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Message no. 1
From: Gorbi <gbmaill@***.DE>
Subject: Timeline Question
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:09:16 +0100
Hi all,

maybe this has been discussed earlier but I've read the bokk "Worlds Without
End" (again) and the following question came to my mind:
Where ARE the demons that the blood magic of Aina summoned? The Azzies are
practising blood magic too. Why isn' t the world plagued by horrifying
creatures? Or are they all stopped by the works of "Leonardo" (I think there
was a thread about him not being an immortal Elf)?
Is there any official statement from FASA?

Gorbi
Message no. 2
From: David Lightfinger <lightfinger@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:41:12 -0600
Gorbi wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> maybe this has been discussed earlier but I've read the bokk "Worlds Without
> End" (again) and the following question came to my mind:
> Where ARE the demons that the blood magic of Aina summoned? The Azzies are
> practising blood magic too. Why isn' t the world plagued by horrifying
> creatures? Or are they all stopped by the works of "Leonardo" (I think
there
> was a thread about him not being an immortal Elf)?
> Is there any official statement from FASA?

You need to read the Jak Koke trilogy, especially the last book Beyond
the Pale, for this information. Also, check out the adventure
Harlequin's Back.

Spoiler space in case you don't want the answer...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
The Horrors were about to come over into the world, but were prevented
in Beyond the Pale. A few made it across, though. More detail about the
Horrors and what everything means is found in the Earthdawn game by
FASA.

The immortal elves knew what was going to happen, and a certain few
(Aina, Harlequin) and a certain dragon (Dunkelzahn) actively acted
against the Horrors, while the rest of the elves were seemingly going to
go to cairn once again, ala Earthdawn, instead of trying to prevent the
Horrors from returning.

So, to answer your question, there are a few of the beasties running
amok, but for now their bridge to our realm does not exist, so you won't
be seeing a massive invasion from the Horrors for a long
time...hopefully. :-)

--David

ps. All of this started, thanks to a man named Howling Coyote and this
little dance he and his followers performed...
Message no. 3
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 21:38:25 EST
All of what follows is IMO, so please remember that when you read it...


In a message dated 12/10/1998 4:11:15 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
gbmaill@***.DE writes:

> maybe this has been discussed earlier but I've read the bokk "Worlds
Without
> End" (again) and the following question came to my mind:
> Where ARE the demons that the blood magic of Aina summoned? The Azzies are
> practising blood magic too. Why isn' t the world plagued by horrifying
> creatures? Or are they all stopped by the works of "Leonardo" (I think
there
> was a thread about him not being an immortal Elf)?
> Is there any official statement from FASA?

1) The world has it's share of demons/horrors from the books, up to and
including the stuff put forward in the Aztlan Sourcebook and Harlequin's Back.
Those beings are *here* somewhere, but they are in hiding. And with due
justice. Not all of the remaining powers from the last age (immortal elves,
Greater Dracoforms) would look likely at the beings coming around so quickly.

2) In the Dragonheart Trilogy (Spoiler's be damned), the question of the
"Horrors" is taken care of to some extent. But, as Mike Mulhillvil and Jak
Koke have both said (summarizing and paraphrasing here), that there are
probably a *few* that could have managed to sneak across to "our world", but
without their connections and resources from "their world", they are not going
to be as powerful or as common as was originally happening in the SR Universe.
Basically, the trilogy left it just open enough for a GM to say "this is one
of the remaining Horrors" that have escaped.

3) That last line brings us to this point. The remaining ones that did
escape had witnesses. Harley, Aina, Frost, Talon, and Ryan all witnessed what
happened, and no doubt have concurrent beliefs of their own formulating
appropriately. Aina especially, given her personal background. I could see
some very quiet, very subversive, actions going on deep, and I do mean DEEP,
in the shadows of the world where certain forces are striving to finish
stamping the nasties out once and for all.

