Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Tobias Diekershoff)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Sat Dec 15 03:40:01 2001
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi All,

do you know Michael Chrichtons "Timeline"? If not then read the book!
However I'm planing a timetravel adventure-series using the book as
mainplot for the "Christmas-Special".
So the basics are done, now come the details and that's were I need
abit help :) It would be very nice, if you can help me with the
following questions:

1) Did you ever run a timetravel campaign, and in what for problems did
you run into?

2) The targeted time is around 1400 a.C. - How will the awakened bodies
of the characters react in this manaless time? That the magican will
not be able to cast any spells or summon spirits is clear, but what
about elves and orks? Will they transform back into human shape or will
they be unaffacted atall?

I thought I run into more deadends, but can't remember any of them now
- - perhaps later.

- - Burning Avatar

- ----------------------------------
Ona galad a naur i lumbulo

BA's data haven
http://home.t-online.de/home/tobias.d/srmain.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.1e-SuSE (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Weitere Infos: siehe http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE8Gw2YZGcehYJc4AcRAoq6AJ45XKignWDifOPrnSznVBWCkIL7XwCaA6ID
JcL+eyjqDjCclzIjN7/rc4M=Nsin
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Sat Dec 15 04:00:01 2001
> 1) Did you ever run a timetravel campaign, and in what for problems did
> you run into?
>

Paradoxs are the big thing. What happens if you wipe out the runners fore
fathers? Do they cease to exist or do the runners risk returning to an
alternate timeline created by screw ups of being gun happy in 1400 ac - this
ultimately ends up with the bill & ted syndrome where you have runners going
back to warn thier former selves not to screw up.

> 2) The targeted time is around 1400 a.C. - How will the awakened bodies
> of the characters react in this manaless time? That the magican will
> not be able to cast any spells or summon spirits is clear, but what
> about elves and orks? Will they transform back into human shape or will
> they be unaffacted atall?
>

considering magic is more within than without I doubt mages would be
affected. Same with meta humans...though a troll WILL stand out like a sore
thumb regardless of where he goes. Same with orks. Dwarves would get even
more poking at than they already do. Elves would be the closest human like
race that might not get flak...but one look at the ears and calls of oberon
spawn will be heard..


> I thought I run into more deadends, but can't remember any of them now
> - - perhaps later.
>

Big thing to remember is Cause and Effect. If they tamper with history they
smuck thier presents. Wether a new one is created or they cease to exist
either way it's a major screw up. And watch out for grand screw ups (ie
killing louis so the cardenal reigns over france for example would seriously
smuck the time line. Rather than royalty reigning you'd have a religious
zealot dictator)

Going back and smucking hitler before WW2 would most likely result in the
atomic bomb never being used. (without germany attacking I doubt japan would
have had the balls to attack pearl harbour)

And if the bomb never drops Hirosheema is no longer a magic wild zone since
the nuclear caused background would never have existed.

Expect at least one player to screw things up. It ALWAYS happens. somehow,
someway, a time traveller WILL screw up history (ie kill someone supposedly
not important but be the fore father of some important diplomat). So have an
alternate present ready...or clearly explain thru an NPC...smuck a person in
the past you smuck the present. Once they have a firm grasp on that let them
loose...but rest assured unless it's an all human party time WILL be getting
a new twist...

PS: Leaving future weapons in the past = another big no no. Plus cred is
useless, as is deckers, any normal day activities etc
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gak The Great)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Sat Dec 15 07:15:01 2001
Sometime, somwhere down the timeline, Jonathan whispered:
<snip>
> Paradoxs are the big thing. What happens if you wipe out the runners fore
> fathers? Do they cease to exist or do the runners risk returning to an
> alternate timeline created by screw ups of being gun happy in 1400 ac -
this
> ultimately ends up with the bill & ted syndrome where you have runners
going
> back to warn thier former selves not to screw up.

Ahm, didn't Timeline explain timetraveling by alternate dimensions or
parallel worlds or something? So if you screw up, theres just another
dimension thats been altered. But they DID find the professors glasses in
aome kind of catacomb. (maybe i've read too much Cat Who Walks Through
Walls)

> > 2) The targeted time is around 1400 a.C. - How will the awakened bodies
> > of the characters react in this manaless time? That the magican will
> > not be able to cast any spells or summon spirits is clear, but what
> > about elves and orks? Will they transform back into human shape or will
> > they be unaffacted atall?
> >
>
> considering magic is more within than without I doubt mages would be
> affected. Same with meta humans...

I don't think magic in a individual can stay around for long. No
spellcasting, conjurin' and stuff, physads would take their time losing
their power (aren't affected by magical background) and meta's would take a
long time (like, a coupla months/years?) to transform back to human. pretty
shocking expierience, 'specially for trolls and dwarves.
They could expierience phases of great pain when their bodies start to
transform, even though there aren't any noticable changes in their physical/
mental appearance.

> though a troll WILL stand out like a sore
> thumb regardless of where he goes. Same with orks. Dwarves would get even
> more poking at than they already do. Elves would be the closest human like
> race that might not get flak...but one look at the ears and calls of
oberon
> spawn will be heard..

