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Message no. 1
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:59:27 -0400
On Thursday, August 14, 1997 12:37, Mark Steedman wrote
> ---------
> Given that Mike is not keen on the IE etc. it is likely this thread
> will play out in the novels till he manages to wrap up the horror
> threats in story at which point in time the immortal eleves will
> probably go sit on their backsides for a while and play politics
> amongst themselves at which point they can be safely ignored.
> It's not like the Tirs actually do very much except seem scary and
> keep most non eleves out, sure they have plans but the corps not them
> have the Thor shots :), so they have 4th World magic, try stopping
> something with the kinetic energy of a Thor shot, it's mundane, very
> very fast (please note no using radar systems to aim spells, sure
> you can ahve a force 10,000 barrier spell, you'll just get old
> Vergigorm come to play instead :) ) and they can fire lots at once.

Actually, this brings to mind the FireTrack (or some damn thing) system
from Lone Star sourcebook. The one where a radar scans the airspace, and
when a target matching set parameters appears in the scan area, releases a
fire elemental (apparently bound to remote service) to engulf the target.
The stated purpose is to be able to intercept and detonate hand-fired
missiles in the scan area. But the system seems a little too expensive for
that.

My pet theory is that the UCAS military is driving the development of this
system. With a little redefining of parameters (and some spell anchoring to
be able to highlight the target for the elemental) this kind of setup makes
a pretty nifty way to divert Thor strikes into an area where the original
target isn't.

Scenario: Aircraft carrier group. The 205X equivalent of the AEGIS cruiser
detects incoming Thorshot. The CIC computer does *something* that a Detect
(Fu) spell can detect. The detect (Fu) spell is linked to a *HUGE* detect
Thorshot spell, which highlights the incoming Thorshot magically. The
detect (Fu) spell also triggers the release of a bound Air elemental whose
remote service is "When released, Move the highlighted Thorshot so it won't
hit the CV-group." All of this happens at computer, instantaneous, or fast
astral speeds, so it is certainly fast enough.

Can the PC's do it? Probably not. Can a government contractor, with a lot
of money do it. Probably.


Thoughts?

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 2
From: "Mike (Leszek Karlik)" <trrkt@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:19:53 +0000
Hmmm...

On 14 Aug 97 Jonathan Hurley tried to disseminate foul capitalist
lies by writing:

> Scenario: Aircraft carrier group. The 205X equivalent of the AEGIS cruiser
> detects incoming Thorshot. The CIC computer does *something* that a Detect
> (Fu) spell can detect. The detect (Fu) spell is linked to a *HUGE* detect
> Thorshot spell, which highlights the incoming Thorshot magically. The
> detect (Fu) spell also triggers the release of a bound Air elemental whose
> remote service is "When released, Move the highlighted Thorshot so it won't
> hit the CV-group." All of this happens at computer, instantaneous, or fast
> astral speeds, so it is certainly fast enough.

> Can the PC's do it? Probably not. Can a government contractor, with a lot
> of money do it. Probably.

What is Thorshot, anyway? If it's an orbital massdriver, or something
like that, maybe the PC's could pull it off with a very big, badass
elemental and a "Detect Thorshot, Extended range"... The only
drawback of not having an AEGIS system to detect incoming Thorshots
is that you have an active, anchored spell with you all the time (but
I don't know if it's that dangerous...).
But then, why waste such a badass elemental?
You could use the idea for anti-missile defense, though. The problem
is, the "Detect Missile, ER" spell would detect ANY missile.
Including yours, or the ones aimed at something else... :(
Using elementals for anti missile defense is not such a bad thought,
though... Much better than chaffs/flares... <grin>


Mike (Leszek Karlik) - trrkt@******.com; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
The Russian Express Card Moto: Don't Leave Home!
Message no. 3
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:48:16 -0500
At 16-Aug-97 wrote Mike (Leszek Karlik):


>What is Thorshot, anyway? If it's an orbital massdriver, or something
>like that, maybe the PC's could pull it off with a very big, badass
>elemental and a "Detect Thorshot, Extended range"... The only
>drawback of not having an AEGIS system to detect incoming Thorshots
>is that you have an active, anchored spell with you all the time (but
>I don't know if it's that dangerous...).

