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Message no. 1
From: "Frank Pelletier (Trinity)" <fpelletier@******.USHERB.CA>
Subject: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:55:27 -0500
See what you get when you start speculating? Half-truths and lies.

Fact 1: Microsoft did NOT buy FASA, they bought FASA Interactive, which was
owned in part by FASA. So MS bought FI from FASA, not the other way around,
or any other messed-up transaction you might come up with.

Fact 2: MS acquired the "ELECTRONIC" rights to FASA's franchise. This means
that MS can develop electronic games around FASA's intellectual properties,
like Battletech, Shadowrun and Earthdawn. This does not mean that MS can
put an axe in SR, or shut it down, or anything. Y'all pencil pushers and
dice chuckers have nothing to worry about.

Although I don't know if the buyout specified any future royalties on
electronic titles to FASA, or if it's an outright buyout of the electronic
licenses.

Stop panicking. Stop talking about how bad SR will now be, or how we'll get
Shadowrun 98 Beta or what not. This move means NOTHING to tabletop
roleplayers, except more money for FASA, and maybe support for games that
were dead, like Earthdawn and SRCCG. You should be happy.

BTW: Shadowrun: Assassin is probably delayed or dead, since Chris Robert's
development house has a similar cyber-punkish title in the works, and
they're owned my MS.

Trinity
---------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
fpelletier@******.usherb.ca

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" -M. Gandhi

Trinity on the Undernet and EFNet
Message no. 2
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:41:47 -0500
>Fact 2: MS acquired the "ELECTRONIC" rights to FASA's franchise. This means
>that MS can develop electronic games around FASA's intellectual properties,
>like Battletech, Shadowrun and Earthdawn.

This would also mean that should FASA ever want to produce a CD-ROM
containing their books (such as the Earthdawn CD they built a while ago),
they would need permission from M$ to do so.

(Although, they might be able to pull some kind of precedent law from the
legal morass surrounding the computer and board games called "Civilization".
I wouldn't advise it, though.)

Wordman
Message no. 3
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:50:56 +1000
Wordman writes:
> >Fact 2: MS acquired the "ELECTRONIC" rights to FASA's franchise.
> This means
> >that MS can develop electronic games around FASA's intellectual
> properties,
> >like Battletech, Shadowrun and Earthdawn.
>
> This would also mean that should FASA ever want to produce a CD-ROM
> containing their books (such as the Earthdawn CD they built a while ago),
> they would need permission from M$ to do so.
>
> (Although, they might be able to pull some kind of precedent law from the
> legal morass surrounding the computer and board games called
> "Civilization".
> I wouldn't advise it, though.)

I doubt that's the case, Wordman... I'm sure FASA retained the rights to
produce any software themselves. Furthermore, a CD-ROM containing textual
data would be in the same category as a book... it's publishing, regardless
of the media format, and so FASA could put out a CD-ROM.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 4
From: Tim Burke <timburke@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:55:51 +1000
At 23:41 7/01/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Fact 2: MS acquired the "ELECTRONIC" rights to FASA's franchise. This
means
>>that MS can develop electronic games around FASA's intellectual properties,
>>like Battletech, Shadowrun and Earthdawn.
>
>This would also mean that should FASA ever want to produce a CD-ROM
>containing their books (such as the Earthdawn CD they built a while ago),
>they would need permission from M$ to do so.
>
>(Although, they might be able to pull some kind of precedent law from the
>legal morass surrounding the computer and board games called "Civilization".
>I wouldn't advise it, though.)
>
>Wordman
>

Well not entirely correct.

FASA still maintains the publishing rights to the RPG's
and would in NO way have to consult Microsoft if they
wanted to develop the material that they already have
the rights to publish. The RPG is a totally different
ballgame to anything that FASA Interactive (a totally
seperate company) had the rights to. FASA interactive
is the development house for Computer Games, not
table top role playing games.

Tim Burke
Message no. 5
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:20:30 -0600
On Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:55:27 -0500 "Frank Pelletier (Trinity)"
<fpelletier@******.USHERB.CA> writes:
<SNIP>
>BTW: Shadowrun: Assassin is probably delayed or dead, since Chris
Robert's
>development house has a similar cyber-punkish title in the works, and
>they're owned my MS.

Here's an idea: Since it is possible that Assassin will be cancelled for
the above game, is there any info on the above game?

>Trinity
>---------------------------------------------
>Frank Pelletier
>fpelletier@******.usherb.ca

Why does that name sound familiar? Actually, I originally misread it
Peltier ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 6
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:56:14 -0600
On Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:50:56 +1000 Robert Watkins
<robert.watkins@******.COM> writes:
>Wordman writes:
>> >Fact 2: MS acquired the "ELECTRONIC" rights to FASA's franchise.
>> This means
>> >that MS can develop electronic games around FASA's intellectual
>> properties,
>> >like Battletech, Shadowrun and Earthdawn.

>> This would also mean that should FASA ever want to produce a CD-ROM
>> containing their books (such as the Earthdawn CD they built a while
ago),
>> they would need permission from M$ to do so.
<SNIP>

>I doubt that's the case, Wordman... I'm sure FASA retained the rights to
>produce any software themselves. Furthermore, a CD-ROM containing
textual
>data would be in the same category as a book... it's publishing,
regardless
>of the media format, and so FASA could put out a CD-ROM.

