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Message no. 1
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:06:42 +1000
> badger? - i found that pretty strange too.... <shrug> What, are we to expect
> that American Writers actually KNOW that there arent badgers in Australia? (or
> thats the whole continent isnt just a myth made up by hollywood... ?

Ok, maybe this comment was slightly uncalled for.. but when I last was in the
states, I had heaps of americans come up to me and ask such utterly stupid things,
like, do you have grass / trees / air (this guy was SERIOUS!) / kangaroos in your
backyard / grubs for dinner / tv / rock music / etc etc etc.

What do you guys get taught about world geography - let alone common sense
(referring to the air question).

This brings be to the SR related question..

The baisc game is based in seattle.. so whats changed in the education system by
2060? Are UCAS citizens (even the smart ones) still not taught about the rest of
the world?

GreyWolf
Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:36:23 +1000
Greywolf writes:
> like, do you have grass / trees / air (this guy was SERIOUS!) /
> kangaroos in your
> backyard / grubs for dinner / tv / rock music / etc etc etc.

I don't know about kangaroos in your backyard, but my mother-in-law
regularly has kangaroos in the front yard, and my father once looked out his
bathroom window to see a water buffalo staring back at him. :)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 3
From: Machine-gun Kelly mgkelly@****.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 23:24:36 -0400
> The baisc game is based in seattle.. so whats changed in the education system by
> 2060? Are UCAS citizens (even the smart ones) still not taught about the rest of
> the world?
>
> GreyWolf

If the corps are funding public schooling, they may or not make a big
deal about geography and other cultures. Depends on if the knowledge
will increase the productivity of their future employees.

Well, in school nowadays, you usually get a semester class at
high-school level or a year-long class at lower levels, called 'Social
Studies'. Basic run-down of other countries and cultures, as well as
Sociology. As I said, it's basic, and usually forgotten once horomones
kick in. As to the air question, people in general aren't overly bright.

MG "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals."
Kelly
--
"The gene pool needs some chlorine."
Message no. 4
From: Josh Munn barnack2@*****.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 22:13:24 -0700 (PDT)
--- Aaron Binns <sparrow@***.net.au> wrote:
> > badger? - i found that pretty strange too.... <shrug> What, are we
> to expect
> > that American Writers actually KNOW that there arent badgers in
> Australia? (or
> > thats the whole continent isnt just a myth made up by hollywood...
> ?
>
> Ok, maybe this comment was slightly uncalled for.. but when I last
> was in the
> states, I had heaps of americans come up to me and ask such utterly
> stupid things,
> like, do you have grass / trees / air (this guy was SERIOUS!) /
> kangaroos in your
> backyard / grubs for dinner / tv / rock music / etc etc etc.
>
> What do you guys get taught about world geography - let alone common
> sense
> (referring to the air question).
>
> This brings be to the SR related question..
>
> The baisc game is based in seattle.. so whats changed in the
> education system by
> 2060? Are UCAS citizens (even the smart ones) still not taught about
> the rest of
> the world?
>
> GreyWolf
>
>
I don't know how it is in Australia but hear in America we are taught
about other countries. But, as I am sure it is around the world, most
students forget it before they walk out the door. American schools do
,however, not put a great emphasis on other countries or cultures.

I do not expect this to change greatly in the shadowrun world.
>

==
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Message no. 5
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:38:44 +1000
Joshua Munn writes:
> I don't know how it is in Australia but hear in America we are taught
> about other countries. But, as I am sure it is around the world, most
> students forget it before they walk out the door. American schools do
> ,however, not put a great emphasis on other countries or cultures.
>
> I do not expect this to change greatly in the shadowrun world.

I would. My reasoning goes thusly:

IMHO, the major reason that the States seem so ignorant about other
countries is that other countries don't really influence people. They have
Canada to the north, but on the surface, it is basically the same culture
(though there are lots and lots of differences underneath... I didn't mean
to offend Canadians). To the south, they have Mexico, and the Latin American
countries, but none of these seem to be on an equal footing with the States.
The result is that the everyday American just plan doesn't have to deal with
foreigners, or think about them.

