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Message no. 1
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: the value of education
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:46:00 -0400
Once upon a time, Robert Watkins wrote;

>In SR, the US is history. The UCAS, while still probably being the strongest
>nation on Earth (though the Japanese Empire may have something to say about
>that) is vastly reduced in strength, and there are several other nations, of
>comparable strength, adjacent to their borders. This would prompt a greater
>awareness of their neighbours, and thus a stronger global awareness.

Go ahead and dismiss CAS why don't you. Yet again proving the
northern bias. By the 2060 in the Shadowrun timeline there would be far
more subtle differences then there are now. Being the child of a Southern
father and a Northern mother I pick up on these things a lot.
I also notice that a lot of non-southern Shadowrun players treat the
CAS in an off hand manner (it's just a stray element of the UCAS to most
of them). I don't see the same attitude in the southern players though
(damn happy to be in the CAS). Actually I didn't even care for the South
as much as I do now and my interest began with the mention of CAS in
Shadowrun. And those same indifferent responses that I've seen in places
like this list just ups my fervor more.
And tying it back to the subject at hand, this also shows the
knowledge a lot of Americans have of their own country.

-MC23, who believes tea should be iced, sweetened, and have a dash of
lemon-
Message no. 2
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: the value of education
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:39:24 -0400
At 12.46 07-12-99 -0400, you wrote:
> Go ahead and dismiss CAS why don't you. Yet again proving the

I don't, and I am looking at a picture of one my ancestors and his buddies
standing in Atlanta. <g'ing & ducking>

I generally treat the CAS as one of the best hopes of North America
becoming a world player again, complete with carrier groups and "overseas"
expeditionary forces (including, if I ever run anything in that area of
time-space, some forces providing support for Bug City, along with Ares and
NAN troops). Personally, I think a book on the CAS would sell as well, if
not better than, Target: UCAS, simply because there is higher reading on
the "wierd-sh**o-meter" is some parts of the south.

>-MC23, who believes tea should be iced, sweetened, and have a dash of
>lemon-

Perfect served with a nice salad, and a good gumbo or broiled 'gator
steak, although I like chickory with my morning grits and ham.

(the only Yankee to admit to actually like grits)
CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 3
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: the value of education
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:51:06 +0200
According to Dennis Steinmeijer, at 11:25 on 12 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> The Netherlands is so small and insignificant, and our language is more
> of a throat disease than it is a language, that we HAVE to know about
> other countries and other languages. I have the feeling Gurth is going
> to disagree when he reads this.

He most certainly does...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Cooking with the devil, frying down in hell.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: Da Twink Daddy datwinkdaddy@*********.com
Subject: the value of education
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:31:14 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.com>

> Go ahead and dismiss CAS why don't you. Yet again proving the
> northern bias.

Damn Yanks. *Raises southern born and raised hand*

> By the 2060 in the Shadowrun timeline there would be far
> more subtle differences then there are now. Being the child of a
Southern
> father and a Northern mother I pick up on these things a lot.

There would be subtle ones, but also quite drastic ones. I don't think
teh south would revert to a pre-civil war type era, but we would have
a much different society than 'the north.'

> I also notice that a lot of non-southern Shadowrun players
treat the
> CAS in an off hand manner (it's just a stray element of the UCAS to
most
> of them). I don't see the same attitude in the southern players
though
> (damn happy to be in the CAS). Actually I didn't even care for the
South
> as much as I do now and my interest began with the mention of CAS in
> Shadowrun. And those same indifferent responses that I've seen in
places
> like this list just ups my fervor more.

Well, I'm from the south... actually the furthest north I've _ever_
been in West Virginia, but I tend to belittle the CAS as well. Though
I'm not such an adventurous GM, I tend to have my runs set in Seattle
or the surrounding Indian nation and don't stray to much from that.
There's gonna be plenty of jobs in Seattle, no need to increase your
bottom line by paying for someone's transportation to somewhere else
[directly or indirectly.] If the players got _good_ to where they were
known to be _the ones to call_ then, they might get some out of town
jobs, but I'm never hand a group stay together long enough to do that.

> And tying it back to the subject at hand, this also shows the
> knowledge a lot of Americans have of their own country.

You mean, very little?

> -MC23, who believes tea should be iced, sweetened, and have a dash
of
> lemon-

Da Twink Daddy -- Who doesn't drink tea and gets funny looks for it.
bss03@*******.uark.edu
ICQ# 514984
Message no. 5
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: the value of education
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:13:14 -0500
> Go ahead and dismiss CAS why don't you. Yet again proving the
> northern bias.

BROTHER!

> By the 2060 in the Shadowrun timeline there would be far more
> subtle differences then there are now. Being the child of a Southern
> father and a Northern mother I pick up on these things a lot.

I'd be interested in hearing your views on what some of those differences
might be. I'm working on some CAS materials now.

> I also notice that a lot of non-southern Shadowrun players treat the
> CAS in an off hand manner (it's just a stray element of the UCAS to most
> of them). I don't see the same attitude in the southern players though
> (damn happy to be in the CAS).

Just about anything I might ever write for FASA will be set in the CAS,
seeing as that's where I'm from. I really need to bone up on what little
FASA canon there is regarding the CAS so I can get it right without screwing
the game world too badly....

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 6
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:42:08 +1000
MC23 writes:
> >In SR, the US is history. The UCAS, while still probably being
> the strongest
> >nation on Earth (though the Japanese Empire may have something
> to say about
> >that) is vastly reduced in strength, and there are several other
> nations, of
> >comparable strength, adjacent to their borders. This would
> prompt a greater
> >awareness of their neighbours, and thus a stronger global awareness.
>
> Go ahead and dismiss CAS why don't you. Yet again proving the
> northern bias. By the 2060 in the Shadowrun timeline there would be far
> more subtle differences then there are now. Being the child of a Southern
> father and a Northern mother I pick up on these things a lot.

I did not. The CAS would be one of the other nations that are of comparable
strength. However, it would not be as strong as the UCAS, IMHO.

In fact, given that the UCAS and CAS share a commonality of history, the CAS
would probably prompt a greater global awareness than if it was just the
NAN.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 7
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: the value of education
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:56:18 -0400
On 12 Jul 99, at 13:39, IronRaven wrote:

> I generally treat the CAS as one of the best hopes of North America
> becoming a world player again, complete with carrier groups and "overseas"
> expeditionary forces (including, if I ever run anything in that area of
> time-space, some forces providing support for Bug City, along with Ares
> and NAN troops). Personally, I think a book on the CAS would sell as
> well, if not better than, Target: UCAS, simply because there is higher
> reading on the "wierd-sh**o-meter" is some parts of the south.

Yep,.. I'd like to see some more info on Atlanta, New Orleans.
Hey, port cities, Wilmington NC, Charleston SC, Savanna GA.
:-)

---
You deal with it, can't you see I'm busy keeping
Random's brains from hitting the floor!
-- Jared, Prince of Amber, after pulling
a cable from the head of Random, King of Amber.


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 8
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: the value of education
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:56:18 -0400
On 12 Jul 99, at 12:46, MC23 wrote:

> I also notice that a lot of non-southern Shadowrun players treat the
> CAS in an off hand manner (it's just a stray element of the UCAS to most
> of them). I don't see the same attitude in the southern players though
> (damn happy to be in the CAS). Actually I didn't even care for the South
> as much as I do now and my interest began with the mention of CAS in
> Shadowrun. And those same indifferent responses that I've seen in places
> like this list just ups my fervor more.
> And tying it back to the subject at hand, this also shows the
> knowledge a lot of Americans have of their own country.