Yup its in shadowrun an orbital massdriver, its fires solid small missile
size projectiles.
Its mentioned in the atzlan book and in the House of the sun novel.
The next step from that in shadowrun are the FROBS from ares.
These systems uses mirv like projectiles with nuclar warheads instead
of solid projectiles.

>But then, why waste such a badass elemental?

The only thing you can do with an elementar would be they use of the
movement power to slow down the projectie, so you get a small change
to hit it with some anti-missile weapon.
All other powers are next to useless IMO, because the projectile is way to
fast
for the elementar to catch up with him.
And standing in they flightpath woud destroy the elementar on impact,
not slowing down the projectile.

>You could use the idea for anti-missile defense, though. The problem
>is, the "Detect Missile, ER" spell would detect ANY missile.
>Including yours, or the ones aimed at something else... :(
>Using elementals for anti missile defense is not such a bad thought,
>though... Much better than chaffs/flares... <grin>

Yeah, agreed here.
Nice idea for my character.
You could design a one way detection spell for such.
chaffs/flares, you have more of them at your disposal than elementars, or not.
So it makes sense to use them most of the time, and they are cheaper.
Saving the elementars for the big nasty missiles.


--
Barbie


One lived hour is still living.
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 10:13:47 +0100
Barbie said on 15:48/16 Aug 97...

> Yup its in shadowrun an orbital massdriver, its fires solid small missile
> size projectiles.
> Its mentioned in the atzlan book and in the House of the sun novel.

About the size of a crowbar, IIRC, and it shoots a reasonably large number
of those down onto whatever the operators pick as the target. Not nice to
have rain down on you...

> The only thing you can do with an elementar would be they use of the
> movement power to slow down the projectie, so you get a small change
> to hit it with some anti-missile weapon.

Anyone know how fast something like this would be falling down? Once you
know that you can calculate the Force of elemental necessary to pull this
kind of trick.

> All other powers are next to useless IMO, because the projectile is way to
> fast for the elementar to catch up with him.
> And standing in they flightpath woud destroy the elementar on impact,
> not slowing down the projectile.

I'm not too sure about that, after all Thor is a missile weapon that's
100% computer-controlled, with no living will behind it at all. I guess
the question is whether a spirit is hurt by falling debris, and Bug City
(I believe) tells us an insect spirit can stand in a collapsing building
and take no notice of it. I would think that an elemental exposed to a
Thor shot would be similarly "protected".

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Our foreign policy is not a political issue."
--Harry S. Truman
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 5
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 18:27:59 +1000
> > The only thing you can do with an elementar would be they use of the
> > movement power to slow down the projectie, so you get a small change
> > to hit it with some anti-missile weapon.
>
> Anyone know how fast something like this would be falling down? Once you
> know that you can calculate the Force of elemental necessary to pull this
> kind of trick.
>

From memory and rough estimate, I'd assume it to be on the order of 10,000
kph. That's a lot of energy.
Message no. 6
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 16:01:09 -0500
At 17-Aug-97 wrote Gurth:


>Anyone know how fast something like this would be falling down? Once you
>know that you can calculate the Force of elemental necessary to pull this
>kind of trick.

In the SDI project, railgun tests had a top speed of the projectile
of 150km/sec!!!
But the very large amount of energy needed for this would make its
useless as an orbital weapon, without an nuclar powersource.
So I guess the thorshots willbe much slower. maybe around
10-20km/sec.

>I'm not too sure about that, after all Thor is a missile weapon that's
>100% computer-controlled, with no living will behind it at all. I guess
>the question is whether a spirit is hurt by falling debris, and Bug City
>(I believe) tells us an insect spirit can stand in a collapsing building
>and take no notice of it. I would think that an elemental exposed to a
>Thor shot would be similarly "protected".