They will probably be called servants of the devil or demons at least by
some people (the zealot priest of the village for example) and be burned if
they aren't careful. Magicians might be accused of witchcraft if they try to
use their powers. In fact, all characters may if they display superior
knowlegde/ "magical" items (fireweapons, transcievers...)
<snip>

> PS: Leaving future weapons in the past = another big no no. Plus cred is
> useless, as is deckers, any normal day activities etc
VERY true. But maybe deckers/riggers can operate the timetraveling device
and some other items essential to the run.

-- GAK THE GREAT

"Ein Ring, sie zu knechten, sie alle zu finden,
Ins Dunkel zu treiben und ewig zu binden,
Im Lande Mordor, wo die Schatten drohn."
Sauron aus "Herr der Ringe von J.R.R. Tolkien

>
>
>
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Sat Dec 15 10:30:01 2001
> Ahm, didn't Timeline explain timetraveling by alternate dimensions or
> parallel worlds or something? So if you screw up, theres just another
> dimension thats been altered. But they DID find the professors glasses in
> aome kind of catacomb. (maybe i've read too much Cat Who Walks Through
> Walls)
>

I'm going on the logic that if you travel to the past, change it from what
happened according to "your" present and then move forward in time again
(return to the present) you'd in fact travel to the present of the altered
timeline...the only way to get back to the original timeline being going
back to just before you changed whatever you changed and stopping
yourself...

> >
> > considering magic is more within than without I doubt mages would be
> > affected. Same with meta humans...
>
> I don't think magic in a individual can stay around for long. No
> spellcasting, conjurin' and stuff, physads would take their time losing
> their power (aren't affected by magical background) and meta's would take
a
> long time (like, a coupla months/years?) to transform back to human.
pretty
> shocking expierience, 'specially for trolls and dwarves.
> They could expierience phases of great pain when their bodies start to
> transform, even though there aren't any noticable changes in their
physical/
> mental appearance.
>

Considering non-awakened characters can be metahumans racial attributes
wouldn't reverse with magic loss. And I consider magic more within rather
than without since if magic was solely an outside force changing your body
wouldn't mean squat. However as is when you alter your body with cyberware
you lose essence which negatively affects your magic rating.

If races could revert back to pure humans then you'd find null magic zones
in the present and send people there to be "cured" since it was that one
sole event that started the transformations...now days those races are not
"transformed humans" but actually bred races.

> They will probably be called servants of the devil or demons at least by
> some people (the zealot priest of the village for example) and be burned
if
> they aren't careful. Magicians might be accused of witchcraft if they try
to
> use their powers. In fact, all characters may if they display superior
> knowlegde/ "magical" items (fireweapons, transcievers...)
> <snip>
>

Go back far enough and show'em a lighter it works in the movies... ;)

> VERY true. But maybe deckers/riggers can operate the timetraveling device
> and some other items essential to the run.

True enough more so riggers than deckers.
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gak The Great)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Sat Dec 15 13:10:01 2001
Sometime, somwhere down the timeline, Jonathan whispered:


<snip>
> > > considering magic is more within than without I doubt mages would be
> > > affected. Same with meta humans...
> >
> > I don't think magic in a individual can stay around for long. No
> > spellcasting, conjurin' and stuff, physads would take their time losing
> > their power (aren't affected by magical background) and meta's would
take
> a
> > long time (like, a coupla months/years?) to transform back to human.
> pretty
> > shocking expierience, 'specially for trolls and dwarves.
> > They could expierience phases of great pain when their bodies start to
> > transform, even though there aren't any noticable changes in their
> physical/
> > mental appearance.
> >
>
> Considering non-awakened characters can be metahumans racial attributes
> wouldn't reverse with magic loss. And I consider magic more within rather
> than without since if magic was solely an outside force changing your body
> wouldn't mean squat. However as is when you alter your body with cyberware
> you lose essence which negatively affects your magic rating.
>
What I meant was that when the magic isn't present anymore in the outer
reaches of the gaiasphere (which is the case when the world is mundane) is
that magic "leaks" out of the individual. That's why magic won't be possible
until 2011 :( ;) so the mage stay awakened, but the spells he casts
dissatipate so fast that they don't have any effect.
Of course, this is magic, a living and unpredictable force in nature (yep,
you've guessed it, I'll be a shaman as soon as I awaken ;p) so YMMV

> If races could revert back to pure humans then you'd find null magic zones
> in the present and send people there to be "cured" since it was that one
> sole event that started the transformations...now days those races are not
> "transformed humans" but actually bred races.

Yeah, but there were other Awakenings before, and those races died out/
retransformed sometime, too. Ok, probably was their descendants simply being
born as humans. I agree with you here.

-- GAK THE GREAT

"Ein Ring, sie zu knechten, sie alle zu finden,
Ins Dunkel zu treiben und ewig zu binden,
Im Lande Mordor, wo die Schatten drohn."
Sauron aus "Herr der Ringe von J.R.R. Tolkien
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Burning Avatar)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Sat Dec 15 13:25:01 2001
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


On 15-Dec-01 Jonathan wrote:

> PS: Leaving future weapons in the past = another big no no. Plus
> cred is useless, as is deckers, any normal day activities etc

If they don't remember this alone, there will be a NPC at ITC who will
told them that they can't take their equipment into the past.