In SR, the US is history. The UCAS, while still probably being the strongest
nation on Earth (though the Japanese Empire may have something to say about
that) is vastly reduced in strength, and there are several other nations, of
comparable strength, adjacent to their borders. This would prompt a greater
awareness of their neighbours, and thus a stronger global awareness.

My apologies if my comments above offend.

--
sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 6
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 23:04:09 -0700
> Ok, maybe this comment was slightly uncalled for.. but when I
> last was in the
> states, I had heaps of americans come up to me and ask such
> utterly stupid things,
> like, do you have grass / trees / air (this guy was SERIOUS!) /
> kangaroos in your
> backyard / grubs for dinner / tv / rock music / etc etc etc.

Are you sure the air question wasn't meant to ask if you had 'open air'
where you lived? Or clean air?

Open air as in are you out in a rural plain or packed into an urban jungle
(like LA for instance).

If I were in LA or Seoul (two places I've lived before) and was asked that
question I would likely say no, followed by an explanation of the extreme
pollution and densely packed nature of the two cities. And If I had lived my
entire life in one of these two cities the concept of a place with wide open
spaces and clean air would be utterly alien to me and I would likely doubt
the honestly of the person claiming to come from such a place.

The remaining questions while worded too general could all make sense under
the right context.
Message no. 7
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:21:22 +1000
Arcady wrote:

> > Ok, maybe this comment was slightly uncalled for.. but when I
> > last was in the
> > states, I had heaps of americans come up to me and ask such
> > utterly stupid things,
> > like, do you have grass / trees / air (this guy was SERIOUS!) /
> > kangaroos in your
> > backyard / grubs for dinner / tv / rock music / etc etc etc.
>
> Are you sure the air question wasn't meant to ask if you had 'open air'
> where you lived? Or clean air?

No..Air.. like Air in general.. as thought we lived in a vacume.

> Open air as in are you out in a rural plain or packed into an urban jungle
> (like LA for instance).
>
> If I were in LA or Seoul (two places I've lived before) and was asked that
> question I would likely say no, followed by an explanation of the extreme
> pollution and densely packed nature of the two cities. And If I had lived my
> entire life in one of these two cities the concept of a place with wide open
> spaces and clean air would be utterly alien to me and I would likely doubt
> the honestly of the person claiming to come from such a place.

> The remaining questions while worded too general could all make sense under
> the right context.

Well.. I'll go back through some of the other replies and pass on the info they
ask about:

>I don't know about kangaroos in your backyard, but my mother-in-law
>regularly has kangaroos in the front yard, and my father once looked out his
>bathroom window to see a water buffalo staring back at him. :)

Well.. you get it occasionally in certain areas of the country - yes.. so under
the context of "country" or "outback" living.. it would make sense..
but these
people already had been told I lived in Sydney... and Id hope people from other
countries at least knew that Sydney was a major city/suburban area in
Australia... like Brisbane and Melbourne.

>Well, in school nowadays, you usually get a semester class at
>high-school level or a year-long class at lower levels, called 'Social
>Studies'. Basic run-down of other countries and cultures, as well as
>Sociology. As I said, it's basic, and usually forgotten once horomones
>kick in. As to the air question, people in general aren't overly bright.

Hormones are the same here. We tend to have subjects all through school and uni
which relate to other countries (either as subject studies or case studies under
other subjects). So perhaps we just get taught more about the rest of the world?

>IMHO, the major reason that the States seem so ignorant about other
>countries is that other countries don't really influence people. They have
>Canada to the north, but on the surface, it is basically the same culture
>(though there are lots and lots of differences underneath... I didn't mean
>to offend Canadians). To the south, they have Mexico, and the Latin American
>countries, but none of these seem to be on an equal footing with the States.
>The result is that the everyday American just plan doesn't have to deal with
>foreigners, or think about them.

Hmm.. well thats something Id considered as a possible reason, but i wasnt sure.
Makes sense however. You'd think they might be a little interested. After all..
there aint no place like Down Under IMHO, and Ive seen a fair bit of the rest of
the planet.