Maybe the elementar is not directly effected, but it can`t stand in the
way either, so it will be pushed with the projectile right towards the target
or the projectile will punsh right through it.
And I go not for the impossible to hurt without a living will behind
the weapon thing. Its just impossible to KILL the spirit this way.
The way I see it the spirit will be disrupted and his manifested form
be destoryed.
And the immunity to normal weapons makes them not truly immun, just makes
them very hard to damage as a mondane.
--
Barbie


One lived hour is still living.
Message no. 7
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 01:10:34 +1000
At 18:27 17/08/97 +1000, MARTIN E. GOTTHARD wrote:
>> Anyone know how fast something like this would be falling down? Once you
>> know that you can calculate the Force of elemental necessary to pull this
>> kind of trick.
>>
>
>>From memory and rough estimate, I'd assume it to be on the order of 10,000
>kph. That's a lot of energy.

IIRC these kinetic weapons work by diverting the LEO velocity of their
launch platform on to a vector that intersects the planet. If they are
considered aerodynamic enough to ignore atmospheric friction, as was
planned, then they will hit at LEO velocity i.e. 28,800 kph or five miles a
second. Faster if some sort of propulsion system is also used to launch
them. As they were also planned as precision weapons, they would be
hellishly effective.

These Thor weapons also come in different sizes for different targets. A
swarm of crowbar sized Thor weapons were planned for striking an entire
invading army front, particularly Armour. Larger weapons were planned for
penetrating reinforced IBM silos thereby trashing the missiles before they
could be launched, and even larger Thor weapons were planned as ship killers.

Chris

_______________________________________________________________
Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 19:22:22 +0100
MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 18:27/17 Aug 97...

> > Anyone know how fast something like this would be falling down? Once you
> > know that you can calculate the Force of elemental necessary to pull this
> > kind of trick.
>
> From memory and rough estimate, I'd assume it to be on the order of 10,000
> kph. That's a lot of energy.

If you have a Force 10 elemental, you can reduce the energy by a factor
100 instantly. Although I doubt that'll reduce its damage by a significant
degree, slowing them down to 1000 km/h should give an anti-missile system
a chance at a shot (after all, anti-ship missiles reach that kind of
velocity as well). That leaves two problems: 1) anti-missile systems
don't, AFAIK, look straight up, but that's easy enough to solve; and 2) a
Thor shot would consists of more than one projectile, which makes it very
hard to defend against.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Our foreign policy is not a political issue."
--Harry S. Truman
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 9
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 14:24:37 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-17 13:26:54 EDT, gurth@******.NL (Gurth) writes:

> That leaves two problems:

> 1) anti-missile systems don't, AFAIK, look straight up, but that's easy
enough to solve;

Wrong, the AM missile itself does not care where the inbound offender is as
long as the ground station it was launched from has the target painted.

> and 2) a Thor shot would consists of more than one projectile, which makes
it very hard to defend against.

The AM system could have installed in their wardheads multiple warheads, this
way it could take out multiple warheads. Another idea is to put an EM
(electro-magnetic) generator into the missile, the object not to strike the
Thors, just screw up their gyro's enough to put them off course by some.

Mike (Airwisp)
Message no. 10
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 14:19:28 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-17 10:06:15 EDT, barbie@**********.COM (Barbie)
writes:

<<<[Maybe the elementar is not directly effected, but it can`t stand in the
way either, so it will be pushed with the projectile right towards the target
or the projectile will punsh right through it. And I go not for the
impossible to hurt without a living will behind the weapon thing. Its just
impossible to KILL the spirit this way. The way I see it the spirit will be
disrupted and his manifested form be destoryed. And the immunity to normal
weapons makes them not truly immun, just makes them very hard to damage as a
mundane.]>>>

But that is also where the rub is, a mundane can hurt a manifest spirit since
there is direct emotive control in the action ("Die Sucker, die !") than a
computer controlled Thor bar. All that would happen is that the bar would
pass right through the spirit and all it would do is wonder just what in the
hell copped a cheap feel at 30,000 feet.

Remember the key to this is emotive intent, without the Willpower to engage
the damn thing, no computer can even attempt to come anywhere near damaging a
spirit, unless the computer was carrying around a small cannister of
"FAB-III(b)" as Mace.