And if it includes multimedia elemnts (ie, animation, sound, etc)? Could
FASA do that without MS' consent?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 7
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:44:54 -0500
I've snipped everything, because it's all ridiculous. Okay, Licenses 101:

You do not buy or sell licenses to material based on medium. You license
based on type of product. Type of product does NOT mean "all software."
It means "computer games based on copyrighted/trademarked elements unique
to my intellectual property." I know this very well, because I have a
friend in the RPG industry who invented his own fantasy world, and he was
very scrupulous in gaining control over all the intellectual property
rights of all the material contributed by his players over the years (me
included). He licensed the RPG rights to one company, and the computer
game rights to another, and retains the rights to things like fiction and
merchandising.

So, no, software designed and used as an aid to the Shadowrun RPG is *NOT*
controlled by MS. MS only controls the license to computer games made
using unique elements of the SR intellectual property. MS has NO SAY
WHATSOEVER in how the SR RPG is developed, including any software products
produced as aids for that game. This would include, but is not limited to,
CharGen programs, player aids, GM aids, dice-rolling programs, and so forth.

And before anybody else types anything ill-considered, I want to hear how
many licensing deals they've been exposed to, and how they were involved.
Preceding your remarks with "I have no experience in this industry or this
type of deal and know nothing of the particulars involved" will enable
folks to give your remarks the proper weight.



--
Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
Marietta, GA | hope for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 8
From: Kama <kama@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:48:04 -0500
On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Starjammer wrote:

> I've snipped everything, because it's all ridiculous. Okay, Licenses 101:
>
> You do not buy or sell licenses to material based on medium. You license
> based on type of product. Type of product does NOT mean "all software."
> It means "computer games based on copyrighted/trademarked elements unique
> to my intellectual property." I know this very well, because I have a
> friend in the RPG industry who invented his own fantasy world, and he was
> very scrupulous in gaining control over all the intellectual property
> rights of all the material contributed by his players over the years (me
> included). He licensed the RPG rights to one company, and the computer
> game rights to another, and retains the rights to things like fiction and
> merchandising.
>
> So, no, software designed and used as an aid to the Shadowrun RPG is *NOT*
> controlled by MS. MS only controls the license to computer games made
> using unique elements of the SR intellectual property. MS has NO SAY
> WHATSOEVER in how the SR RPG is developed, including any software products
> produced as aids for that game. This would include, but is not limited to,
> CharGen programs, player aids, GM aids, dice-rolling programs, and so forth.
>
> And before anybody else types anything ill-considered, I want to hear how
> many licensing deals they've been exposed to, and how they were involved.
> Preceding your remarks with "I have no experience in this industry or this
> type of deal and know nothing of the particulars involved" will enable
> folks to give your remarks the proper weight.
>

The fear being expressed by the people on this list is not that
ridiculous. All we have to go on is a single sentance in a press release.
We have not seen any licensing agreements and have no idea as to what
rights may or may not have been included in the deal. Legal rule number
one: read the fine print. We haven't seen the fine print and have no way
of finding out what is says. As such, working on the assumption that it
might be bad for us is not a silly plan.

Personally, I am planning on making sure that my husband and I acquire all
of the free and shareware stuff for Shadowrun and Earthdawn that we have
meant to get "someday" the next few weeks, so that if MS decides that
these things interfere with the rights granted them under the sales
agreement we will already have our copies.

To summerize MS has good lawyers. It is amazing how many loops you can put
in a deal of this size. I would not be at all surprised if FASA discovers
that they have given up some rights that did not realize they were giving
up, or that MS has more control over some of the product lines than FASA
thought.

Admitedly FASA had lawyers too. As such I am not worried about the paper
and tabletop games. However, we don't know where the line was drawn
when it comes to the electronic products related to the paper games
because we haven't read the licensing agreement. As such, I am not as
confidant that nothing will change in that area.

Kama (oh - yes, I am going to claim a reasonable amount of expertise in
this area, even if I haven't specialized in licenses and intellectual
property law in my practice)
Message no. 9
From: A Halliwell <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:57:28 +0000
And verily, did Wordman hastily scribble thusly...
|
|>Fact 2: MS acquired the "ELECTRONIC" rights to FASA's franchise. This
means
|>that MS can develop electronic games around FASA's intellectual properties,
|>like Battletech, Shadowrun and Earthdawn.
|
|This would also mean that should FASA ever want to produce a CD-ROM
|containing their books (such as the Earthdawn CD they built a while ago),
|they would need permission from M$ to do so.

That depends how far those "electronic" rights go.
If it's for games and simulations, then FASA are OK.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 10
From: Matthew Diederich <matthew@****.BAKA.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:56:09 -0500
Okay. This has gone on for a full twenty four hours, so I figured I'd best
throw my opinion into the mix:

Businesses make deals like this because each side is individually
convinced that they are secretly sticking it to the other company. For
example, FASA did this probably because they figured they'd be able to
promote the line better, while ostensibly giving MS a chunk of their
structure.

Whereas MS probably did it because Mechwarrior is a hot, hot game, and
they figured they could get a piece of the action. I am -sure- each one of
them left the bargaining table convinced they had one-upped the other.

Yes, intellectual property law is a complex tangle to un-ravel. Hell, I
was going to specialize in it. But then I never got 'round to law school,
but that's another story...

The important point is this. For now, no one knows what's going to happen.
A few press releases is all anyone has. It'll take months before anyone
knows what exactly this deal entails for us gamers. And I agree with Kama,
when it comes to corporate America, I subscribe to the 'believe in worst
case scenario' logic. I'm going to assume MS will grab any and all power
they can in terms of publication, and then if they -don't-, I'll be
pleasantly surprised.

