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Message no. 1
From: John Wicker <saxon@***.NET>
Subject: The SR/ED Connection
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:06:09 -0600
Greetings all...

I've been lurking on the list for what seems like forever, and one of the
most common threads that I see popping up is a comparison between Earth
Dawn and Shadowrun mechanics.

Inevitably, it comes up when discussing immortal elves, anchoring, auras or
the like-- always some magical aspect of the sixth world, and always a
question about what we can infer from Earthdawn as it might apply to
Shadowrun.

In a lot of respects, this reminds me of one of the trends in the study of
literature. Without getting too longwinded, many critics have stopped
looking at an author's environment, biography and all the other drek that
we might attach to a one of their works, and are looking exclusively at the
work itself. For example, just because Charles Dickens struggled with
poverty as a child, bounced from home to home and relative to relative, and
happens to have the same initials as David Copperfield (except in reverse),
many critics are now looking exclusively at _David Copperfield_ and
ignoring the fact that these same things basically happen in the novel. In
other words, the assumption that _David Copperfield_ is auto-biographical
in nature is merely an assumption on our parts since it was introduced as a
work of fiction, a fact which remained unchanged by the author.

One of the catch-phrases for this style of criticism might be "It's very
intersting that [insert author] once had such an experience, but where does
this happen in the text?". In other words, these critics are looking solely
at what is involved in and directly related to the work in question.

There have been discussions about this sort of thing on the list, albeit in
a slightly different form, usually concerning the actions of some character
in a novel, or the opinions expressed by a line developer or author.
Generally, these things are discussed in terms of "cannon" and
"non-cannon".

The crux of all of this, however, is how much we can information from
Earthdawn we can relate to Shadowrun. I would say that the amount is pretty
much none.

Let me just say that I don't play Earthdawn. I'm not very familiar with it,
and I don't want to get into a huge debate over the simularities between
the two games. But it would seem to me that there's a reason that the two
gaming systems aren't related-- the stats are completely different and are
not interchangable without major conversion. This seperates the two, in my
mind. Even if a character transfers from one "universe" to the other,
that's no different than a character popping up from one novel to the next.
If we concentrate only on what is found in the existing universe, those
actions directly before us and available for review, then what difference
does it make if something happened one way here, and another way somewhere
else?

I've sat in front of Tom Dowd as he told me that Earthdawn is made up from
the "Shadowrun back story" that was developed to differentiate SR from
Cyberpunk 2020. I know that Harlequin and company were running around on
Barsaive, if you accept the novels as cannon. I know that Horrors are
running around here and there in both universes. What I want to know is
this: Aside from the obvious "don't use it in your game if you don't like
it", why should we truly look at anything in Earthdawn as being relational
to SR? I don't think its cannon, even if its neat to think about.

Just my two nuyen (and longwinded despite myself),

John Wicker,
saxon@***.net
Message no. 2
From: Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: The SR/ED Connection
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:19:27 -0600
On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, John Wicker wrote:

> Greetings all...
>
> I've been lurking on the list for what seems like forever, and one of the
> most common threads that I see popping up is a comparison between Earth
> Dawn and Shadowrun mechanics.
<snip essay on derived assumptions>

Hi John! Welcome to the list :) And I thought you said that you
didn't have time for it ;)

About your ideas I agree with you to a point. Because I have played both
SR and ED I can say thet there is a certen amount of correlation between
the two, The Ideas, if not the practices, of magic seem the same. I think
that one thing that people have to remember that it is implied that Magic
changes from one world to the next, a sort of "Random Mutation" durring
the lull. Its all New, all Different. :)

Czar Eggbert
(who just took a baaad Calculus Test after no sleep :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Czar Eggbert
Ruler, Dark Side of the Moon.
homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/5648
mailto:czregbrt@*********.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality!? Is that some new game?"
-MDF
"I'll need morphine, lots of it, and a pistol."
-The English Patient
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: Scott Roberts <shayd@********.NET>
Subject: Re: The SR/ED Connection
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:31:45 -0500
On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, John Wicker wrote:

> Greetings all...
>

*snip*

> The crux of all of this, however, is how much we can information from
> Earthdawn we can relate to Shadowrun. I would say that the amount is pretty
> much none.
>


There's quite a number of crossovers. The key to all of this is the
cyclical worlds (Earthdawn being the Fourth World, Shadowrun being the
Sixth World, our "modern" world, the Fifth), the ages of magic.

Earthdawn shares several characters and themes with Shadowrun. Harlequin,
the Crying Spire, the Blood Wood elves, the various novels, the shadowtalk
which refers to events et. al. in the Fourth World (and the Fifth),
etcetera. How much data needs to be carried over? FASA made the two
systems just fine as standalones--you don't need to know anything at all
about ED to enjoy SR, and vice versa. How much CAN we relate between the
two? Dowd answers that question when he talks to you himself, below.

