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From:	Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject:	The start of holographic neural nets?
Date:	Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:29:10 -0700

Message no. 1 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000621/tc/brain_dc_1.html

LONDON (Reuters) - A new electronic circuit can mimic the activity of the
brain and may one day be used to create computers that think more like
humans, scientists said on Wednesday.

The cerebral cortex of the brain, the center of human intelligence, is an
intricate network of neurons that contain unusual feedback loops.

Scientists at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), Lucent
Technologies' Bell Labs in New Jersey and the Institute of Neuroinformatics
in Zurich have created an electronic circuit similar to the brain's neural
system.

It consists of artificial neurons that communicate with each other via
synapses, or junctions where they connect, in a system that could lead to
the development of computers that could perform perceptual tasks such as
sight recognition.

``Unlike electronic circuits, the neural circuits of the cortex contain many
feedback loops,'' H. Sebastian Seung, of MIT, said in a statement.

``But neuroscientists have found that cortical feedback seems to operate in
a way that is unfamiliar to today's electronic designers. We set out to
mimic this novel mode of operation in an unconventional way.''

The brain processes both analog and digital signals.

When a car approaches, for example, the brain receives information about its
color, size and distance which it processes but the digital component is
still there because the brain makes an either-or decision about whether or
not it is a car.

In a report in the science journal Nature, the researchers explained that
when multiple signals are fed to two artificial neurons, the circuit
responds to one stimulus and suppresses its response to the other.

The scientists also added an inhibitory neuron in their circuit which
controls the signals and keeps feedback in check.

``The electronic world is evolving more and more toward mixed analog-digital
computation as the brain has already done. However, the brain's mixed-signal
circuits combine analog and digital functions in a much more intimate way
than is done in the electronic world,'' said MIT's Rahul Sarpeshkar, who
worked on the project.

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'

From:	dbuehrer@****.carl.org dbuehrer@****.carl.org
Subject:	The start of holographic neural nets?
Date:	Fri, 23 Jun 2000 07:50:46 -0600

Message no. 2 Tzeentch wrote:
>http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000621/tc/brain_dc_1.html
>
>LONDON (Reuters) - A new electronic circuit can mimic the activity of the
>brain and may one day be used to create computers that think more like
>humans, scientists said on Wednesday.
>
>The cerebral cortex of the brain, the center of human intelligence, is an
>intricate network of neurons that contain unusual feedback loops.
>
>Scientists at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), Lucent
>Technologies' Bell Labs in New Jersey and the Institute of Neuroinformatics
>in Zurich have created an electronic circuit similar to the brain's neural
>system.

If SR computers used neural circuitry by 2029, that might go a long way
toward explaining how the Crash of 29 managed to wipe out so much information.

Let's say that by 2029 computers use neural circuitry and are very
efficient. A downside is that information is stored on the neural net,
instead of on removable memory. But the marketers for the computers assure
everyone that their engineers say there's nothing to worry about (i.e., a
typical Dilburt scenario). The computers are incredibly fast, and
wonderful programs are written for them, and before you know it, everyone
has one.

Then the virus is created...

After the virus is wrangled, everyone screams bloody murder, and removable
memory makes a *big* comeback. But by then it's to late and a significant
amount of information has been lost.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday ... and all is well."

From:	Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject:	The start of holographic neural nets?
Date:	Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:00:12 -0700

Message no. 3 From: <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>
> If SR computers used neural circuitry by 2029, that might go a long way
> toward explaining how the Crash of 29 managed to wipe out so much
information.

Not really, as it still does not explain how it corrupted backups of data or
even why it had biofeedback capabilities (or why Echo Mirage was incapable
of using non-ASIST interfaces). Simply put the Crash Virus makes almost no
sense in any way. A more plausible explanation for the backwards state of
Shadowrun can be laid at the feet of the various VITAS plagues (hell that
would cause MASSIVE social disruption) and the Awakening (Bob down in
research just turned into some sort fo monster!).

When I was trying to rationalize the Crash Virus (without using the goofy
novel explanation) I borrowed a page from Stone Dogs and had it be an
insidious mutating virus that waited for years and years writing itself into
everything it could find including compilers. That way it was written into
even firmware for backup systems and protected systems. When it hit and
people went to restore backups it also fried a lot of those, erasing tape,
corrupting file systems and generally being a pain in the ass until people
could find REALLY old uncorrupted systems. But even then that does not
entirely explain matters.