Like my brother in law once told me, "Matt, you plan for the worst, and
work from there."

Matt.
Message no. 11
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:01:32 -0500
At 08:48 AM 1/8/99 -0500, Kama wrote:
>
>The fear being expressed by the people on this list is not that
>ridiculous. All we have to go on is a single sentance in a press release.
>We have not seen any licensing agreements and have no idea as to what
>rights may or may not have been included in the deal. Legal rule number
>one: read the fine print. We haven't seen the fine print and have no way
>of finding out what is says. As such, working on the assumption that it
>might be bad for us is not a silly plan.
>
>Personally, I am planning on making sure that my husband and I acquire all
>of the free and shareware stuff for Shadowrun and Earthdawn that we have
>meant to get "someday" the next few weeks, so that if MS decides that
>these things interfere with the rights granted them under the sales
>agreement we will already have our copies.

Well, at least the f-word has finally come out: fear. Look, licensing
deals have been a staple of this industry, and the publishing world in
general, for AGES, long before computer games came along. It is not
reasonable to assume, coming out of the gate, that FASA has somehow sold
something they did not intend to down the river through some act of massive
incompetence.

I royally dislike MS. I dislike their quality standards and their business
practices and their corporate mindset. But all the same I am not going to
allow myself to have some Bill Gates-boogeyman-induced panic attack. The
paper RPG industry is insignificant in scope or scale compared to the
computer game industry. Any money which MS might garner in taking an
action like you describe wouldn't cover the retainer they pay their
lawyers, and assuming that the people working for FASA have even basic
competence in their field and the brains God gave an artichoke there
wouldn't be an avenue to pursue along those lines anyway.

Occam's Razor is a logical principle which states that of among a group of
equally possible explanations, the simplest one is most likely to be true.
Apply Occam's Razor here. FI is a company with one hot property and few
other distinguishing qualities. MS has a pattern of acquiring companies
with this profile. Likely explanation: MS wanted what FI has, and bought
the company. FASA found it advantageous to allow them to do so. MS got
what it wanted, the BT computer game license, and will probably for the
most part ignore the rest of the operation. If one of the other licenses
makes some money for them, fine. If not, fine. What FASA does is likely
of no concern whatsoever to anybody except RPG industry insiders and we the
fans. And even if it were, FASA has probably put more than a little
thought over the past however-many-months this deal has been in the works
into making sure that their interests are clearly defined and protected.

>To summerize MS has good lawyers. It is amazing how many loops you can put
>in a deal of this size. I would not be at all surprised if FASA discovers
>that they have given up some rights that did not realize they were giving
>up, or that MS has more control over some of the product lines than FASA
>thought.
>
>Admitedly FASA had lawyers too. As such I am not worried about the paper
>and tabletop games. However, we don't know where the line was drawn
>when it comes to the electronic products related to the paper games
>because we haven't read the licensing agreement. As such, I am not as
>confidant that nothing will change in that area.

Let's boil it down. Just call the FASA folks a bunch of fools and be done
with it. I mean, that essentially is what you're implying may have
happened. Must have happened for your scenario to work. Over months of
putting this deal together, FASA, which has been handling the BT license
for years before MS came along, somehow went and sold a license to MS
without having a full and binding defintion over exactly what that
licensing agreement would entail, and thereby gave away something they
didn't intend to. A licensing deal that was refined over a couple of years
of business between FASA and FI, I might add.

>Kama (oh - yes, I am going to claim a reasonable amount of expertise in
>this area, even if I haven't specialized in licenses and intellectual
>property law in my practice)

Okay, you're a lawyer. Now let me ask you a question. Do you routinely
make mistakes like the one you're describing? Allow your client to sign
off on something without a thorough understanding of how it's going to
work, carved in legal stone, in whatever your area of specialization is?
Probably not, because the proper practice of law is a meticulous and
detailed process. Why do you assume that the FASA folks and their lawyers
aren't at least this good? Licensing deals are not an ambiguous area of
law, that I'm particularly aware of, and the RPG industry in general and
FASA in particular have been handling them for years. They probably know
what they're about.

Fear and spinning doomsday scenarios out of whole cloth are not reasonable
reactions. A reasonable reaction is to assume that everybody did their
jobs right and everybody got what they wanted. MS will now make computer
games based on FASA RPGs (most likely Battletech), period, and profit
thereby. FASA will get money for this, and profit thereby, and retains the
rights to anything they didn't specificly set out to license.

When something happens to worry about, THEN I'll worry. For now, I'll
simply bemoan the fact that FASA has made a business decision that will
profit a company I don't like, and hope that FASA's side of the deal helps
them more.


--
Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
Marietta, GA | hope for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 12
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:32:46 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Matthew Diederich wrote:
/
/ Okay. This has gone on for a full twenty four hours, so I figured I'd best
/ throw my opinion into the mix:
/
/ Businesses make deals like this because each side is individually
/ convinced that they are secretly sticking it to the other company. For
/ example, FASA did this probably because they figured they'd be able to
/ promote the line better, while ostensibly giving MS a chunk of their
/ structure.

I think the reasons are far less insidious. FASA sold FI to make
money. MS bought FI because they wanted it and thought it was a good
deal (the price was right and the future possiblities looked good).