Mike (AirWisp)
Message no. 11
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 00:04:20 -0400
On Sunday, August 17, 1997 14:22, Gurth[SMTP:gurth@******.NL] wrote:
> MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 18:27/17 Aug 97...
>
> > > Anyone know how fast something like this would be falling down? Once
you
> > > know that you can calculate the Force of elemental necessary to pull
this
> > > kind of trick.
> >
> > From memory and rough estimate, I'd assume it to be on the order of
10,000
> > kph. That's a lot of energy.
>
> If you have a Force 10 elemental, you can reduce the energy by a factor
> 100 instantly. Although I doubt that'll reduce its damage by a
significant
> degree, slowing them down to 1000 km/h should give an anti-missile system
> a chance at a shot (after all, anti-ship missiles reach that kind of
> velocity as well). That leaves two problems: 1) anti-missile systems
> don't, AFAIK, look straight up, but that's easy enough to solve; and 2) a
> Thor shot would consists of more than one projectile, which makes it very
> hard to defend against.
>

Why bother stopping them? If you can detect them at the edge of the
manasphere, you can have an elemental intercept them and divert them away
from their intended target. (Rough on anything around, but I envisioned
this as a shipborne system.)

Actually, you don't need to detect them at the edge of the manasphere. You
just need to be able to detect and highlight them far enough away that your
elemental's movement power can deflect the shots far enough away that the
shockwave generated by the crowbar hitting the ocean can be ridden through
by warships (which AFAIK are designed to be able to take a small nuke going
off "close" alongside.)

Movement power multiplies movement (in this case, it multiplies the "miss
vector," the component of movement that not is straight down at the
target.)

Actually, now that I think about it, if an AEGIS cruiser has detection
capabilities to the Heavyside Layer, it could track the thing down with a
heavy laser device. Run it off the fusion power plant (Shadowrun has them
small enough to drive a ship) and the Thorshot is following a predictable
ballistic path.

At any rate, a laser arguably produces an elemental effect, and even if the
Thorshot cannot be detected far enough away from the CV-group by a spell to
highlight, and elemental could certainly follow the beam of light to the
target.

At any rate, a Thorshot is a great deterrent weapon. It sucks as a
battlefield weapon, as it is vulnerable to ASAT weaponry. OTOH, it is great
to muscle non-ASAT capable entities around with.
--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:44:15 +0100
Barbie said on 16:01/17 Aug 97...

> In the SDI project, railgun tests had a top speed of the projectile
> of 150km/sec!!!
> But the very large amount of energy needed for this would make its
> useless as an orbital weapon, without an nuclar powersource.
> So I guess the thorshots willbe much slower. maybe around
> 10-20km/sec.

I can't find the passage that talks about the Thor weapon ATM (anyone care
to point me in the right direction? Someone mentioned the Aztlan SB but
since it's not in the index, finding it would take a lot of time...) but I
picture it as a weapon that's simply dropped down onto the target; after
all with impact velocities approaching 30 km/s you don't really need to
push it much faster, do you? For comparison, it's 30 times faster than
rifle bullets, so its kinetic energy will already be enormous. IOW, a
railgun to launch it would be unnecessary, I think.

> Maybe the elementar is not directly effected, but it can`t stand in the
> way either, so it will be pushed with the projectile right towards the target
> or the projectile will punsh right through it.
> And I go not for the impossible to hurt without a living will behind
> the weapon thing. Its just impossible to KILL the spirit this way.

That's not what some FASA sources say; sure, it makes some sense to give
the spirit a penalty for being on the receiving end of such an immense
attack, but there are also reasons why not to.

> And the immunity to normal weapons makes them not truly immun, just makes
> them very hard to damage as a mondane.

They have immunity (= armor equal to twice Essence) against weapons that
are aimed by a person, but do not carry the full strength of will. Thor
is one step further than those, IMHO, so the spirit should be even better
protected from it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Our foreign policy is not a political issue."
--Harry S. Truman
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 12:07:37 +0100
Mike Bobroff said on 14:24/17 Aug 97...

> > 1) anti-missile systems don't, AFAIK, look straight up, but that's easy
> > enough to solve;
>
> Wrong, the AM missile itself does not care where the inbound offender is as
> long as the ground station it was launched from has the target painted.

I was more thinking of Goalkeeper systems (Vulcan Phalanx to Americans),
but missiles are a possibility as well. However, another real problem I
just thought of is that, if Thor projectiles are the size of crowbars,
they are _much_ smaller than any missile in existance, and therefore much
harder to hit, especially for a system designed to take out medium- to
large-size anti-ship missiles.