Yeah,... just think what kind of deals you can come up with
down in the Big Easy,.... :-)


---
I had been . . . crossing and recrossing the line between
sanity and madness so many times that I had all but rubbed
it out.
--Corwin, Prince of Amber,
The Guns of Avalon, by Roger Zelazny


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 9
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:08:48 -0400
At 23.56 07-12-99 -0400, you wrote:
>Yep,.. I'd like to see some more info on Atlanta, New Orleans.
>Hey, port cities, Wilmington NC, Charleston SC, Savanna GA.
>:-)

Hunting for the fountain of youth, the Texas frontier, New Orleans and the
bouyes (sp), the 'Glades, Oki-fenokie, most of the Civil War battlesites
(tell me that Vicksberg wound't have a high background count)...
Oh, yeh, lots of fun stuff. At that is leaving out the New Klan and
Awakened rednecks.




CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 10
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:29:51 -0400
Once upon a time, IronRaven wrote;

>At 23.56 07-12-99 -0400, you wrote:
>>Yep,.. I'd like to see some more info on Atlanta, New Orleans.
>>Hey, port cities, Wilmington NC, Charleston SC, Savanna GA.
>>:-)
>
> Hunting for the fountain of youth, the Texas frontier, New Orleans and the
>bouyes (sp), the 'Glades, Oki-fenokie, most of the Civil War battlesites
>(tell me that Vicksberg wound't have a high background count)...
> Oh, yeh, lots of fun stuff. At that is leaving out the New Klan and
>Awakened rednecks.

Cherokee Nation, Lost Colony of Roanoke, forgotten pirate hideouts,
Biltomore Estate, Good ol' Boy networks, and Awakened Kudzu.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 11
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:04:20 +0100
In article <3.0.3.32.19990712133924.008da530@***.softhome.net>,
IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net> writes
>At 12.46 07-12-99 -0400, you wrote:
>> Go ahead and dismiss CAS why don't you. Yet again proving the
>
> I don't, and I am looking at a picture of one my ancestors and his buddies
>standing in Atlanta. <g'ing & ducking>
>
> I generally treat the CAS as one of the best hopes of North America
>becoming a world player again, complete with carrier groups and "overseas"
>expeditionary forces

UCAS definitely has them - one major carrier in the Pacific, plus a class of
LHAs or LPDs, given in the source material. I'd think CAS had more of a
coastal force, heavy on fire support and trade protection and amphibious
forces; light on air power and area AAW because the fighting's going to be
within range of shore.

>(including, if I ever run anything in that area of
>time-space, some forces providing support for Bug City, along with Ares and
>NAN troops). Personally, I think a book on the CAS would sell as well, if
>not better than, Target: UCAS, simply because there is higher reading on
>the "wierd-sh**o-meter" is some parts of the south.

I'd figure CAS would have less blue-water naval muscle than UCAS, but be
notably stronger in land and air forces - after all, they've got a hostile
border with Aztlan and a _lot_ of Confederates would want their land
back...

>(the only Yankee to admit to actually like grits)

Are grits anything like polenta?

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 12
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:42:57 -0400
Once upon a time, Paul J. Adam wrote;

>I'd figure CAS would have less blue-water naval muscle than UCAS, but be
>notably stronger in land and air forces - after all, they've got a hostile
>border with Aztlan and a _lot_ of Confederates would want their land
>back...

Damn straight!
Message no. 13
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:22:26 -0400
At 18.04 07-13-99 +0100, you wrote:
>UCAS definitely has them - one major carrier in the Pacific, plus a class of

I know about the pocket carrier that was part of the Bug City taskforce,
but not about anything in the Pacific. Obout how big is the UCAS Armed
Forces? Esp. the navy.

>LHAs or LPDs, given in the source material. I'd think CAS had more of a
>coastal force, heavy on fire support and trade protection and amphibious

I'm surprised. Given the fact the only NorAm nations that have more
coastline are the Carib League and Atzlan, the later of which doesn't not
seem very friendly. I'd be sinking modified oil platforms every 10-15
clicks along the edge of national waters and arming them to teeth, backed
up with subs, gunboats and so many drones that if they formed up in a tight
formation, it could be seen from orbit.

>border with Aztlan and a _lot_ of Confederates would want their land
>back...

Amphib and lots of sea-borne fire power make sense for that reason, unless
the League owns the Gulf of Mexico.


CyberRaven
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 14
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:27:09 -0400
At 04:22 PM 7/13/99 , IronRaven wrote:
>At 18.04 07-13-99 +0100, you wrote:
> >UCAS definitely has them - one major carrier in the Pacific, plus a class of
>
> I know about the pocket carrier that was part of the Bug City
> taskforce,
>but not about anything in the Pacific. Obout how big is the UCAS Armed
>Forces? Esp. the navy.

I was just reading New Seattle last night. Under the Urban Combat simulator
it mentions that the UCAS army has 5 divisions. I forget how that compares
to the US now, as my "How to Make War" book is at home.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 15
From: Dave Post caelric@****.com
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:21:51 -0700
At 04:27 PM 7/13/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 04:22 PM 7/13/99 , IronRaven wrote:
>>At 18.04 07-13-99 +0100, you wrote:
>> >UCAS definitely has them - one major carrier in the Pacific, plus a
class of
>>
>> I know about the pocket carrier that was part of the Bug City
>> taskforce,
>>but not about anything in the Pacific. Obout how big is the UCAS Armed
>>Forces? Esp. the navy.
>
>I was just reading New Seattle last night. Under the Urban Combat simulator
>it mentions that the UCAS army has 5 divisions. I forget how that compares
>to the US now, as my "How to Make War" book is at home.
>
>Sommers
>Insert witty quote here.
>
>
>

Well, I can speak for the USMC, which has 3 active duty divisions, 3 air
wings (air power equivalent of divisions), and 3 force service support
groups (each one is complete support for one division/air wing) Alsdo,
there is one each reservist version of these.

As for the Army, I believe, although don't quote me on this, that the army
has in the neighborhood of 14 active duty divisions. One thing with the
army, though, is that their divisions are specialized. By that, I mean,
they have heavy (mechanized) divisions, light infantry divisions (walk
everywhere), airborne (parachute in), air assault (in by helo), and air
cavalry.

The Marine Corps divisions are roughly equivalent to an army air assault
division, but with some extra capabilites.

On a side note, I just completed USMC officer candidates school, and let me
tell you, 10 years ago when I wen through boot camp, I thought it was
tough....after going through OCS, I can vouch that it is what us Americans
would call an 'ass-kicker'!

Dave
Message no. 16
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:26:27 +0200
> According to Dennis Steinmeijer, at 11:25 on 12 Jul 99, the word on
> the street was...
>
> > The Netherlands is so small and insignificant, and our language is more
> > of a throat disease than it is a language, that we HAVE to know about
> > other countries and other languages. I have the feeling Gurth is going
> > to disagree when he reads this.
>
> He most certainly does...
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

Hehe, sorry buddy. Didn't want to step on your patriotism. But everybody his
own opinion :)

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 17
From: arcady@***.net arcady@***.net
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 99 15:32:57 +700
>At 23.56 07-12-99 -0400, you wrote:
>>Yep,.. I'd like to see some more info on Atlanta, New Orleans.
>>Hey, port cities, Wilmington NC, Charleston SC, Savanna GA.
>>:-)
>
> Hunting for the fountain of youth, the Texas frontier, New Orleans and the

>bouyes (sp), the 'Glades, Oki-fenokie, most of the Civil War battlesites
>(tell me that Vicksberg wound't have a high background count)...

