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Message no. 1
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:13:06 GMT
A character is from this place. (A 'nobleman' elf.).

I don't have any good descriptions on what that place is.
Could someone help me out a bit? I've heard it's the Sidhe to the
Irish, that it's a feudal kingdom (?!?) and a few other things.. something
to do about discrimination etc.

Basically, what is the place, and why? (Why's fairly important).

Also, what is the Ghosts, Paladins etc.?

Disclaimer: I know we're not going to post sourcebooks here. I'd like a few
pointers, not the whole story. Only enough to add a little more color without
going against things that could crop up later. Ok?
Message no. 2
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:04:13 -0500
Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO> said:
>
> A character is from this place. (A 'nobleman' elf.).
>
> I don't have any good descriptions on what that place is.
> Could someone help me out a bit? I've heard it's the Sidhe to the
> Irish, that it's a feudal kingdom (?!?) and a few other things.. something
> to do about discrimination etc.
>
> Basically, what is the place, and why? (Why's fairly important).

Here's some info that everyone might want to know. If you have specific
questions, I can probably look them up in the TT sourcebook.

The basics of What are covered in the beginning of the Basic Book. It is
a nation consisting mainly of Elves (75 or 85%) that broke off from the
NAN in the 2030's IIRC. There's a fair percentage of dwarves, a lower
percentage of humans and orcs, and a small percentage of trolls and others.
Non-elves tend to get shafted in a lot of things, and there is often
blatant discrimination against non-elves.

The nation as a whole is more "magical" than most others, as they accept
magic and promote its use. There are shamans and possibly druids, but
there are a LOT of hermetic mages (at least compared to other nations).

The nation is very class oriented, with the following classes:
Gentry (lowest class, can't own land)
Chivalry (still commoners, but one step above the Gentry)
Nobles (Lord and Lady, lowest Noble class, can own land)
Comital (Counts and Countesses)
Ducal (Dukes and Duchesses)
Royal (the people at the top)

There's also a Council or Princes, and the Crown Prince (IIRC). They
run everything. The higher classes get tax breaks or direct government
support, as well as free land.

Some of the people at the top include Lugh Surehand (Crown Prince),
Sean Laverty (from the early ShadowRun novels), Ehran the Scribe (IE),
and Lofwyr (the Dragon).

The official language is Sperethiel, though a lot of people don't speak
it very well. It is a very complex language that "couldn't have
developped in such a short time" according to the experts. It is probably
an ED language introduced by the IEs.

The nation likes rituals; most elves get a ritual when they are born, and
a ritual after they turn 18 (they get to change their own name). There
is also a Rite of Progression which is a set of physical and mental tests
that are used to determine someone's social rank. It is required for people
above the Gentry in order to be "confirmed" into their rank, but anyone can
take it as people do move up and down in rank.

They are very careful about people coming and going. Only the higher nobles
can enter or leave the country when they want, everyone else must get a
visa of some sort. They are also careful about money or other resources
leaving the country. There get nasty about border jumpers, and there are
only a few places to enter or leave. There's only one airport large enough
to handle really big planes (suborbitals and up I think), and that's at
Portland (the capitol). There's a national airline company, and they are
the only ones that can fly into the Tir.

> Also, what is the Ghosts, Paladins etc.?

Don't recall exactly. I think the Paladins are the border guard. The
Ghosts may be some Special Forces group.

> Disclaimer: I know we're not going to post sourcebooks here. I'd like a few
> pointers, not the whole story. Only enough to add a little more color without
> going against things that could crop up later. Ok?

OK. If you want to look, you might be able to find the sourcebook at a
hobby store that carries used stuff. My GM found a copy about a week ago.

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-
Message no. 3
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:41:39 PST
>Here's some info that everyone might want to know. If you have
specific
>questions, I can probably look them up in the TT sourcebook.

Likewise, it's been a while since I read TT, so all of this is IIRC.

>
>The basics of What are covered in the beginning of the Basic Book. It
is
>a nation consisting mainly of Elves (75 or 85%) that broke off from the
>NAN in the 2030's IIRC.

Close. I believe it started out as a piece of land that was to be a
haven for all metahumans. But once they became their own land, elves
quickly began to run the show.

[snip- no argument here]

>Some of the people at the top include Lugh Surehand (Crown Prince),
>Sean Laverty (from the early ShadowRun novels), Ehran the Scribe (IE),
>and Lofwyr (the Dragon).