- - Burning Avatar

- ----------------------------------
Ona galad a naur i lumbulo

BA's data haven
http://home.t-online.de/home/tobias.d/srmain.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.1e-SuSE (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Weitere Infos: siehe http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE8G45HZGcehYJc4AcRAn9YAKCt908qasklAOvfyIKvjxGvoHmWAQCffiQ1
oioyx9ugUeLzp2d0JP5o9U8=SNou
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Burning Avatar)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Sat Dec 15 13:25:05 2001
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


On 15-Dec-01 Jonathan wrote:
> > Ahm, didn't Timeline explain timetraveling by alternate dimensions
> > or parallel worlds or something? So if you screw up, theres just
> > another dimension thats been altered. But they DID find the
> > professors glasses in aome kind of catacomb. (maybe i've read
> > too much Cat Who Walks Through Walls)
> >
>
> I'm going on the logic that if you travel to the past, change it
> from what happened according to "your" present and then move
> forward in time again (return to the present) you'd in fact travel
> to the present of the altered timeline...the only way to get back to
> the original timeline being going back to just before you changed
> whatever you changed and stopping yourself...

IIRC they have endless paralell universes for each piece of time, which
are connected and influence each other. So they can change the hole
world if they don't care.

> If races could revert back to pure humans then you'd find null magic
> zones in the present and send people there to be "cured" since it
> was that one sole event that started the transformations...now days
> those races are not "transformed humans" but actually bred races.

That's a good point. Did FASA ever mentioned problems with metas during
spacetravels? If not they'll have a funny time in the darkages <egmg>


- - Burning Avatar

- ----------------------------------
Ona galad a naur i lumbulo

BA's data haven
http://home.t-online.de/home/tobias.d/srmain.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.1e-SuSE (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Weitere Infos: siehe http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE8G4zpZGcehYJc4AcRAv11AJ9a8288X2HXu95UNXMpvpD6fWBsmgCfREfL
RzL8FtC9H7dpvBusmtE6PR8=Ivqh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Sat Dec 15 13:45:05 2001
According to Jonathan, on Sat, 15 Dec 2001 the word on the street was...

> If races could revert back to pure humans then you'd find null magic
> zones in the present and send people there to be "cured" since it was
> that one sole event that started the transformations...now days those
> races are not "transformed humans" but actually bred races.

Best proof: semi-ballistic flights. Metahumans on those don't de-Goblinize
or un-UGE a third of the way up, only to go through the transformation
again two thirds of the way to the destination...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Downtym)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Sun Dec 16 01:30:01 2001
On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Tobias Diekershoff wrote:

> do you know Michael Chrichtons "Timeline"? If not then read the book!
> However I'm planing a timetravel adventure-series using the book as
> mainplot for the "Christmas-Special".
> So the basics are done, now come the details and that's were I need
> abit help :) It would be very nice, if you can help me with the
> following questions:

Read Oscar Scott Card's book, "Pastwatch: The Redemption of
Christopher Columbus" for an interesting take on time travel.

There are MANY theories about how time travel would work. I'd suggest
just picking the one you like and go with it.

Downtym |
Email: gte138j@*****.gatech.edu | Post no bills
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Downtym)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Sun Dec 16 01:40:01 2001
On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Gak The Great wrote:

> What I meant was that when the magic isn't present anymore in the outer
> reaches of the gaiasphere (which is the case when the world is mundane) is
> that magic "leaks" out of the individual. That's why magic won't be
possible
> until 2011 :( ;) so the mage stay awakened, but the spells he casts
> dissatipate so fast that they don't have any effect.
> Of course, this is magic, a living and unpredictable force in nature (yep,
> you've guessed it, I'll be a shaman as soon as I awaken ;p) so YMMV

Unless you assume that by their mere existence that shamans and mages
who are already awakened and tied to the manastream can continue to
maintain that link. I'd suggest higher drain codes, but not getting
rid of their powers - maybe have their powers work a little
differently or something. What you can say is that even though there's
not much magic flowing in the world, the mages and shamans are already
attuned to it and thus can still draw their powers. Unfortunately, the
lack of mana means that they have to drive more of their will into
channelling the power (Kinda like squeezing the last of the toothpaste
out of the tube. ;-) ).

Rather than just looking at them and saying, "Sorry, your spell
fizzles" which will most likely anger any magical players. As to
Adepts, I'd have them start making drain tests when they use their
powers or have their powers activated. The idea being the same as with
mages and shamans. However, I wouldn't make their drains as extreme
because adept powers are meant to use the metahuman body itself as a
mana battery of sorts. Thus, the mana may be hard to pull across from
astral space (The bridge as Harlequin put it), but an adept uses it
more efficiently and mixes in his own body as part of the energy to
fuel the powers he has.

> Yeah, but there were other Awakenings before, and those races died out/
> retransformed sometime, too. Ok, probably was their descendants simply being
> born as humans. I agree with you here.

I would say that the awakened races would have a hard time existing in
a time of lowered mana, but they may or may not revert. Maybe come up
with some sort of test to determine whether or not they will unrevert
(Maybe some people are especially attune to the mana flow and can thus
maintain their bodies in a low tide of magic. Immortal elves being an
example. ;-) ). I'd most likely base this as an essence test as
opposed to any kind of normal attribute test.