Ok.. guess what it all comes down to is a slight feeling that it would be nice
for Australia to get recognised as a sourcebook worthy location in the SR
gameworld. There have been numerous references and books written which included
Australia after all...

Anyway.. back to the normal threads off the list.

GreyWolf
Message no. 8
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 03:40:20 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Robert Watkins."
] In SR, the US is history. The UCAS, while still probably being the strongest
] nation on Earth (though the Japanese Empire may have something to say about
] that) is vastly reduced in strength, and there are several other nations, of
] comparable strength, adjacent to their borders. This would prompt a greater
] awareness of their neighbours, and thus a stronger global awareness.
]
] My apologies if my comments above offend.

Yer darned tootin' they offend! Why, if our dollar weren't so weak,
and if I wouldn't miss that nifty Fox special ("When Eggs Turn
Deadly"), I'd come down there and kick your butt! And then apologise :)

-Murder of One

(Who's kidding, of course. You made a good point up there)
Message no. 9
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 04:09:24 EDT
In a message dated 7/12/99 2:22:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sparrow@***.net.au writes:

> Ok.. guess what it all comes down to is a slight feeling that it would be
> nice
> for Australia to get recognised as a sourcebook worthy location in the SR
> gameworld. There have been numerous references and books written which
> included
> Australia after all...


Even though it's not much, hasn't there been mention in the SR books that
Australia has incredible manastorms and has become a wild, untamed land after
the Awakening? And there was the beginning of Find Your Own Truth, which
took place in Australia, IIRC, and was where Sam Verner unleashed the demon
from its warded prison accidentally. And there is the mention of Australian
totems in MitS (okay, okay, forget the damn Badger). Not a lot, but better
than being totally ignored the way some places in the SR globe have been.




-Twist
Message no. 10
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:25:01 +0200
Josh wrote:
> I don't know how it is in Australia but hear in America we are taught
> about other countries. But, as I am sure it is around the world, most
> students forget it before they walk out the door. American schools do
> ,however, not put a great emphasis on other countries or cultures.

The Netherlands is so small and insignificant, and our language is more of a
throat disease than it is a language, that we HAVE to know about other
countries and other languages. I have the feeling Gurth is going to disagree
when he reads this.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 11
From: Manx timburke@*******.com.au
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:14:48 +1000
At 12:06 12/07/99 +1000 Aaron Binns wrote
>
>What do you guys get taught about world geography - let alone common sense
>(referring to the air question).
>

<Disposable Heroes of Hiphopcrocy>
"Television is the reason why 70% of Americans
think that Central America means Kansas."
</Disposable Heroes of Hiphopcrocy>

I got a laugh out of that one. :)

Seriously though. I got asked that other day
by a guy in Arizona "What state is Australia in?"
He couldn't understand that Australia was in
fact a seperate country and not a state of the USA.
Obviously he wasn't a college graduate nor
was his knowledge indicitive of most American's.
It was however, piss funny.

:)

__________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
__________________________________
Message no. 12
From: Manx timburke@*******.com.au
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:15:45 +1000
At 12:36 12/07/99 +1000 Robert Watkins wrote
>I don't know about kangaroos in your backyard, but my mother-in-law
>regularly has kangaroos in the front yard, and my father once looked out his
>bathroom window to see a water buffalo staring back at him. :)
>
>--
>.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
>

Yeah but you do live near Ipswich don't you? :)