> The AM system could have installed in their wardheads multiple warheads, this
> way it could take out multiple warheads. Another idea is to put an EM
> (electro-magnetic) generator into the missile, the object not to strike the
> Thors, just screw up their gyro's enough to put them off course by some.

Are there gyros in Thor projectiles?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Our foreign policy is not a political issue."
--Harry S. Truman
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 14
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:49:25 +1000
> I can't find the passage that talks about the Thor weapon ATM (anyone care
> to point me in the right direction?)

From memory it's mentioned in Paradise Lost, in the bit where they're
discussing how the US fleet moved to re-annex Hawai (sp??) and got warned
off by a close-proximity Thor bombardment by the corps.

Marty
Message no. 15
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 08:13:15 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-18 04:43:18 EDT, you write:

> I can't find the passage that talks about the Thor weapon ATM (anyone care
> to point me in the right direction?

Look in the book House of the Sun, it is mentioned in there. It is also
mentioned in Paradise Lost, when dealing with the US Navy and the Hawaiian
Secession.

Mike
Message no. 16
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 08:22:18 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-18 06:05:44 EDT, gurth@******.NL writes:

> I was more thinking of Goalkeeper systems (Vulcan Phalanx to Americans),
> but missiles are a possibility as well. However, another real problem I
> just thought of is that, if Thor projectiles are the size of crowbars,
> they are _much_ smaller than any missile in existance, and therefore much
> harder to hit, especially for a system designed to take out medium- to
> large-size anti-ship missiles.

True, but they also have a high thermal signature from the freefall they are
in currently.

> > The AM system could have installed in their wardheads multiple warheads,

> this
> > way it could take out multiple warheads. Another idea is to put an EM
> > (electro-magnetic) generator into the missile, the object not to strike
> the
> > Thors, just screw up their gyro's enough to put them off course by some.
>
> Are there gyros in Thor projectiles?

Yes, otherwise a thor would not be able to adequately orient itself onto a
target.

Mike
Message no. 17
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 14:35:02 -0400
On Monday, August 18, 1997 08:22, Mike Bobroff[SMTP:AirWisp@***.COM] wrote:
> In a message dated 97-08-18 06:05:44 EDT, gurth@******.NL writes:
> > Are there gyros in Thor projectiles?
>
> Yes, otherwise a thor would not be able to adequately orient itself onto
a
> target.

The Thor system is the ultimate in iron bombs. All the targeting takes
place onboard the Thor satellite. The crowbar is literally that; a small
piece of material that can withstand re-entry without vaporizing to
nothing. It is designed to have as high a terminal velocity as possible.
Remember, Thor is SR is not a battlefield weapon, it is a theatre weapon.
Its targets are either not moving (fixed installation. (Stand off and nuke
the site from orbit)) or moving relatively slowly and predictably (Aircraft
Carriers and their escorting naval groups are relatively unmaneuverable.)

No need for on-board guidance.

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 18
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 19:49:49 +0100
In message <Pine.SOL.3.91.970818204802.16831J-100000@*****.student.gu.ed
u.au>, "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU> writes
>From memory it's mentioned in Paradise Lost, in the bit where they're
>discussing how the US fleet moved to re-annex Hawai (sp??) and got warned
>off by a close-proximity Thor bombardment by the corps.

And I'll guarantee that this incident acted on THOR defence the way the
Eilat sinking in 1967 did for shipborne missile defences. Ten years
downstream there will be (at the top end) a full multilayered defence
against these weapons. Even at the lower end of military capability
there will be some cheap-and-cheerful countermeasures with at least some
chance of protecting the target.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 19
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:47:58 +0000
On 18 Aug 97 at 8:13, Mike Bobroff wrote:
> > I can't find the passage that talks about the Thor weapon ATM (anyone care
> > to point me in the right direction?
>
> Look in the book House of the Sun, it is mentioned in there. It is also
> mentioned in Paradise Lost, when dealing with the US Navy and the Hawaiian
> Secession.
The onbly sourcebook I can remember that mentions Thor-Shots is the
"Aztlan Sourcebook":
Ares Macrotechnology Operation RECIPROCITY Azt 45
Aztechnology Operation RECIPROCITY Azt 43 47
Aztechnology Operation RECIPROCITY Azt 54
Fuchi Industrial Electronics Operation RECIPROCITY Azt 45
Megacorporations Operation RECIPROCITY Azt 54
Mitsuhama Computer Technologies operation RECIPROCITY Azt 45

