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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Kevin Harrison)
Subject: Tir Paladins
Date: Wed Sep 26 17:55:01 2001
The thread about paladins reminded me... was anything clarified about the
Paladins from Tir Tairngire? Last I heard about them was the source book
of the same name.

In fact, are we ever going to see an update on the Tir? There was a brief
mention in Tir na nOg, but I haven't heard much about it since.
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Tir Paladins
Date: Wed Sep 26 18:05:01 2001
>The thread about paladins reminded me... was anything clarified about the
>Paladins from Tir Tairngire? Last I heard about them was the source book
>of the same name.

>In fact, are we ever going to see an update on the Tir? There was a brief
>mention in Tir na nOg, but I haven't heard much about it since.

Corperate Punishment has the runners going to Portland in one of the runs.
Portland is in the Tir....
In liu of a spoiler space, I'll leave you to figure it out.
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Shane)
Subject: Tir Paladins
Date: Wed Sep 26 21:00:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Valeu John EMFA"
Subject: RE: Tir Paladins


> >The thread about paladins reminded me... was anything clarified about the
> >Paladins from Tir Tairngire? Last I heard about them was the source book
> >of the same name.
>
> >In fact, are we ever going to see an update on the Tir? There was a brief
> >mention in Tir na nOg, but I haven't heard much about it since.
>
> Corperate Punishment has the runners going to Portland in one of the runs.
> Portland is in the Tir....
> In liu of a spoiler space, I'll leave you to figure it out.

Hmm it's nice having internet access back, next time I'll remember to pay
the bill ;-)

Anyway, there is an update for Tir Tairngire in the upcoming Shadows of
North America book

-Tamino
"All Too Easy!"
sjwinzar@*********.com.au
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Kesh)
Subject: Tir Paladins
Date: Thu Sep 27 15:25:01 2001
On Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:00:03 +1000, Shane wrote:

>Anyway, there is an update for Tir Tairngire in the upcoming Shadows of
>North America book
>
>-Tamino

Ahh, that's what I was hoping to hear! :) Thanks.
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Charlie Martineau)
Subject: tir paladins
Date: Sat Sep 29 23:25:01 2001
Ok anyone have any info on Tir paladins, besides that they are male elven
magic users who work for Tir Nobles, like guides for making one or url's to
get info

~ Severd Angel




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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Hahns Shin)
Subject: tir paladins
Date: Sun Sep 30 13:10:00 2001
Most of the information about the Paladins comes from the book Tir
Tairngire and random scraps of information throughout the sourcebooks
and novels... there is no section in any book that says "How to make a
Tir Paladin" (this surprises me, because MitS and Tir Na Nog described
how to make Elven Pathers, who are only supposed to be NPCs anyway).
The stats in the various runs I've seen are contradictory, other than
the fact that they are major bad asses. Suffice to say, creating one
would be like creating HMSS or Black Ops CIA agents... in my campaign,
I probably would veto the creation of one right off the bat, but hey,
it's your campaign. Actually, that's not entirely true... on a
particularly vile mini-campaign we ran, one of the characters was an
undercover Tir Paladin who sold out the rest of the characters at the
end to the elves.

They are mostly adepts, with some full and aspected mages and a few
rare cybermonkeys. Paladins tend to have allegiances with one or more
of the Tir Princes, and they are often involved in the Machiavellian
(ooo, million dollar essay word) intrigues of the Tir High Court.
Basically, if the majority of runners out there ever ran into a
Paladin, they can kiss their non-existent SIN goodbye... they are
dealing with powers far greater than any of them can imagine. The
various times my PCs ran into them, they only managed to kill one (out
of several campaigns), and that was a renegade Paladin who was being
hunted by other Paladins and Tir Ghosts; after the PCs killed him, the
other elves then proceeded to try to slaughter the PCs. DocWagon
arrived soon thereafter. My PCs hate the Paladins with a vengeance
because they know the arrival of Paladins means the GM (yours truly)
is railroading them along some evil plotline.

My question, of course, (it has been a while) is the difference
between the Paladins and the Ghosts. Ghosts are the Secret Black Ops
military units that the Tir uses to secure its covert interests, while
Paladins are more like the elven mage equivalent of 007. Am I correct?
Or am I smoking something?

As for character creation, you could use the Face archetype with a
little dash of magic thrown in. Anyone remember the stats for Speren
(he is in the 2057 election run where you steal a magical key focus
from the Illuminates of the New Dawn)?

Hahns Shin, MS II
Budding cybersurgeon
"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already
know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be
killed."
-G. K. Chesterton
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lubzens Opher)
Subject: tir paladins
Date: Mon Oct 1 13:25:02 2001
Hans Shin mumbled:
>My question, of course, (it has been a while) is the difference
>between the Paladins and the Ghosts. Ghosts are the Secret Black Ops
>military units that the Tir uses to secure its covert interests, while
>Paladins are more like the elven mage equivalent of 007. Am I correct?
>Or am I smoking something?

The way I understand it is that the Paladins are sworn directly to the
service of a noble(or maybe only a Prince), while the Ghosts are a black
ops unit of the Tir military.