4) A relic remains in the SR Universe (possibly) that could be used to reopen
the entire mess. Of course I am speaking of "the Bottle", from "Bottled
Demon". I know that supposedly there was intentions to reintroduce the Bottle
and it's background resources into SR. But, with the exchanging of managers
(aka; Line Developers), this entire thread has been altered, or at the very
least put aside for the time being.

5) Because of ED and SR's not-quit-compatible game mechanics, it is very easy
for groups/individuals to say "this mage is more powerful than that one" or
"that adept is more capable than that one". Truth is, IMO, maleable at best.
I think that beings, such as the Wraith in Shadowrun (seeing as how this topic
came up so recently) are in fact "Horrors". And, as far as SR is concerned,
AS BAD AS THEY NEED TO BE! By all that is game mighty, those things are
possibly the ultimate little thing to run into and are more than capable of
trashing whole parties with little or no major effort put into them. I know
that the first major Wraith encounter I ever ran, the entire party went into
Major Wupp-ASS Mode just to stay alive and keep all of them's head's clear
enough to function.

And that doesn't count beings like the Corpselight, Nomad, the collective
Entity (the Wild Hunt).

Sorry I've slipped off the original topic, but this is just one of those "old
sore spots" for me.

-K
Message no. 4
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:23:53 -0800
> ps. All of this started, thanks to a man named Howling Coyote and this
> little dance he and his followers performed...
>
Yeah, but if it wasn't for him, we all wouldn't have this cool game system to play. ;)

-=Toffer=-
Message no. 5
From: Gorbi <gbmaill@***.DE>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:20:26 +0100
Davidson, Chris <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM> wrote:


>> ps. All of this started, thanks to a man named Howling Coyote and this
>> little dance he and his followers performed...
>>
>Yeah, but if it wasn't for him, we all wouldn't have this cool game system
to play. ;)


Wait! Did the dance start the "sixth world"? Aren't you mixing cause and
effect? The great dragon Ryomo (sp?) appeared at the same time Howling
Coyote started the dance. I thought the beginning of the sixth world was the
cause for Coyote's magic working. Otherwise the magic would have worked at
the Battle of the Wounded Knee when the indians had their first dance.
Anyway, Howling Coyote must have known when to start the dance and that
implies the question where he got THAT knowledge from.

Gorbi
Message no. 6
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:10:12 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:20 PM 12/12/98 +0100, Gorbi wrote:
>>> ps. All of this started, thanks to a man named Howling Coyote and
this
>>> little dance he and his followers performed...
<<snip>>
>Wait! Did the dance start the "sixth world"? Aren't you mixing cause
and
>effect? The great dragon Ryomo (sp?) appeared at the same time
Howling
>Coyote started the dance. I thought the beginning of the sixth world
was the
>cause for Coyote's magic working. Otherwise the magic would have
worked at
>the Battle of the Wounded Knee when the indians had their first
dance.
>Anyway, Howling Coyote must have known when to start the dance and
that
>implies the question where he got THAT knowledge from.

It's not so much that the Great Ghost Dance brought about the return
of magic. That would have happened either way. What has been proposed
is that the power of the GGD brought magic back in the world faster
than it would have apeared on it's own. Imagine the magic cycle as a
door. The date the sixth world started was when the door was
unlatched. Left to itself, the unlatched door would swing open on it's
own. The GGD gave the door a push, making it swing open a little
faster.

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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 7
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:08:24 EST
In a message dated 12/12/98 3:40:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
RunnerPaul@*****.COM writes:

> It's not so much that the Great Ghost Dance brought about the return
> of magic. That would have happened either way. What has been proposed
> is that the power of the GGD brought magic back in the world faster
> than it would have apeared on it's own. Imagine the magic cycle as a
> door. The date the sixth world started was when the door was
> unlatched. Left to itself, the unlatched door would swing open on it's
> own. The GGD gave the door a push, making it swing open a little
> faster.
>
In spikes yes certainly, but not overall. Ryumyo was spotted in 2011, along
with the birth of elves and dwarfs, this was long before the Ghost Dance.
If they had not danced, the Azzies would have had to work a lot more for
their bridge, but they would have done it. There are other spikes throughout
the world, otherwise there would be no spike babies :-)
Message no. 8
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:34:08 -0600
:It's not so much that the Great Ghost Dance brought about the return
:of magic. That would have happened either way. What has been proposed
:is that the power of the GGD brought magic back in the world faster
:than it would have apeared on it's own. Imagine the magic cycle as a
:door. The date the sixth world started was when the door was
:unlatched. Left to itself, the unlatched door would swing open on it's
:own. The GGD gave the door a push, making it swing open a little
:faster.

The GGD created a manaspike- a widespread surge of mana that allowed
magical manifestations (which do not generally revert in low mana). Mana
spikes are not permanent, though they can be long lived; If people can do
rituals tahat affect worldwide mana levels, Thera would still be around
kicking ass and taking names. Saying that the GGD alone hastened the
sixth age probably leaves out a host of hidden factors- it is not even
considered a uniquely powerful event anymore, afaik.

Mongoose
Message no. 9
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:07:49 EST
In a message dated 12/12/1998 10:20:10 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gbmaill@***.DE writes:

>
> Wait! Did the dance start the "sixth world"? Aren't you mixing cause and
> effect? The great dragon Ryomo (sp?) appeared at the same time Howling
> Coyote started the dance. I thought the beginning of the sixth world was
the
> cause for Coyote's magic working. Otherwise the magic would have worked at
> the Battle of the Wounded Knee when the indians had their first dance.
> Anyway, Howling Coyote must have known when to start the dance and that
> implies the question where he got THAT knowledge from.

Just for FYI, the GGD did NOT happen at the same time as the Awakening itself.
It did in fact happen several years later...

-K
Message no. 10
From: Gorbi <gbmaill@***.DE>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:42:34 +0100
K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM> wrote:


>> Wait! Did the dance start the "sixth world"? Aren't you mixing cause
and
>> effect? The great dragon Ryomo (sp?) appeared at the same time Howling
>> Coyote started the dance. I thought the beginning of the sixth world was
>the
>> cause for Coyote's magic working. Otherwise the magic would have worked
at
>> the Battle of the Wounded Knee when the indians had their first dance.
>> Anyway, Howling Coyote must have known when to start the dance and that
>> implies the question where he got THAT knowledge from.
>
>Just for FYI, the GGD did NOT happen at the same time as the Awakening
itself.
>It did in fact happen several years later...

Yes, I confused the magically supported escape of HC from the "re-education
camp" with the GGD.
But if that dance for escape was not born out of pure despair then the
question remains why HC knew that the magic would work.
Message no. 11
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 08:20:33 EST
In a message dated 12/13/1998 6:44:19 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gbmaill@***.DE writes:

> >Just for FYI, the GGD did NOT happen at the same time as the Awakening
> itself.
> >It did in fact happen several years later...
>
> Yes, I confused the magically supported escape of HC from the "re-education
> camp" with the GGD.
> But if that dance for escape was not born out of pure despair then the
> question remains why HC knew that the magic would work.

That question is argued out actually in yet another of those famous books
about the Immortals. Me personally, I think the topic should have been left
with "the Totems told the Story" instead of the "Demonic Childspawn of an
Immortal Elf and Eternal Horror". The book is Worlds Without End IIRC.

-K
Message no. 12
From: Gorbi <gbmaill@***.DE>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 15:32:21 +0100
K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM> wrote:


>> Yes, I confused the magically supported escape of HC from the
"re-education
>> camp" with the GGD.
>> But if that dance for escape was not born out of pure despair then the
>> question remains why HC knew that the magic would work.
>
>That question is argued out actually in yet another of those famous books
>about the Immortals. Me personally, I think the topic should have been
left
>with "the Totems told the Story" instead of the "Demonic Childspawn of
an
>Immortal Elf and Eternal Horror". The book is Worlds Without End IIRC.


