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Message no. 1
From: tkerby <tkerby@***.NET>
Subject: Time travel and magic...
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 21:22:27 +0500
Discussions on ShadowGm have turned to time travel, and I began to wonder
about something...what would happen to metahumans in the past when magic is
not present (or very weak)? Would they begin to revert back to human form
due to the fact that magic is no longer affecting the metagene?

____TIM KERBY___|=============================================================
tkerby@***.net |"Never relax. Your run might be over, but someone, somewhere,
drekhead@***.com| is just starting his and the target could be you."
________________|
Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Time travel and magic...
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 11:57:03 +0930
tkerby wrote:
>
> Discussions on ShadowGm have turned to time travel, and I began to wonder
> about something...what would happen to metahumans in the past when magic is
> not present (or very weak)? Would they begin to revert back to human form
> due to the fact that magic is no longer affecting the metagene?

Damn good question...

There are at least two viewpoints. One says yes (ouch... reverse
goblinisation).

Mine says, well look at the Horrors... they can survive long past the level
of magic needed to get them here. Maybe metahumans can, as well.

In practise, there are several beings who lived through the last cycle of
magic (Ehran, Harley, etc), and they were elves before, and elves now. What
they were in the middle? *shrug* There's lots of myths about elves and
goblins and what not during the middle ages...

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 3
From: MENARD Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Time travel and magic...
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 00:47:11 -0400
On Tue, 26 Sep 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> tkerby wrote:
> >
> > Discussions on ShadowGm have turned to time travel, and I began to wonder
> > about something...what would happen to metahumans in the past when magic is
> > not present (or very weak)? Would they begin to revert back to human form
> > due to the fact that magic is no longer affecting the metagene?
>
> Damn good question...
>
> There are at least two viewpoints. One says yes (ouch... reverse
> goblinisation).
>
> Mine says, well look at the Horrors... they can survive long past the level
> of magic needed to get them here. Maybe metahumans can, as well.
>
> In practise, there are several beings who lived through the last cycle of
> magic (Ehran, Harley, etc), and they were elves before, and elves now. What
> they were in the middle? *shrug* There's lots of myths about elves and
> goblins and what not during the middle ages...
>

I do not think they'd be affected by the removal of magic. Do
metahumans turn back when they're sent into orbit? No, I didn't think so.
Plus there is the spike babies phenomenum(elves for the most part, born
before the return of magic), and as we all know that elves are born
elves, that they do not goblinize at all(neither do dwarves for that
matter). So my verdict would be that mana is needed to activate the
metagenes, but not to maintain the effect. Of course, mages would most
probably find he experience very disquieting as they'd find themselves
most probably unable to cast, summon or even astrally project(or at
least, the drain would be way up, even for run-of-the-mill preception).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Time travel and magic...
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 17:17:40 +0930
MENARD Steve wrote:
> I do not think they'd be affected by the removal of magic. Do
> metahumans turn back when they're sent into orbit? No, I didn't think so.
> Plus there is the spike babies phenomenum(elves for the most part, born
> before the return of magic),

Well, they're called spike babies for a reason... :)

> and as we all know that elves are born
> elves, that they do not goblinize at all(neither do dwarves for that
> matter). So my verdict would be that mana is needed to activate the
> metagenes, but not to maintain the effect. Of course, mages would most
> probably find he experience very disquieting as they'd find themselves
> most probably unable to cast, summon or even astrally project(or at
> least, the drain would be way up, even for run-of-the-mill preception).

What about a gradual change, though? Without magic, the metagenes go
dormant, on that we agree. Perhaps that means new cells that get created
wouldn't be metahuman, but plain human, resulting in a gradual conversion
back. And, of course, like the Horrors, the threshold level for the initial
existance is higher than the level required for it to stop having an
effect...

(Just an idea... :) )

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 5
From: Charles McKenzie <kilroy@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Time travel and magic...
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 03:53:05 -0500
On Mon, 25 Sep 1995, tkerby wrote:

> Discussions on ShadowGm have turned to time travel, and I began to wonder
> about something...what would happen to metahumans in the past when magic is
> not present (or very weak)? Would they begin to revert back to human form
> due to the fact that magic is no longer affecting the metagene?