My guess is that FASA sold FI to finance their purchase of Ral Partha.
MS probably just wanted the Mechwarrior line and had the money to buy
it (or figures they will get the money when they sell a subsidiary that
they're planning on getting rid of). My company has been sold three
times during my tenure, so I do have some experience with this :)

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 13
From: Kama <kama@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:39:02 -0500
On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Starjammer wrote:

>
> Well, at least the f-word has finally come out: fear. Look, licensing
> deals have been a staple of this industry, and the publishing world in
> general, for AGES, long before computer games came along. It is not
> reasonable to assume, coming out of the gate, that FASA has somehow sold
> something they did not intend to down the river through some act of massive
> incompetence.
>
> I royally dislike MS. I dislike their quality standards and their business
> practices and their corporate mindset. But all the same I am not going to
> allow myself to have some Bill Gates-boogeyman-induced panic attack. The
> paper RPG industry is insignificant in scope or scale compared to the
> computer game industry. Any money which MS might garner in taking an
> action like you describe wouldn't cover the retainer they pay their
> lawyers, and assuming that the people working for FASA have even basic
> competence in their field and the brains God gave an artichoke there
> wouldn't be an avenue to pursue along those lines anyway.
>
> Occam's Razor is a logical principle which states that of among a group of
> equally possible explanations, the simplest one is most likely to be true.
> Apply Occam's Razor here. FI is a company with one hot property and few
> other distinguishing qualities. MS has a pattern of acquiring companies
> with this profile. Likely explanation: MS wanted what FI has, and bought
> the company. FASA found it advantageous to allow them to do so. MS got
> what it wanted, the BT computer game license, and will probably for the
> most part ignore the rest of the operation. If one of the other licenses
> makes some money for them, fine. If not, fine. What FASA does is likely
> of no concern whatsoever to anybody except RPG industry insiders and we the
> fans. And even if it were, FASA has probably put more than a little
> thought over the past however-many-months this deal has been in the works
> into making sure that their interests are clearly defined and protected.
>
> >To summerize MS has good lawyers. It is amazing how many loops you can put
> >in a deal of this size. I would not be at all surprised if FASA discovers
> >that they have given up some rights that did not realize they were giving
> >up, or that MS has more control over some of the product lines than FASA
> >thought.
> >
> >Admitedly FASA had lawyers too. As such I am not worried about the paper
> >and tabletop games. However, we don't know where the line was drawn
> >when it comes to the electronic products related to the paper games
> >because we haven't read the licensing agreement. As such, I am not as
> >confidant that nothing will change in that area.
>
> Let's boil it down. Just call the FASA folks a bunch of fools and be done
> with it. I mean, that essentially is what you're implying may have
> happened. Must have happened for your scenario to work. Over months of
> putting this deal together, FASA, which has been handling the BT license
> for years before MS came along, somehow went and sold a license to MS
> without having a full and binding defintion over exactly what that
> licensing agreement would entail, and thereby gave away something they
> didn't intend to. A licensing deal that was refined over a couple of years
> of business between FASA and FI, I might add.
>
> >Kama (oh - yes, I am going to claim a reasonable amount of expertise in
> >this area, even if I haven't specialized in licenses and intellectual
> >property law in my practice)
>
> Okay, you're a lawyer. Now let me ask you a question. Do you routinely
> make mistakes like the one you're describing? Allow your client to sign
> off on something without a thorough understanding of how it's going to
> work, carved in legal stone, in whatever your area of specialization is?
> Probably not, because the proper practice of law is a meticulous and
> detailed process. Why do you assume that the FASA folks and their lawyers
> aren't at least this good? Licensing deals are not an ambiguous area of
> law, that I'm particularly aware of, and the RPG industry in general and
> FASA in particular have been handling them for years. They probably know
> what they're about.
>
> Fear and spinning doomsday scenarios out of whole cloth are not reasonable
> reactions. A reasonable reaction is to assume that everybody did their
> jobs right and everybody got what they wanted. MS will now make computer
> games based on FASA RPGs (most likely Battletech), period, and profit
> thereby. FASA will get money for this, and profit thereby, and retains the
> rights to anything they didn't specificly set out to license.
>
> When something happens to worry about, THEN I'll worry. For now, I'll
> simply bemoan the fact that FASA has made a business decision that will
> profit a company I don't like, and hope that FASA's side of the deal helps
> them more.
>

Yes, I am a lawyer. I wrote tax law for the State of Florida. Yes, I have
made mistakes. (If you can say that you never have made one in your line
of work, please 'fess up so that we can form the line to worship you.) I
have seen my words twisted by other lawyers to allow them to claim
exemptions for transactions that were never intended to be exempt. I have
seen a court case lost because the statute taxes "capitalization fees" and
the company is imposing a "capitolization charge". I agree that FASA
undoubtably believes that the have successfully covered every possible
interpretation of the agreement and are in absolutely no danger of losing
any control over their intellectual property they did not intend to sell.

However, you can never predict what the other guy is reading into your
words. It would not be difficult for MS to claim that their (hypothetical)
rights to produce all electronic and software packages based upon the
worlds created by FASA includes a right to sue people who produce
character generation programs for violating their license. And there is
nothing to say that a judge might not agree with MS even if FASA didn't
intend for the license to cover such things. Moreover, there is no reason
such an allegation would even get to court.