Downtym |
Email: gte138j@*****.gatech.edu | Post no bills
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Sun Dec 16 11:20:01 2001
>Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:46:21 +0100 (CET)
>From: Tobias.D@********.de (Tobias Diekershoff)
>To: Shadow RN <shadowrn@*********.com>
>Subject: Timetraveling

>do you know Michael Chrichtons "Timeline"? If not then read the book!
>However I'm planing a timetravel adventure-series using the book as
>mainplot for the "Christmas-Special".
>So the basics are done, now come the details and that's were I need
>abit help :) It would be very nice, if you can help me with the
>following questions:
>
>1) Did you ever run a timetravel campaign, and in what for problems did
>you run into?
>
>2) The targeted time is around 1400 a.C. - How will the awakened bodies
>of the characters react in this manaless time? That the magican will
>not be able to cast any spells or summon spirits is clear, but what
>about elves and orks? Will they transform back into human shape or will
>they be unaffacted atall?
>
>I thought I run into more deadends, but can't remember any of them now
>- - perhaps later.
>

I hate time travel. Unfortunately I am sucker for $1 bargain bins. If you
see any adventures/rules for TimeMaster by Pacesetter (most likely in the
quarter-bin by now) it has an interseting point system for screwing up a
timeline based on how many people you kill, what tech you let show (or
god-forbid leave) etc. They are good adventures for Fringeworthy (alternate
dimension exploration game) and well worth a quarter (but not more than a
dollar - the bad guys are always the same).

Doctor Who sometimes addressed things like meeting yourself by going to the
same time multiple times. Overall it should take more power to visit the
same time more than once, and can cause timestorms and other crap so person
should only go to a given century once, which helps to avoid the Bill & Ted
Syndrome, though it doesn't eliminate it entirely.

The only time I've actually been in a game that had time travel we went to
the future, so paradox could only happen if we got ourselves killed. Then
again only one of us had living relatives and none were our progeny, which
perhaps was the GM foreshadowing something. Players, especially the more
egotistical ones, love to change the world in their image. If they have
tools and are left at the Sphinx you know they will try to make it look like
them, etc. Most of these things are minor as other people will do the same
thing later and eventually it will get repaired or destroyed. If they are
stuck in turbulent times where anything could have happened its best. If its
prehistory its even better as someone might even hear some remote legend
dealing with the characters when they return. Obviously, not letting them
return also helps history to run its course :)

When is 1400 a.C? I think its a typo, but not having read the books I'm not
going to assume anything.

Non-awakened powers shouldn't change, and without magic to retrograde the
DNA metahumans and SURGE mutants will stay physically the same. I would say
magickers still have Magic, but at a time of serious Magic Ebb (Target:
Awakened Lands pg 100) and a rating of 6 to 12 is not out of the question. A
place with a background count advantageous to the person could help offset
this - so if they are in Ebb Rating 10 and at Stonehenge at its height of
glory (say rating 4) the Ebb for a druid of that sect would only be Ebb
Rating 6. High enough that people born in that time wouldn't practice magic,
but IE or other types could at severe penalties.

I would decrease Physical Adepts magic ratings by the Ebb Rating, and do the
same to the Force of any spirit or magic item, and if it reduces the rating
to less than 1 the spirit cannot DO anything at all other than lay dormant
and wait for the Awakening. Powers of awakened critters, etc. would also get
reduced equally, and since most have an Essence of 6 they would lose their
supernatural abilities while keeping their appearance.

This means summoning a Force 8 something at Stonehenge in the above example
would be like summoning a Force 14 spirit, but it would only be Force 2, and
would dissipate/go dormant if forced to leave the area (as it would then be
Force -2). Of course a dormant free spirit could see what the characters do
and - if very memorable haunt them later if it learns they were time
travelers. Or if you want them to meet a Force 1 or 2 spirit in that time
that is the same Force 11+ they know in 2060....

So is this a Christmas adventure?

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Burning Avatar)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Sun Dec 16 13:05:01 2001
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


On 16-Dec-01 Dan Turek wrote:

> When is 1400 a.C? I think its a typo, but not having read the books
> I'm not going to assume anything.

I ment after Christ - is the short form another?

> Non-awakened powers shouldn't change, and without magic to
> retrograde the DNA metahumans and SURGE mutants will stay
> physically the same. I would say magickers still have Magic, but
> at a time of serious Magic Ebb (Target: Awakened Lands pg 100)
> and a rating of 6 to 12 is not out of the question. A place with
> a background count advantageous to the person could help offset
> this - so if they are in Ebb Rating 10 and at Stonehenge at its
> height of glory (say rating 4) the Ebb for a druid of that sect
> would only be Ebb Rating 6. High enough that people born in that
> time wouldn't practice magic, but IE or other types could at
> severe penalties.

Ok lets go into detail here. I don't have T:AL, but a Grade 2 initated
magican, with Magic 8. I don't think there will be any positive
background count, more likely negative ones because of the 100
years of war.

So due to the Ebb his Magic-rating will be lowered by the Ebblevel. Do
T:AS mention the level for this time or is it generally 10 for the 5th
world?