Three events on US soil would have caused the most spiritual disturbance:

The massacre of the indiginous population and subsequent desecration of their
sacred sites.
Slavery.
The Civil War.

Of these the last was the shortest with the least number of deaths and in the
most concentrated locations (ie, not as widespread).

I've always been of the opinion that the entire nation has in a way a high level
of energy that could be tapped into by the right forces. I'd presume that this
is one major reason why the Ghost Dance was such a success and why it was natives
who got magic first. In it's soul, the land of North America has been 'spiritually
shaped' over tens of thousands of years. It knows who it belongs to...

Australia of 2060 likely has the same issue. The land itself knows it has been
violated.
Message no. 18
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:16:38 +0100
In article <3.0.3.32.19990713162226.008ef8d0@***.softhome.net>,
IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net> writes
>At 18.04 07-13-99 +0100, you wrote:
>>UCAS definitely has them - one major carrier in the Pacific, plus a class of
>
> I know about the pocket carrier that was part of the Bug City taskforce,
>but not about anything in the Pacific.

The module "Elven Fire" gives us the supercarrier "Koontz" pulling
into
Seattle - so the UCAS still has some serious muscle. Especially because the
situation in that module blew up too fast to race a carrier group through
the Panama Canal, let alone around the Cape.

>Obout how big is the UCAS Armed
>Forces? Esp. the navy.

Never clearly stated. I personally figure about six carriers, twelve
amphibious ships, ~80 escorts (destroyers and frigates), twenty-five or so
SSNs and eight to ten boomers, plus assorted auxiliaries and support craft.

>>LHAs or LPDs, given in the source material. I'd think CAS had more of a
>>coastal force, heavy on fire support and trade protection and amphibious
>
> I'm surprised. Given the fact the only NorAm nations that have more
>coastline are the Carib League and Atzlan, the later of which doesn't not
>seem very friendly. I'd be sinking modified oil platforms every 10-15
>clicks along the edge of national waters and arming them to teeth, backed
>up with subs, gunboats and so many drones that if they formed up in a tight
>formation, it could be seen from orbit.

Land-based tube and rocket artillery with BattleTac and organic drones for
targeting, will wreak holy hell on amphibious invasion. The CAS warplan
probably centres on a big landing in the Yucatan, where they have local
support to disrupt said shore defences.

Why bother with (fixed, obvious) oil platforms? They draw fire. Fishing
boats flying the Carib League flag. Or, if you play the politics right, the
Red Ensign (British merchant colours)

Okay, so they have a few too many aerials on the mast, is that a
_crime_? You're going to shoot at neutral shipping and add a new enemy
to your war? But if you don't... they're broadcasting your every move.

>>border with Aztlan and a _lot_ of Confederates would want their land
>>back...
>
> Amphib and lots of sea-borne fire power make sense for that reason,
>unless
>the League owns the Gulf of Mexico.

I can't see Carib League having much of a navy. One hell of a merchant
fleet, on the same terms as Panama, Liberia or Cyprus today... but not
much of a navy.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 19
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:07:59 +0100
In article <4.2.0.58.19990713162558.00957960@*****.engin.umich.edu>,
Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu> writes
>I was just reading New Seattle last night. Under the Urban Combat simulator
>it mentions that the UCAS army has 5 divisions. I forget how that compares
>to the US now, as my "How to Make War" book is at home.

About a third of Reagan-era peak and half what they have now.

By that rule of thumb, think six carrier battle groups (makes for a nice
split: two PACFLT, four LANTLFT), two dozen SSNs and twelve ARGs.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 20
From: lomion lomion@*********.escnd1.sdca.home.com
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:51:06 -0700
>I've always been of the opinion that the entire nation has in a way a high
>level
>of energy that could be tapped into by the right forces. I'd presume that this
>is one major reason why the Ghost Dance was such a success and why it was
>natives
>who got magic first. In it's soul, the land of North America has been
>'spiritually
>shaped' over tens of thousands of years. It knows who it belongs to...

The same can be said of most euorpean countries too though. Also of
africa, pretty much anywhere man has lived for a long period of time.

>Australia of 2060 likely has the same issue. The land itself knows it has been
>violated.
>
Message no. 21
From: arcady@***.net arcady@***.net
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 99 16:37:27 +700
>
>>I've always been of the opinion that the entire nation has in a way a high

>>level
>>of energy that could be tapped into by the right forces. I'd presume that
this
>>is one major reason why the Ghost Dance was such a success and why it was

>>natives
>>who got magic first. In it's soul, the land of North America has been
>>'spiritually
>>shaped' over tens of thousands of years. It knows who it belongs to...
>
>The same can be said of most euorpean countries too though. Also of
>africa, pretty much anywhere man has lived for a long period of time.

Not really.
Europe is still in the hands of it's rightful owners.
Message no. 22
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:07:07 -0400
At 23.16 07-13-99 +0100, you wrote:
>The module "Elven Fire" gives us the supercarrier "Koontz" pulling
into
>Seattle - so the UCAS still has some serious muscle. Especially because the

OK, this raises the next question: who else has this kind of equipement?
CAS, Japan, Australasia, Atzlan, the UK, maybe Germany, maybe whatever is
left of Russia, who else? And do the corps?

>Land-based tube and rocket artillery with BattleTac and organic drones for
>targeting, will wreak holy hell on amphibious invasion. The CAS warplan

It starts off as dual of SpecOps, drones and aircraft, just like the last
time anyone was despirerate enough to try amphib work on a large scale.

>probably centres on a big landing in the Yucatan, where they have local
>support to disrupt said shore defences.

Guerillas?

>Why bother with (fixed, obvious) oil platforms? They draw fire. Fishing

So do shore positions.
Replace them with submersiable battle cruisers and pocket carriers and
large airships, then.

>boats flying the Carib League flag. Or, if you play the politics right, the
>Red Ensign (British merchant colours)

That can get tricky when it is a constant deployment.

>I can't see Carib League having much of a navy. One hell of a merchant
>fleet, on the same terms as Panama, Liberia or Cyprus today... but not

I can see arming merchentmen, it's been done before. And with today's
technology, much less and the majic of SR, allows anyone who can field a
30m vessel or attack aircraft to kill ships of the line. Just sk the RN.
By following that logic, you can say that surface navies are obsolete.


CyberRaven
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 23
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:09:19 -0400
At 16.37 07-13-99 +700, you wrote:
>Europe is still in the hands of it's rightful owners.

The Greeks, the Romans, the Huns, the Cossacks, the Moors, the Crusades,
the Inquisition and a thousand (un)holy wars, WWI, WWII, the Hundred Years
War, Napoleon....
I think the background count would be high enough.


CyberRaven
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 24
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:27:05 -0500
> >Yep,.. I'd like to see some more info on Atlanta, New Orleans.
> >Hey, port cities, Wilmington NC, Charleston SC, Savanna GA.
>
> Hunting for the fountain of youth, the Texas frontier, New Orleans and
> the bouyes (sp), the 'Glades, Oki-fenokie, most of the Civil War battle-
> sites (tell me that Vicksberg wound't have a high background count)...

Bayous and Okefenokee, respectively.

And I think there'd be more of a BG count at Antietam, personally, but that
could just be me.

> Oh, yeh, lots of fun stuff. At that is leaving out the New Klan and
> Awakened rednecks.

I like the notion of Awakened rednecks, but let's leave the Klan out of
this. It's trogs like them that give the South a bad name.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 25
From: Da Twink Daddy datwinkdaddy@*********.com
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:58:18 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.net>

> I like the notion of Awakened rednecks, but let's leave the Klan out
of
> this. It's trogs like them that give the South a bad name.

