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Message no. 1
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: Thoughts on the "new" Stress system?
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:35:39 -0500
At 12:46 AM 11/28/99 -0500, you wrote:
>By now several of us have seen M&M and already there are plenty of opinions
>regarding gear, rules etc.
>
>One thing I haven't seen anyone comment on yet is the Stress system.
>FYI - Essentially this is a reworking of the vehicle Stress system from R2,
>applied to cyberware, bioware, and of more interest to me ... Attributes!

I like it, though I probably won't use it too often... We'll probably use
it mostly only after really Big Bad Fights (tm). Of course, since there's
only one player in the group with any amount of Bio/Cyber... and since
he's a Munchkin?Annoyance that I really can't just get rid of (Long story),
I'm going to enjoy beating the shit out of him and watching him squirm as
he makes stress tests :]

>After all, clonal body aside ... our favorite Orc Decker isn't as young as
>he once was! ;-)

Byte me :] I'm retired :]

Unless of course you want to try and rescue Johnny from the Metapanes...

But dammit, I don;t wanna rework Bull again to take into account the new
stuff! :]


>I also find that the "Called Shot = Auto Wound Effect" optional rule to be
>fantastic! IMO I would rather inflict stress points in most cases than up
>the power of the attack. Unless I really need to put someone down, I'd
>settle for inflicting lasting damage. ;-)

I haven't gotten/noticed that part (I still haven't read the book real
thorough... Just skimmed and looked at the toys)... Could be nice... As
a GM technique, of course... As PC's, who ever goes for Crippling
manuevers? Easier to try and kill the baddies :]

<grin>

Yeah, right :]

Bull -- Who found out how nasty Delta and Cultured Bio could be when cost
wasn't a factor! :] <grin>
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net == bull22@***********.com == bull@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 2
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: Thoughts on the "new" Stress system?
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:26:00 -0500
At 09:06 AM 11/29/99 -0500, you wrote:
> > But dammit, I don;t wanna rework Bull again to take into account the new
> > stuff! :]
>
>I hear you. I still have a series of SR1 characters I haven't gotten around
>to re-working yet.

Actually, Bull's not in that bad of shape... After the "Wendogo Incident",
Bull didn't have a whole lot of Cyber or Bio...

Unfortunately, Mac on the other hand, my Cybermunched Street Sam
<grin>... Well, he's gonna need some serious work or he's looking at some
MAJOR overstress :}

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net == bull22@***********.com == bull@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 3
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: Thoughts on the "new" Stress system?
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 00:46:22 -0500
By now several of us have seen M&M and already there are plenty of opinions
regarding gear, rules etc.

One thing I haven't seen anyone comment on yet is the Stress system.
FYI - Essentially this is a reworking of the vehicle Stress system from R2,
applied to cyberware, bioware, and of more interest to me ... Attributes!

As the OEGM (Original Evil GM) I am anxiously anticipating my players taking
some massive stress points and losing attribute points as fast as possible!
I really like the concept.

"OK you are trying to hold up the collapsing security door while the rest of
the team slides underneath. Want an extra die for that Strength test?" ;-)

Aside from the ability to more accurately portray torn muscles, aching
joints, etc. in SR3, I like that fact that now, even if my players don't
take wounds (which happens all too often with older, established characters)
they are STILL getting hurt!
They may not lose any Attribute points, but a point of stress is enough to
justify some stiff aching muscles, and a twisted ankle.

After all, clonal body aside ... our favorite Orc Decker isn't as young as
he once was! ;-)

I also find that the "Called Shot = Auto Wound Effect" optional rule to be
fantastic! IMO I would rather inflict stress points in most cases than up
the power of the attack. Unless I really need to put someone down, I'd
settle for inflicting lasting damage. ;-)

Any other thoughts on the system?
Anyone find flaws in it? I'm sure it's not perfect, but from what I can seem
it simple to track, and straightforward to handle.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
" This is the work of the demon Finance!" - Crash, Wererhino
Message no. 4
From: 00DNA mcmanus@******.albany.edu
Subject: Thoughts on the "new" Stress system?
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:36:25 -0500
At 12:46 AM 11/28/99 -0500, Steven A. Tinner wrote:


>One thing I haven't seen anyone comment on yet is the Stress system.
>FYI - Essentially this is a reworking of the vehicle Stress system from R2,
>applied to cyberware, bioware, and of more interest to me ... Attributes!
>
>As the OEGM (Original Evil GM) I am anxiously anticipating my players taking
>some massive stress points and losing attribute points as fast as possible!
>I really like the concept.
<snip>
>Any other thoughts on the system?
>Anyone find flaws in it? I'm sure it's not perfect, but from what I can seem
>it simple to track, and straightforward to handle.

