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Message no. 1
From: Danyel N Woods <9604801@********.AC.NZ>
Subject: Threat warning systems (kinda long) [was re: Sniping in SR]
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:15:42 +1200
I did a lot of research on this sort of thing, to support an attempt to
write a novel which I have had to suspend due to an over-abundance of
school-work :-( , and now consider myself fairly knowledgeable. You
jokers might disagree, of course, but here it is, all FYI...

<professor>
Electronic Support Measures (ESM) is a semi-meaningless term which
encompasses all the threat-warning systems on an aircraft (and more
recently, tanks and AFVs). These systems register and analyse any and
all radar emissions which come into contact with their parent craft.
Based on the system's transmission frequency, waveform, pulse-width,
pulse-repetition-frequency, power, and a host of other factors, an ESM
system can classify a radar down to a particular system and operating
mode - search, tracking, 'illumination' (missile-guidance),
what-have-you. (For example, a ground-based F-band monopulse radar
might be identified as the locked-on 'Fire Dome' fire-control radar of a
Russian-made SA-11 'Gadfly' surface-to-air missile system - *very* bad
news to a 199X fighter pilot.) Some systems on specialised aircraft can
even tell the ESM operator when the radar was last serviced, and what
parts it had replaced, based on the transmission data.

Laser rangefinders and designators are not commonly used in air-to-air
combat, for a number of reasons, primarily range limitations, the
relative youth of sufficiently small LDs, the proven reliability of
radar and infra-red systems, and the fact that LD systems are
'semi-active'. This last (for those who don't know) means that the
pilot has to hold a steady course, to keep the designator painting the
target, for his weapon to guide properly. Such a straight-line practice
is not conducive to long life in aerial combat.
This having been said, some missiles use lasers for their proximity
fuses, and there is the semi-humourous Gulf War example of an Iraqi
'Hind' gunship being shot down by a laser-guided bomb(!) from an A-10
(though this was an isolated occurrence; the gunship was in a relatively
stationary hover, and the A-10 didn't have to worry much about getting
shot down).
</professor>

In Shadowrun, I would expect that most aircraft and combat vehicles
would have a full threat-warning suite, including radar-receivers with
incredibly extensive detection capabilities and threat libraries,
passive infra-red sensors (to detect the heat-flare of a missile's
rocket motor), and passive optical (to detect lasers - maybe even
Erik's(?) ruthenium detector/defeater, though it seems a little
expensive). (I assume this is covered in R2's ECM/ECCM section. In how
much detail?)

Anyone with more detailed (or even first-hand) knowledge of this -
especially any ex- or current military types - please feel free to
correct me or fill in any gaps.

Danyel Woods
9604801@********.ac.nz
'Are you deliberately trying to drive me insane?'
'The universe is already mad. Anything else would be
redundant.'
Message no. 2
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Threat warning systems (kinda long) [was re: Sniping in SR]
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 21:11:17 EDT
In a message dated 6/5/98 12:19:17 AM !!!First Boot!!!, 9604801@********.AC.NZ
writes:

> In Shadowrun, I would expect that most aircraft and combat vehicles
> would have a full threat-warning suite, including radar-receivers with
> incredibly extensive detection capabilities and threat libraries,
> passive infra-red sensors (to detect the heat-flare of a missile's
> rocket motor), and passive optical (to detect lasers - maybe even
> Erik's(?) ruthenium detector/defeater, though it seems a little
> expensive). (I assume this is covered in R2's ECM/ECCM section. In how
> much detail?)
>

Perhaps when a vehicle's normal Sensors are put on passive mode instead of
active mode could the sensors then become like ESM ? Or would you like to
give us some sort of chart on what you think ESM sensors would cost and the
like ...

Mike
Message no. 3
From: Danyel N Woods <9604801@********.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Threat warning systems (kinda long) [was re: Sniping in SR]
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 13:47:08 +1200
Quoth Mike Bobroff (1311 05-06-98 NZT):

>> In Shadowrun, I would expect that most aircraft and combat vehicles
>> would have a full threat-warning suite, including radar-receivers
with
>> incredibly extensive detection capabilities and threat libraries,
>> passive infra-red sensors (to detect the heat-flare of a missile's
>> rocket motor), and passive optical (to detect lasers - maybe even
>> Erik's(?) ruthenium detector/defeater, though it seems a little
>> expensive). (I assume this is covered in R2's ECM/ECCM section. In
how
>> much detail?)
>>
>
>Perhaps when a vehicle's normal Sensors are put on passive mode instead
of
>active mode could the sensors then become like ESM ? Or would you like
to
>give us some sort of chart on what you think ESM sensors would cost and
the
>like ...