I doubt it. In the first Harlequin, one of the runs is to get a
really old book that's about trolls in the Middle Ages. Although
I don't really have anything to back it up with in the book, I'm planning
on having the book's author be Ehran the Scribe. If my players notice,
all the more power to 'em, if they don't, typical.

Kilroy

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http://yar.cs.wisc.edu:80/~kilroy/
Message no. 6
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Time travel and magic...
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 18:29:03 +0930
Charles McKenzie wrote:
>
> I doubt it. In the first Harlequin, one of the runs is to get a
> really old book that's about trolls in the Middle Ages. Although

You mean the book on demon summoning OWNED by a troll in Middle Europe,
surely?

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 7
From: Charles McKenzie <kilroy@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Time travel and magic...
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 04:08:18 -0500
On Tue, 26 Sep 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:
> You mean the book on demon summoning OWNED by a troll in Middle Europe,
> surely?
>
Is that what it's about? I havn't read the whole module yet, so I just
took that from the way that the troll who owned it thought it would prove
the existance of trolls in Germany in the Dark Ages...
Kilroy
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Message no. 8
From: Christopher Maley <cmaley@******.LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Time travel and magic...
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 11:46:20 -0700
> Discussions on ShadowGm have turned to time travel, and I began to wonder
> about something...what would happen to metahumans in the past when magic is
> not present (or very weak)? Would they begin to revert back to human form
> due to the fact that magic is no longer affecting the metagene?

Could be. But e\what if they weren't human to begin with? I.e.,
Orcs from orc parents, elves from elvish parents etc.

C.M.
Message no. 9
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Time travel and magic...
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 20:16:07 +0100
Robert Watkins wrote:
> What about a gradual change, though? Without magic, the metagenes go
> dormant, on that we agree. Perhaps that means new cells that get created
> wouldn't be metahuman, but plain human, resulting in a gradual conversion
> back. And, of course, like the Horrors, the threshold level for the initial
> existance is higher than the level required for it to stop having an
> effect...
Then you still have to explain Elves like Sean Laverty... or that Australian
Elf, U...something.
A 'spike' must be temporal limited, or else you would have had, er, will have,
er... are having right now... well, regions with lots of orcs and elves and
trolls (No, basketball-teams do NOT count as Trolls!!!)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 10
From: Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject: Re: Time travel and magic...
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 16:56:41 -0400
>> Discussions on ShadowGm have turned to time travel, and I began to wonder
>> about something...what would happen to metahumans in the past when magic is
>> not present (or very weak)? Would they begin to revert back to human form
>> due to the fact that magic is no longer affecting the metagene?
[minor stuff cut]
>There are at least two viewpoints. One says yes (ouch... reverse
>goblinisation).
>
>Mine says, well look at the Horrors... they can survive long past the level
>of magic needed to get them here. Maybe metahumans can, as well.
>
>In practise, there are several beings who lived through the last cycle of
>magic (Ehran, Harley, etc), and they were elves before, and elves now. What
>they were in the middle? *shrug* There's lots of myths about elves and
>goblins and what not during the middle ages...

Wow...this is the most traffic I've seen on shadowGM yet...

I like the second viewpoint better...it's better for Gm's... :) This is
something I've been thinking about recently...I was wondering what happened
to elves and dragons during the fifth world. Elves might have gotten some
sort of cosmetic changes during that time, but dragons might be a little harder
to hide. I wonder if maybe when the mana level drops, do they maybe activate
some sort of long-term masking or whatever it is they do? The reason I was
thinking of this is because I had some thoughts of a weird plot line where
a masked dragon was cyrogenically <sp?> frozen for medical reasons, and perhaps
accidentally unfrozen by the PC's, who heal him. He would still look like a
human until he realizes that the mana level has risen again, when he might
still remain as a human for a while. Probably I would use him as an
ultra-contact or perhaps to get the PC's out of a situation they are stuck
in.

Oh, well, enough writing for now...

>>>>>>>> Nate
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
| NTWalker@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US |
| a.k.a. The Joker |
| |
| Have you ever danced with the devil in that pale moonlight? |
| - Joker |
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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Message no. 11
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: Time travel and magic...
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 17:20:00 PDT
>Discussions on ShadowGm have turned to time travel, and I began to wonder
>about something...what would happen to metahumans in the past when magic is
>not present (or very weak)? Would they begin to revert back to human form
>due to the fact that magic is no longer affecting the metagene?