I read it just a few days ago. And I didn't find the passage you mention.
The only thing I found was that Thais (the Demonic Childspawn) manifested as
a totem hundred and thirty years too early and caused the massacre of the
Wounded Knee. Okay, it's very possible that he tried that little trick again
in 2011-2017 (because that's his nature) but it isn't explicitly said. So if
you want to "blame" the Totems for it (that's an idea I like very much) -
why not?

Gorbi
Message no. 13
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 10:01:11 EST
In a message dated 12/13/1998 9:34:18 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gbmaill@***.DE writes:

>
> I read it just a few days ago. And I didn't find the passage you mention.
> The only thing I found was that Thais (the Demonic Childspawn) manifested
as
> a totem hundred and thirty years too early and caused the massacre of the
> Wounded Knee. Okay, it's very possible that he tried that little trick
again
> in 2011-2017 (because that's his nature) but it isn't explicitly said. So
if
> you want to "blame" the Totems for it (that's an idea I like very much) -
> why not?
>
> Gorbi

After I posted that, I recalled the potential differences. Personally, I
don't know if the totems would have taught such a thing due to the long term
problems. BUT, on the other hand, the Manaspike created by the GGD(s) would
have allowed more than just Horrors to come across it. There are, IMO, no
doubt other types of beings (the Totems being one potential group) that could
have used the Spike's "Bridging Effects" to move more of their own influences
across into the "Realm of Earth" (watched Mortal Combat again the other day,
sorry).

What was the phrase ... he who has the most toys (in this case Humanity) ...
wins???

-K
Message no. 14
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 09:58:58 -0600
----------
> From: Gorbi <gbmaill@***.DE>
> >
> >Just for FYI, the GGD did NOT happen at the same time as the Awakening
> itself.
> >It did in fact happen several years later...
>
> Yes, I confused the magically supported escape of HC from the
"re-education
> camp" with the GGD.
> But if that dance for escape was not born out of pure despair then the
> question remains why HC knew that the magic would work.

I would guess that he knew it would work because Coyote told him it would.

--
Rev. Mark Hall
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
It's important that a character knows his limits... but its really fun
when he doesn't.
-Steve, who plays the cowardly EOD Specialist
Message no. 15
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 11:11:25 EST
In a message dated 12/13/98 5:21:34 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Ereskanti@***.COM writes:

> > Yes, I confused the magically supported escape of HC from the "re-
> education
> > camp" with the GGD.
> > But if that dance for escape was not born out of pure despair then the
> > question remains why HC knew that the magic would work.
>
> That question is argued out actually in yet another of those famous books
> about the Immortals. Me personally, I think the topic should have been
left
> with "the Totems told the Story" instead of the "Demonic Childspawn
of an
> Immortal Elf and Eternal Horror". The book is Worlds Without End IIRC.
You are right about the book, though IIRC it was more of a hint, and it was
actually the earlier RL Ghost Dance that was taught by It. The magic could
have been spontaneous or taught by totems (depending on how you believe) but
remember also that the elves of Tir na nOg were using magic in commando raids
and such near the same time. (though, they obviously had the IEs to draw on)
This was after dragons had been popping up all over the place, and there is
no telling what other little critters had Awakened. Perhaps he was taught by a
domovoi :-)
Message no. 16
From: Steven McCormick <stardust@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 10:51:55 -0600
At 10:01 AM 12/13/98 EST, K wrote:
>> you want to "blame" the Totems for it (that's an idea I like very
much) -
>> why not?
>>
>> Gorbi
>
>After I posted that, I recalled the potential differences. Personally, I
>don't know if the totems would have taught such a thing due to the long term

Coyote would. That's his way. :)