> I would decrease Physical Adepts magic ratings by the Ebb Rating,
> and do the same to the Force of any spirit or magic item, and if
> it reduces the rating to less than 1 the spirit cannot DO anything
> at all other than lay dormant and wait for the Awakening. Powers
> of awakened critters, etc. would also get reduced equally, and
> since most have an Essence of 6 they would lose their supernatural
> abilities while keeping their appearance.
>
> This means summoning a Force 8 something at Stonehenge in the above
> example would be like summoning a Force 14 spirit, but it would only
> be Force 2, and would dissipate/go dormant if forced to leave the
> area (as it would then be Force -2). Of course a dormant free spirit
> could see what the characters do and - if very memorable haunt
> them later if it learns they were time travelers. Or if you want
> them to meet a Force 1 or 2 spirit in that time that is the same
> Force 11+ they know in 2060....

Evil idea - I'll keep it in mind :)

> So is this a Christmas adventure?

Yes it will be the one I'll run during our Christmassession :)

- - Burning Avatar

- ----------------------------------
Ona galad a naur i lumbulo

BA's data haven
http://home.t-online.de/home/tobias.d/srmain.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.1e-SuSE (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Weitere Infos: siehe http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE8HNwAZGcehYJc4AcRAsXHAJ9ntafiefYziSljxoB8w25YjCrqKgCfVs1G
tKv41YcPOP1SnphZYJwjldA=FPhS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Sun Dec 16 13:05:04 2001
According to Dan Turek, on Sun, 16 Dec 2001 the word on the street was...

> When is 1400 a.C? I think its a typo, but not having read the books I'm
> not going to assume anything.

It most likely stands for "after Christ," like "BC" for "Before
Christ."
The problem with you English-language types is that consistency is too
often lacking altogether :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gak The Great)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Sun Dec 16 13:50:03 2001
Sometime, somwhere down the timeline, Burning Avatar whispered:
> On 16-Dec-01 Dan Turek wrote:
>
> > When is 1400 a.C? I think its a typo, but not having read the books
> > I'm not going to assume anything.
>
> I ment after Christ - is the short form another?

AD = Anno Domini, or Year of the Lord, and yes, it's inconsistent :)

>
> > Non-awakened powers shouldn't change, and without magic to
> > retrograde the DNA metahumans and SURGE mutants will stay
> > physically the same. I would say magickers still have Magic, but
> > at a time of serious Magic Ebb (Target: Awakened Lands pg 100)
> > and a rating of 6 to 12 is not out of the question. A place with
> > a background count advantageous to the person could help offset
> > this - so if they are in Ebb Rating 10 and at Stonehenge at its
> > height of glory (say rating 4) the Ebb for a druid of that sect
> > would only be Ebb Rating 6. High enough that people born in that
> > time wouldn't practice magic, but IE or other types could at
> > severe penalties.
>
> Ok lets go into detail here. I don't have T:AL, but a Grade 2 initated
> magican, with Magic 8. I don't think there will be any positive
> background count, more likely negative ones because of the 100
> years of war.
>
> So due to the Ebb his Magic-rating will be lowered by the Ebblevel. Do
> T:AS mention the level for this time or is it generally 10 for the 5th
> world?
>

How about this: in general, the MagickLevel is -10 to normal 2060 count, and
the magicker can't do things without a large amount of effort. But at places
with background count, there's at least _some_ MagickLevel so even though
the magicker (ooh, I like the word; dunno why, but I do) will need some trys
to find out the particularities of this background, it wil become easier by
some, even when it's normally harder for him to do it (like many deaths).

Just so it won't be _to_ nice:
If (s)he isn't careful, he might turn to the Dark Side and become crueler or
slightly psychotic or phobia of the dead or.. but you get the idea (I hope)

-- GAK THE GREAT

"Ein Ring, sie zu knechten, sie alle zu finden,
Ins Dunkel zu treiben und ewig zu binden,
Im Lande Mordor, wo die Schatten drohn."
Sauron aus "Herr der Ringe von J.R.R. Tolkien
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Sun Dec 16 13:55:01 2001
In a message dated 12/16/2001 1:09:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Gurth@******.nl writes:

<< > When is 1400 a.C? I think its a typo, but not having read the books I'm
> not going to assume anything.

It most likely stands for "after Christ," like "BC" for "Before
Christ."
The problem with you English-language types is that consistency is too
often lacking altogether :) >>

That's probably and most likely it, in which case the correct abbreviation is
A.D., which stands for Anno Domini ("In the Year of Our Lord")...which takes
us back to the whole inconsistency thing...::grins::
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Mon Dec 17 05:55:01 2001
--Apple-Mail-733116423-4
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
format=flowed;
charset=us-ascii


On Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 07:57 , KiltedJamesman@***.com wrote:

In a message dated 12/16/2001 1:09:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Gurth@******.nl writes:

<< > When is 1400 a.C? I think its a typo, but not having read the books
I'm
not going to assume anything.