Based on the 'Some R2 Questions...' thread I just found (my mailbox is
jammed full), I think we've both been looking at the same thing: you've
been covering the SR mechanics, while I've given today's realities.

I don't think putting your own sensors into passive mode would work.
Your sensors are set up to read their own returning signals; anybody
else's would register as interference/jamming. Your table and Gurth's
mechanics under the 'Some R2 Questions' thread-heading look fair enough,
though as a role-playing tip, I think you might want to add something
about the type of sensors tracking you. (e.g. jet back-seater screams
to his pilot: "Aw, drek. ESM is picking up 'Grand Slam' G-band tracking
radar - there's a battery of SA-37 SAMs after us! They're shifting to
high PRF, going for a missile lock! Deploying countermeasures!" (and so
forth).)

But do note: ESM, being a passive system itself, works against ACTIVE
SYSTEMS ONLY, so if they are tracking you via *passive* systems (your
radar/ECM is emitting (their own ESM), they've picked up your engine
heat (passive IR), etc), you're meat on the table.

(All AFAIK.)

Danyel Woods
9604801@********.ac.nz
'Are you deliberately trying to drive me insane?'
'The universe is already mad. Anything else would be
redundant.'
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Threat warning systems (kinda long) [was re: Sniping in SR]
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:19:03 +0100
Danyel N Woods said on 12:15/5 Jun 98,...

> This having been said, some missiles use lasers for their proximity
> fuses, and there is the semi-humourous Gulf War example of an Iraqi
> 'Hind' gunship being shot down by a laser-guided bomb(!) from an A-10
> (though this was an isolated occurrence; the gunship was in a relatively
> stationary hover, and the A-10 didn't have to worry much about getting
> shot down).

I thought it was an Mi-26 Halo and an F-15E Strike Eagle? Or is
the A-10 incident one I hadn't heard of before?

> </professor>
>
> In Shadowrun, I would expect that most aircraft and combat vehicles
> would have a full threat-warning suite, including radar-receivers with
> incredibly extensive detection capabilities and threat libraries,
> passive infra-red sensors (to detect the heat-flare of a missile's
> rocket motor), and passive optical (to detect lasers - maybe even
> Erik's(?) ruthenium detector/defeater, though it seems a little
> expensive). (I assume this is covered in R2's ECM/ECCM section. In how
> much detail?)

David came up with the ruthenium polymer idea, and something
just occurred to me: I don't think it would work. RP works by
setting up cameras to take a picture and project it on the RP on
the other side -- for example, a vehicle with RP would have a
camera (preferably more than one) on the left side to project a
picture on the right side. The polymers themselves aren't
detectors.

This means the camera on the RP suit (or whatever) should pick
up the laser, and then direct the suit to black out the area
illuminated by the laser. Which also won't work, because the laser
spot is something that can't be controlled by the RP suit --
compare it to shining a laser pointer at a movie screen: you see a
red dot regardless of the color changes on the screen itself. The
only thing the suit could do to counter the pointer, I think, is to
make the whole suit the same color as the laser spot, and that
would likely only enlarge the target area for the laser-guided
munition.

All, of course, provided the spot can be detected.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- + --+--
Version 3.1: | Incubated into
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N | the First Church of
o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ | the Sqooshy Ball
tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y? | 21 May 1998
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ + --+--
Message no. 5
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Threat warning systems (kinda long) [was re: Sniping in SR]
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:01:47 EDT
In a message dated 6/5/98 1:53:27 AM !!!First Boot!!!, 9604801@********.AC.NZ
writes:

> Based on the 'Some R2 Questions...' thread I just found (my mailbox is
> jammed full), I think we've both been looking at the same thing: you've
> been covering the SR mechanics, while I've given today's realities.

Yes, and thank you for the RL input ...

> I don't think putting your own sensors into passive mode would work.
> Your sensors are set up to read their own returning signals; anybody
> else's would register as interference/jamming. Your table and Gurth's
> mechanics under the 'Some R2 Questions' thread-heading look fair enough,
> though as a role-playing tip, I think you might want to add something
> about the type of sensors tracking you. (e.g. jet back-seater screams
> to his pilot: "Aw, drek. ESM is picking up 'Grand Slam' G-band tracking
> radar - there's a battery of SA-37 SAMs after us! They're shifting to
> high PRF, going for a missile lock! Deploying countermeasures!" (and so
> forth).)

Okay ... I can buy that ... but as for the excessive detail ... I'd leave that
up to the GM to tell the rigger just how fragged up he/she/it is ...