__________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
__________________________________
Message no. 13
From: Iridios iridios@*********.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:42:34 -0400
Josh Munn wrote:
>
> --- Aaron Binns <sparrow@***.net.au> wrote:
> > > badger? - i found that pretty strange too.... <shrug> What, are we
> > to expect
> > > that American Writers actually KNOW that there arent badgers in
> > Australia? (or
> > > thats the whole continent isnt just a myth made up by hollywood...
> > ?
> >
> > Ok, maybe this comment was slightly uncalled for.. but when I last
> > was in the
> > states, I had heaps of americans come up to me and ask such utterly
> > stupid things,
> > like, do you have grass / trees / air (this guy was SERIOUS!) /
> > kangaroos in your
> > backyard / grubs for dinner / tv / rock music / etc etc etc.
> >
> > What do you guys get taught about world geography - let alone common
> > sense
> > (referring to the air question).
> >
> > This brings be to the SR related question..
> >
> > The baisc game is based in seattle.. so whats changed in the
> > education system by
> > 2060? Are UCAS citizens (even the smart ones) still not taught about
> > the rest of
> > the world?
> >
> > GreyWolf
> >
> >
> I don't know how it is in Australia but hear in America we are taught
> about other countries. But, as I am sure it is around the world, most
> students forget it before they walk out the door. American schools do
> ,however, not put a great emphasis on other countries or cultures.

I'd have to disagree a bit. Yes some schools do put emphasis on other
countries and/or cultures while others do not. But that is not, IMO,
the reason people do not seem to know anything about other countries.
For a long time people could and would be allowed to graduate without
knowing about other countries, their own country, their own state, and
a fair amount of them couldn't even read! Why? Because, teachers and
administrators didn't want/couldn't be bothered with "problem
students". Fortunately, within the last 5 or 10 years I'm beginning
to see a change for the better.

>
> I do not expect this to change greatly in the shadowrun world.

By 2060, things could have swung back to the apathetic attitude.


--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."
Message no. 14
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:41:21 CST
>What do you guys get taught about world geography - let alone common sense
>(referring to the air question).

I still get some Americans who ask me where the igloos are (in July!). BTW
I'm Cdn.

>
>This brings be to the SR related question..
>
>The baisc game is based in seattle.. so whats changed in the education
>system by
>2060? Are UCAS citizens (even the smart ones) still not taught about the
>rest of
>the world?

Actually, that's a good question. I would say yes. The UCAS seems to
basically be the US with different territories. Canada seems to have been
more or less absorbed completely by the States so I doubt that any Cdn
institutions would still be around. So, yeah. The educational system would
not have changed overly much.

>
>GreyWolf
>
>
>


Geoff Haacke
"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."


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Message no. 15
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:30:52 -0400
At 10.41 07-12-99 CST, you wrote:
>I still get some Americans who ask me where the igloos are (in July!). BTW
>I'm Cdn.

That almost as sad as asking if there is air in Australia, or someone from
the states asking "What state is Vermont in?" (my personal favorite, but I
live in Vermont so I'm biased.)


CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 16
From: Robert Menard panthersg@****.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:43:11 -0500
Aaron Binns wrote:

> Ok, maybe this comment was slightly uncalled for.. but when I last was in the
> states, I had heaps of americans come up to me and ask such utterly stupid things,
> like, do you have grass / trees / air (this guy was SERIOUS!) / kangaroos in your
> backyard / grubs for dinner / tv / rock music / etc etc etc.
>

Don't be so surprised Greywolf, it seems most americans are taught things that
have affected their little county or state, and that's about it. I've had Yanks as me
if there's snow up here all year long, and they live just a couple of hours from the
border.

Even I get questions like: Having a polar bear or beaver as a pet / If I canoe to
work / Do I live in an igloo all year long / Do we have cable / Do we have cars up
here...

I mean we're on the same bloody continent! What little goes through people who
ask such questions frighten me...

>
> What do you guys get taught about world geography - let alone common sense
> (referring to the air question).
>

Ah, that rare commodity called Common Sense, why they call it common I have no
idea, cause it sure is rare around here... :o)
--
Robert Ménard Panther Systems Group
Winnipeg, Manitoba \\|// Computer Service & Sales
ICQ UIN#: 2389556 (o o) Since 1996
/--------------------oOOO-(_)-OOOo---------------------------\
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| Home Page: http://members.home.net/panthersg/index.html |
| Angelfire panthersg@*********.com |
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Message no. 17
From: Robert Menard panthersg@****.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:06:07 -0500
Machine-gun Kelly wrote:

> If the corps are funding public schooling, they may or not make a big
> deal about geography and other cultures. Depends on if the knowledge
> will increase the productivity of their future employees.
>

Where the hell do you live that corporations fund PUBLIC schooling? The
government does a bad enough job of it.

