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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Throwing Bullets
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 02:10:46 +1100
Firepower writes:

> Two, I will admit that the idea of throwing with the highly augmented
> has merit. However, remember that the strength of the person
> controls the amount of damage. Speed doesn't seem to enter into the
> equasion--I'm not sure why. Damian? (correction--it does control
> how often someone can throw the object in question.)

Is that a prompt for me to make a comment? Or is it something else or
someone else? Ah well, not to worry, I was gunna say something anyhow, so it
doesn't matter. JDs idea specified someone with boosted reflexes, I would be
more inclined to say that a higher strength would be more useful, sinse then
you could impart a larger force to the projectile. Hmm, I need Adam here,
but I'll have a go at something which just popped into my head (too much
physics study). If you threw it really really fast, so that all the force
you put into it went into it in a really short time, would it actually make
any difference to the damage at the receiving end? Let me see... (I really
need some physics geek to correct me here), but I woulda said no. If I've
assumed corectly (and probably not), then the speed of the projectile, while
it very much so controls the damage, the speed itself is controlled by the
throwers strength. But think about it, if we were to include the speed in
the damage equation, we'd end up with an equation much like the one we
designed for shoulder charging someone a few weeks ago - one which no idiot
(barring rules lawyers) would ever use due to its hideous complexity and
overall unplayablility. Keep it simple I say and stick with Str.

> Three, The actual mass of the thrown object seems to be a major
> criteria also--the combination of mass and inertia is what makes an
> object effective. I guess that the best idea for working out some sort
> of stats would be to use the thrown weapons chart as a base.

And don't forget the sharp points, and the grip on the handle, and the
location it strikes the target, and so on. The overriding factor is the
users skill, anything else becomes relatively minor. But, yeah, basing
anything on the current SR weapons chart should work, and it should keep the
sacred _Game_Balance_ and the useful Simplicity in place.

> But what kind of damage a troll does when he throws your new
> Yamaha at you I don't know.

StrS Stun? :-) I dunno, lots I say.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 2
From: Malcalypse The Younger <shadow@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Throwing Bullets
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 23:26:33 -0500
On Sat, 5 Nov 1994, Damion Milliken wrote:

> > But what kind of damage a troll does when he throws your new
> > Yamaha at you I don't know.
>
> StrS Stun? :-) I dunno, lots I say.
>

I actually did this in a vampire game once...

What about hitting someone in the gut with an Uzi in hand, then pulling
the trigger (full auto or semi-auto)?

Shadow
Message no. 3
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Throwing Bullets
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 18:30:57 +1100
Shadow writes:

> What about hitting someone in the gut with an Uzi in hand, then pulling
> the trigger (full auto or semi-auto)?

I don't think you'd ever get the chance. Your opponent would have to be
standing still, and I couldn't see that happening in melee combat. Yuo could
hit them with the weapon (use club stats or something) or you could shoot
them, but unless you surprised them I don't think you'd be doing both.
[Anyway, with the SR combat system it's impossible. You'd need a complex
action to hit them with a melee attack, then you'd have to wait till next
action to shoot. By that time they be moved for sure. Even if they didn't
have an action in between, people do not stay perfectly stationary during a
combat; your aim would be spoilt.]

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 4
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Throwing Bullets
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 12:31:35 -0800
On Sat, 5 Nov 1994, Damion Milliken wrote:

> physics study). If you threw it really really fast, so that all the force
> you put into it went into it in a really short time, would it actually make
> any difference to the damage at the receiving end? Let me see... (I really
> need some physics geek to correct me here), but I woulda said no. If I've

It actually does matter, for reasons of energy transference and
penetration. Steel can has a compressive stress rating of, let's say 20
MPascals (since I don't remember the numbers offhand). Now, Newton's
second law can be stated as: F = dp/dt where p is momentum and
d/dt is the time derivative of same. Rearranging this gives us the
Impulse equation of dp = F * dt, which can be approximated by finite
limits to delta p = F times delta t. Now, since the momentum transfer is
constant for the bullet as long as the product of mass and velocity is
constant, we can see that F increases as time decreases. Increasing
velocity will shorten the impact interaction time, and so leads to
increased force, which distributed over the surface area of the bullet
leads to increased pressure. This in turn may exceed the compressive
stress of the material, thus penetrating it.
Now, this analysis is somewhat simplistic and energy density and
velocity are not the only determinants in armor penetration, but I hope
it illustrates the point that high kinetic energy is better.

> assumed corectly (and probably not), then the speed of the projectile, while
> it very much so controls the damage, the speed itself is controlled by the
> throwers strength. But think about it, if we were to include the speed in
> the damage equation, we'd end up with an equation much like the one we
> designed for shoulder charging someone a few weeks ago - one which no idiot
> (barring rules lawyers) would ever use due to its hideous complexity and
> overall unplayablility. Keep it simple I say and stick with Str.
>
> > Three, The actual mass of the thrown object seems to be a major
> > criteria also--the combination of mass and inertia is what makes an
> > object effective. I guess that the best idea for working out some sort
> > of stats would be to use the thrown weapons chart as a base.
>
> And don't forget the sharp points, and the grip on the handle, and the
> location it strikes the target, and so on. The overriding factor is the
> users skill, anything else becomes relatively minor. But, yeah, basing
> anything on the current SR weapons chart should work, and it should keep the
> sacred _Game_Balance_ and the useful Simplicity in place.
>
> > But what kind of damage a troll does when he throws your new
> > Yamaha at you I don't know.
>
> StrS Stun? :-) I dunno, lots I say.
>
> --
> Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au
>
> (GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
> N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
> B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
>

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 5
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Throwing Bullets
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 13:35:12 +1100
Adam writes:

[Big, Physics Geek explanation of how and why a faster bullet does more
damage]

About time you answered my plea. I've almost forgotten what it was about. :-)

Yep, I get all that, but I don't think it quite answered what I asked. I was
wanting to know if throwing something really quickly (like a flick of the
wrist) as opposed to giving it a lengthy hurl (like pulling ones arm back
and moving it all the way forward before releasing the projectile) would be
of any advantage. Now I can see that if you were applying the same force for
the whole time of both throws that the longer one would be superior, but I
want to know would the total effect be the same when one took into account
the fact that the forces applied would probably vary too? ie would the
forces you applied to the projectile vary so much so that they overall
momentum gain was about the same, regardless of whether you took a long
throw or a quick one? Now, if that makes any sense at all, I'll tell you
what it was in reference to. If I have strength of, say 5, and am not wired,
then I can throw a projectile with momentum x. Now, what kind of momentum
would I throw a projectile with if I went out and got wired three? I can do
the throwing action much faster, but would the force I applied still be the
same? 'Cause if it was, then the momentum gain would be less, and hence the
projectile would be slower. Somehow I don't think this is the case. So,
would throwing it quicker give it more, less, or roughly the same momentum?
I know this isn't quite a physics question, it has more to do with the
physiology of the human arm, but hey, you might be able to answer it. :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 6
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Throwing Bullets
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 15:34:09 +1100
Damion, I believe that with wired reflexes you _can't_ throw
it any faster. You can throw it _sooner_, though.

luke

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