Like in one game a week ago, I told one of the guys who was rigging that their
Autonav/Pilot/Whatever was opening a small (50 gallon) vial of KY as they were
being shot at by something pretty big ...

> But do note: ESM, being a passive system itself, works against ACTIVE
> SYSTEMS ONLY, so if they are tracking you via *passive* systems (your
> radar/ECM is emitting (their own ESM), they've picked up your engine
> heat (passive IR), etc), you're meat on the table.

Hmmm ... I've thought of some potential countermeasures .. both magical and
not ...

1. An Ice Sheet spell placed directly behind the a vehicle would temporarily
cause an IR tracker to have problem locking in on the vehicle. And you could
use the rules for perception through a mana barrier as making targeting mods
with using IR go up by half the force of the spell ...

2. Another spell would be placing Chaos World immediately behind the vehicle
... could provide the same modifiers.

3. A tech option ... a sudden dumping of some cold water into the exhaust of
a jet engine could also increase the target numbers of the locking sensors
also.

What do you guys think?

-Mike
Message no. 6
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Threat warning systems (kinda long) [was re: Sniping in SR]
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:15:57 -0400
> 1. An Ice Sheet spell placed directly behind the a vehicle would
> temporarily
> cause an IR tracker to have problem locking in on the vehicle. And
> you could
> use the rules for perception through a mana barrier as making
> targeting mods
> with using IR go up by half the force of the spell ...
>
> 2. Another spell would be placing Chaos World immediately behind the
> vehicle
> ... could provide the same modifiers.
>
>
I really don't think there would be a whole ton of time
to pull something like this off, but in a pinch, I'd try it.

> 3. A tech option ... a sudden dumping of some cold water into the
> exhaust of
> a jet engine could also increase the target numbers of the locking
> sensors
> also.

This would be bad in a big way. Cold water on jet
engines (operating in the thousands of degrees range) would literally
shatter the steel of the exhausts.
Message no. 7
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Threat warning systems (kinda long) [was re: Sniping in SR]
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 23:39:12 EDT
In a message dated 6/5/98 9:02:52 AM US Eastern Standard Time, Airwasp@***.COM
writes:

> Hmmm ... I've thought of some potential countermeasures .. both magical and
> not ...
>
> 1. An Ice Sheet spell placed directly behind the a vehicle would
> temporarily
> cause an IR tracker to have problem locking in on the vehicle. And you
> could
> use the rules for perception through a mana barrier as making targeting
mods
> with using IR go up by half the force of the spell ...

That ain't such a bad thing, though the target numbers should be altered IMO
due to speed of the vehicles and stuff.

> 2. Another spell would be placing Chaos World immediately behind the
> vehicle
> ... could provide the same modifiers.

I'm not sure if that would work. The spells have a "centered" AoE, usually a
given target. For some reason, this seems like the "What's the Target for
Air?" thread from a ways back.

> 3. A tech option ... a sudden dumping of some cold water into the exhaust
> of
> a jet engine could also increase the target numbers of the locking sensors
> also.

Hm....an interesting thought. Alternate the spell "Freeze Water" into
"Chill
Air". It would create a region of particularly cold air that a vehicle would
pass through abruptly, and for a while (depending on speed and what-ever-else)
become more visible to many forms of Sensors.

> What do you guys think?

See Above.
=K
Message no. 8
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Threat warning systems (kinda long) [was re: Sniping in SR]
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 23:53:07 EDT
In a message dated 6/5/98 4:18:18 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
bryan.covington@****.COM writes:

> > 3. A tech option ... a sudden dumping of some cold water into the
> > exhaust of
> > a jet engine could also increase the target numbers of the locking
> > sensors
> > also.
>
> This would be bad in a big way. Cold water on jet
> engines (operating in the thousands of degrees range) would literally
> shatter the steel of the exhausts.
>
And -IF- the vehicle in question is pursuing you, is this necessarily a bad
thing? :P

Seriously though, I don't see it as being that is. Jet's fly around in snow
and ice storms now, and the problems they have are rarely (I've never heard of
such a thing happening) "having the engine turbines shatter".

Now if a -targetted- volume of ice/cold water could be directed into the
intake, I see it causing problems, just not -quite- what you are suggesting.