>
> Well, in school nowadays, you usually get a semester class at
> high-school level or a year-long class at lower levels, called 'Social
> Studies'. Basic run-down of other countries and cultures, as well as
> Sociology. As I said, it's basic, and usually forgotten once horomones
> kick in. As to the air question, people in general aren't overly bright.
>

There's this certain course that most of us up here in Canada take called
Geography, does wonders for your world view. :o) Heck as early 6th grade Social
Studies I was doing projects about other countries like Panama, Egypt and such...
Then again the school I went to was highly academic.

Bronze - Elf Mage, ex-bouncer/bodyguard
Glen - Elf Decker/Mage
--
Robert Ménard Panther Systems Group
Winnipeg, Manitoba \\|// Computer Service & Sales
ICQ UIN#: 2389556 (o o) Since 1996
/--------------------oOOO-(_)-OOOo---------------------------\
/ @**** Network panthersg@****.com \
| Home Page: http://members.home.net/panthersg/index.html |
| Angelfire panthersg@*********.com |
\ Home Page: http://www.angelfire.com/mn/panthersg/index.html /
\------------------------=<*>=-------------------------------/
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Message no. 18
From: David Cordy DCordy@****.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:19:34 -0700
> Don't be so surprised Greywolf, it seems most americans are taught
> things that
> have affected their little county or state, and that's about it. I've had
> Yanks as me
> if there's snow up here all year long, and they live just a couple of
> hours from the
> border.
>
> Even I get questions like: Having a polar bear or beaver as a pet / If
> I canoe to
> work / Do I live in an igloo all year long / Do we have cable / Do we have
> cars up
> here...
>
Ok, this finally got to me. I actually know a lot about geography, and math
and a lot of different subjects. And I am from the United States. And,
yes, I was self taught, because the education system occasionally has to
dumb things down for some (coddling the weak minded, IMO).

I live in California, and I talk to people all over the world. And I get
asked all the time, "What's the weather like?", and people are surprised
when I say anything but sunny. They all think that we live on the beach,
have great tans, surf, and use either a palm trees or cactus for a Christmas
tree. Oh, and we either live in Los Angeles or San Francisco.

> I mean we're on the same bloody continent! What little goes through
> people who
> ask such questions frighten me...
>
Generalization and stereotypes can happen anywhere that people don't look
beyond their own county (yes county not countRy) borders. Or, let the only
way they get to know a place or people be decided by mass media (t.v.,
movies, etc.).


> Ah, that rare commodity called Common Sense, why they call it common I
> have no
> idea, cause it sure is rare around here... :o)
>
It comes (and goes) with common courtesy. Aye. ;-)
> --
> Robert Ménard
>
DavidC
Message no. 19
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 01:35:42 +0100
In article <005a01becc48$6b3b1ba0$8afc72c3@********.nl>, Dennis
Steinmeijer <dv8@********.nl> writes
>The Netherlands is so small and insignificant, and our language is more of a
>throat disease than it is a language, that we HAVE to know about other
>countries and other languages. I have the feeling Gurth is going to disagree
>when he reads this.

All I know is, many years ago in France, I was sixteen and chatting up a
charming and beautiful Dutch girl of fourteen. I spoke, then, English and
terrible French and that was it.

She spoke Dutch, fluent English, good French, usable German and usable
Spanish (these all confirmed by observation) and considered this linguistic
skill as nothing particularly special.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 20
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:20:33 EDT
In a message dated 7/12/1999 12:39:55 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
robert.watkins@******.com writes:

>
> My apologies if my comments above offend.

I snipped the reasonings you had why educational development may have changed
in the "States". And actually, I hadn't seriously put the thinking into the
terms you placed here. Very nice.

-K (BLAME CANADA!!!!! for their beady little eyes, their flapping heads so
full of lies!!! BLAME CANADA!!!!)
Message no. 21
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:20:19 -0400
> > If the corps are funding public schooling, they may or not make a big
> > deal about geography and other cultures. Depends on if the knowledge
> > will increase the productivity of their future employees.
> >
>
> Where the hell do you live that corporations fund PUBLIC
> schooling? The
> government does a bad enough job of it.