>problems. BUT, on the other hand, the Manaspike created by the GGD(s) would
>have allowed more than just Horrors to come across it. There are, IMO, no
>doubt other types of beings (the Totems being one potential group) that could
>have used the Spike's "Bridging Effects" to move more of their own
influences
>across into the "Realm of Earth" (watched Mortal Combat again the other day,
>sorry).
>

Personally, I don't think the Totems or their influences (as you so
eloquently put it :)) would exist on the same metaplane as the Horrors.
If the Totems do have more powerful "influences" that they are striving to
reach, I believe that they are on an entirely different metaplane. To me,
the Totems are magical incarnations of nature and are thus more readily
attuned to the "Realm of Earth", while the Horrors are incarnations of
chaos and cannot as easily bridge the gap between the two.

Of course, I didn't take the time to complete the logic of the above
statements, so if you see gaps, there are. Gimme a break, I'm making this
up as I go! :)

BlueMule
Ah yes, nothing like a friendly theoretical magic debate on a Sunday
morning. :)
Message no. 17
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:24:28 -0600
On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 10:51:55 -0600 Steven McCormick <stardust@***.NET>
writes:
>At 10:01 AM 12/13/98 EST, K wrote:
>>> you want to "blame" the Totems for it (that's an idea I like very
much) -
>>> why not?
>>>
>>> Gorbi

>>After I posted that, I recalled the potential differences. Personally,
I
>>don't know if the totems would have taught such a thing due to the long
term

>Coyote would. That's his way. :)

>>problems. BUT, on the other hand, the Manaspike created by the GGD(s)
would
>>have allowed more than just Horrors to come across it. There are, IMO,
no
>>doubt other types of beings (the Totems being one potential group) that
could
>>have used the Spike's "Bridging Effects" to move more of their own
influences
>>across into the "Realm of Earth" (watched Mortal Combat again the other
day,
>>sorry).

>Personally, I don't think the Totems or their influences (as you so
>eloquently put it :)) would exist on the same metaplane as the Horrors.
>If the Totems do have more powerful "influences" that they are striving
to
>reach, I believe that they are on an entirely different metaplane. To
me,
>the Totems are magical incarnations of nature and are thus more readily
>attuned to the "Realm of Earth", while the Horrors are incarnations of
>chaos and cannot as easily bridge the gap between the two.
>
>Of course, I didn't take the time to complete the logic of the above
>statements, so if you see gaps, there are. Gimme a break, I'm making
this
>up as I go! :)

I think what K meant was that the metaplane(s) that the totems resided on
was seperated from "Realm of Earth" in a similar manner that the
Horrors' metaplane is but the GGD and what not created a similar bridge.
(Remember, the GGD created more than one mana spiken and a certain
someone will be spending quite a bit of time ironning them out.)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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Message no. 18
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:59:54 EST
In a message dated 12/13/1998 12:00:05 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
stardust@***.NET writes:

>
> Personally, I don't think the Totems or their influences (as you so
> eloquently put it :)) would exist on the same metaplane as the Horrors.
> If the Totems do have more powerful "influences" that they are striving to
> reach, I believe that they are on an entirely different metaplane. To me,
> the Totems are magical incarnations of nature and are thus more readily
> attuned to the "Realm of Earth", while the Horrors are incarnations of
> chaos and cannot as easily bridge the gap between the two.
>
> Of course, I didn't take the time to complete the logic of the above
> statements, so if you see gaps, there are. Gimme a break, I'm making this
> up as I go! :)

No problem. Now as for what I was trying to say, and must've failed, is that
the Spike/Bridge created by the GGD(s) is not something solely limited to
"making it easier for the Horrors". I was also saying that a Spike (using
Metaphorical Physics here, lest Adam haggle me to death ;) isn't going simply
in one "direction" per say. It is simply a field of energy in an overly
pronouncable or manifestable referent state. I would say it would look more
like a Tree or Mushroom cloud. As it "rose into the Metaplanar Sky", it would
blossom out more, with it's edges/branches getting nearer and nearer to other,
far "deeper", metaplaces. The Horrors are on "one side" of the
distance, and
the "Others" are on different levels.