Well, I'm going to have to play it out once or twice to get a better idea
of it. It may be simple to track but IMHO it adds a lot more things that
the GM has to keep track of. I can't see using the bioware without using
the Stress system and I like the role-playing that it introduces but I'm
going to hope for the Shadowrun Campaign Studio to keep track of it for me
before I need to use it.



--00DNA

"...connection terminated..."
Message no. 5
From: Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject: Thoughts on the "new" Stress system?
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:21:42 -0600
"Steven A. Tinner" wrote:

> Aside from the ability to more accurately portray torn muscles, aching
> joints, etc. in SR3, I like that fact that now, even if my players don't
> take wounds (which happens all too often with older, established characters)
> they are STILL getting hurt!
> They may not lose any Attribute points, but a point of stress is enough to
> justify some stiff aching muscles, and a twisted ankle.

Looking at the rules on p. 126-127 MM:
"... compare the highest die result rolled to the number of boxes of
damage inflicted by the attack."

To me that means that only after the Damage Resistance Test is rolled
and damaged is staged down are dice compared to the boxes to see if
stress occurred. You seem to be implying that every attack, before it is
staged, is compared. *Ouch* you are going to have some crippled players
in no time. I would think that implants would take damage to a lesser
extent than the body surrounding them. The example is poor because Leggy
did not stage the damage down at all, so the base damage of the attack
and the final wound are the same.

An official ruling would be appreciated in this manner since it is very
vital to the Stress System.

> Any other thoughts on the system?
> Anyone find flaws in it? I'm sure it's not perfect, but from what I can seem
> it simple to track, and straightforward to handle.

Before I get too far into a rant, I should say that I am going to try
the Stress System before passing final judgement, however...

An experienced player in my current campaign had this to say about the
Stress System:
"Hey everyone! Let's play Woundstress! I shoot you and we spend twenty
minutes rolling dice and reading tables to see if it did a lot of extra
stuff to you. Why? Because being shot isn't quite bad enough already!
Come on, gang, let's do it! Woo-hoo!"

My brain almost exploded reading all of the extra rules that the Stress
System wants you to incorporate into the standard damage resolution
stage. This isn't Living Steel people, where we need to roll for muscle
tearing, hydrostatic shock, and tumbling just because someone got shot.
I get the impression that the system is way too complicated, but that it
was only a revision or two away from being more streamlined and more
easily incorporated into the game.

Can any one actually imagine doing this for a standard 3-5 Combat Turn
fight with five PCs, most cybered and a bunch of minorly cybered
security guards? I think it'd add at least a couple minutes to every
damage resolution, especially considered the thugs with Boosted [1] and
Smartlink.

As I said, I'm going to try it out and try to get the feel for it. As a
recent poster said, you really can't use Bioware without incorporating
Stress in some manner, so it's eaither this or some major house rules.
Perhaps adding all these table to my GM screen will speed things up.
Luckily the next two sessions have smaller groups of players. I'll give
a status report in a week or so to either repent my doubtful ways or
lambast the Stress System yet again.
Message no. 6
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: Thoughts on the "new" Stress system?
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 12:32:15 -0500
>Looking at the rules on p. 126-127 MM:
>"... compare the highest die result rolled to the number of boxes of
>damage inflicted by the attack."
>
>To me that means that only after the Damage Resistance Test is rolled
>and damaged is staged down are dice compared to the boxes to see if
>stress occurred. You seem to be implying that every attack, before it is
>staged, is compared. *Ouch* you are going to have some crippled players
>in no time. I would think that implants would take damage to a lesser
>extent than the body surrounding them. The example is poor because Leggy
>did not stage the damage down at all, so the base damage of the attack
>and the final wound are the same.
>
>An official ruling would be appreciated in this manner since it is very
>vital to the Stress System.

I meant to say that this is in regard to the optional rule stating that
called shots allow for automatic Wound Effects rather than than upping the
power of the attack.
Sorry - should have clarified that.

Normally, the way you stated it is correct.
The wound effects/stress are only automatic on a called shot.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
" This is the work of the demon Finance!" - Crash, Wererhino
Message no. 7
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Thoughts on the "new" Stress system?
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 12:03:34 -0600
> One thing I haven't seen anyone comment on yet is the Stress system.