I may have a slight advantage by being a lawyer, but I sure as heck could
not stand up to MS coming after me for stuff my husband and I have on our
webpage. The threat would be enough to get me to remove such material from
our website. If MS did send you a warning letter stating that they believe
material on your webpage violates thier license and that they want it
removed, what would you do? You could try to fight it on your own, but MS
has the money to get a injunction against you fiarly quickly and you won't
have the resources to fight them. You could ask FASA for help, however,
unless FASA has a altrusitic intrest in helping you out, or is willing to
fight MS on your behalf as a test case to establish the boundries of the
license granted, your out of luck there. Your third alternative is to
quietly comply. Which is the action I would recommend.

MS has a habit of being a bit Draconian. FASA has always been really cool
about allowing us to use copyrighted material as long as the proper credit
is given. (By the way - I never claimed that FASA or its lawyers are fools
- I just said that I have learned not to be too confidant that any legal
document says what I believe it says, until a judge has sided with me and
all appeals have been exhausted.) To assume that MS's acquistion of FASA
interactive (which probably includes the "MechWarrior" and
"MechCommander"
trademarks) will have not change any web pages or other web materials is a
bit short sighted.

Finally, you seemed to make a big deal about my use of the word fear. Fear
is not a negative thing nor is expressing fear and taking precuations a
bad idea. After all, it is the fear of getting run over that
makes me look both ways before I cross the street. Moreover, all Lawyers
really do is protect people from the fear the others will take advantage
of them. If fear that MS and/or FASA would not eventually try to take
advantage of one another was not a factor, they could have just shook
hands on the whole deal.



Kama
Message no. 14
From: Reika <ladyreika@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:42:57 -0500
I will be the first to admit that I know nothing about licensing
agreements or anything like that. However, I like to think I have
a small amount of common sense. Out idle curiousity, why would a
company like Microsoft, who all know and loathe as to be a
mega-computer software corp, want to buy a company like FASA, who
produces table-top roleplaying games? Paper based role-playing
games. I don't think Microsloth really gives a d*mn about what
FASA does with any of their game universes. I also think that as
long as the stuff put out on the web doesn't infringe on M$
profits, they won't give a d*mn.
Also, how do we know that FASA hasn't put anything in to protect
those rights also? If I understand correctly several people on
this list are on good terms with those in control of SR
development, and I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to
protect their fans interest.
Well 'nough babling on my part about something I know nothing
of, and there's nothing we can do about what FASA did and didn't
sign away with this deal.

Hmm how about we turn this dicussion back to SR itself, and
discuss oh say, which is better, a Street Sammy or a PhysMage? :)

<prepares to duck for cover for any THWAPS coming her way. *g*>

Reika
Message no. 15
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:45:02 -0800
> Hmm how about we turn this dicussion back to SR itself, and
> discuss oh say, which is better, a Street Sammy or a PhysMage? :)
>
I prefer a little of both myself. An initiate PhysMage with cyberware. assuming you
create the character and took the time to get to a decent level of initiation, it could be
pretty darn kick ass.

-Toffer
Message no. 16
From: David Lightfinger <lightfinger@****.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:39:19 -0600
Starjammer wrote:
>

> And before anybody else types anything ill-considered, I want to hear how
> many licensing deals they've been exposed to, and how they were involved.
> Preceding your remarks with "I have no experience in this industry or this
> type of deal and know nothing of the particulars involved" will enable
> folks to give your remarks the proper weight.

Thank you for the full explaination.

Myself, I've had 1 1/2 years of Business Law, worked as a freelancer in
the RPG industry for Hero Games and ICE, plus have been involved on the
other end, in trying to gain permission to use a product via licensing.
I also have a lot of friends in both industries, and know how computer
game licensing works. Your descriptions are completely accurate, and
will hopefully help end the silly panic.

--David
Message no. 17
From: Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:58:47 -0600
Davidson, Chris wrote:

> > Hmm how about we turn this dicussion back to SR itself, and
> > discuss oh say, which is better, a Street Sammy or a PhysMage? :)
> >
> I prefer a little of both myself. An initiate PhysMage with cyberware. assuming you
create the character and took the time to get to a decent level of initiation, it could be
pretty darn kick ass.

But then we would have to get into the discussion of What=Munchkin. :)No it all depends
on the type of charachter that you want to play. My current character is a PhysAd.
Quite a nice little dude
at that. Goin on the Blade Theme just I am not part Vamp as far as I know.

>
>
> -Toffer

Grimlakin
Message no. 18
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:04:25 -0800
> at that. Goin on the Blade Theme just I am not part Vamp as far as I know.
>
Maybe that could be his quest. ;)

-Toffer
Message no. 19
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:54:55 -0600
On Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:44:54 -0500 Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
writes:
>I've snipped everything, because it's all ridiculous. Okay, Licenses
>101:
<SNIP>
>So, no, software designed and used as an aid to the Shadowrun RPG is
*NOT*
>controlled by MS. MS only controls the license to computer games made
>using unique elements of the SR intellectual property. MS has NO SAY
>WHATSOEVER in how the SR RPG is developed, including any software
products
>produced as aids for that game. This would include, but is not limited
to,
>CharGen programs, player aids, GM aids, dice-rolling programs, and so
forth.

Okay, how about the person who made a doom-style matrix simulator?
Wouldn't that fall under MS' new license?

>And before anybody else types anything ill-considered, I want to hear
how
>many licensing deals they've been exposed to, and how they were
involved.
>Preceding your remarks with "I have no experience in this industry or
this
>type of deal and know nothing of the particulars involved" will enable
>folks to give your remarks the proper weight.