But again, IMO of course

-K
Message no. 19
From: Glenn Royer <groyer@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:09:37 -0500
re: GGD and the source of magical knowledge.

The Tir Taingire sourcebook hints that Howling Coyote was actually Ehran
the Scribe and it was all a big Elfie Conspiracy (TM) to facilitate the
creation of the elven nation.
-Glenn.
Message no. 20
From: Blackadder <blkadder@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:14:28 -0500
Oh yeah. I' believe that one.
And Crash Bandicoot is actually the living incarnation of the
Coyote Totem ;-}

The BlackAdder !!!



-----Original Message-----

|The Tir Taingire sourcebook hints that Howling Coyote was actually
Ehran
|the Scribe and it was all a big Elfie Conspiracy (TM) to facilitate
the
|creation of the elven nation.
|-Glenn.
|
Message no. 21
From: Jared Leisner <leisnj48@****.CIS.UWOSH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:37:46 -0600
>re: GGD and the source of magical knowledge.
>
>The Tir Taingire sourcebook hints that Howling Coyote was actually Ehran
>the Scribe and it was all a big Elfie Conspiracy (TM) to facilitate the
>creation of the elven nation.
>-Glenn.

No, Ehran was another magical Indian big-wig. It was explained in _Worlds
without End_. He manipulated the Cascade Crow tribes to set up the area for
TT to be established. And Howling Coyote came back in a book, and I doubt
that 1000 astrally active people would miss his obviously-elven aura. :)


-Jared
Message no. 22
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:28:56 +1000
>... And Howling Coyote came back in a book, and I doubt
>that 1000 astrally active people would miss his obviously-elven aura. :)

Erm... Ever heard of Masking?

(>)ARKHAM
"Pop-quiz hotshot: Five hundred Storm Troopers on jetpacks fly down from
the hole in the ceiling. What do you do? WHAT DO YOU DO?!?!"
Message no. 23
From: Jared Leisner <leisnj48@****.CIS.UWOSH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:42:02 -0600
>>... And Howling Coyote came back in a book, and I doubt
>>that 1000 astrally active people would miss his obviously-elven aura. :)
>
>Erm... Ever heard of Masking?


I was under the impression that masking could only conceal your
Initiated/Magical nature, not your sex, species, astral activity or
presence.

Of course, I could be mistaken.

-Jared
Message no. 24
From: Blackadder <blkadder@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:43:02 -0500
Ehran and Howling Coyote are NOT the same person!
It turns out Howling Coyote is [was] still alive, and shows up in
the 3rd Shadowrun book ever put out [not including the 1 trade
paperback anthology, Into The Shadows], Find Your Own Truth, by
Charrette, masquerading as a bum in Denver.


MASIVE SPOILER FOR THOSES WHO HAVEN"T READ THE BOOK YET.....
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Howling Coyote dies in the book, along with a crapload of other
shamans, reenacting the Great Ghost Dance, to desroy a massively
powerful Spider Spirit.
Message no. 25
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:40:22 PST
>>>... And Howling Coyote came back in a book, and I doubt
>>>that 1000 astrally active people would miss his obviously-elven aura.
:)
>>
>>Erm... Ever heard of Masking?
>
>
>I was under the impression that masking could only conceal your
>Initiated/Magical nature, not your sex, species, astral activity or
>presence.
>
>Of course, I could be mistaken.

According the Grimmy, you can easily mask yourself if you are a more
powerful magician than those around you. Seeing as how Ehran as an
oh... four THOUSAND YEAR leg-up on the other indians, I'd say he
propably qualifies.

>
>-Jared


-Damon Harper
"Tell me, and I forget. Show me, and I remember.
But let me do, and I understand."
-Confucious
________________________________________________________
<nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 26
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:46:34 PST
> Ehran and Howling Coyote are NOT the same person!
> It turns out Howling Coyote is [was] still alive, and shows up in
>the 3rd Shadowrun book ever put out [not including the 1 trade
>paperback anthology, Into The Shadows], Find Your Own Truth, by
>Charrette, masquerading as a bum in Denver.