I recently was fixing some bugs in a system my client installed in Garfield
High School. This is a school in a not-to-good section of Los Angeles. If
you've seen the movie Stand And Deliver, that was Garfield.

Anyway, I remember seeing that their basketball courts were sponsored by
Sprite.

There is also a lot of sound in the air about corp sponsored schools. The
day may be coming, though for now, it is still controversial.
Message no. 22
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:50:23 +1000
Manx writes:
> At 12:36 12/07/99 +1000 Robert Watkins wrote
> >I don't know about kangaroos in your backyard, but my mother-in-law
> >regularly has kangaroos in the front yard, and my father once
> looked out his
> >bathroom window to see a water buffalo staring back at him. :)
>
> Yeah but you do live near Ipswich don't you? :)

My mother-in-law does... my parent's don't. Mind you, at the time my father
had the buffalo incident, we were in Nhulunbuy, a mining town on the coast
of the Gulf of Carpentaria, the only non-Aboriginal settlement in Arnhem
Land, and a place where buffalos regularly had to be chased off the school
oval before we could go out and play cricket. :) I remember going down to
the beach once and swimming no more than about twenty metres from a couple
of crocodiles sunbathing.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 23
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:53:11 +1000
Robert Menard writes:
> Where the hell do you live that corporations fund PUBLIC
> schooling? The
> government does a bad enough job of it.

If a corp is the major employer in an area, it could find it very beneficial
to fund public education to improve the quality of new employees. It is far
cheaper to teach a nine year old something than a thirty-year old who hasn't
been in education for fifteen to twenty years. I'm not thinking of 100%
funding, but certainly assistance. Obviously, this would only happen in
areas where the corp plans to stay for a long time.

In addition, corps might do it as a tax dodge.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 24
From: Rori Steel cullyn@*****.com.au
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:22:28 +0000 (GMT)
On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:53:11 +1000, you wrote:

>Robert Menard writes:
>> Where the hell do you live that corporations fund PUBLIC
>> schooling? The
>> government does a bad enough job of it.
>
>If a corp is the major employer in an area, it could find it very beneficial
>to fund public education to improve the quality of new employees. It is far
>cheaper to teach a nine year old something than a thirty-year old who hasn't
>been in education for fifteen to twenty years. I'm not thinking of 100%
>funding, but certainly assistance. Obviously, this would only happen in
>areas where the corp plans to stay for a long time.
>
>In addition, corps might do it as a tax dodge.

This is where you have the truth of it! And it is happening in
Australia already... the SR Timeline may not be totally correct time
wise, but its got a fair bit of the 'facts' right.

The Australian Government is currently trying to get some of their new
ideas through parliment. These ideas intail big corperations who want
tax let offs to 'sponsor' mental health places, dissabled kids and the
like. It really makes you shudder. If you read SR and think.. 'nah..
this will never happen' think again. Check this out.

It is already accepted that the government is loosing power compared
to the big corps. Now it is openly (is .au at least) asking for
assistance and giving the Corps what they want in return. They get
more power over the masses (sure it aint much atm) and the ability to
use the "You can overlook what we did *here* cant you.. we did give
2bil dollars this year to mentally handicapped kids.. we can very
easily pull our funding if you dont back off" ploy.

The governemts will slowly ask more and more from Corps, and the Corps
will use it to get more power with both the masses and the government.

First its mental health, then unemployed and pensions, then schools,
then roads, then elec and the whole thing goes the way of the
Corperation very easily.
</steps off soapbox>

Ok. This isnt written in concrete (or plascrete ;) but it could very
easily be a way our society does travel through the next few decades.
I am still at my wits end as to whether i should be happy, or waving a
flag. Ahh hell.. it'll probably happen slow enough that the average
pleb doesnt even notice it.

Will we follow the SR timeline in as far as non-magical events? What
parts do you think wont happen, and those that already have? Im
interested to see other points of view, on whether or not we are
heading for a Shadowrun type government/corp structure.