Hey! I just asked questions so that more informed listmembers would
answer them. There's no need to bite my (or anybody else's) head off for
it ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 20
From: Adam J <adamj@*********.HTML.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 17:47:44 -0700
At 13:54 1/8/99 -0600, D. Ghost wrote:

>Okay, how about the person who made a doom-style matrix simulator?
>Wouldn't that fall under MS' new license?

It -might-, because it could be judged as an actual computer game. I'm not
worried at all about Pocket Secretary '98, although it does mean I'll have
to track down a new FASA person to check with about legality, since the
person I was talking to was from FIT. Guess it's time to nag Randall
again.. :-)

-Adam
--
< http://shadowrun.html.com/tss / adamj@*********.html.com >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / ICQ# 2350330 >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< ShadowFAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/shadowfaq >
< "Welcome to the most exciting action adventure series on >
< television!" -- Michael Cole, introducing the WWF's RAW is WAR >
Message no. 21
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:00:54 EST
In a message dated 1/8/99 10:02:18 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
starjammer@**********.COM writes:

>
> When something happens to worry about, THEN I'll worry. For now, I'll
> simply bemoan the fact that FASA has made a business decision that will
> profit a company I don't like, and hope that FASA's side of the deal helps
> them more.

<K raises a glass in toast to this, the best phrasing he's seen so far
(salud!)>
Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:43:46 +0100
According to Davidson, Chris, at 10:45 on 8 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> I prefer a little of both myself. An initiate PhysMage with cyberware.
> assuming you create the character and took the time to get to a decent
> level of initiation, it could be pretty darn kick ass.

If you like to live with all the geasa this will give you, sure. For every
two Magic points lost from your non-physad side you need to get a geas...
so, three points in physad powers, a few initiations, and say 2 Essence
worth of cyberware gives you two geasa. Hmm...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Take advantage. Or so it seems.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 23
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:06:19 -0500
On 8 Jan 99, at 21:00, K in the Shadows wrote:

> > When something happens to worry about, THEN I'll worry. For now, I'll
> > simply bemoan the fact that FASA has made a business decision that will
> > profit a company I don't like, and hope that FASA's side of the deal
> > helps them more.
>
> <K raises a glass in toast to this, the best phrasing he's seen so far
> (salud!)>

I would have to agree. There was no "panic" on this end. The
overeaction occured from the other side, IMHO (just look at the
subject...)

--



=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 24
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:17:07 EST
In a message dated 1/9/99 5:47:14 AM US Eastern Standard Time, gurth@******.NL
writes:

> > I prefer a little of both myself. An initiate PhysMage with cyberware.
> > assuming you create the character and took the time to get to a decent
> > level of initiation, it could be pretty darn kick ass.
>
> If you like to live with all the geasa this will give you, sure. For every
> two Magic points lost from your non-physad side you need to get a geas...
> so, three points in physad powers, a few initiations, and say 2 Essence
> worth of cyberware gives you two geasa. Hmm...

Wait a second here. Gurth, I am not entirely certain where you are getting
this two geasa thing at. You description would be only one geasa for a
"Physical Magician" following the basic rules as they are outlined in the
Awakenings. The "Magic Loss" that counts is only due to cyberware. The
points of magic that are "allocated" for the Physical Adept are NOT part of
the consideration to "overall magic loss".

-K
Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:35:00 +0100
According to K in the Shadows, at 17:17 on 9 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> Wait a second here. Gurth, I am not entirely certain where you are getting
> this two geasa thing at. You description would be only one geasa for a
> "Physical Magician" following the basic rules as they are outlined in the
> Awakenings. The "Magic Loss" that counts is only due to cyberware. The
> points of magic that are "allocated" for the Physical Adept are NOT part of
> the consideration to "overall magic loss".

Awakenings, page 119: "physical magicians must submit to a geas on their
use of magical skills for every 2 points of Magic Attribute lost as
normal, and for every 2 points allocated to physical adept powers at
character creation." The way I read it, if you take 2 Magic points' worth
of adept powers, and lose 2 Essence, you end up with two geasa.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kleiduivenmelker
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 26
From: Jester <jester@**********.NL>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:41:38 +0100
At 11:35, 10 Jan 99, Jester was told by Gurth:

> Gurth@******.nl -
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> Kleiduivenmelker
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Nice .sig Gurth, but what's the story behind it?

Also, I'm sure that about 99% of the people on this list won't know
what this word means:)


--
When you're frozen solid, you really don't think much about sex anymore.
--Buck Bundy--
Jester
<jester@**********.nl>

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GS d s: a22? c- U? P? L? E? W N- o? K- w+ O--- M? V? PS PE-
Y PGP- t+ 5+++ X+ R+>++ tv++ b+++ DI? D- G e>+ h! r++ y+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 27
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:48:06 EST
In a message dated 1/10/99 5:37:06 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.NL writes:

>
> Awakenings, page 119: "physical magicians must submit to a geas on their
> use of magical skills for every 2 points of Magic Attribute lost as
> normal, and for every 2 points allocated to physical adept powers at
> character creation." The way I read it, if you take 2 Magic points' worth
> of adept powers, and lose 2 Essence, you end up with two geasa.
>
Ah, okay, I had skipped over that part when I read your posting the first time
and formed some kind of psychotic little mental run-(al)on(g) sentence. I'm
better now, I promise ;-)

-K (...no...no...kep Doc' and his straight jackets back..BACK!!! ... :P )
Message no. 28
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:49:14 EST
In a message dated 1/10/99 6:49:02 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
jester@**********.NL writes:

> > Kleiduivenmelker
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Nice .sig Gurth, but what's the story behind it?
> Also, I'm sure that about 99% of the people on this list won't know
> what this word means:)

Okay, I'll bite .. exactly what *does* it mean???