I remember the snippet in question in TT where it compares Ehran and
Howling-Coyote. FYOT came out before TT, so it's possible that this
"revelation" is a more recent plot device/conspiracy.
But, as a matter of discourse, it is possible for a magically-active
4-thousand-year-old elf to a) pose as Daniel H-C, b) pose as H-C 50
years later, c) pose as H-C posing as a bum, and finally...

>
>
>MASIVE SPOILER FOR THOSES WHO HAVEN"T READ THE BOOK YET.....
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> Howling Coyote dies in the book, along with a crapload of other
>shamans, reenacting the Great Ghost Dance, to desroy a massively
>powerful Spider Spirit.
>
d) fake his own death. A trick I'm sure an immortal elf has had to
do many times over the centuries.

-Damon Harper
"Tell me, and I forget. Show me, and I remember.
But let me do, and I understand."
-Confucious
________________________________________________________
<nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 27
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:31:40 +1000
<BigSnips (TM), BigSnips (TM) everywhere!>
> I remember the snippet in question in TT where it compares Ehran
> and Howling-Coyote. FYOT came out before TT, so it's possible that
> this "revelation" is a more recent plot device/conspiracy.
<Damon Harper>

Just one thing before you get the plebs ( :) ) confused, Damon.

Tir Tairngire does NOT compare Ehran the Scribe to Daniel
Howling-Coyote. It does NOT conjecture that they are one and the same.

It does in fact compare Ehran to a different Amerindian
activist/politician, whose name I can't remember at this moment. Walter
Bright-something or other, I think. This man had nothing to do with
Daniel Howling-Coyote, except for the fact that (according to official
records) he came out of the internment camps - and because of his
presence there, all previous records of his life had been destroyed.

This man was critical in the split from the NAN and formation of Tir
Tairngire. He was very pro-metahuman, but also (oddly enough) advocated
separation of metahumans from humans (and from other metahumans for that
matter).

So, basically, you're looking at something different entirely. The
snippet you refer to demonstrates the 'Great Elven Conspiracy' that
helped to form Tir Tairngire, not that the elves orchestrated the Great
Ghost Dance.

Btw, don't read any further if you a) don't like Earthdawn/Shadowrun
crossovers, b) don't know about the...errr...Enemy and don't want to
know and c) just don't want to know period. :)





















Btw, aren't most immortal elves totally freaked out by blood magic and
determined not to give the 'lesser metahumans' secrets they haven't
earned themselves? Hmmm? Okay - now do you really think that the IEs
would have shown the Amerindians the way to perform the Great Ghost
Dance, a ritual that would have, in effect, allowed the Horrors into the
world thousands of years early, if not for the events described in the
Dragon Heart Saga?

I guess it's possible that Howling-Coyote was really a renegade IE - but
I can't see the mainstream ones doing what he did.

Of course, I could be an IE in disguise, trying to allay suspicions of
what's to come in the future.

*Doc' lurks around, looking mysterious and thorny.*

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 28
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:20:58 -0600
From: Ratinac, Rand (NSW)
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 5:32 PM

>It does in fact compare Ehran to a different Amerindian
>activist/politician, whose name I can't remember at this moment.
>Walter Bright-something or other, I think.

Walter Bright Water.
Message no. 29
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:30:33 +1000
> From: Ratinac, Rand (NSW)
> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 5:32 PM
>
> >It does in fact compare Ehran to a different Amerindian
> >activist/politician, whose name I can't remember at this moment.
> >Walter Bright-something or other, I think.
>
> Walter Bright Water.
>
That's the guy.

8-)

Doc'

.sig Sauer

P.S. As far as speculations as to whether or not MS has bought out a)
FASA or b) some of FASA's games go, try this. Ask Mike Mulvihill.