I think portions of it are a little harsh, and commented to that effect in
my playtesting notes. It struck me as over-compensation for years of not
having worthwhile stress rules laid down in SHADOWTECH.

> As the OEGM (Original Evil GM) I am anxiously anticipating my players
> taking some massive stress points and losing attribute points as fast as
> possible! I really like the concept.

Oh, I love the concept, and my players are looking at me nervously now that
the book is out and they can see what I was cackling about with the playtest
group.

But I still think some of the stuff is a little *too* hard on the
players...and I'm saying that as a GM (though, admittedly, probably not an
Evil GM{TM}). As a player, I'm more than a little nervous about the whole
thing.

> I also find that the "Called Shot = Auto Wound Effect" optional rule to
> be fantastic!

Now this I did like. I also like the bit about using a called shot to
either up the power or bypass armor, which legitimizes a lot of house rules
out there and might end some conflict around tables.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 8
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Thoughts on the "new" Stress system?
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:20:54 -0600
:An official ruling would be appreciated in this manner since it is very
:vital to the Stress System.

The comparison is (intended to be) made AFTER final staging (down or up).
You compare the highest single die result to the net boxes of dage- a number
of wound effects equal to the excess boxes are assigned per the rules on
etermining wound effects. This is the only time stress is normally caused
by injury.

[GM's can still just choose to inflict appropriate stress whever you feel it
is needed to reflect environmental health hazards, bodily strain, poor
maintance, et cetera, if they are feeling evil.]

No damage = no chance of wound induced stress, so once you make that (fairly
simple) comparison and see you are safe, no extra paperwork / dice rolling /
time is required.

:Can any one actually imagine doing this for a standard 3-5 Combat Turn
:fight with five PCs, most cybered and a bunch of minorly cybered
:security guards? I think it'd add at least a couple minutes to every
:damage resolution, especially considered the thugs with Boosted [1] and
:Smartlink.

As noted above, there is no stress (wound effect) if there is a
decent result on just one die from the DR roll, and since there is no stress
to figure, there won't be any further work to do. I can't see how comparing
those two numbers and seeing which is higher will take a couple minutes.

The problem we noticed in playtesting was that people don't care what the
highest result on thier DR test was, and pick up the dice as soon as they
have counted the successes. Figure out your boxes of damage BEFORE picking
up the dice, and you should do fine, with a minimum of extra work.

:Perhaps adding all these table to my GM screen will speed things up.

You can do that, but I'll bet you rarely use them (not nearly as much as
the other tables, at least). The most frequently needed tables (p. 126 and
p. 127) should be easy to "memorize", anyhow.
It will help to construct "essence / bioware slot" charts for characters
who have implants. Those should, IMO, go on the characters record sheets,
as they are the ideal place to record any eventual stress, and don't take up
much space.

:Luckily the next two sessions have smaller groups of players. I'll give
:a status report in a week or so to either repent my doubtful ways or
:lambast the Stress System yet again.

Please do, either way. The biggest fault in the system (and this is a
pretty major one, apparently) is that people expect it to be make every
damage resistance test a nightmare of calculation, when in fact the number
of wound effects that are seen in play are quite low (barring, perhaps, the
optional rule for called shots). If the rules are unclear, perhaps a step
by step "flowchart" (as done for attacks / damage resistance) would help
some?

Mongoose
Message no. 9
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Thoughts on the "new" Stress system?
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:06:38 -0500
> But dammit, I don;t wanna rework Bull again to take into account the new
> stuff! :]

I hear you. I still have a series of SR1 characters I haven't gotten around
to re-working yet.
___________________________________
I told you this morality of mine would kill us all.
Message no. 10
From: Spike spike1@*******.co.uk
Subject: Thoughts on the "new" Stress system?
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:27:59 +0000 (GMT)
And verily, didst Bull babble thusly:
> At 09:06 AM 11/29/99 -0500, you wrote:
> > > But dammit, I don;t wanna rework Bull again to take into account the new
> > > stuff! :]
> >
> >I hear you. I still have a series of SR1 characters I haven't gotten around
> >to re-working yet.
>
> Actually, Bull's not in that bad of shape... After the "Wendogo Incident",

> Bull didn't have a whole lot of Cyber or Bio...

I think I missed this... I thought Bull was still grey and fluffy...
:)
How did he get re-orkified?

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