-K (who is starting to suffer from "Cabin Fever" again ...)
Message no. 29
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:24:41 -0600
On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:35:00 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
<SNIP>
>Awakenings, page 119: "physical magicians must submit to a geas on their
>use of magical skills for every 2 points of Magic Attribute lost as
>normal, and for every 2 points allocated to physical adept powers at
>character creation." The way I read it, if you take 2 Magic points'
worth
>of adept powers, and lose 2 Essence, you end up with two geasa.

How about this bit of rules lawyering :)... If a PhysMage puts 1 point of
magic in Physical Adept abilities and loses 1 point of magic from cyber,
does the PhysMage get a Geas? If you note the wording, the two appear to
be tabulated seperately... However, I think the spirit of the rules was
that the above PhysMage would recieve one geas (or not be able to
intiate).

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 30
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:05:51 EST
In a message dated 1/10/99 11:41:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, dghost@****.COM
writes:

> How about this bit of rules lawyering :)... If a PhysMage puts 1 point of
> magic in Physical Adept abilities and loses 1 point of magic from cyber,
> does the PhysMage get a Geas? If you note the wording, the two appear to
> be tabulated seperately... However, I think the spirit of the rules was
> that the above PhysMage would recieve one geas (or not be able to
> intiate).
maybe at character generation (if the cyber as bought at gen I mean) then ou
could, but otherwise the adept powers do not gain geasa after gen anyway.
From what I have heard of MitS (not much recently sicne Steve has not been
in a chat for a little while) both Physmages and geasa will be changing, so it
is imposible to predict how geasa will work (not sure if Steve has even
finished them)
Wait and see I say.
Message no. 31
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:35:46 +1000
> Wait a second here. Gurth, I am not entirely certain where you are
> getting this two geasa thing at. You description would be only one
> geasa for a "Physical Magician" following the basic rules as they are
> outlined in the Awakenings. The "Magic Loss" that counts is only due
> to cyberware. The points of magic that are "allocated" for the
> Physical Adept are NOT part of the consideration to "overall magic
> loss".
>
> -K
>
On the contrary, K...

ANY loss of magic rating AT ALL can cause geases for physical mages at
character creation. Just like losing essence, putting points of your
magic rating into physad powers counts as a loss of magic as far as your
spellcasting is concerned. So, a physmag with, as the example goes, 4
points of physad powers, one point of cyber and 1 point of magic for
spellcasting and conjuring etc. IN EFFECT has lost 5 points of magic as
far as spellcasting etc. is concerned. Thus, two geasa.

Check it, K. It's there in Awakenings.

*Doc' is really quite sure about this one. Of course, that hasn't meant
anything in the past. :)*

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 32
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:32:29 +0100
According to K in the Shadows, at 13:49 on 10 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> > > Kleiduivenmelker
>
> Okay, I'll bite .. exactly what *does* it mean???

"Kleiduiven" means "clay pigeons", and a "duivenmelker" is
someone who
breeds pigeons. I think you can figure out the rest for yourself...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kleiduivenmelker
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 33
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:32:29 +0100
According to D. Ghost, at 13:24 on 10 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> How about this bit of rules lawyering :)... If a PhysMage puts 1 point of
> magic in Physical Adept abilities and loses 1 point of magic from cyber,
> does the PhysMage get a Geas? If you note the wording, the two appear to
> be tabulated seperately... However, I think the spirit of the rules was
> that the above PhysMage would recieve one geas (or not be able to
> intiate).

There would be no geas in this case, I think -- the text is IMO pretty
clear on needing to put TWO points into physad abilities _and_ losing two
Magic Points as normal; the way I interpret that, is to mean that the
points put into physad powers don't count as normal Magic loss, so they
don't count for getting a geas if they push the _total_ Magic loss to a
multiple of 2.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kleiduivenmelker
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 34
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 07:48:32 -0800
> If you like to live with all the geasa this will give you, sure. For every
> two Magic points lost from your non-physad side you need to get a geas...
> so, three points in physad powers, a few initiations, and say 2 Essence
> worth of cyberware gives you two geasa. Hmm...
>
What do you mean live with all the geasa. I'm not
familiar with that.

-Toffer
Message no. 35
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:01:41 -0500
<Snip and reply to Chris Davison>
>What do you mean live with all the geasa. I'm not
>familiar with that.

He means simply that you have to live with those "crutches" to
your magic. If you break the geasa, you have problems with your
mojo. The geasa may be something like "Only works at night"
or "Can only casts spells while drunk" etc. The Grimoire and
Awakenings both have info on this. MITS will redefine and clarify it
most likely.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 36
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:26:34 -0500
At 07:48 AM 1/11/99 -0800, Davidson, Chris wrote:
>> If you like to live with all the geasa this will give you, sure. For every
>> two Magic points lost from your non-physad side you need to get a geas...
>> so, three points in physad powers, a few initiations, and say 2 Essence
>> worth of cyberware gives you two geasa. Hmm...
>>
>What do you mean live with all the geasa. I'm not
>familiar with that.