Hey, the Klan is well and alive now, although they [I'm NOT a member]
are not very active due to 'social prejudice' against them. (IMO, They
don't really have much room to talk...)

Anyway, what makes you think they will have disappeared by 2060; I
think they'd have found much *more* to hate. MetaHumanity etc.

Da Twink Daddy
bss03@*******.uark.edu
ICQ# 514984
Message no. 26
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:07:26 -0500
> > I generally treat the CAS as one of the best hopes of North America
> >becoming a world player again, complete with carrier groups and
> >"overseas" expeditionary forces
>
> UCAS definitely has them - one major carrier in the Pacific, plus a class
> of LHAs or LPDs, given in the source material.

Er, not to sound unduly idiotic or ignorant or much of anything else
beginning with "i", but what do those last two acronyms stand for?

> I'd think CAS had more of a coastal force, heavy on fire support and
> trade protection and amphibious forces; light on air power and area AAW
> because the fighting's going to be within range of shore.

This is pretty much along the same lines I was thinking.

> I'd figure CAS would have less blue-water naval muscle than UCAS, but be
> notably stronger in land and air forces - after all, they've got a hostile
> border with Aztlan and a _lot_ of Confederates would want their land
> back...

Funny you should mention that....

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 27
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: the value of education
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:07:28 -0500
> On a side note, I just completed USMC officer candidates school....

Congratulations, Lieutenant. That one's a major bitch.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 28
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:46:56 -0400
On 13 Jul 99, at 11:29, MC23 wrote:

> Cherokee Nation, Lost Colony of Roanoke, forgotten pirate hideouts,
> Biltomore Estate, Good ol' Boy networks, and Awakened Kudzu.

Ye know,.. yer gittin' real close to home now,... :-)

(Here in Sylva, NC, USA)

---
Speak softly and carry a plus-six bastard sword.
--source unknown


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 29
From: Damian Robinson max.robinson@**.net.au
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:45:25 +1000
Patrick Goodman wrote:

> > UCAS definitely has them - one major carrier in the Pacific, plus a > >
class of LHAs or LPDs, given in the source material.
>
> Er, not to sound unduly idiotic or ignorant or much of anything else
> beginning with "i", but what do those last two acronyms stand for?

What they actually stand for escapes me, but they are the Marine
carrier & transport. They hold (IIRC) a marine battalion, plus most of
the air support that the MEU (Marine Expeditionary Unit) has
available. They hold about 8-12 harrier II's, a Squadron of Sea
Cobra's, plus all the transport Helo's.

http://www.usmc.mil/

is a good place to get info on the MEU's.
<Plug>
Plus my SR page
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dreamworld/4808/Shadowrun.html
has a vehicle that is planned for service in the American Marine
Corp(s) in the next millenium.
</plug>
--
Cheers
Damian

Home Page:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dreamworld/4808/
pay a visit, and please don't forget the Guestbook...

ICQ?
#14030875
Message no. 30
From: Damian Robinson max.robinson@**.net.au
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:15:07 +1000
> Er, not to sound unduly idiotic or ignorant or much of anything else
> beginning with "i", but what do those last two acronyms stand for?

found (cause I wanted to know as well) this list of what the navy
means by its designations.

http://www.warships1.com/index_ships_list.htm

--
Cheers
Damian

Home Page:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dreamworld/4808/
pay a visit, and please don't forget the Guestbook...

ICQ?
#14030875
Message no. 31
From: DV8 gyro@********.co.za
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:59:37 +0200
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.com>
To: ShadowRN <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 13 July 1999 05:54
Subject: RE: the value of education
>Once upon a time, IronRaven wrote;
>
>>At 23.56 07-12-99 -0400, you wrote:
>>>Yep,.. I'd like to see some more info on Atlanta, New Orleans.
>>>Hey, port cities, Wilmington NC, Charleston SC, Savanna GA.
>>>:-)
>>
>> Hunting for the fountain of youth, the Texas frontier, New Orleans
and the
>>bouyes (sp), the 'Glades, Oki-fenokie, most of the Civil War
battlesites
>>(tell me that Vicksberg wound't have a high background count)...
>> Oh, yeh, lots of fun stuff. At that is leaving out the New Klan
and
>>Awakened rednecks.
>
> Cherokee Nation, Lost Colony of Roanoke, forgotten pirate
hideouts,
>Biltomore Estate, Good ol' Boy networks, and Awakened Kudzu.
>
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
><>
> I am MC23

Now with al these good ideas, I would think the two of you could
submit a kickass
article on the CAS for the next issue of NAGEE. Please. :)

- - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>
Message no. 32
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:53:27 -0400
Once upon a time, Darrell L. Bowman wrote;

>> Cherokee Nation, Lost Colony of Roanoke, forgotten pirate hideouts,
>> Biltomore Estate, Good ol' Boy networks, and Awakened Kudzu.
>
>Ye know,.. yer gittin' real close to home now,... :-)
>
>(Here in Sylva, NC, USA)

There is a reason for that.

-MC23, who is living the banking capital of the South-
Message no. 33
From: JonSzeto@***.com JonSzeto@***.com
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:46:10 EDT
Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu> wrote,

> I was just reading New Seattle last night. Under the Urban Combat simulator
> it mentions that the UCAS army has 5 divisions. I forget how that compares
> to the US now, as my "How to Make War" book is at home.

The US currently has ten active combat divisions in the Army (whoever
said 14 has missed the last 10 or so years of drawdown, but since said
poster admitted to having a jar for a head, that's understandable. <g,d&r>)

These ten (and their stations) currently are:

1ID: 1st Infantry (Mechanized) Division (Fort Reilly, Kansas and
Germany)
2ID: 2nd Infantry Division (Korea)
3ID: 3rd Infantry (Mechanized) Division (Fort Stewart, Georgia)
4ID: 4th Infantry (Mechanized) Division (Fort Hood, Texas)
10ID: 10th Infantry (Mountain) Division (Fort Drum, New York)
25ID: 25th Infantry (Light) Division (Schofield Barracks, Hawaii)
82ID: 82nd Infantry (Airborne) Division (Fort Bragg, North Carolina)
101ID: 101st Infantry (Air Assault) Division (Fort Campbell, Kentucky)
1AD: 1st Armored Division (Fort Reily, Kansas and Germany)
1CAV: 1st Cavalry Division (Fort Hood, Texas)

Here's my 2 cents about what I think the military situation is like in
2060:

* The five divisions that belong to the UCAS are 1ID (assigned to JTF:
Seattle), 2ID (stationed somewhere in what used to be Manitoba or
Ontario), 10ID, 101ID, and 1AD (redeployed to Fort Knox). The CAS has
the other six combat divisions: 3ID, 4ID, 25 ID (stationed at Fort Polk,
Louisiana), 82ID, 2nd Armored Division (reactivated and stationed at
Fort Hood), 1CAV. Both sides also have an as-yet uncounted number (no
more than 6 per side) of separate regiments (UCAS) or brigades (CAS).

* Collectively, the NANs have roughly three divisions' worth of ground
troops. Since virtually all NAN officers used to serve in the US
military, their orders of battle, combat doctrine, and rank structures
are not too different from that of the old US. The largest is in the
Sioux, which actually fields one combat division. Most of the others
field multiple brigade or battalion-sized units.

