> vast majority of computers, for free.

How nice and thoughtful of you to paste one posting into another one and then
reply to them all at once. I never said that Adobe wasn't compatible on lots
of systems. I said, or at the very least I meant to state, that Adobe wasn't
compatible with lots of other software packages (Corel, Word, etc....).

-K
Message no. 27
From: Rori Steel cullyn@*****.com.au
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 02:03:51 +0000 (GMT)
On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 05:00:00 -0400, MC23 wrote:

>Once upon a time, Patrick Goodman wrote;
>>I am trying to slag Adobe. I think "Adobe" is an alternate spelling for
>>"Satan," as their programs have seldom done anything more than screw up
a
>>perfectly good Windows setup for me. Your mileage may vary; them's the
>>breaks.
>
> I have no trouble what so ever with Adobe (although I prefer
>QuarkXpress over PageMaker). Of course I use Mac so maybe you should be
>slagging the real Satan, Windows & Microsoft. B;>P#
>
>-MC23, who is risking platform flamewars-
> "I'm a baaaaaaaaad boy."

Cullyn jumps under a nearby building... and a paper aeroplane lands at
MC23's feet. "I suggest you find a safe place to hide.... Either
Gridsec wont come... and people will kill you... or Gridsec will
come.. and they will kill you!"

Cullyn.
Who has read the FAQ, and knows of the Bad Gridsec Badge on someone's
lapel.
Message no. 28
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 23:38:31 -0400
Once upon a time, Rori Steel wrote;

>Cullyn jumps under a nearby building... and a paper aeroplane lands at
>MC23's feet. "I suggest you find a safe place to hide.... Either
>Gridsec wont come... and people will kill you... or Gridsec will
>come.. and they will kill you!"

Hide? Me? Bah!

I survived worse.

It seems I've been away from the list for too long.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed,
briefed, debriefed, or numbered "
-No. 6, The Prisoner

I am MC23
Message no. 29
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:07:06 +0200
According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 19:29 on 5 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> How nice and thoughtful of you to paste one posting into another one and then
> reply to them all at once. I never said that Adobe wasn't compatible on lots
> of systems. I said, or at the very least I meant to state, that Adobe wasn't
> compatible with lots of other software packages (Corel, Word, etc....).

That's like saying a JPEG won't load into Notepad...

First of all, like Adam said, it's not "Adobe" but "PDF" -- Adobe is
the
company, PDF is (one of) their product(s).

Second, PDF isn't an editable format, under normal circumstances, so there
is no point in allowing it to be loaded into a word processor. Yes, Adobe
Exchange can edit it, but only to a very limited degree (it won't word-
wrap, for example). The idea behind PDF is that it looks the same on all
platforms, which is just about diametrically-opposed to allowing editing.
Take a look at a word processor doc made on a system other than yours for
evidence of that.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
-> ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 30
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 15:30:37 -0400
Another backer of Adam here.

> Pagemaker, on the other hand, is DESIGNED to do layout.

That is the key. Generally, any tool designed specifically for a task will
be much easier for the user. I will give Word props for being (at least
several years ago, when I was putting the compiled NAGEE together) the only
word-processor that could even come close to doing what I wanted from it.
Others had limitations, either in mixing different numbers of columns on a
page, supporting EPS or doing indexing and table of contents properly.

For certain things, though, using Word is nasty and brutish. My character
sheets, for example, I'm not sure could even be done in Word. That's what
Quark XPress is for.

Wordman
Message no. 31
From: anonymous tirnanog@****.com
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 17:02:28 -0700
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>



|For certain things, though, using Word is nasty and brutish. My
character
|sheets, for example, I'm not sure could even be done in Word.
That's what
|Quark XPress is for.
|
|Wordman


speaking as someone who puts together a college newspaper on a
weekly basis, quarkexpress rules!
i would even suggest it for the TSS except that i believe you
have to have quark to view it as well.

david
tirnanog@****.com
Message no. 32
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 18:10:55 -0600
At 17:02 7/6/99 -0700, anonymous wrote:

>speaking as someone who puts together a college newspaper on a
>weekly basis, quarkexpress rules!
>i would even suggest it for the TSS except that i believe you
>have to have quark to view it as well.

I've tried the demo of Quark Xpress, and really disliked it. Once I used
Quark for a few hours, Pagemaker seemed much easier, and from there,
everything fell into place. :-)

Let's just leave it at that. I've already seen enough Quark vs Pagemaker
arguments in my short time reading 'net forums about the products.. ;)

Adam
< http://shadowrun.html.com/tss / adamj@*********.html.com / ICQ# 2350330 >
Message no. 33
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 18:16:03 -0600
At 19:29 7/5/99 -0400, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

>> Hardly incompatible. Incompatible with some people, but compatible with
>the
>> vast majority of computers, for free.
>
>How nice and thoughtful of you to paste one posting into another one and
then
>reply to them all at once.

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not..

> I never said that Adobe wasn't compatible on lots
>of systems. I said, or at the very least I meant to state, that Adobe
wasn't
>compatible with lots of other software packages (Corel, Word, etc....).

It's not supposed to be. It's not an editable document format - it's a
distribution format. There's a very fine program dedicated to reading PDF
files, that covers everything that could possibly be used/embedded in one,
and there's really no need for other programs to be able to read it. They
couldn't possibly be as comprehensive as Acrobat Reader, and that raises
problems for people who provide files in PDF content - it is supposed to
provide Exact layout. When you have various programs interpreting it,
there's bound to be some bugs in them, or features not supported, and that
ruins the point of the format, and I'll be left saying the same thing I've
been saying since the magazines inception - if you want the good looking
version, use Acrobat reader. If you don't care about that, or want to edit
the contents, wait for the HTML version.

And with this post, I'm finished. If someone isn't going to read the
magazine, despite me releasing it in two very common formats, I couldn't
convince you to read it even if I printed off a hard copy and express
mailed it to your door.

Adam

< http://shadowrun.html.com/tss / adamj@*********.html.com / ICQ# 2350330 >
Message no. 34
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: The Shadowrun Supplemental #10
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 00:26:41 EDT
In a message dated 7/6/1999 7:18:32 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
adamj@*********.html.com writes:

>
> And with this post, I'm finished. If someone isn't going to read the
> magazine, despite me releasing it in two very common formats, I couldn't
> convince you to read it even if I printed off a hard copy and express
> mailed it to your door.

Well actually, I WOULD read it very detailably then... ;-P

-K (who is just trying to Goad Adam along now... ;)

Further Reading

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Thwap!