It's highly rumored (and I believe it) that Surehand is just a
puppet. The bigger argument is who has their hand in the puppet.
Personally, I believe it's Ehran the Scribe. But shouldn't get too
political, you just wanted Tir Tairngire 101.
And just to avoid confusion, Lofwyr is a Great Dragon(but I'm sure
you knew that). <G>

>
>The official language is Sperethiel, though a lot of people don't speak
>it very well. It is a very complex language that "couldn't have
>developped in such a short time" according to the experts. It is
probably
>an ED language introduced by the IEs.

Probable, but not likely. I believe there are some elves who aren't
immortal, but retain (or develope) 'racial memories'. This, and Gaelic,
may be the roots of Sperethiel.
The reason I don't believe the IEs introducing it is the many times
that they would speak a language like Sperethiel, but none of the
'younger' elves could understand it.
But, this is all IMC. I'm sure most GMs will disagree.



>> Also, what is the Ghosts, Paladins etc.?
>
>Don't recall exactly. I think the Paladins are the border guard. The
>Ghosts may be some Special Forces group.

IIRC, the Paladins are the border guard, but also serve as the
cerimonial "royal" guard as well. Most are high-level PhyAds, I think.
Ghosts, I believe, are the equivlant of the Special Forces, but I
also recall them being known to do spy work as well. Again, most are
either magic users of some calibre- but not all.

>
>> Disclaimer: I know we're not going to post sourcebooks here. I'd like
a few
>> pointers, not the whole story. Only enough to add a little more color
without
>> going against things that could crop up later. Ok?

Why? So things can go easy for you? Sorry, chummer, you mess with
the Tir, and you messed wit' for life.
If you are some Ghost that went AWOL, it would make an intresting
game inteed if you are caught up with some Ghosts or other Shadowrunners
hired by the Tir.
I'm sorry if we can't trim the proverbial fat off your character's
background.


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"And all I lov'd, I lov'd alone."
-E.A. Poe


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 21:39:21 +0100
The Vagabond said on 11:41/ 9 Mar 98...

> >The basics of What are covered in the beginning of the Basic Book. It is
> >a nation consisting mainly of Elves (75 or 85%) that broke off from the
> >NAN in the 2030's IIRC.

12:00 GMT, 1 May 2035, to be precise.

> Close. I believe it started out as a piece of land that was to be a
> haven for all metahumans. But once they became their own land, elves
> quickly began to run the show.

Actually, the theory in the TT sourcebook goes that the EI manipulated
events before the Awakening so they could get a particular piece of land
(Tir Tairngire) once magic came back.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I want to see the ground give way, I want to watch it all go down.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 5
From: AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 18:33:47 EST
In a message dated 98-03-09 11:16:42 EST, you write:

> A character is from this place. (A 'nobleman' elf.).
>
> I don't have any good descriptions on what that place is.
> Could someone help me out a bit? I've heard it's the Sidhe to the
> Irish, that it's a feudal kingdom (?!?) and a few other things.. something
> to do about discrimination etc.
>
> Basically, what is the place, and why? (Why's fairly important).

Tir Tairngire is the what is located roughly in what is now the state of
Oregon ... it was obtained from the NAN through deceit and treachery by Ehran
and several of the other leaders of the Tir within a few short years after the
USA was split apart ...

There are elections held for the various Prince positions ... though like the
old Soviet Union these are largely just showcases and nothing more than window
dressing to keep the populace happy in some fashion ...

In order to become recognized as an adult (in certain circles), one must first
go through the Rite of Passage which is basically a wilderness survival test
for a couple of days ... then there are the yearly games where people can
compete to become members in Tir society ... and depending on your placement
within the society also determines your new social status ... and, yes, this
does mean that if you end up lower than what you were before that you are now
at that lower status rank ... though this is also the same way to become a
citizen of Tir also ...

The city of Portland is where most business coming in and out of Tir goes
through ... it is a walled in city that is heavily patrolled and is basically
in my pov the Tir's version of Yomi, as the Tir does have a bias against Non-
Elves period.

Just outside of the city of Portland is one of the lairs of Lofwyr (who is
also on the Council of Princes, which is the ruling body of IE's and some
token representatives of the other meta-races) ... and most of the other
remaining governing body also makes their home also ...

> Also, what is the Ghosts, Paladins etc.?

The Paladins are the Tirs version of Special Forces people, just like the
Ghosts and Wildcats for some of the NAN countries ...