* The UCAS has approximately six carriers with their associated air
wings and battlegroups. The Confederate surface navy is much smaller and
more localized in scope (brown-water in naval lingo), consisting of
surface action groups centered around heavy (nuclear-powered) cruisers,
with most air support being ground-based (okay, maybe one or two
aircraft carriers). However, the CAS makes up for this combat deficit
with heavy strategic naval assets: nuclear missile submarines (SSBNs).

* Come to think of it, the CAS would probably have more subs (SSNs,
SSBNs, SSGNs (1), and SSVNs(2)) than anyone else in the world, except
Russia and Japan. (The Confederacy is, after all, the first "country" to
deploy a submarine in actual combat.)

(1) SSGN: Missile submarines carrying conventional antishipping or land
attack missiles. One example is the old Soviet Oscar-class sub, which
was armed with Sunburn antiship missiles.

(2) SSVN: Aircraft-carrying submarines, particularly unmanned combat
drones (called UCAVs in RL military lingo). This is a concept I had
tossed around with K and AirWasp. An interesting idea, though I'll admit
it shows limited tactical or strategic potential.

My $0.02.

-- Jon
Message no. 34
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:52:39 -0400
Once upon a time, Jon Szeto wrote;

>* Come to think of it, the CAS would probably have more subs (SSNs,
>SSBNs, SSGNs (1), and SSVNs(2)) than anyone else in the world, except
>Russia and Japan. (The Confederacy is, after all, the first "country" to
>deploy a submarine in actual combat.)

My naval lore is very limited but I'm confident the CAS would have a
ship christened the Merrimac within its line. (Even though the original
ironclad was rechristened the Virginia).

>(1) SSGN: Missile submarines carrying conventional antishipping or land
>attack missiles. One example is the old Soviet Oscar-class sub, which
>was armed with Sunburn antiship missiles.
>
>(2) SSVN: Aircraft-carrying submarines, particularly unmanned combat
>drones (called UCAVs in RL military lingo). This is a concept I had
>tossed around with K and AirWasp. An interesting idea, though I'll admit
>it shows limited tactical or strategic potential.

I don't care, I like! I'm sure there are many unofficial military
actions being undertaken against Aztlan where this could be more useful.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 35
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:44:20 -0400
At 07:52 AM 7/14/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Once upon a time, Jon Szeto wrote;
>
> >* Come to think of it, the CAS would probably have more subs (SSNs,
> >SSBNs, SSGNs (1), and SSVNs(2)) than anyone else in the world, except
> >Russia and Japan. (The Confederacy is, after all, the first "country"
to
> >deploy a submarine in actual combat.)
>
> My naval lore is very limited but I'm confident the CAS would have a
>ship christened the Merrimac within its line. (Even though the original
>ironclad was rechristened the Virginia).

TNT is running a movie on the first submarine used in warfare, the Hunley.
It was a leaky 12 man affair run by hand, by I think that it actually did
something effective in the war like sink a ship. I still haven't had a
chance to watch it yet. I also thought that there was a 2 person job used
during the American Revolution, but it might not have been successful at
sinking anything.

So is there an attack submarine CSS Hunley?

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 36
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:54:20 CST
>At 23.16 07-13-99 +0100, you wrote:
> OK, this raises the next question: who else has this kind of equipement?
>CAS, Japan, Australasia, Atzlan, the UK, maybe Germany, maybe whatever is
>left of Russia, who else? And do the corps?

Hmmm. Good question.

CAS - most likely (I would think that they would have a well-equipped
armed forces due to Aztlan being right south of them.)

Japan - probably, they seem to have gone back to their Imperial ways and
have learned the lesson of Better equipment.

Austalasia - I doubt it, tho' I could be wrong.

Aztlan - If they don't, Aztechnology does (read Aztlan to get a better
idea.)

The UK - I don't think so, but I may be wrong.

Germany - I doubt it.

Russia - I don't think they would have anything that size, but then again,
Japan is really close...

The Corps - Ares, SK, Aztechnology - sure. They all have Big militaries.
The others - probably not anything that big. Yamatetsu doesn't even have an
army (Corporate Shadowfiles).
>
> >Land-based tube and rocket artillery with BattleTac and organic drones
>for
> >targeting, will wreak holy hell on amphibious invasion. The CAS warplan
>
> It starts off as dual of SpecOps, drones and aircraft, just like the last
>time anyone was despirerate enough to try amphib work on a large scale.
>
> >probably centres on a big landing in the Yucatan, where they have local
> >support to disrupt said shore defences.
>
> Guerillas?
>
> >Why bother with (fixed, obvious) oil platforms? They draw fire. Fishing
>
> So do shore positions.
> Replace them with submersiable battle cruisers and pocket carriers and
>large airships, then.
>
> >boats flying the Carib League flag. Or, if you play the politics right,
>the
> >Red Ensign (British merchant colours)
>
> That can get tricky when it is a constant deployment.
>
> >I can't see Carib League having much of a navy. One hell of a merchant
> >fleet, on the same terms as Panama, Liberia or Cyprus today... but not
>
> I can see arming merchentmen, it's been done before. And with today's
>technology, much less and the majic of SR, allows anyone who can field a
>30m vessel or attack aircraft to kill ships of the line. Just sk the RN.
>By following that logic, you can say that surface navies are obsolete.
>
>
>CyberRaven
>http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
>"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
>Dismemberment."
>"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
>
>
>
>
>
>


Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 37
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:01:13 +0100
In article <3.0.3.32.19990713200707.008fa430@***.softhome.net>,
IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net> writes
>At 23.16 07-13-99 +0100, you wrote:
>>The module "Elven Fire" gives us the supercarrier "Koontz"
pulling into
>>Seattle - so the UCAS still has some serious muscle. Especially because the
>
> OK, this raises the next question: who else has this kind of equipement?
>CAS, Japan, Australasia, Atzlan, the UK, maybe Germany, maybe whatever is
>left of Russia, who else?

Carriers - the UCAS, Japan (described in Rigger 2), the UK (I'd say two
~40,000-tonners, about half the size of a current Nimitz). Maybe France,
probably not (their navy is withering, partly because they got too
ambitious with their CVN project).

Not Aztlan, not Germany. CAS... probably not, their worries are mostly
local and centre on Aztlan and maybe Carib League. Australasia... don't
know.

>And do the corps?

No. Can't see "corporate navies" being much more than escort frigates at
most... more likely they'd offload the business of maritime security to
nations. They can't win an naval arms race, so why even try? Make money
building and selling the ships rather than spend money running them :)

>>Land-based tube and rocket artillery with BattleTac and organic drones for
>>targeting, will wreak holy hell on amphibious invasion. The CAS warplan
>
> It starts off as dual of SpecOps, drones and aircraft, just like the last
>time anyone was despirerate enough to try amphib work on a large scale.
>
>>probably centres on a big landing in the Yucatan, where they have local
>>support to disrupt said shore defences.
>
> Guerillas?

Yep, there's apparently a pretty serious insurgency underway in the
Yucatan, fronted by a feathered serpent called Hualpa: and if the CAS
(and quite possibly the UCAS) aren't discreetly supporting it then I'll be very
surprised.

>>Why bother with (fixed, obvious) oil platforms? They draw fire. Fishing
>
> So do shore positions.

SP artillery isn't easily spotted until it fires, and can be moving at thirty
miles an hour before the last round hits. Shoot and scoot.

> Replace them with submersiable battle cruisers

Expensive. _Very_ expensive.

>>boats flying the Carib League flag. Or, if you play the politics right, the
>>Red Ensign (British merchant colours)
>
> That can get tricky when it is a constant deployment.

Yep. But, the Russians managed to do it with their "trawler fleet", and we
did the same to them with fishing boats off Murmansk...