It most likely stands for "after Christ," like "BC" for "Before
Christ."
The problem with you English-language types is that consistency is too
often lacking altogether :) >>

That's probably and most likely it, in which case the correct
abbreviation is
A.D., which stands for Anno Domini ("In the Year of Our Lord")...which
takes
us back to the whole inconsistency thing...::grins::


Oh come on! It is not inconsistent. B.C. is an English abbreviation.
A.D. is a Latin abbreviation. The only inconsistency in English is to
know what language to use! :-)

--Scott


--Apple-Mail-733116423-4
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/enriched;
charset=us-ascii


On Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 07:57 , KiltedJamesman@***.com wrote:


<color><param>0000,0000,DEDE</param>In a message dated 12/16/2001
1:09:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Gurth@******.nl writes:


<<<< > When is 1400 a.C? I think its a typo, but not having read the
books I'm

</color><color><param>0000,6363,1212</param>not going to assume
anything.

</color><color><param>0000,0000,DEDE</param>

It most likely stands for "after Christ," like "BC" for "Before
Christ."

The problem with you English-language types is that consistency is too

often lacking altogether :) >>


That's probably and most likely it, in which case the correct
abbreviation is

A.D., which stands for Anno Domini ("In the Year of Our Lord")...which
takes

us back to the whole inconsistency thing...::grins::


</color>

Oh come on! It is not inconsistent. B.C. is an English abbreviation.
A.D. is a Latin abbreviation. The only inconsistency in English is to
know what language to use! :-)


--Scott



--Apple-Mail-733116423-4--
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Mon Dec 17 07:00:01 2001
Tobias Diekershoff writes:

> 2) The targeted time is around 1400 a.C. - How will the awakened bodies
> of the characters react in this manaless time? That the magican will
> not be able to cast any spells or summon spirits is clear, but what
> about elves and orks? Will they transform back into human shape or will
> they be unaffacted atall?

I'd pretty much go with Harlequin's spiel in Harlequin's back for this.
According to H, as the mana level rises, there will be more mana around.
With more mana around, those capable of manipulating it will be able to do
more. Conversely, I would expect, with less mana around, those capable of
manipulating it will not be able to do as much. This isn't to say that they
couldn't do anything, just that doing things has a lesser effect (or,
conversely, doing the same thing requires more effort). Those rules from
T:AL sound good for this.

Regarding metahumans, I'd probably also go with H. According to him,
particular awakened creatures require a certain mana level to enter the
world. As such, elves didn't appear until 2011, and orks and trolls until
2020 or so. But once in the world, such critters can survive with a much
lower level of mana. This implies that below a particular critical threshold
existance is not possible, but the theory is in regard to the Enemy, rather
than matehumans. I would imagine that, seeing as IEs existed throughout the
5th world, that dwarves and elves could survive at 5th world mana levels
with no problem. Orks and trolls, however, are not so guaranteed, as they
need a higher level of magic to exist in the first place. OTOH, on the 6000
year or so magic cycle, I'd say that the 10 years difference in their
apperarance is negligable, and they'd be fine, too.

On the topic of paradoxes, I'd watch out for PC "get rich quick" scams.
Something like buying critical real essate that will, in 2060, be extremely
valuable, and deeding it to their ancestors. Or finding an item (eg a
painting of a great master) that is not especially valuable in 1400 AD, but
that will be worth extreme amounts in 2060, and hiding it away someplace (eg
burying it 100 m underground at a location that they know will not undergo
development in the next 600 years, or something).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GE d- s++:-- a25 C++ US++>+++ P+ L+>++ E- W+ N++ o@ K- w+(--) O-@ M--
V- PS+ PE- Y+ PGP-@>++ t+ 5 X+>+++ R++ !tv(--) b+ DI+++@ D G+
e++>++++$ h- r++>+++ y->+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wallace Blade)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Mon Dec 17 11:55:00 2001
Jonathan said:
>I'm going on the logic that if you travel to the past, change it from what
>happened according to "your" present and then move forward in time again
>(return to the present) you'd in fact travel to the present of the altered
>timeline...the only way to get back to the original timeline being going
>back to just before you changed whatever you changed and stopping
>yourself...

Yup. Its explained very well in the Back to the Future trilogy.

>Considering non-awakened characters can be metahumans racial attributes
>wouldn't reverse with magic loss. And I consider magic more within rather
>than without since if magic was solely an outside force changing your body
>wouldn't mean squat. However as is when you alter your body with cyberware
>you lose essence which negatively affects your magic rating.
>
>If races could revert back to pure humans then you'd find null magic zones
>in the present and send people there to be "cured" since it was that one
>sole event that started the transformations...now days those races are not
>"transformed humans" but actually bred races.

There are no "no-magic zones". Problem is that the mana level ain't high
enough to support the nature of metas. Most affected would be those that
SURGEd (need more mana level), Trolls/orcs and, finally, dwarves/elves (need
the less). And, as has been said, they would retreat back to human form just
as they once changes; maybe, though, elves/dwarves wouldn't turn back, since
they were born already changed...

>True enough more so riggers than deckers.

Well, maybe the decker has the vital "Historic enciclopedia" he can check,
since most runners won't be very put on the details on medieval life...;)


Wallace Blade
Sepherim (Dagger in sperethiel)
"The Matrix was made to serve,
but only obeys those of us that love her."
Nodo 666: http://www16.brinkster.com/sepherim


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos es la manera más sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus fotos:
http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wallace Blade)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Mon Dec 17 12:05:04 2001
Gurth said:
>Best proof: semi-ballistic flights. Metahumans on those don't de-Goblinize
>or un-UGE a third of the way up, only to go through the transformation
>again two thirds of the way to the destination...