There is one difference though, there are two levels to this actually ... the
first is the general specification for the special forces people ... the
second level is for those who are sponsored by patrons to become basically the
Paladins of Elven Society (basically they are another method to direct
power/will of the patron) ...

Hope this was enough ...

Mike
Message no. 6
From: Benjamin Eriksen <benjamin.eriksen@******.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:10:10 +0100
At 11:41 09.03.98 PST, you wrote:

>>> Disclaimer: I know we're not going to post sourcebooks here. I'd like
>a few
>>> pointers, not the whole story. Only enough to add a little more color
>without
>>> going against things that could crop up later. Ok?
>
> Why? So things can go easy for you? Sorry, chummer, you mess with
>the Tir, and you messed wit' for life.
> If you are some Ghost that went AWOL, it would make an intresting
>game inteed if you are caught up with some Ghosts or other Shadowrunners
>hired by the Tir.
> I'm sorry if we can't trim the proverbial fat off your character's
>background.
Erm, actually; I believe the character he's referring to is mine, and yes,
he's AWOL. He's already trimmed off a bit of fat, but you know how it is
with those pesky subdermals... Open for comments, but personally I feel
that he's well off.
B.
Message no. 7
From: Panther <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:39:30 -0800
Benjamin Eriksen wrote:
>
> At 11:41 09.03.98 PST, you wrote:
>
> >>> Disclaimer: I know we're not going to post sourcebooks here. I'd like
> >a few
> >>> pointers, not the whole story. Only enough to add a little more color
> >without
> >>> going against things that could crop up later. Ok?
> >
> > Why? So things can go easy for you? Sorry, chummer, you mess with
> >the Tir, and you messed wit' for life.
> > If you are some Ghost that went AWOL, it would make an intresting
> >game inteed if you are caught up with some Ghosts or other Shadowrunners
> >hired by the Tir.
> > I'm sorry if we can't trim the proverbial fat off your character's
> >background.
> Erm, actually; I believe the character he's referring to is mine, and yes,
> he's AWOL. He's already trimmed off a bit of fat, but you know how it is
> with those pesky subdermals... Open for comments, but personally I feel
> that he's well off.
> B.

A Ghost that went AWOL? He's going to be hunted. And they aren't
likely to give up, especially considering they put a lot of good money
into him (ie, training, cyber/bio, etc). They're going to want the
returns from their investment. Nobody, especially governments, likes to
let their money go down the drain.

Panther
Message no. 8
From: MgkellyMJ7 <MgkellyMJ7@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:06:34 EST
In a message dated 98-03-10 08:33:08 EST, you write:

<< Nobody, especially governments, likes to
let their money go down the drain. >>


unless they're the ones pouring it down the drain ;]

Mgkelly
Message no. 9
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:51:05 GMT
><< Nobody, especially governments, likes to
> let their money go down the drain. >>
>
>
>unless they're the ones pouring it down the drain ;]

I like to think that capitalism works, also in 2060. So when the governments
suddenly have competition (corporations) ... they are a lot less likely
to pour cash down the drain. For better and worse...
(Some of these 'drains' are health reforms, social security, etcetera... not
just AWOL soldiers.).

Am I the only one thinking special forces isn't necessarily that tough?
According to Jack Ryan's book (Or a name similar to that) joining the SAS is a
six-week course. (Of course, you have to be fairly good to get into it, let
alone pass.. but still.). Ok, if you have veteran SAS guys, they've
been in four or more wars, and all the time in between, or most of it, is
spent in training... they're hard as nails and not something you want to mess
with. They could probably handle a runner team one arm behind the back...
But that rookie just off the six-week course... no. I don't think so. He'll be
motivated, well trained, but not a supersoldier. Even more so countries with
many, large special forces units, because they are a lot less likely to go into
real combat and get 'real experience'. In the same way, the Legion'd Estrange,
which sees combat *real* often, isn't really 'special forces'... but is, AFAIK,
considered to be some of the hardest guys around.

Or isn't experience that important? Anyone care to speculate on the importance
of live experience compared to training, and skill compared to equipemnt? A
few campaigns that should be of interest: Desert Strike, Finnish winter
war(WWII), Luftwaffe, Africa Corps(WWII), Israel-Egypt/Syria(72?), Falklands.
Probably a lot of others. Desert Strike is an example of a force with little
'live' experience but well trained, motivated, and with a vast equipment
advantage against a force with substantial live experience, but little
training and outdated equipment. I won't draw any conclusions just yet,
and await input..
Message no. 10
From: AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:09:13 EST
In a message dated 98-03-10 08:33:17 EST, you write:

> A Ghost that went AWOL? He's going to be hunted. And they aren't
> likely to give up, especially considering they put a lot of good money
> into him (ie, training, cyber/bio, etc). They're going to want the
> returns from their investment. Nobody, especially governments, likes to
> let their money go down the drain.