>>I can't see Carib League having much of a navy. One hell of a merchant
>>fleet, on the same terms as Panama, Liberia or Cyprus today... but not
>
> I can see arming merchentmen, it's been done before.

Being done now (a ship carrying plutonium from Sellafield to Japan) and
discussed often. Not usually effective as a means of destroying the
enemy, but useful for deterrent fire: on Malta runs in 1942, arming
merchant ships with Oerlikons halved their loss rate because the
enthusiastic if inaccurate fire spoiled the aim of German and Italian
aircrew. Very few kills were scored, though.

>And with today's
>technology, much less and the majic of SR, allows anyone who can field a
>30m vessel or attack aircraft to kill ships of the line. Just sk the RN.

Beg to differ, there. Look at Iraq's performance in the Gulf War... their
navy and coastal forces, numerous and packing a lot of weaponry,
managed to launch a total of two ASMs at Coalition ships. (One failed to
guide, the other was shot down by HMS Gloucester) Meanwhile, RN
helicopters exterminated Iraq's patrol boats and fast attack craft.

Ditto for Preying Mantis in 1988, when a detachment of the US Navy sank
half Iran's surface force in a single day.

In 1982, the Argentinian air forces and naval air arm lost fifty-nine
aircraft in the air (and another thirty on the ground) in the course of the
war. They managed to sink six ships (two destroyers, two frigates, two
auxiliaries) but lost the war: and they were a major regional power,
fighting in their own back yard, against an enemy with a 6,000-mile
supply line. Their surface navy lost its major unit and withdrew to port:
their submarines didn't manage a single successful attack and one was
caught and sunk.


It's a recurring theme of warfare and particularly naval warfare that "giant
killer" weapons keep appearing: new stones for David's sling, that will allow
small, cheap units to topple the Goliaths of the established naval forces.
The "jeune ecole" embraced the torpedo boat, then the submarine, then
the antiship cruise missile and fast attack craft... but in all cases, small,
light forces have fared very poorly against more conventional fleets. For
instance, at the battle of the Surigao Strait, 39 US torpedo boats failed to
inflict a single hit on Nishimura's force (by contrast, the subsequent
destroyer torpedo attacks sank the battleship Fuso and several Japanese
destroyers).

The problem is that the weapon is the last link in the chain. A missile boat
and a destroyer carry the same armament of eight antiship missiles, but
the destroyer has more sensors carried higher, embarks a helicopter or
two, and has much more self-defence capability (SAMs, guns,
countermeasures) - it is much more able to find the enemy without being
found itself, fire its weapons accurately, and survive any counterfire. Most
FACs find themselves sunk without ever seeing a target, in exercises and
so far in reality. Similarly, aircraft attacking a carrier group need to
search and _find_ it first, rendering themselves vulnerable to CAP cued by
airborne early warning. (The lack of AEW cost us at least three ships in
the Falklands and was _very_ rapidly amended)

FACs have their use for inshore defence under air cover and as part of an
integrated defence network - Norway, Sweden and Germany all make use
of them in this role - but their record to date is dismal.


>By following that logic, you can say that surface navies are obsolete.

Ask a submariner and they'll tell you that's so.


It depends on your mission. If you merely wish to deny the sea to an
enemy, then submarines and aircraft can harry and attack surface
shipping - both World Wars showed that, and it was Soviet strategy all
through the Cold War as well.

If you intend to _use_ the sea to move either military supplies or trade
goods, then you need surface ships. To protect them against the range of
threats they face, warships remain the best option: submarines can't deal
with aircraft, aircraft lack persistence for the defensive role.



--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 38
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:47:41 +0100
In article <LOBBIPDLJBEHDFLDFEKMIECADGAA.remo@***.net>, Patrick
Goodman <remo@***.net> writes
>> > I generally treat the CAS as one of the best hopes of North America
>> >becoming a world player again, complete with carrier groups and
>> >"overseas" expeditionary forces
>>
>> UCAS definitely has them - one major carrier in the Pacific, plus a class
>> of LHAs or LPDs, given in the source material.
>
>Er, not to sound unduly idiotic or ignorant or much of anything else
>beginning with "i", but what do those last two acronyms stand for?

Amphibious warfare ships. LPD - Landing Platform Dock, LPH - Landing
Platform Helicopter.

LHA - not sure what it stands for but they're the Wasp-class, multirole
ships with both welldeck capability (for landing craft) and flight decks for
helicopters and Harriers, plus full command and control facilities.

Typically carry a battalion to a brigade (500-2000 depending on the ship)
of Marines and the airpower and landing craft to get them to shore and
support them.

Try

http://www.uss-salem.org/navhist/carriers/us_assau.htm#wa-cl

and

http://www.uss-salem.org/navhist/carriers/us_assau.htm#tar-cl

for current examples and specifications.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 39
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:18:28 +0100
In article <39615ab.24bdc472@***.com>, JonSzeto@***.com writes

<interesting stuff snipped>

>(2) SSVN: Aircraft-carrying submarines, particularly unmanned combat
>drones (called UCAVs in RL military lingo). This is a concept I had
>tossed around with K and AirWasp. An interesting idea, though I'll admit
>it shows limited tactical or strategic potential.

There was a 1960s design study for a submersible aircraft carrier. On
40,000 tons (twice the size of an Ohio-class SSBN) it could carry six
aircraft at most, while a conventional surface carrier of similar size could
carry thirty to forty aircraft.

Submarines don't do aviation very well: aircraft are bulky and subs are
volume-critical, plus conducting flight operations traps you on the surface.



I really ought to put together that submission for an Armed Forces Of The
World sourcebook :) Interesting that Jon's views on the UCAS navy were so
close to mine...
--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 40
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:23:00 +0100
In article <19990714165421.86024.qmail@*******.com>, Geoffrey Haacke
<knight_errant30@*******.com> writes
> The Corps - Ares, SK, Aztechnology - sure. They all have Big militaries.

"Big"? About 1,500 men at most. Corporations don't have much military
power: it's not profitable. If you need it, hire mercenaries...


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 41
From: Arclight arclight@**************.com
Subject: the value of education
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:34:54 +0200
And finally, Paul J. Adam expressed himself by writing:

[Aircraft Carriers]

> Not Aztlan, not Germany. CAS... probably not, their worries are mostly
> local and centre on Aztlan and maybe Carib League. Australasia... don't
> know.

I would give MET2000 at least one LHA-like carrier (LHA means "amphibious
assault ship"... strange). The german Bundeswehr evaluated procuring
one, but they are a bit short on funds ATM, so to say :).
MET would definitely need one, as they operate around the world; I don't
think they do all this with airborne capability alone.

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
"It may not be war, but it sure as hell ain't peace"
Major General Steven Arnold - On Somalia
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 42
From: Veskrashen veskrashen@*******.com
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:18:11 -1100
Geoffrey Haacke wrote:
> > OK, this raises the next question: who else has this kind of equipement?
> >CAS, Japan, Australasia, Atzlan, the UK, maybe Germany, maybe whatever is
> >left of Russia, who else? And do the corps?
>
> Russia - I don't think they would have anything that size, but then again,
> Japan is really close...

Well, right now Russia only has one "carrier", the Kuznetsov, and they
class it as a heavy cruiser anyway. The thing is armed to the teeth with
guided missiles and a few guns, and carries a variant of the SU-27. The
older Kiev class, all of which are decommissioned, and one of which is
soon to become a Japanese floating karaoke bar from hell (the Kiev,
IIRC). As far as I know, the Russians have only used the Kuznetsov in a
handful of "show the flag" type ops, and other than that it pretty much
just hangs out in the North Fleet and rusts. So I doubt that they would
spend a gob of hard currency on one in 2060 Shadowrun, seeing as how
they have even more serious internal problems than they do now, and as
far as I know are not as into Global Domination as they once were.
Carriers are power projection vessels, and I doubt they'd need one.
They'd probably keep their subs, though, just to be bastards.