Well, maybe they didn't give 'em time enough... IIRC, there was a discussion
on Dumpshock about what happened if vampires were taken to space, and the
conclusion was that they would revert to humans until they returned. Then,
that should happen with metas too, right?

Wallace Blade
Sepherim (Dagger in sperethiel)
"The Matrix was made to serve,
but only obeys those of us that love her."
Nodo 666: http://www16.brinkster.com/sepherim


_________________________________________________________________
Hable con sus amigos en línea, pruebe MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.es
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Burning Avatar)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Mon Dec 17 12:55:01 2001
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


On 17-Dec-01 Damion Milliken wrote:

> On the topic of paradoxes, I'd watch out for PC "get rich quick"
> scams. Something like buying critical real essate that will, in
> 2060, be extremely valuable, and deeding it to their ancestors.
> Or finding an item (eg a painting of a great master) that is not
> especially valuable in 1400 AD, but that will be worth extreme
> amounts in 2060, and hiding it away someplace (eg burying it 100
> m underground at a location that they know will not undergo
> development in the next 600 years, or something).

This is a problem, and it's none. They'll only have a few days to do
the job in the middle of a civilwar in the medivial france. Even if
they find the time to search something worthful and hide it. They don't
know the area, and if they hide something I don't want they own in 2060
I can tell them somebody found it before they came back ;-)

- - Burning Avatar

- ----------------------------------
Ona galad a naur i lumbulo

BA's data haven
http://home.t-online.de/home/tobias.d/srmain.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.1e-SuSE (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Weitere Infos: siehe http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE8HizBZGcehYJc4AcRAk4WAJ44u5pssbohH80krLav0dRRLoGevQCgpyR1
c9Puq062m7yL2KVaVxDg4H8=jOJE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Mon Dec 17 13:05:01 2001
> This is a problem, and it's none. They'll only have a few days to do
> the job in the middle of a civilwar in the medivial france. Even if
> they find the time to search something worthful and hide it. They don't
> know the area, and if they hide something I don't want they own in 2060
> I can tell them somebody found it before they came back ;-)
>

Go through a soldiers bockets find a few old coinage. In that day it might
buy a flagon of ale. in 2060 it could buy france :) And don't bother burying
it, take it with you. :)
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gak The Great)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Mon Dec 17 14:20:01 2001
Sometime, somwhere down the timeline, Damion Milliken whispered:


> Tobias Diekershoff writes:
<snip>
> On the topic of paradoxes, I'd watch out for PC "get rich quick" scams.
> Something like buying critical real essate that will, in 2060, be
extremely
> valuable, and deeding it to their ancestors. Or finding an item (eg a
> painting of a great master) that is not especially valuable in 1400 AD,
but
> that will be worth extreme amounts in 2060, and hiding it away someplace
(eg
> burying it 100 m underground at a location that they know will not undergo
> development in the next 600 years, or something).
>
For problems like these, or other time paradoxes, use the
time-paradox-is-impossible theorie of Doniger in Timeline: Theoretically
possible, but _something_ will come in its way: somebody sees them burying
their treasure, and decides to dig it out. When meeting/assainating King
Louis XIV, their shot only wounds him and he recovers...or they are killed
before they can do such an outrageous thing... Gotta love Crichton :)

-- GAK THE GREAT

"Ein Ring, sie zu knechten, sie alle zu finden,
Ins Dunkel zu treiben und ewig zu binden,
Im Lande Mordor, wo die Schatten drohn."
Sauron aus "Herr der Ringe von J.R.R. Tolkien
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Mon Dec 17 14:20:04 2001
--- Jonathan <jhogan@**********.nf.net> wrote:
> Go through a soldiers bockets find a few old coinage. In that day it
might buy a flagon of ale. in 2060 it could buy france :) And don't bother
burying it, take it with you. :)
>

No dice, J-man. The guy on the Travelling Road Show would take one look
at it and say, "Hmmm... looks like it was made approximately two years
ago..." If it ain't aged, it ain't worth nothin'.

Now, bringing back a soldier... that'd be cool. :)

====-Boondocker

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gak The Great)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Mon Dec 17 14:25:01 2001
Sometime, somwhere down the timeline, Jonathan whispered:


> Go through a soldiers bockets find a few old coinage. In that day it might
> buy a flagon of ale. in 2060 it could buy france :) And don't bother
burying
> it, take it with you. :)

Nah.. some medieval coins aren't really worth that much. Say their double
worth in gold or the like. Sure, you'd get some NuYen, but to get rich,
you'd have to be REALLY lucky.

BTW, what the .. is SURGE?
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Mon Dec 17 14:30:01 2001
> No dice, J-man. The guy on the Travelling Road Show would take one look
> at it and say, "Hmmm... looks like it was made approximately two years
> ago..." If it ain't aged, it ain't worth nothin'.