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The truth may be |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| out there, but |
| \___ __/ | | lies are inside |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | your head. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | -- T.Pratchett |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 20
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:57:55 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-17 08:30:24 EDT, s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU (MARTIN
E. GOTTHARD) writes:

> > Anyone know how fast something like this would be falling down? Once you
> > know that you can calculate the Force of elemental necessary to pull
this
> > kind of trick.
> >
>
> From memory and rough estimate, I'd assume it to be on the order of 10,000
> kph. That's a lot of energy.
>
>
Using the KPH suggestion above, and retrieving an old note from -WAY- back
when, that would translate to roughly 1200(D) damage. Now -THAT- would be an
overkill...
-K
Message no. 21
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 06:29:17 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-19 22:06:18 EDT, you write:

> > From memory and rough estimate, I'd assume it to be on the order of
10,000
> > kph. That's a lot of energy.
>
> Using the KPH suggestion above, and retrieving an old note from -WAY- back
> when, that would translate to roughly 1200(D) damage. Now -THAT- would be
an
> overkill...

That is, how shall we say, inaccurate. I think. My brain's too fried to do
the math at the moment, but unless it's accelerated to 10,000 kph, just
"dropping" it wouldn't work due to terminal velocity. Does someone who
actually paid attention in physics class wanna take a crack at the math?

Wolfstar
Message no. 22
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 20:54:42 +1000
> > > From memory and rough estimate, I'd assume it to be on the order of
> 10,000
> > > kph. That's a lot of energy.
> >
> > Using the KPH suggestion above, and retrieving an old note from -WAY- back
> > when, that would translate to roughly 1200(D) damage. Now -THAT- would be
> an
> > overkill...
>
> That is, how shall we say, inaccurate. I think. My brain's too fried to do
> the math at the moment, but unless it's accelerated to 10,000 kph, just
> "dropping" it wouldn't work due to terminal velocity. Does someone who
> actually paid attention in physics class wanna take a crack at the math?
>

Read the previous posts; Someone suggested that a drop from
geosynchronous orbit could accelerate the thing to the order of several
km/second.

The 10,000 kph was a rough estimate, based on the fact that the
projectile is not aerodynamic lifting body. The space shuttle hits the
outer atmoshere at mach 10+ (10,280 kph, unless I've got my conversions
wrong) and uses the atmosphere to brake to a manageable speed.

By the way; (Using the suggested 1200D) If you treat the Thor like an AP
missile, and give it a damage reduction of -8 per meter, the blast is
going to kill unprotected humans at a radius of approximately 140 meters.

Not bad. *grin*

Marty
Message no. 23
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 07:37:08 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-20 06:59:30 EDT, you write:

> Read the previous posts; Someone suggested that a drop from
> geosynchronous orbit could accelerate the thing to the order of several
> km/second.

Sure, if you don't take into account terminal velocity. I'll try and figure
out what I mean and the math and all that after I wake up this afternoon.

> The 10,000 kph was a rough estimate, based on the fact that the
> projectile is not aerodynamic lifting body. The space shuttle hits the
> outer atmoshere at mach 10+ (10,280 kph, unless I've got my conversions
> wrong) and uses the atmosphere to brake to a manageable speed.

Right, but the reason it's moving that fast is so that it can maintain
orbit. If it goes slower than orbital speed it starts a re-entry at a quite
possibly unhealthy time or location.

> By the way; (Using the suggested 1200D) If you treat the Thor like an AP
> missile, and give it a damage reduction of -8 per meter, the blast is
> going to kill unprotected humans at a radius of approximately 140 meters.
>
> Not bad. *grin*

True, but this is a fraggin' crowbar we're talking about. There's no WAY it
would have a blast area. No warhead.