Lets be somewhat realistic about this ... this is one of the Tirs ... they
would use ritual magic to roast the frag out of him ... or be even crueler
than that ... use a ritual Control Actions with plenty of masking behind it to
perform some form of crime and get thrown into a prison for life ... and then
make their life a fraggin hell within the prison ...

Mike
Message no. 11
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:21:40 +0100
>
> [skip text about experience is more important than training]

I totally agree with you. Many well trained soldiers lose many of their
capabilities when they're under fire...
Oh, this is Legion Etrangere and is usually considered the best military corp.
An other well known frensh military corp is the GIGN which is specialised
in counter-terrorism, kidnapping and the like. They only loosed one of
their men in the past 50 years and it's quite usual that no ennemy survives
their attack (I think they don't think twice about killing them).

>Or isn't experience that important? Anyone care to speculate on the
importance
>of live experience compared to training, and skill compared to equipemnt? A
>few campaigns that should be of interest: Desert Strike, Finnish winter
>war(WWII), Luftwaffe, Africa Corps(WWII), Israel-Egypt/Syria(72?), Falklands.
>Probably a lot of others. Desert Strike is an example of a force with little
>'live' experience but well trained, motivated, and with a vast equipment
>advantage against a force with substantial live experience, but little
>training and outdated equipment. I won't draw any conclusions just yet,
>and await input..

It's not that simple IMO. Desert strike was settled in a very advantageous
environnment. If you compare with east europe (in Yougoslavia for exemple),
you can see much more difficult attacks. The reason doesn't only come from
the level of equipment and training but also (and I would say in a large
part) the environment. Mountains tend to reduce advantages from technology.


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
Message no. 12
From: Benjamin Eriksen <benjamin.eriksen@******.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:15:43 +0100
At 14:39 07.03.98 -0800, you wrote:

>A Ghost that went AWOL? He's going to be hunted. And they aren't
>likely to give up, especially considering they put a lot of good money
>into him (ie, training, cyber/bio, etc). They're going to want the
>returns from their investment. Nobody, especially governments, likes to
>let their money go down the drain.
>
>Panther
>
>
Well, as a matter of fact, he had only just finished basic training and
hadn't actually been assigned to a unit. Besides, everybody thinks he died
in a car accident. (Not unlikely, the way he drives...)
B.
Message no. 13
From: Benjamin Eriksen <benjamin.eriksen@******.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:21:00 +0100
At 10:09 10.03.98 EST, you wrote:
>
>> A Ghost that went AWOL? He's going to be hunted. And they aren't
>> likely to give up, especially considering they put a lot of good money
>> into him (ie, training, cyber/bio, etc). They're going to want the
>> returns from their investment. Nobody, especially governments, likes to
>> let their money go down the drain.
>
>Lets be somewhat realistic about this ... this is one of the Tirs ... they
>would use ritual magic to roast the frag out of him ... or be even crueler
>than that ... use a ritual Control Actions with plenty of masking behind
it to
>perform some form of crime and get thrown into a prison for life ... and then
>make their life a fraggin hell within the prison ...
>
>Mike
>
>

Hey, he's been real careful covering his tracks, all right? Sheesh, I
just wanted to play en ex-Ghost, not start a shouting contest. Besides, if
they catch him, they'll make him serve his term and put him through an
arranged marriage. Is that OK? Not harsh enough? Oh, OK, have them find
him and roast him on a slow fire then - I'm not planning on being caught.
B.
Message no. 14
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:45:17 GMT
>>perform some form of crime and get thrown into a prison for life ... and then
>>make their life a fraggin hell within the prison ...
>
>
> Hey, he's been real careful covering his tracks, all right? Sheesh, I
>just wanted to play en ex-Ghost, not start a shouting contest. Besides, if
>they catch him, they'll make him serve his term and put him through an
>arranged marriage. Is that OK? Not harsh enough? Oh, OK, have them find
>him and roast him on a slow fire then - I'm not planning on being caught.

Okay. This thread dies now. If anyone want to give suggestions, I'd appreciate
it if they were sent to me on private e-mail.