Opher Lubzens
-every light casts shadows
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Melina York)
Subject: tir paladins
Date: Mon Oct 1 15:40:01 2001
From: Hahns Shin


>Suffice to say, creating one
>would be like creating HMSS or Black Ops CIA agents... in my campaign,
>I probably would veto the creation of one right off the bat, but hey,
>it's your campaign.

In my campaign, just about everyone works for some dark nefarious power (the
UCAS, one or the other Tir nations, some AAA corps). Some are unaware of
their affiliations, others embody the phrase "cloak and dagger". None are
entirely antagonistic to each other, rather they are often racing toward the
same goal (each for their own master), alternately obfuscating and
co-operating.

My point is, I don't believe for a second that Tir Paladins are the big
nasty boogedie-boo that they're made out to be. Or any other covert-ops unit
for that matter. Even a single gutterpunk with a Streetline Special can kill
a crack team if the conditions are right. Names and titles mean squat.

Most members of my group have decided (whether through arrogance or sheer
insanity) that there can't possibly be anyone better than themselves. To
that end, they've gone about fulfilling their delusions, and there really
are very few black-ops teams that are better (aside from another game's char
maybe). With enough karma, and a lot of dedication, I think it is frankly
impossible to create a force whose individual members are going to be
consistently and forever better than what a player can achieve. If that were
true, why continue trying to improve?

Which brings me to my real reason for posting:
I've been playing SR since its inception, with the same character. Most of
the members of the group I run/ play with have been playing for a few years,
with several newbies drifting in and out. I've been wanting to know how long
most people play the same char, in real time.
How long have you played the same char?
Do you think that the amount of Karma accumulated actually diminishes the
enjoyment of the game playing a more experienced char? (I don't)
And do you think that there should be groups that will always be better than
what a player can create/ achieve? (Lofwyr, Harlequin, and the like excepted
of course)
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: tir paladins
Date: Tue Oct 2 05:40:01 2001
Melina York writes:

> My point is, I don't believe for a second that Tir Paladins are the big
> nasty boogedie-boo that they're made out to be. Or any other covert-ops unit
> for that matter. Even a single gutterpunk with a Streetline Special can kill
> a crack team if the conditions are right. Names and titles mean squat.

OTOH, support and Intelligence (as in information) mean very much. Most
Special Ops type organisations not only have quite well trained personnel
(but, as has been said, they do not all have to be major hoop kickers
statistics wise), but they have exceptional planning, organisation, and
logistical support.

> Most members of my group have decided (whether through arrogance or sheer
> insanity) that there can't possibly be anyone better than themselves. To
> that end, they've gone about fulfilling their delusions, and there really
> are very few black-ops teams that are better (aside from another game's char
> maybe). With enough karma, and a lot of dedication, I think it is frankly
> impossible to create a force whose individual members are going to be
> consistently and forever better than what a player can achieve. If that were
> true, why continue trying to improve?

Shadowrunners will (probably, and especially if they are _shadowrunners_, not
undercover XXXX agents) never have the kind of support and backing that
Special Ops types will have. Top Aztech agents will have real time satellite
imagery down to 20cm resolution over half the city they are operating in.
Don't expect to out manouevre them, even if you are driving a half a million
nuyen, hotted up, modded out, bad to the bone, born to be wild BullDog
StepVan from the 7th plane of hell. Sure, you and your shadowrunning
chummers might kick some major hoop and have some top class gear. The
Special Ops guys you're dealing with will probably have good gear and
excellent training, but it may or may not match up on a person by person
bassi with your team. However, what they've got that you're lacking is an
office full of 500 datapushers, analysists, information specialists, and
other logistical and intelligence support personnel at their disposal. It's
a different kind of ball game.

> Which brings me to my real reason for posting:
> I've been playing SR since its inception, with the same character. Most of
> the members of the group I run/ play with have been playing for a few years,
> with several newbies drifting in and out. I've been wanting to know how long
> most people play the same char, in real time.
> How long have you played the same char?
> Do you think that the amount of Karma accumulated actually diminishes the
> enjoyment of the game playing a more experienced char? (I don't)

Most of my players fall into one of two categories: the long term and short
term types. The former seem to like their characters to live forever. They
accumulate massive double digit Karma Pools, and have character that survive
50 runs over 5 years game and real time. The latter seem to change characters
every 3 months or so, and if they get a Karma Pool over 6 they think it's
HUGE. These players seem to like experimenting with different character
concepts, and have fun trying different character personalities and styles.

> And do you think that there should be groups that will always be better than
> what a player can create/ achieve? (Lofwyr, Harlequin, and the like excepted
> of course)

Of course. OTOH, on a numbers basis, I agree with you that PC X can probably
have higher statistics than any NPC of similar type. However, PCs are
shadowrunners. Even a low end Special Ops team with 1/2 the stats and skills
of the PCs, and worse equipment has 10 times the logistical and intelligence
backing that any shadowrunner ought to be able to muster up. If you use this
right, as such groups most certainly would, they will be more than a match
for any shadowrunner team.

And, like you said, even a lowly ganger with a Streetline Special can, in
the right circumstances, take out an entire Special Ops team. Likewise, even
a lowly cop or newbie intelligence operative can clean up an entire team of
shadowrunners, even if their average Attributes are double figures and their
Karma Pools exceed their summed Skill Points. The same principle applies.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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