-Ves.
Message no. 43
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:28:13 -0400
At 19.18 07-14-99 +0100, you wrote:
>Submarines don't do aviation very well: aircraft are bulky and subs are
>volume-critical, plus conducting flight operations traps you on the surface.

Actually, with drone fighters, you could save space, becuase they can be
smaller and don't have as intensive as crew needs are regualr fighters.
Particlarly if you were using jet seaplane or tilt-jets.


CyberRaven
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 44
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:28:18 -0400
At 19.01 07-14-99 +0100, you wrote:
>Expensive. _Very_ expensive.

Missile-based, as in SSGNs? No worse than boomers.

>>30m vessel or attack aircraft to kill ships of the line. Just sk the RN.
>
>Beg to differ, there. Look at Iraq's performance in the Gulf War... their
>navy and coastal forces, numerous and packing a lot of weaponry,
>managed to launch a total of two ASMs at Coalition ships. (One failed to

Yep, because thier systems were already neutralized in large part, and
thier C4 system pretty much evaporated. There is a lot that happened that
will never be admitted to, or public discussed, but it sounds to like the
ASM facilities that survived the first ten minutes of the Tomahawk strikes
got visited by some friendly neighborhood combat swimmers, and were <cough>
recalibrated or zorched by some kind of EMP. Stuff in Tehran was knocked
out for reasons that still aren't known that first night.
I'm also thinking more of a force that is on the offensive against an
equal or inferior, not forced to be in the defensive by a supperior force.

>In 1982, the Argentinian air forces and naval air arm lost fifty-nine
>aircraft in the air (and another thirty on the ground) in the course of the

Because they were largely outclassed on the technology front, particularly
in countermeasures and detection (from the data I've seen, your sea-based
radars were a match for thier's, weren't they). Against thier equals, the
RN would have had much harder time.

>war. They managed to sink six ships (two destroyers, two frigates, two
>auxiliaries) but lost the war: and they were a major regional power,

All with missiles, right? The kind that can be mounted on a vessel of 30m
length or light attack aircraft.

>threats they face, warships remain the best option: submarines can't deal
>with aircraft, aircraft lack persistence for the defensive role.

And neither one of them can project force worth beans. Show the flag,
that kind of thing, is the forte of big surface assets like cruisers,
battlecruisers, battleships (I like the idea of 16" guns- a lot harder to
stop or find than missiles), and carriers. Real carriers, not those little
ski-jump toys that the Brits use. :P


CyberRaven
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 45
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:58:03 -0500
> found (cause I wanted to know as well) this list of what the navy
> means by its designations.
>
> http://www.warships1.com/index_ships_list.htm

Muchas gracias. This one gets saved....

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 46
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:58:05 -0500
> The US currently has ten active combat divisions in the Army (whoever
> said 14 has missed the last 10 or so years of drawdown, but since said
> poster admitted to having a jar for a head, that's understandable.
<g,d&r>)

<snip Jon Szeto's major discourse on the military structure of North America
in 2060>

DAMN!! *This* is something I could use...thanks a lot!

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 47
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:58:07 -0500
> >(2) SSVN: Aircraft-carrying submarines, particularly unmanned combat
> >drones (called UCAVs in RL military lingo). This is a concept I had
> >tossed around with K and AirWasp. An interesting idea, though I'll admit
> >it shows limited tactical or strategic potential.
>
> I don't care, I like! I'm sure there are many unofficial military
> actions being undertaken against Aztlan where this could be more useful.

Load it with drone racks and it's perfect!

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 48
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:58:09 -0500
> So is there an attack submarine CSS Hunley?

There is in my game.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 49
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:33:21 EDT
In a message dated 7/14/1999 7:11:57 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
mc23@**********.com writes:

> >* Come to think of it, the CAS would probably have more subs (SSNs,
> >SSBNs, SSGNs (1), and SSVNs(2)) than anyone else in the world, except
> >Russia and Japan. (The Confederacy is, after all, the first "country"
to
> >deploy a submarine in actual combat.)
>
> My naval lore is very limited but I'm confident the CAS would have a
> ship christened the Merrimac within its line. (Even though the original
> ironclad was rechristened the Virginia).

Okay, this is where my naval lore goes astray as well (sort of). As anyone
with Turner Network Television knows, they had a show titled "the Hunley" on
recently. It was about the "first" submarine ever used in a military
campaign. Hand cranked, and everything. The idea is interesting, but I'm
curious. Did this thing really exist?

> >(1) SSGN: Missile submarines carrying conventional antishipping or land
> >attack missiles. One example is the old Soviet Oscar-class sub, which
> >was armed with Sunburn antiship missiles.

Which could be launched how?

> >(2) SSVN: Aircraft-carrying submarines, particularly unmanned combat
> >drones (called UCAVs in RL military lingo). This is a concept I had
> >tossed around with K and AirWasp. An interesting idea, though I'll admit
> >it shows limited tactical or strategic potential.
>
> I don't care, I like! I'm sure there are many unofficial military
> actions being undertaken against Aztlan where this could be more useful.

It was an idea that made Mike B. bounce all over the place and drive us up
the wall. We were not long afterwards making up the thing(s) and placing
them in the game. We even made up the excuse, based upon something Jon S.
stated, that the "real" direction the "Stonewall Main Battle Tanks"
research
funds were headed was towards these things.

IF anyone has the old Micro$oft video game titled "Deadly Tide", you can
imagine what we were imagining for a more advanced "Marine Campaign" for a
while.

-K
Message no. 50
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: the value of education
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 02:17:33 +0000 (GMT)
> > >* Come to think of it, the CAS would probably have more subs
(SSNs, SSBNs, SSGNs (1), and SSVNs(2)) than anyone else in the world,
except Russia and Japan. (The Confederacy is, after all, the first
"country" to deploy a submarine in actual combat.)
> >
> > My naval lore is very limited but I'm confident the CAS would
have a ship christened the Merrimac within its line. (Even though the
original ironclad was rechristened the Virginia).
>
> Okay, this is where my naval lore goes astray as well (sort of). As
anyone with Turner Network Television knows, they had a show titled
"the Hunley" on recently. It was about the "first" submarine ever
used
in a military campaign. Hand cranked, and everything. The idea is
interesting, but I'm curious. Did this thing really exist?
<Snippage(TM)>
> -K

Yes. Well, according to what some of the guys (CyberRaven or Paul J., I
think) said earlier.

Check your backposts. It's there.

*Doc' supposes there is SOME advantage to having to read his list mail backwards...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 51
From: Hamish Laws h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: the value of education
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:24:08 +1000
At 10:54 AM 7/14/99 CST, you wrote:
>>At 23.16 07-13-99 +0100, you wrote:
>> OK, this raises the next question: who else has this kind of equipement?
>>CAS, Japan, Australasia, Atzlan, the UK, maybe Germany, maybe whatever is
>>left of Russia, who else? And do the corps?
>
> Austalasia - I doubt it, tho' I could be wrong.

I'm sure by that stage they've got most of the bugs out of the Collins
class submarine.

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
h_laws@******.net.au
Message no. 52
From: Veskrashen veskrashen@*******.com
Subject: the value of education
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:27:17 -1100
Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
> > >(1) SSGN: Missile submarines carrying conventional antishipping or land
> > >attack missiles. One example is the old Soviet Oscar-class sub, which
> > >was armed with Sunburn antiship missiles.
>
> Which could be launched how?