A few details:
The Ghosts has blood samples, if for nothing else to be able to give better
medical coverage. He has contacts which might have 'invalidated' the sample(s),
then again they might not. So if they are not convinced he's dead, or tracks
of him crop up, or someone recognizes his unit tattoo, he's potentially, but
not certainly, in big trouble. He has to be careful. No more, no less.

I have no plan whatsoever of making that part of his background an important
part of the campaign, as it is not particularily interesting to me. Thus it is
not likely for Ghost disciplinary units to come knocking unless he does
something which basically asks for it.

Thank you for your attention.

(And yes, I know the futility of declaring a thread dead.).
Message no. 15
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:40:43 EST
In a message dated 98-03-10 11:21:21 EST, benjamin.eriksen@******.UIO.NO
writes:

> Hey, he's been real careful covering his tracks, all right? Sheesh,
I
> just wanted to play en ex-Ghost, not start a shouting contest. Besides, if
> they catch him, they'll make him serve his term and put him through an
> arranged marriage. Is that OK? Not harsh enough? Oh, OK, have them find
> him and roast him on a slow fire then - I'm not planning on being caught.
>
Hey guys, Benjamin is right...

The *background* of the game is what it is, the *BACKGROUND*. IN truth, any
"former organization person" (to be Politically Corrrect here) is going to
have problems such as being mentioned.

Benjamin's character is not fundamentally different in that respect than
anyone else's FOP characters have to be on their toes for this/these
reason(s).

What is happening is everyone is reacting/responding from the "GM" POV. Gosh
folks, isn't their a story about "too many chiefs, not enough indians"...yep,
I can see this happening...

Damn, I am glad I quit GMing...

-K
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:07:23 +0100
William Gallas said on 16:21/10 Mar 98...

> Oh, this is Legion Etrangere and is usually considered the best military corp.
> An other well known frensh military corp is the GIGN

I believe GIGN is part of the French police, not the army. IIRC it stands
for Groupement [something] Gendarmerie National (please forgive any
spelling mistakes, I don't have much everyday use for French :)

> which is specialised in counter-terrorism, kidnapping and the like. They
> only loosed one of their men in the past 50 years and it's quite usual
> that no ennemy survives their attack (I think they don't think twice
> about killing them).

That's because they're a counter-terrorism unit, not a military unit
fighting major wars.

> It's not that simple IMO. Desert strike was settled in a very advantageous
> environnment. If you compare with east europe (in Yougoslavia for exemple),
> you can see much more difficult attacks. The reason doesn't only come from
> the level of equipment and training but also (and I would say in a large
> part) the environment. Mountains tend to reduce advantages from technology.

It also helps if the enemy believes your equipment is superior. In Bosnia,
for example, British Army Challenger 1 MBTs are well-respected by the
various parties because they believe that nothing they have will destroy
one. This may have something to do with them being a lot bigger than any
Yugoslavian tank, too.

This is something that can work to special forces' advantage too -- if you
can hit someone/-place and be gone before they can catch you ("melting
into the jungle" kinda stuff) they get afraid of you, and they're at a
disadvantage.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Why live in the world when you can live in your head?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 17
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:40:50 +0000
In article <199803101451.20123.mjodvitnir@***.uio.no>, Rune Fostervoll
<runefo@***.UIO.NO> writes
>Am I the only one thinking special forces isn't necessarily that tough?

Depends what you mean...

>According to Jack Ryan's book (Or a name similar to that) joining the SAS is a
>six-week course. (Of course, you have to be fairly good to get into it, let
>alone pass.. but still.).

That's if you're coming in from - for instance - the Parachute Regiment,
who are of themselves extremely capable individuals.

Unlike the US, you don't join the British special units SAS, SBS, 14 Int
Co et al) direct; you are recommended for them after demonstrating
considerable skill in your "home" unit. You'd typically join the Army or
Marines, pass their selection course, and serve several years, _then_ -
if you distinguished yourself and seemed appropriate - be recommended as
a candidate for SAS selection.

>But that rookie just off the six-week course... no. I don't think so. He'll be
>motivated, well trained, but not a supersoldier.

That's right. He's "merely" a veteran of four or five years service, who
passed P Company or Lympstone or has shown similar aptitude, then has
shown himself to be better fitted to the SAS or SBS than his peers over
several years, and finally passed their selection course.

If there are better soldiers around, I'd like to know where.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 18
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 03:59:09 +0000
Paul wrote:
> >Am I the only one thinking special forces isn't necessarily that tough?
>
> Depends what you mean...