=K
Message no. 9
From: Mark Ellis <oronis@*********.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Threat warning systems (kinda long) [was re: Sniping in SR]
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 20:27:21 +0100
David came up with the ruthenium polymer idea, and something
just occurred to me: I don't think it would work. RP works by
setting up cameras to take a picture and project it on the RP on
the other side -- for example, a vehicle with RP would have a
camera (preferably more than one) on the left side to project a
picture on the right side. The polymers themselves aren't
detectors.
Gurth@******.nl

================================================

Can do actually. RP is a variation on the stuff used in optical chips, so in
a 'laser detection suit' the computer would constantly 'read' the state of
the RP using a light frequency that didn't change its state ie.colour.
Illumination by a laser would change the RP state and be detected. Drawback
is that the laser would have to be a frequency that did change the polymers
state. Would bring up whole new worlds of choices about what to wear in the
morning. "Hmm, which assassin do I think is after me today, blue or red" :)

Mark
'Who is the more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him ?'
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Threat warning systems (kinda long) [was re: Sniping in SR]
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:31:33 +0100
Mark Ellis said on 20:27/6 Jun 98,...

> Can do actually. RP is a variation on the stuff used in optical chips

Where did you get that? It doesn't say so in the description of the
stuff in Shadowtech, matter of fact it says that RP change color
through voltage changes, while optical chips are basically
red/green transistors whose state is changed by applying light.
Not quite the same, if you ask me.

> so in
> a 'laser detection suit' the computer would constantly 'read' the state of
> the RP using a light frequency that didn't change its state ie.colour.

Two things I'm wondering about: 1) why would light change the
voltage of the RP (unless it's a photoelectric compound perhaps,
but that makes little sense to me); and 2) why does the
computer need to read the screen? All it needs to do is _output_
to it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Threat warning systems (kinda long) [was re: Sniping in SR]
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:44:23 EDT
In a message dated 6/7/98 6:31:26 AM US Eastern Standard Time, gurth@******.NL
writes:

> Two things I'm wondering about: 1) why would light change the
> voltage of the RP (unless it's a photoelectric compound perhaps,
> but that makes little sense to me); and 2) why does the
> computer need to read the screen? All it needs to do is _output_
> to it.
>
Gurth, I'm ashamed of you. Why on earth can't the technology applied to a
cyberdeck include touch-interactive screens. It needs to map and locate the
entire screen possibly for the entire actions that the decker could use.
Hell, this would even allow for a "decker" to merge his/her keyboard and his
"Display Unit" into the same object.

-K
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Threat warning systems (kinda long) [was re: Sniping in SR]
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:04:46 +0100
K is the Symbol said on 14:44/7 Jun 98,...

> Gurth, I'm ashamed of you. Why on earth can't the technology applied to a
> cyberdeck include touch-interactive screens. It needs to map and locate the
> entire screen possibly for the entire actions that the decker could use.
> Hell, this would even allow for a "decker" to merge his/her keyboard and
his
> "Display Unit" into the same object.

I admit I forgot about touch-screens, but that still doesn't explain
why a computer would be monitoring light falling onto the
screen... IMHO the most useful thing it could do with this kind of
tech when it comes to snipers, is to register the impact point of
the bullet. By which time, of course, it's too late :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Threat warning systems (kinda long) [was re: Sniping in SR]
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:59:10 EDT
In a message dated 6/8/98 6:12:31 AM US Eastern Standard Time, gurth@******.NL
writes:

> > Gurth, I'm ashamed of you. Why on earth can't the technology applied to a
> > cyberdeck include touch-interactive screens. It needs to map and locate
> the
> > entire screen possibly for the entire actions that the decker could use.
> > Hell, this would even allow for a "decker" to merge his/her keyboard
and
> his
> > "Display Unit" into the same object.
>
> I admit I forgot about touch-screens, but that still doesn't explain
> why a computer would be monitoring light falling onto the
> screen... IMHO the most useful thing it could do with this kind of
> tech when it comes to snipers, is to register the impact point of
> the bullet. By which time, of course, it's too late :)
>
Ah, so the idea of hiding an "Optical Datajack Interface" inside the
monitor/display screen has also slipped your mind? The individual merely
tracks the "active set of the screen", which s/he knows to look for within a
given image.

Walks around a monitor on the street, gives his report to home office, and
barely stops moving at all.

And NO ONE is the wiser....

-K
Message no. 14
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Threat warning systems (kinda long) [was re: Sniping in SR]
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:51:33 -0600
Gurth wrote:
/
/ David came up with the ruthenium polymer idea, and something
/ just occurred to me: I don't think it would work. RP works by
/ setting up cameras to take a picture and project it on the RP on
/ the other side -- for example, a vehicle with RP would have a
/ camera (preferably more than one) on the left side to project a
/ picture on the right side. The polymers themselves aren't
/ detectors.

Sorry, my fault. For some reason I thought ruthenium was a fiber-optic
system, not a color changing electro-chemical reaction.

<Rosana Rosanadana>

Never mind.

</Rosana Rosanadana>

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

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