All comments can be directed to the ML, but we should try to keep
on-topic. WEll.. i did say try ;>

Cullyn
cullyn@*****.com.au
Message no. 25
From: lomion lomion@*********.escnd1.sdca.home.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:38:10 -0700
>She spoke Dutch, fluent English, good French, usable German and usable
>Spanish (these all confirmed by observation) and considered this linguistic
>skill as nothing particularly special.

Also there are a lot of countries in Europe, on North America there are
alot less, most ppl in the US will never go far enough to enter another
country, maybe even another county or state. The US is alot of land, so I
think the need for multiple languages is less in many places of the
US. Also a language is required by most schools in the US if you never use
it that's not a bad thing, imo.

--Larry
Message no. 26
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:57:52 +0200
> Machine-gun Kelly wrote:
>
> > If the corps are funding public schooling, they may or not make a big
> > deal about geography and other cultures. Depends on if the knowledge
> > will increase the productivity of their future employees.
> >
>
> Where the hell do you live that corporations fund PUBLIC schooling?
The
> government does a bad enough job of it.

In the Netherlands there are several ICT corps that fund public schooling. I
get about 750,- (that's about $300-$350 to go to school and finish my
bachlors in Corporate Computer Sciences.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 27
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:59:37 +0200
> I live in California, and I talk to people all over the world. And I get
> asked all the time, "What's the weather like?", and people are surprised
> when I say anything but sunny. They all think that we live on the beach,
> have great tans, surf, and use either a palm trees or cactus for a
Christmas
> tree. Oh, and we either live in Los Angeles or San Francisco.

Ah,...the Baywatch generation.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 28
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 01:08:34 +0200
> All I know is, many years ago in France, I was sixteen and chatting up a
> charming and beautiful Dutch girl of fourteen. I spoke, then, English and
> terrible French and that was it.
>
> She spoke Dutch, fluent English, good French, usable German and usable
> Spanish (these all confirmed by observation) and considered this
linguistic
> skill as nothing particularly special.

Yes, we all get english class till we drop dead from english overdose. Also
we have quite extensive courses in german, french and sometimes spanish.
Though the latter three are not mandatory.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 29
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:51:09 +0200
According to Dennis Steinmeijer, at 1:08 on 14 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> > She spoke Dutch, fluent English, good French, usable German and usable
> > Spanish (these all confirmed by observation) and considered this
> linguistic
> > skill as nothing particularly special.
>
> Yes, we all get english class till we drop dead from english overdose. Also
> we have quite extensive courses in german, french and sometimes spanish.
> Though the latter three are not mandatory.

Not sure about your area, but German and French were mandatory for the
first few years in the high school I went to (though they didn't teach
Spanish at all there). English was mandatory for all five years (six, in
my case ;) but still there were (too) many in my class who read and spoke
it very poorly.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Cooking with the devil, frying down in hell.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 30
From: David Hinkley dhinkley@***.org
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 03:05:14 -0700
From: "Robert Watkins" <robert.watkins@******.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Subject: RE: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date sent: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:38:44 +1000
Send reply to: shadowrn@*********.org

> I would. My reasoning goes thusly:
>
> IMHO, the major reason that the States seem so ignorant about other
> countries is that other countries don't really influence people. They have
> Canada to the north, but on the surface, it is basically the same culture
> (though there are lots and lots of differences underneath... I didn't mean
> to offend Canadians). To the south, they have Mexico, and the Latin American
> countries, but none of these seem to be on an equal footing with the States.
> The result is that the everyday American just plan doesn't have to deal with
> foreigners, or think about them.

Close but backwards, Its not that the everyday American doesn't have to deal
with foreigners. Its that he never has the chance to be one. Most Americans
can drive 300 miles and still be in the United States. That is not the case in
Europe. For a typical American to be a foreigner he has to travel a long
distance and usually can only stay for a short while. And while he is there
there are often enough English speaking people that he does not have to deal
with "foreigners".