Fair enough. Okay. I mean that 'special forces' doesn't *necessarily*
mean 'the best in the world asskickers'. I also mean that within any
one special forces you have relative rookies, and veterans. I'd
assume that a rookie of a special forces unit would be on par
with a competent street sam. That is tough, but not that tough.
A veteran of a very good army unit would also be on par with a street
sam. A veteran of a special forces unit would be far more competent
than a street sam. That's what I mean. That skill within a special
forces unit is variable, and between special forces units.

The SAS, which I consider the world's best SF unit, was a poor
example, but I have not read any books by ex-Rangers or whatever,
only by a SAS guy. And the impression I got was that the background
of those that joined SAS training was highly variable. Everyone had
passed training for another, highly regarded unit first, as you
mention, but not necessarily a long time ago, though.

> >According to Jack Ryan's book (Or a name similar to that) joining the SAS is a
> >six-week course. (Of course, you have to be fairly good to get into it, let
> >alone pass.. but still.).
(The name was Chris Ryan.).

> >But that rookie just off the six-week course... no. I don't think so. He'll be
> >motivated, well trained, but not a supersoldier.
>
> That's right. He's "merely" a veteran of four or five years service, who
> passed P Company or Lympstone or has shown similar aptitude, then has
> shown himself to be better fitted to the SAS or SBS than his peers over
> several years, and finally passed their selection course.
>
> If there are better soldiers around, I'd like to know where.
Those that has been in that unit for longer.
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 19
From: "Simon.M" <Simon.M@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:24:20 -0000
<SNIP LOTS OF SAS STUFF>

Well, just go to the archive and take a look at my version of a 2050's SAS
member. I think it's a good representation.
Message no. 20
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:41:10 -0500
I'm a couple days behind in my list mail, because of a vacation, but I just
thought I'd add the following comments about the political situation in the
Tir.

While interpretations vary, I suggest using a model of mid 1930s
Germany for the Tir, perhaps with a bit of 1980s East Germany thrown
in (for Portland and border paranoia). Publicly, the Tir is a model for the
world, a model nation, a bunch of oppressed metahumans trying hard to
build a utopian society. Look a little deeper and you find that most of
what you hear can be traced back to the (very sophisticated) Tir
propaganda machine, and verifiable facts are almost impossible to
collect. Most Tir citizens will have the opinion that all state actions are
completely justifiable given the difficult situation the Tir is in (surrounded
by enemies). The fact that they were allies until the Tir tried to invade
them or topple their goverments or wiretapped their phone system etc.
is ignored.

There are other current governments that have the same opinions today
that you can use as models, but I don't think I'll name them for fear of
starting a flame war that I don't feel like fighting. Lets just leave it as
1930s Germany, anyone offended by THAT comparison I don't mind
offending.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 21
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 18:13:44 +0100
Mike Elkins wrote:
>While interpretations vary, I suggest using a model of mid 1930s
>Germany for the Tir, perhaps with a bit of 1980s East Germany thrown
>in (for Portland and border paranoia).
*snip*

This is a very good image for the mood of the place. I'll use it.

Would probably make the Paladins the political equivalent of the
Gestapo. What that makes the Ghosts I don't know - SchutsStaffel?(sp?).

Once you think about it, the image is scarily accurate. There's the same
fascination with symbolism and rituals as well.

--
Fade
----------------------------------
ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 22
From: Benjamin Eriksen <benjamin.eriksen@******.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Tir Tairngire/Elves
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:50:44 +0100
At 14:40 10.03.98 EST, you wrote:

>Hey guys, Benjamin is right...
>
>The *background* of the game is what it is, the *BACKGROUND*. IN truth, any
>"former organization person" (to be Politically Corrrect here) is going to
>have problems such as being mentioned.
>
>Benjamin's character is not fundamentally different in that respect than
>anyone else's FOP characters have to be on their toes for this/these
>reason(s).
>
>What is happening is everyone is reacting/responding from the "GM" POV.
Gosh
>folks, isn't their a story about "too many chiefs, not enough
indians"...yep,
>I can see this happening...
>
>Damn, I am glad I quit GMing...
>
>-K
>
>
Wow! A positive response! And here I was thinking along the Wayne's
World outline; "Benjamin's nobody's friend - if Benjamin were an icecream,
he'd be pralins and d*ck."
Well, it just goes to show.
B.

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