Then they'd see HOW it was made. Minting practices differed back then
compared to todays minting practices. Plus the content of coin materials is
also in question, again this differs from then and now.
Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Mon Dec 17 14:30:03 2001
> BTW, what the .. is SURGE?
>

Surge? Beats me.... :)
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Mon Dec 17 18:05:01 2001
In one of the games that we played in (Sr in the year 3061, in an Alien vs
Predator style game where earth was a waste land, the moon was inhabited,
Mars was the major planet and Corps still ruled) we went back to Earthdawn.
We were supposed to help an immortal (who'd taken us back with him) stop
his wife from dying (being assassinated). The GM wasn't really worrying
about the paradox thing so we fixed it for him. Since the Immortal (which
wasn't an elf) was going back to the futur after this and his wife wasn't
immortal, we convinced him that we should kidnap her, make it look like she
was killed, that way he gets her instead of his old self. In other words,
He'd "killed" his wife all along. Paradox avoided. We then used his time
powers to go back a year, and land on a planet wher the Predators had
mysteriously disappeared from a year earlier, and asked thme to leave so
that we could use their planet for a free years worth of training and
production. (we were trying to stop the destruction of the solar system by
invading symbiots and didn't have enough guns. The predators were
"friendly" since our characters had something to do with a prophesy)
So the basic idea? Fate. They can't CHANGE history because they ARE
history. Why did the hindenberg really blow up? Some shadowrunners from
3051 got trigger happy. This requires some jiggling as a GM, since Fate
will intervene if they try and kill Hitler, OR Hitler would have been dead
all along and the Germans always had a replacement.

As for the Metahuman thing, ELves and Dwarves would be fine (Spike Births)
but trolls and orks may have problem since they spontaneously changes over
many days. Though as any Biochemist will tell you, once a structure or gene
has had its affect its very hard to change it. Although this is exactly why
the Orks may change back, since they changed from the original Human
structure in the first place.
Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Tue Dec 18 06:05:01 2001
According to Jonathan, on Mon, 17 Dec 2001 the word on the street was...

> Go through a soldiers bockets find a few old coinage. In that day it
> might buy a flagon of ale. in 2060 it could buy france :) And don't
> bother burying it, take it with you. :)

Problem here is that the coins would not be that valuable by 2060 (medieval
or roman coins aren't worth billions of dollars today) and that they would
most likely appear to be forgeries in 2060: they are too new, and show no
signs of having been in the ground for 600 years...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Tue Dec 18 06:05:12 2001
According to Jonathan, on Mon, 17 Dec 2001 the word on the street was...

> Then they'd see HOW it was made. Minting practices differed back then
> compared to todays minting practices. Plus the content of coin materials
> is also in question, again this differs from then and now.

All things a good forger will consider. Think of the guy who forged a 16th
century painting, supposedly by one of the great masters of the time (I
don't remember which one), by buying a relatively cheap painting of the
same age, stripping the paint off, and painting a new scene onto the old
canvas using paints mixed the way they did in the 16th century. IIRC it
wasn't discovered to be a fake until the forger admitted it himself.

Another good example would be Hitler's diaries that appeared about 15 years
ago, but which turned out to be an elaborate fake. Admittedly, part of the
reason people were fooled there was the fact that nobody believed someone
would forge a complete set of diaries, but the technical qualities of the
forgery were very high too, as I recall.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Wed Dec 19 21:50:01 2001
>From: Tobias.D@********.de (Burning Avatar)
>Subject: RE: Timetraveling
>
>Ok lets go into detail here. I don't have T:AL, but a Grade 2 initated
>magican, with Magic 8. I don't think there will be any positive
>background count, more likely negative ones because of the 100
>years of war.
>
>So due to the Ebb his Magic-rating will be lowered by the Ebblevel. Do
>T:AS mention the level for this time or is it generally 10 for the 5th
>world?

No, I made it up since Space is about a 10.
Generally I would make sure it was 6 or more before 2000 AD. This keeps
people born before then from manifesting their powers. Earthdawn makes it
seem that calculating the mana level is very hard and inexact except for
when it begins, peaks, and ends. If it is a time when emotions over the
globe are high it could Spike (which may be what happens in part during Year
of the Comet).

Oh, and to clarify Ebb doesn't lower Magic rating (though it should for
PhysAds IMO) but raises the Force for Drain and lowers the Force something
that something cast/summoned is manifested. The main difference is the TN
for successes and drain.

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Message no. 31
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Timetraveling
Date: Thu Dec 20 19:00:01 2001
If you want to do a 'time war' game, you might also consider taking a look at
how the RPG 'Feng Shui: Shadowfist' does it. Time is elastic, which is to
say, given the chance it'll twitch a little in order to make things come out
the same. Kill Hitler, and another man will be on the scene -- Aldor Kilter,
say -- to take his place, do the same things, and thus time is generally
preserved. More personal events may have peculiar side-effects: killing your
grandfather means that your 'real' name is no longer Lang, it's Chang --
something called 'lateral reincarnation'. Approximately the same history and
background, not exactly the same.

Pick up a copy if you can; a major part of the game is the time war, so
they've given a good amount of thought to the topic.



The Wyrm Ouroboros
'Half Russian mathemetician,
half Silicon Valley code freak.'

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Timetraveling, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!