>
> In SR, the US is history. The UCAS, while still probably being the strongest
> nation on Earth (though the Japanese Empire may have something to say about
> that) is vastly reduced in strength, and there are several other nations, of
> comparable strength, adjacent to their borders. This would prompt a greater
> awareness of their neighbours, and thus a stronger global awareness.

I might agree...IF...the new countries were different enough. But I don't think
so. As I tried to say above it is proximity to nations with different langages
and culture that causes the development of Global awareness in the common
man. OR a overseas tour with the military.





David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

===================================================Those who are too intelligent to engage
in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 31
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:46:51 +1000
David Hinkley writes:
> I might agree...IF...the new countries were different enough. But
> I don't think
> so. As I tried to say above it is proximity to nations with
> different langages
> and culture that causes the development of Global awareness in the common
> man. OR a overseas tour with the military.

Awareness has nothing to do with different cultures. Awareness has a lot to
do with how much you interact with the other country.

As an Australian, I have a high awareness of what life is like in the
States, the UK, and Canada, largely due to the interaction Australia has
with those countries. Once you start, there's a snowball-like effect: once
you get "aware" that other countries exist, you gain in global awareness.

IMHO, people in the States don't have much global awareness simply because
the interaction with other countries is so one-sided. Once you break the US
into multiple countries, which do have a greater interaction as equal (or
near equals), you'll get a greater global awareness happening all by itself.

Note that global awareness is a different thing to cultural awareness. IMHO,
the reason most people in the States aren't culturally aware is that America
seems to think it's an homogenous culture (or, more accurately, the dominant
culture is so superior). Cultural awareness only happens when you realise
that the culture you grew up in isn't the be-all and end-all of society.
Global awareness only happens when you realise that the country you grew up
in isn't all there is to life.

Actually taking individuals out of the country and shoving them overseas is
one way of causing that, but it won't raise the awareness of society as a
whole.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 32
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:41:45 EDT
In a message dated 7/14/1999 11:48:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
robert.watkins@******.com writes:

> IMHO, people in the States don't have much global awareness simply because
> the interaction with other countries is so one-sided. Once you break the US
> into multiple countries, which do have a greater interaction as equal (or
> near equals), you'll get a greater global awareness happening all by
itself.
>
> Note that global awareness is a different thing to cultural awareness.
IMHO,
> the reason most people in the States aren't culturally aware is that
America
> seems to think it's an homogenous culture (or, more accurately, the
dominant
> culture is so superior). Cultural awareness only happens when you realise
> that the culture you grew up in isn't the be-all and end-all of society.
> Global awareness only happens when you realise that the country you grew up
> in isn't all there is to life.

After reading statements like these, I am now very aware of topics like these
are treated as "DO NOT START". Please, before someone else gets all uppity,
lets' drop this one, can we all???

-K (who is painfully aware of the cultural diversity/awareness of both his
own nation, and many of the supposed "better at it" nations too)
Message no. 33
From: Robert Menard panthersg@****.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:24:15 -0500
Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

>
> -K (BLAME CANADA!!!!! for their beady little eyes, their flapping heads so
> full of lies!!! BLAME CANADA!!!!)

Dems fighter words chummer!

--
Bronze Herm. Mage/Ex Bodyguard-Bouncer
Message no. 34
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:07:20 EDT
In a message dated 7/16/1999 8:26:38 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
panthersg@****.com writes:

> > -K (BLAME CANADA!!!!! for their beady little eyes, their flapping heads
> so
> > full of lies!!! BLAME CANADA!!!!)
>
> Dems fighter words chummer!

COME ON!!! PUD 'EM UP!!! ;-P

-K
Message no. 35
From: Michael & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@*****.msn.com
Subject: the value of education (was: Thoughts: Sourcebook Ideas)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:25:07 -0400
>> -K (BLAME CANADA!!!!! for their beady little eyes, their flapping heads
so
>> full of lies!!! BLAME CANADA!!!!)
>
>Dems fighter words chummer!
>
>--
>Bronze Herm. Mage/Ex Bodyguard-Bouncer


So what did you think of "South Park: The Movie"?

Smilin' Jack

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