Every 2 points of Magic loss incurs a geas, as per the Grimoire.
Additionally, for a physmage, every 2 points of Magic dedicated to physad
abilities incurs a geas against magic use. Also, Awakenings introduced a
rule allowing physads to use Geasa to reduce the cost of the abilities, and
many physmages will go that route.

However, bear in mind that initiation allows one to shed geasa. When you
take a grade of initiation, you can test to see if you can remove a geas
from magic use. AFAIK, this does apply to the geasa a physmage incurs from
allocating points to physad abilities. In addition, a physad who initiates
can choose to use his earned Magic point to buy off the geasa he put on his
physad abilities to make them cheaper. Presumably under the new Karma for
Power Points system in SR3, the physad could also buy the points off
directly with Karma.

This is why the physmage, IMHO, becomes very dangerous once he starts
initiating. He gets to build his powers and reduce his limitations
simultaneously. Throw in a Power Focus to give his magic side a power
boost, and yeesh.


--
Starjammer - starjammer@**********.com - Marietta, GA

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death
that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it
to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn
the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be
nothing. Only I will remain."
-- Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Frank Herbert, Dune
Message no. 37
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:29:16 -0800
> He means simply that you have to live with those "crutches" to
> your magic. If you break the geasa, you have problems with your
> mojo. The geasa may be something like "Only works at night"
> or "Can only casts spells while drunk" etc. The Grimoire and
> Awakenings both have info on this. MITS will redefine and clarify it
> most likely.
>
Yeah, I've read what they are...I just didn't know
that you get them from implanting cyberware into
your body.

Now that I've got your attention tho...can a mage
add bioware without loosing magic points. I was
trying to find something about it in my
sourcebooks last night, but was not able to. Is
that because there is nothing wrote about it?

-Toffer
Message no. 38
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:42:59 -0600
> > > Kleiduivenmelker
>
> Okay, I'll bite .. exactly what *does* it mean???

"Kleiduiven" means "clay pigeons", and a "duivenmelker" is
someone who
breeds pigeons. I think you can figure out the rest for yourself...

======================

I'll ask next. Is "clay pigeons" the same thing as "cannon fodder"?
If so, I can make the connection from there.

Language barriers are so much fun sometimes...

Tony Rabiola
rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
(still working on the Fifth)
Proud owner BABY #972
Message no. 39
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:38:08 -0500
At 11:42 AM 1/11/99 -0600, Tony Rabiola wrote:
>
>I'll ask next. Is "clay pigeons" the same thing as "cannon
fodder"?
>If so, I can make the connection from there.
>
>Language barriers are so much fun sometimes...

Sort of. Clay pigeons are the little exploding frisbees that are used for
skeet shooting. You can pretty much make the same inferrence, though.


--
Starjammer - starjammer@**********.com - Marietta, GA

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death
that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it
to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn
the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be
nothing. Only I will remain."
-- Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Frank Herbert, Dune
Message no. 40
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:43:28 -0600
>>I'll ask next. Is "clay pigeons" the same thing as "cannon
fodder"?
>>If so, I can make the connection from there.
>>
>>Language barriers are so much fun sometimes...
>
>Sort of. Clay pigeons are the little exploding frisbees that are
used for
>skeet shooting. You can pretty much make the same inferrence,
though.


I should have made myself clearer. I know what clay pigeons are, just
wondering if they used them in a different context. Denotation Vs.
connotation sort of thing.

Tony Rabiola
rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
(still working on the Fifth)
Proud owner BABY #972
Message no. 41
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:14:35 -0600
:Yeah, I've read what they are...I just didn't know
:that you get them from implanting cyberware into
:your body.

Implanting cyber cost essence, usually. That can cause (usually does)
magic loss, which can cause you to pick up geasa (if the total lifetime
loss is high enough).

:Now that I've got your attention tho...can a mage
:add bioware without loosing magic points.

A topic well covered in other threads. We have always used the method
whereby BI is added to magic loss from other circumstances- so a smartlink
and synaptic accelerator 1 comes to .5 essence lost, .3 BI, and 1 magic
lost. Man and Machine will likely change the effects of bioware on magic
somewhat, but the balance above has worked in our games.

Mongoose
Message no. 42
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:53:36 EST
In a message dated 1/11/1999 5:33:10 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.NL writes:

>
> "Kleiduiven" means "clay pigeons", and a
"duivenmelker" is someone who
> breeds pigeons. I think you can figure out the rest for yourself...
>
A Pigeon Polisher???!!!???

-K (SHIELDS UP NOW!!!!)
Message no. 43
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:46:15 +0100
According to K in the Shadows, at 18:53 on 11 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> A Pigeon Polisher???!!!???
>
> -K (SHIELDS UP NOW!!!!)

Now I have to ask about the joke in this...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kleiduivenmelker
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 44
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: This is bordering on the pathetic
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:12:53 EST
In a message dated 1/12/1999 5:48:50 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.NL writes:

>
> > A Pigeon Polisher???!!!???
> >
> > -K (SHIELDS UP NOW!!!!)
>
> Now I have to ask about the joke in this...

It's a cruel and dispicably sexually related comment. It ranks right up there
with jokes about "chickens" and "sheep." Sorry, I'm on three new
mailing
lists, and one of them is "alternative" in nature. Reading both the RN and
the other one at (nearly) the same time can get interesting.

-K

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