They're launched out the torpedo tubes. I'm not exactly sure how, other
than the fact that they use compressed air to get the out, but I know
they're launched from the tubes.

-Ves.
Message no. 53
From: JonSzeto@***.com JonSzeto@***.com
Subject: the value of education
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:11:12 EDT
"Paul J. Adam" <Paul@********.demon.co.uk> wrote,

> >(2) SSVN: Aircraft-carrying submarines, particularly unmanned combat
> >drones (called UCAVs in RL military lingo). This is a concept I had
> >tossed around with K and AirWasp. An interesting idea, though I'll admit
> >it shows limited tactical or strategic potential.
>
> There was a 1960s design study for a submersible aircraft carrier. On
> 40,000 tons (twice the size of an Ohio-class SSBN) it could carry six
> aircraft at most, while a conventional surface carrier of similar size could
> carry thirty to forty aircraft.
>
> Submarines don't do aviation very well: aircraft are bulky and subs are
> volume-critical, plus conducting flight operations traps you on the surface.

True, an SSVN wouldn't be very effective, if you use it to project power
like a regular carrier. Subs really aren't about projecting power,
they're about denying sea control to the enemy. I think SSVNs could work
somewhat effectively by extending that denial to the air. We're not
talking about rattling sabers, we're talking about plunging a dagger
into the back.

Load up an SSVN with a few "stealth" fighter-bombers and use it as a
pre-emptive strike at targets a cruise missile couldn't hit, or couldn't
hit very well. (Clinton's little escapades in Iraq and the Balkans seem
to prove to me that cruise missiles have their limits.)

An SSVN could also make a pretty decent AWACS hunter. If you sneak an
SSVN close enough "under" an AWACS, you could send a fighter or UCAV up,
shoot that AWACS down, and recover the plane before a CAP could get on
the scene. (Okay, maybe you couldn't recover the plane, but at least
you'd shoot down that AWACS. That would make it preferable to use a
UCAV.)

The same thing could apply to other slow-moving, high-value targets (C-
5s, KC-135s, diplomatic charters, and so on). If you're really
ambitious, you could even go after an orbital, semiballistic, or
suborbital during the initial launch or final re-entry stages, when it's
the least maneuverable and most vulnerable. Combined with an SSGN, an
SSVN could be a decent strategic weapon, attacking at a nation's
transportation lanes, thus crippling its logistic operations, not to
mention its trade economy.

Again, the keyword here is using surprise to beat the response time of a
carrier- or ground-launched fighter. At the very least, you'd force the
enemy to divert fighter assets as escort, fighters that won't be used to
attack your own aircraft.

IMHO.

-- Jon
Message no. 54
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: the value of education
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:17:57 +0100
In article <c844fdd2.24bfe0b0@***.com>, JonSzeto@***.com writes
>"Paul J. Adam" <Paul@********.demon.co.uk> wrote,
>> Submarines don't do aviation very well: aircraft are bulky and subs are
>> volume-critical, plus conducting flight operations traps you on the surface.
>
>True, an SSVN wouldn't be very effective, if you use it to project power
>like a regular carrier. Subs really aren't about projecting power,
>they're about denying sea control to the enemy. I think SSVNs could work
>somewhat effectively by extending that denial to the air. We're not
>talking about rattling sabers, we're talking about plunging a dagger
>into the back.

The problem is that you're either limited to doing this by the coast, or else
you have a long overland flight in which case your stealth aircraft suffers
by comparison with landbased air in that it has tighter corrosion
requirements and has a lot more folding-up to do (thus compromising its
RCS with all those extra mechanical interfaces). Notice that even the USN
has yet to make carrier-borne stealth work: the nearest they got was the
A-12 Dorito, the F-117N and F-22N were both shunned.

>Load up an SSVN with a few "stealth" fighter-bombers and use it as a
>pre-emptive strike at targets a cruise missile couldn't hit, or couldn't
>hit very well. (Clinton's little escapades in Iraq and the Balkans seem
>to prove to me that cruise missiles have their limits.)

What you want is Tactical Tomahawk - what the next-bar-one batches will
be. GPS to get you into the target area, imaging IR plus datalink for
search and attack of targets. Or LASM (Land Attack Standard Missile) -
Mach 3 speed and GPS plus inertial guidance. 0 to 150 nautical miles in
five minutes with a big bang in the nose :)


Tomahawk at present is programmed to hit a location, and there's about
a six-hour (at best, at worst _days_) lag while digital maps and mission
plans are prepared and uploaded. Even then, it takes about fifteen
minutes per 100 miles' range to reach its target: so, it doesn't do well on
snapshots :)


Where does a drone become a missile? If the mission's important enough,
who cares if you get the damn thing back? ;)

>An SSVN could also make a pretty decent AWACS hunter. If you sneak an
>SSVN close enough "under" an AWACS,

Problem - why is the AWACS over the sea? Other than that, sure, anything
that lets you take potshots at assets as vital as AWACS or JSTARS is to be
examined carefully.


An interesting AWACS-killer idea from one of the Russian arms companies
was an adaptation of one of their tactical ballistic missiles with an ARM
seeker: loft it at the general location of the AWACS from ~500 miles
away, and the missile homes on the radar emissions from above and at
alarmingly high velocity. Not sure if the AWACS would even see it
coming...

>Okay, maybe you couldn't recover the plane, but at least
>you'd shoot down that AWACS. That would make it preferable to use a
>UCAV.)

I think your SSVN overlaps with SSGN - you're giving it a new designation
because the "missiles" are still one-shot devices, but with 2060s tech they
can become _much_ more versatile. My only real objection is the idea of
recovering the aircraft - just too damn hard to do under any tactical
situation.

>If you're really
>ambitious, you could even go after an orbital, semiballistic, or
>suborbital during the initial launch or final re-entry stages, when it's
>the least maneuverable and most vulnerable. Combined with an SSGN, an
>SSVN could be a decent strategic weapon, attacking at a nation's
>transportation lanes, thus crippling its logistic operations, not to
>mention its trade economy.

Again, I'm not sure I'd seperate SSGN and SSVN... but the idea has some
interesting ramifications :)

>Again, the keyword here is using surprise to beat the response time of a
>carrier- or ground-launched fighter. At the very least, you'd force the
>enemy to divert fighter assets as escort, fighters that won't be used to
>attack your own aircraft.
>
>IMHO.

Not sure I entirely agree, but thoughtprovoking and interesting, and there
are ideas I'd _definitely_ want to steal there.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 55
From: chimerae@***.ie chimerae@***.ie
Subject: the value of education
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:02:24 +0100
And thus did arcady@***.net on 13 Jul 99, at 16:37 speak:

> >The same can be said of most euorpean countries too though. Also of
> >africa, pretty much anywhere man has lived for a long period of time.
>
> Not really.
> Europe is still in the hands of it's rightful owners.

Who might that be? The so called Aryans who originated in northern
India and pushed into Europe; or the Huns, Alans, Ostro Goths, Slavs
who invaded from middle Russia. Large groups of Ottomans who stayed
in the Balkans, likewise north African people who mixed with the
natives in Spain during the Fatimidic period. The Celts who pushed
out the native groups of people in Ireland, UK and western Europe and
where in their turn pushed out, etc. etc. etc.

People who think that they are the rightful owners of land have
causes as many wars as people who thought they had the rightful
religion. In both cases it's impossible to prove who's right or
wrong.



Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

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