>
> I've sat in front of Tom Dowd as he told me that Earthdawn is made up from
> the "Shadowrun back story" that was developed to differentiate SR from
> Cyberpunk 2020. I know that Harlequin and company were running around on
> Barsaive, if you accept the novels as cannon. I know that Horrors are
> running around here and there in both universes. What I want to know is
> this: Aside from the obvious "don't use it in your game if you don't like
> it", why should we truly look at anything in Earthdawn as being relational
> to SR? I don't think its cannon, even if its neat to think about.


Earthdawn, as Tom says, is directly based on the SR backstory. Certain
characters (Dunkelzahn and Alamais amongst them) appear in both universes,
both in the novels and in the sourcebooks. Neccessary, certainly not;
relational, absolutely.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You Don't Like My Point Of View, You Think That I'm Insane..."
Scott "Shayd" Roberts
shayd@**.cybernex.net ** http://www.cybernex.net/shayd
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: The SR/ED Connection
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:50:20 +0100
>But it would seem to me that there's a reason that the two
>gaming systems aren't related-- the stats are completely different and are
>not interchangable without major conversion. This seperates the two, in my
>mind.

Use the ranks as SR stats and you get very similar values.

>I've sat in front of Tom Dowd as he told me that Earthdawn is made up from
>the "Shadowrun back story" that was developed to differentiate SR from
>Cyberpunk 2020. I know that Harlequin and company were running around on
>Barsaive, if you accept the novels as cannon. I know that Horrors are
>running around here and there in both universes. What I want to know is
>this: Aside from the obvious "don't use it in your game if you don't like
>it", why should we truly look at anything in Earthdawn as being relational
>to SR? I don't think its cannon, even if its neat to think about.

With your definition of a cannon :
>There have been discussions about this sort of thing on the list, albeit in
>a slightly different form, usually concerning the actions of some character
>in a novel, or the opinions expressed by a line developer or author.
>Generally, these things are discussed in terms of "cannon" and
"non-cannon".

It is clear that ED background is a cannon. But the objective of your
arguments. If you want to say don't use ED because I don't want to use it,
I don't agree and I don't think you think you use the good arguments.
Otherwise, what do you want to show/explain/ask ?


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "You are who you know"
Message no. 5
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: The SR/ED Connection
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:47:13 -0500
John Wicker[SMTP:saxon@***.NET] wrote:
> I've been lurking on the list for what seems like forever, and one of the
> most common threads that I see popping up is a comparison between Earth
> Dawn and Shadowrun mechanics.

Not mechanics really, more like worldview. Most frequent are
the comparisons between SR magic and ED magic. Simply because
in ED, magic plays a much bigger role and so was built to be
more consistent and more in-depth. IMHO, of course.

> Inevitably, it comes up when discussing immortal elves, anchoring, auras or
> the like-- always some magical aspect of the sixth world, and always a
> question about what we can infer from Earthdawn as it might apply to
> Shadowrun.

Unfortunately, magic in SR is pretty sparsely defined. We've
been told of several things that people *can* do, but very few
that people *can't* do. So when a bored listmember comes up
with a questionnable cool idea that the SRII rules don't cover,
we have to turn to other, non-rules, sources like the novels
and how things happened in the 4th world.

[snip CD/DC stuff]
> There have been discussions about this sort of thing on the list, albeit in
> a slightly different form, usually concerning the actions of some character
> in a novel, or the opinions expressed by a line developer or author.
> Generally, these things are discussed in terms of "cannon" and
"non-cannon".

Yeah, because too often an author will read the background of
SRII and do things that we *know* are impossible given the rules.
The more somebody breaks the rules, the more people get suspicious.

On the other hand, EarthDawn doesn't follow any of the rules to
begin with, so there are no rules to break. I think that people
tend to see EarthDawn as more of a "is this possible with magic?"
metric than anything else. Since ED is developed by FASA, it
holds more weight as canon in the ED/SR universe (and everybody
agrees that they *are* connected) than the novels, which are
written by independent authors.

Put succinctly, FASA wrote ED, so it's canon. FASA didn't write
the novels, so they're not.

> The crux of all of this, however, is how much we can information from
> Earthdawn we can relate to Shadowrun. I would say that the amount is pretty
> much none.

I disagree. We can determine what sorts of things are possible
with magic. It gives a different spin on some aspects of magic -
in ED, blood magic is the equivalent of SR cyberware. You implant
some magical artifact into your body - taking a bit of constant
damage from it as it draws a bit of life from you to power the
artifact, and granting you the appropriate abilities.