The reason he was saying 'no comment' about FASA Interactive and
Microsoft before was because negotiations were still in process, I would
say. As of now, MS has bought FASA Interactive, so I'd say they're
probably free to discuss the terms of the deal (more or less) - unless
one of the terms was that nothing be said. So ask. My money's is on him
laughing and saying, 'Yeah, right', or the equivalent.
Message no. 30
From: "Chant_obscur@*******.fr" <Chant_Obscur@*******.FR>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 02:03:12 +0100
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Ratinac, Rand (NSW) <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Date : vendredi 8 janvier 1999 00:18

>Tir Tairngire does NOT compare Ehran the Scribe to Daniel
>Howling-Coyote. It does NOT conjecture that they are one and the same.
>
>It does in fact compare Ehran to a different Amerindian
>activist/politician, whose name I can't remember at this moment. Walter
>Bright-something or other, I think. This man had nothing to do with
>Daniel Howling-Coyote, except for the fact that (according to official
>records) he came out of the internment camps - and because of his
>presence there, all previous records of his life had been destroyed.
>
>This man was critical in the split from the NAN and formation of Tir
>Tairngire. He was very pro-metahuman, but also (oddly enough) advocated
>separation of metahumans from humans (and from other metahumans for that
>matter).
>
Walter Bright-Water. Ehran convinced the elders through his impressive
knowledge of the tribe's rites.

>So, basically, you're looking at something different entirely. The
>snippet you refer to demonstrates the 'Great Elven Conspiracy' that
>helped to form Tir Tairngire, not that the elves orchestrated the Great
>Ghost Dance.
>
>Btw, don't read any further if you a) don't like Earthdawn/Shadowrun
>crossovers, b) don't know about the...errr...Enemy and don't want to
>know and c) just don't want to know period. :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Btw, aren't most immortal elves totally freaked out by blood magic and
>determined not to give the 'lesser metahumans' secrets they haven't
>earned themselves? Hmmm? Okay - now do you really think that the IEs
>would have shown the Amerindians the way to perform the Great Ghost
>Dance, a ritual that would have, in effect, allowed the Horrors into the
>world thousands of years early, if not for the events described in the
>Dragon Heart Saga?

It is alluded to in Worlds Without End that Thaïs (Aina's half horror,
half IE son) was the one to spill the beans to the Native Americans
as to how the Great Ghost Dance could be done.

>I guess it's possible that Howling-Coyote was really a renegade IE - but
>I can't see the mainstream ones doing what he did.

I seem to recall though I can't check right now that there's a passage
in the Aztlan sourcebook where Lady of the Court mentions that
the IE should have killed Howling-Coyote. If somebody else was
kind enough to check, I think their comments were relevant to
the discussion at hand.

>Of course, I could be an IE in disguise, trying to allay suspicions of
>what's to come in the future.

Cool! 8-)

Anjo Verde
Message no. 31
From: Glenn Royer <groyer@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:51:04 -0500
Jared Leisner wrote:
> I was under the impression that masking could only conceal your
> Initiated/Magical nature, not your sex, species, astral activity or
> presence.
>
> Of course, I could be mistaken.
>
> -Jared
well... you could say that since Ehran is a force-of-nature npc, those
rules are thrown out the window, but then in Secrets o' Power the
disguised dragon appeared dragonlike on astal. so.. (shrug)
-Glenn
Message no. 32
From: Jack Skater <bjames@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:59:39 -0600
I wish to get off of this mailing list.
Message no. 33
From: ArcLight <arclight@**************.COM>
Subject: AW: Timeline Question
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:47:55 +0100
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]Im
> Auftrag von Jack Skater
> Gesendet am: Donnerstag, 14. Januar 1999 0200
> An: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Betreff: Re: Timeline Question
>
> I wish to get off of this mailing list.


Then unsub : ))


ArcLight
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