Nothing. Someone brought up this question early in the year and the pointed
out the one of the characters in a module had something similar happen and
they did not revert back to human.



Ricky
"All seeing, all knowing, ALWAYS annoying"
<<<<<stjeanr@*******.CANADORE.ON.CA>>>>>
Message no. 12
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: Time travel and magic...
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 17:44:00 PDT
>What about a gradual change, though? Without magic, the metagenes go
>dormant, on that we agree. Perhaps that means new cells that get created
>wouldn't be metahuman, but plain human, resulting in a gradual conversion
>back. And, of course, like the Horrors, the threshold level for the initial
>existance is higher than the level required for it to stop having an
>effect...

This would mean that the elves and such would start to age as humans again.
Therefore they would no longer be alive.


Ricky
"All seeing, all knowing, ALWAYS annoying"
<<<<<stjeanr@*******.CANADORE.ON.CA>>>>>
Message no. 13
From: Tim Kerby <tkerby@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Time travel and magic...
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 23:13:04 +0500
On 9-26-95, Christopher Maley responded:

> > Discussions on ShadowGm have turned to time travel, and I began to wonder
> > about something...what would happen to metahumans in the past when magic is
> > not present (or very weak)? Would they begin to revert back to human form
> > due to the fact that magic is no longer affecting the metagene?
>
> Could be. But e\what if they weren't human to begin with? I.e.,
> Orcs from orc parents, elves from elvish parents etc.
>
> C.M.

Well, in that case, magic is affecting the metagene during gestation. So no
magic, and the genetic changes do not take place in the womb.


____TIM KERBY___|=============================================================
tkerby@***.net |"Never relax. Your run might be over, but someone, somewhere,
drekhead@***.com| is just starting his and the target could be you."
________________|
Message no. 14
From: Tim Kerby <tkerby@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Time travel and magic...
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 23:18:41 +0500
Well, I feel that the flesh would revert, in time. The body continuously
regenrates and rejuvenates itself, growing new cells, etc. albeit slowly.
Without magic, the metagene is inert, and cannot tell the body to build,
repair, replace, metahuman traits, skin consistency, bone thickness, etc.
So the body rebuilds itself into its genetic model, based on its DNA "map",
which is now missing the metahuman compotent. Result? The metahumanity would
slowly be "washed" or healed right out of the system. As you can see, a very
slow process indeed. But from a roleplaying aspect, I would rule that a
methuman character travelling through time to the past would somehow be
subject to an accelerated regression to human, a result of the temporal
displacement. Of course, going home to the future would reverse the
process. Man, after all that, wouldn't he be glad to be home....and Dorothy
thought she had it bad...


____TIM KERBY___|=============================================================
tkerby@***.net |"Never relax. Your run might be over, but someone, somewhere,
drekhead@***.com| is just starting his and the target could be you."
________________|
Message no. 15
From: Cugel the Clever <cugel@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Time travel and magic...
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 00:45:06 +01.0
>Discussions on ShadowGm have turned to time travel, and I began to
>wonder about something...what would happen to metahumans in the
>past when magic is not present (or very weak)? Would they begin to
>revert back to human form due to the fact that magic is no longer
>affecting the metagene?

I wouldn't think so. I can logically see a gene being changed by
magic into something else, but the reverse would be less logical. It
is reasonable to assume however that the children of meta-humans at
the start of the fifth world were human (or human-birth from meta-
humans slowly increased), assuming the gene is not hereditary and
affects the meta-human foetus's genes. That explains on one hand the
continious exsistance of the immortal elves who don't change back and
use cosmetic changes or magic to hide their appearance, and on the
other hand why human parents could give birth to elven children.
Goblinization occured in a slightly different way. Some kind of gene
triggers a spontaneously mutation when the magic level gets stronger,
and the change back could be in the same way. The gene keeps the
changes intact as long as the magic level is high enough.

Just my 2 cents,

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net / bdi05626@***.rhij.nl)
Many an ancient lord's last words had been, "You can't kill me
because I've got magic aaargh." (Terry Pratchett, Interesting Times)
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Further Reading

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