Wolfstar
Message no. 24
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:35:39 GMT
George Metz writes

> > Read the previous posts; Someone suggested that a drop from
> > geosynchronous orbit could accelerate the thing to the order of several
> > km/second.
>
> Sure, if you don't take into account terminal velocity. I'll try and figure
> out what I mean and the math and all that after I wake up this afternoon.
>
Orbital velocity is something around 8km/second, or 29,000km/hour,
relative to the Earth or you would have a nasty accident involving
gravity. Unless you have a very big truster to shove the thing in you
will have to slow down to hit the planet but 7km/second is well messy

KE = 1/2mv(squared), around 25MJ/kg! um ouch!

> > The 10,000 kph was a rough estimate, based on the fact that the
> > projectile is not aerodynamic lifting body. The space shuttle hits the
> > outer atmoshere at mach 10+ (10,280 kph, unless I've got my conversions
> > wrong) and uses the atmosphere to brake to a manageable speed.
>
> Right, but the reason it's moving that fast is so that it can maintain
> orbit. If it goes slower than orbital speed it starts a re-entry at a quite
> possibly unhealthy time or location.
>
Yep. I'm not sure on your 10,280 Kph, the shuttle drops a very small
amount of velocity in its 'deorbit' burn and the vast majority during
huge S curves in the upper atmosphere while it uses friction to turn
its kinetic energy into heat. The angle at which you 'hit' the
atmosphere is fairly critical, to steep and you generate heat to fast
and burn up, to shallow and you just skip off. If you want more
detail on the Shuttle than you want look up the detailed
explanations on NASA's shuttle web site.

> > By the way; (Using the suggested 1200D) If you treat the Thor like an AP
> > missile, and give it a damage reduction of -8 per meter, the blast is
> > going to kill unprotected humans at a radius of approximately 140 meters.
>
> True, but this is a fraggin' crowbar we're talking about. There's no WAY it
> would have a blast area. No warhead.
>
Um, dump enough energy into one spot and you won't need a warhead,
the expansion of the superheated air and flash vapourised rocks at
the impact point will do the job for you, nice big shockwave, but your
'proverbial' crowbar needs to be pretty big to do this sort of thing.
How big i'm not to sure, some physics texts and a few calculations
and some estimates could be made but you have got to be looking at
enough energy to raise 100kg of stuff 1000 degrees to get a real bang
(ok equivalent, for 'explodes'you need > 1000 celcuis) and thats a lot
of energy when you add in latent heat as well.

Mark
Message no. 25
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:04:34 +0000
> > That is, how shall we say, inaccurate. I think. My brain's too fried to do
> > the math at the moment, but unless it's accelerated to 10,000 kph, just
> > "dropping" it wouldn't work due to terminal velocity. Does someone who
> > actually paid attention in physics class wanna take a crack at the math?
> >
>
> Read the previous posts; Someone suggested that a drop from
> geosynchronous orbit could accelerate the thing to the order of several
> km/second.
>
> The 10,000 kph was a rough estimate, based on the fact that the
> projectile is not aerodynamic lifting body. The space shuttle hits the
> outer atmoshere at mach 10+ (10,280 kph, unless I've got my conversions
> wrong) and uses the atmosphere to brake to a manageable speed.

The Shuttle's operational speed is between 20-40 mach, incidentally,
depending on orbit.

Well, if something is detached (dropped) from a satellite in a
geosynchronous (or any other) orbit, what happens? It stays in orbit!
There's no impetus for it to change that orbit. Ever. (Okay, it will
degrade slowly due to the (very low) resistance in space... expect it
to fall down in 20-40 years. Not a useful weapon.).

What happens if you push something towards the earth?

It will be moving at too high a lateral speed compared to escape
velocity once it gets further down, so it will push back. (After
loosing a little speed, and then bouncing down again in a declining
sinus curve.. until it looses orbital speed altogether and plummets
like a ... rock.

(Almost any movement you try in orbit is hampered by that sinus
'overshoot - overcompensate' problem. That is why docking in space is
a real pain in the posterior... besides that it's pretty bad to
miss.).


If you want a real big bang 'down there', you need powerful boosters
to throw it with. Now I didn't pay *THAT* much attention in physics,
so I can't say exactly how big... :/


--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 26
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:04:34 +0000
> > By the way; (Using the suggested 1200D) If you treat the Thor like an AP
> > missile, and give it a damage reduction of -8 per meter, the blast is
> > going to kill unprotected humans at a radius of approximately 140 meters.
> >
> > Not bad. *grin*
>
> True, but this is a fraggin' crowbar we're talking about. There's no WAY it
> would have a blast area. No warhead.