> Let's say that by 2029 computers use neural circuitry and are very
> efficient. A downside is that information is stored on the neural net,
> instead of on removable memory. But the marketers for the computers
assure
> everyone that their engineers say there's nothing to worry about (i.e., a
> typical Dilburt scenario). The computers are incredibly fast, and
> wonderful programs are written for them, and before you know it, everyone
> has one.

Noone makes backups anymore? Or uses insanely cheap external storage? What
about various write-once media such as CDs?

> Then the virus is created...
>
> After the virus is wrangled, everyone screams bloody murder, and removable
> memory makes a *big* comeback. But by then it's to late and a significant
> amount of information has been lost.

Interesting idea, but I don't think it's an entirely adequate explanation
(of course, since its pure fantasy you can't explain it).

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'

From:	dbuehrer@****.carl.org dbuehrer@****.carl.org
Subject:	The start of holographic neural nets?
Date:	Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:57:56 -0600

Message no. 4 Tzeentch wrote:
>From: <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>
> > If SR computers used neural circuitry by 2029, that might go a long way
> > toward explaining how the Crash of 29 managed to wipe out so much
>information.
>
>Not really, as it still does not explain how it corrupted backups of data or
>even why it had biofeedback capabilities (or why Echo Mirage was incapable
>of using non-ASIST interfaces).

I'll get to that :)

> Simply put the Crash Virus makes almost no
>sense in any way.

It makes sense if people didn't have backups. Or at least not backups of
data in the conventional sense. Everyone pretty much agrees that if they
had backups then the Crash couldn't have happened. But it did. So, people
must not have had offline backups.

Okay, so say computers technology utilizes neural nets. As with the human
brain, data is stored in the net in a data/analog format. It isn't just
simple 0s and 1s. Let's say the storage space on a neural computer is
*huge*. And let's say the nature of the memory means that the size of the
external storage is beyond *huge* (i.e., very, very expensive).

Enough computer "experts" claim that neural computers are safe and stable,
that they are hacker proof, and that computer data doesn't really have to
be backed up, that people buy it. Those that do make back ups do so by
backing up their data on a second computer. Most of these users fail to
isolate the backup computer from the primary computer (i.e., people are
stupid). Only a very few paranoid users (military, intelligence, MIB, the
insane) made isolated backups of their data.

In my version a combination of technology and culture combined to create
the environment that made the Crash of 29 possible. Enter the Virus of 29.

Because the Virus could take down neural computers, it wasn't a big leap
for it to create biofeedback in human brains. Because it was a fully
neural virus, assist technology was needed to give the anti-virus team the
resources to defeat it.

>When I was trying to rationalize the Crash Virus (without using the goofy
>novel explanation)

Haven't read the book yet, not really interested.

> I borrowed a page from Stone Dogs and had it be an
>insidious mutating virus that waited for years and years writing itself into
>everything it could find including compilers. That way it was written into
>even firmware for backup systems and protected systems. When it hit and
>people went to restore backups it also fried a lot of those, erasing tape,
>corrupting file systems and generally being a pain in the ass until people
>could find REALLY old uncorrupted systems. But even then that does not
>entirely explain matters.

That's another possibility. But the virus would have had to have been
around a *long* time.

>Interesting idea, but I don't think it's an entirely adequate explanation
>(of course, since its pure fantasy you can't explain it).

I wasn't sure if it was an entirely adequate explanation, thus the reason
for posting it on ShadowRN for critical feedback :)

And just because something is fantasy, doesn't mean it can't be explained...

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"All things are at all times, in motion. Take the time to watch the dance."
-John Caeser Leafston

From:	Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject:	The start of holographic neural nets?
Date:	Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:09:47 -0500

Message no. 5 On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:57:56 -0600 dbuehrer@******.carl.org writes:
<SNIP>
> It makes sense if people didn't have backups. Or at least not
> backups of
> data in the conventional sense. Everyone pretty much agrees that if
> they
> had backups then the Crash couldn't have happened. But it did. So,
> people
> must not have had offline backups.
<SNIP>

Uhm, what if the virus didn't kick in right away? Ie, only on a certain
date. The backups could've been infected too. Recovery after the crash
could have been from manual entry from hardcopies ... ick.

Hmmm... about the biofeedback, the virus may not have had true
biofeedback. What if the similarities between the computer systems and
the brain allowed the virus to attempt to infect the Echo Mirage members
which resulted in a corrupted "had drive".

s fo Echo Mirage using non-assist interfaces, IIRC, with a "hot deck"
they, at ffirst, barely manged to defeat the virus. Also, it's possible
that it was not immediately apparent why the members were dying; sort of
a "this shouldn't be happening" mental block.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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