> Let me just say that I don't play Earthdawn. I'm not very familiar with it,
> and I don't want to get into a huge debate over the simularities between
> the two games. But it would seem to me that there's a reason that the two
> gaming systems aren't related-- the stats are completely different and are
> not interchangable without major conversion. This seperates the two, in my

So what if the game systems differ? How you come up with a
random value to indicate whether an attempt fails or succeeds
doesn't affect the history or the state of the world.

> mind. Even if a character transfers from one "universe" to the other,
> that's no different than a character popping up from one novel to the next.
> If we concentrate only on what is found in the existing universe, those
> actions directly before us and available for review, then what difference
> does it make if something happened one way here, and another way somewhere
> else?

Err, exactly my point? So why are you separating SR from ED?

> I've sat in front of Tom Dowd as he told me that Earthdawn is made up from
> the "Shadowrun back story" that was developed to differentiate SR from
> Cyberpunk 2020. I know that Harlequin and company were running around on
> Barsaive, if you accept the novels as cannon. I know that Horrors are
> running around here and there in both universes. What I want to know is
> this: Aside from the obvious "don't use it in your game if you don't like
> it", why should we truly look at anything in Earthdawn as being relational
> to SR? I don't think its cannon, even if its neat to think about.

FASA wrote it, so it's canon. It's as simple as that.

James Ojaste
Message no. 6
From: John Wicker <saxon@***.NET>
Subject: The SR/ED Connection
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:01:32 -0600
>Earthdawn shares several characters and themes with Shadowrun. Harlequin,
>the Crying Spire, the Blood Wood elves, the various novels, the shadowtalk
>which refers to events et. al. in the Fourth World (and the Fifth),
>etcetera. How much data needs to be carried over? FASA made the two
>systems just fine as standalones--you don't need to know anything at all
>about ED to enjoy SR, and vice versa.

<Devil's Advocate Mode=yes>

Exactly-- the two systems *are* standalones. Why? It's not as if FASA had
anything to fear from using the same mechanics for both games. Why design
another system when they had one out there already? What would the players
have missed buying? Only the main rulebook-- all of the adventures,
sourcebooks, and various other Earthdawn source material would still be
needed to run Earthdawn.

The reason they went with two systems, in my opinion at least, is to
seperate the two games. Even if Harlequin pops up in both places (and where
does this happen except in a novel? Is it from an official Earthdawn
release?), what difference does it make to SR? Only what he does there is
important to the core SR universe.

When the introduction of horrors came about, I remember such a stir on this
list and among SR players in general that I hardly believed the game would
survive. "If I wanted to play Shadowrun with horrors, I'd be playing
earthdawn" was the rallying cry. And now, a few years down the road, it
seems that no one minds this crossover. If a question comes up that is too
much for the current rules, someone whips out a comparitive study of
Earthdawn magic and sets it all to rest.

All I'm saying is this-- yes, Fasa no doubt wants us to think of the two
games as a set of different cirucmstances rising from the same basic
event-- the mana cycle. But they maintain two seperate core rule systems,
feature wildly different races and peoples (not counting the annoyingly
powerful IE's and Dragons) and technologies, and are basically two seperate
entities.

<Devil's Advocate Mode=no>

The basic commonality here is the mana cycle. Sure, the magic system is
based on this commonality. I just thought I'd run it past the list.

I'm not gonna throw horrors and Immortal Elves at my players just because
they're present in both worlds. I wouldn't expect someone else to strip
these items out of their game just because there are two different rule
systems involved.

John Wicker,
saxon@***.net
Message no. 7
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: The SR/ED Connection
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:54:22 +0000
On 13 Nov 97, John Wicker disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> >Earthdawn shares several characters and themes with Shadowrun. Harlequin,
> >the Crying Spire, the Blood Wood elves, the various novels, the shadowtalk
> >which refers to events et. al. in the Fourth World (and the Fifth),
> >etcetera. How much data needs to be carried over? FASA made the two
> >systems just fine as standalones--you don't need to know anything at all
> >about ED to enjoy SR, and vice versa.
>
> <Devil's Advocate Mode=yes>
>
> Exactly-- the two systems *are* standalones. Why? It's not as if
> FASA had anything to fear from using the same mechanics for both
> games. Why design another system when they had one out there
> already? What would the players have missed buying? Only the main
> rulebook-- all of the adventures, sourcebooks, and various other
> Earthdawn source material would still be needed to run Earthdawn.

Well, maybe because SR system is not perfect? It's old and breaks up
at the extreme ends of scale (witness the recent "Antivehicle weapons
and human targets" discussion). OTOH, ED system is a very nice one
and does a good job with scaling (no tanks in that one, but Great
Dragons and Horrors can be treated as "armoured vehicles" ;P ).

Quite frankly, there are lots of people who dislike SR's system, and
switching to another system to appeal to a wider group of customers
makes sense, even if only from a commercial PoV.


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Study Art and Logic - and learn to draw your own conclusions.

Further Reading

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