That... is not entirely accurate. Consider the energy released from
the impact. The impact point would be superheated, and cause some
fission due to nuclear 'overheating'. (Not sure of the english words
here.. electrons leaving the atom entirely as the nuclear orbits
are expanded too far due to abundant energy causing the electrons
to move faster; atoms decomposing into plasma as the particles move
too fast to maintain molecular cohesion). This would in turn
(and directly) cause radiation, and an explosion - like release of
heat, subatomic particles as well as debris from the impact itself
causing damage.

Take a good, long look at the moon in a binocular. You'll see what is
meant with 'area of effect' there. You see all those craters?
They were created by 'fraggin crowbars'.

You see all those B-movies where the alien killer gloop crashes with
an asteroid in some backyard? A huge asteroid barely impacting,
leaving a 1-meter depression in the ground?

I have only one thing to say to that..

MUAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 27
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 20:30:56 +1000
> > Read the previous posts; Someone suggested that a drop from
> > geosynchronous orbit could accelerate the thing to the order of several
> > km/second.
>
> Sure, if you don't take into account terminal velocity. I'll try and figure
> out what I mean and the math and all that after I wake up this afternoon.
>

Terminal velocity varies depending upon the object. Sure, a falling
human has a terminal velocity of about 350 kph (from memory), but a
falling asteroid has a terminal velocity of a lot higher.

A Thor is a lot more like an asteriod than a human, that's for sure....
They'd be made out of Tungsten or Titanium ( ie any material with a
high melting point, and which is very hard)... a fair bit denser than
your average rock, which is composed of silica.

> > By the way; (Using the suggested 1200D) If you treat the Thor like an AP
> > missile, and give it a damage reduction of -8 per meter, the blast is
> > going to kill unprotected humans at a radius of approximately 140 meters.
> >
> > Not bad. *grin*
>
> True, but this is a fraggin' crowbar we're talking about. There's no WAY it
> would have a blast area. No warhead.
>

Ummm, right. Ever seen a picture of the moon?? The rocks that made those
craters didn't have warheads either, and they threw ejecta right off the
planet in some cases.

The large asteroid that hit russia circa 1903 flattened _every_ tree in a
twenty five mile radius. A blast does not nessecitate the presence
of a warhead.

Marty
Message no. 28
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Thorshot defense (Was RE: Dunklezahn's Will, revisted)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 06:47:48 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-21 02:01:45 EDT, you write:

> That... is not entirely accurate. Consider the energy released from
> the impact. The impact point would be superheated, and cause some
> fission due to nuclear 'overheating'. (Not sure of the english words
> here.. electrons leaving the atom entirely as the nuclear orbits
> are expanded too far due to abundant energy causing the electrons
> to move faster; atoms decomposing into plasma as the particles move
> too fast to maintain molecular cohesion).

I believe the word you're looking for is Ionization.

> This would in turn
> (and directly) cause radiation, and an explosion - like release of
> heat, subatomic particles as well as debris from the impact itself
> causing damage.

Some minor radiation, maybe, but we aren't talking about radiation on the
level of a tactical nuke.

> Take a good, long look at the moon in a binocular. You'll see what is
> meant with 'area of effect' there. You see all those craters?
> They were created by 'fraggin crowbars'.

Not really. Meteorites impacting with the moon are A) not slowed by air
resistance, and B) are impacting a planetary body with 1/6th the gravity of
earth. Not to mention that they're roundish, while a thor projectile has all
of it's mass focused into a very small diameter.
Here's a good example. Take some 1/8th inch thick(or thinner) wood and place
it on blocks so that it's above the ground in the center. Drop a 50 pound,
long slim cylindrical object on it. It'll make a hole in the wood, no
discernable area effect. Then, drop a round, 50 pound rock on the same wood.
The wood will snap in the center, both ends will come up, and the impact area
will have visible cracks radiating outwards. see the difference?

Wolfstar, who doesn't watch Grade-B movies unless I ABSOLUTELY have to. =)

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