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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Hahns Shin)
Subject: Titanium Bone Lacing and Combat (was RE: D100 (was Re: Contradictions) )
Date: Wed Dec 5 16:00:01 2001
>Ok just for clarification I do not use the number of successes for anything
>other than whether or not they dodge damage and how observant they are.
>Otherwise if you do it you've done it, if you didn't try to go for flair
>you won't have gone for flair, if you didn't go for amore deadly shot you
>didn't try for it. In my opinion there's no such thing as "you shot him SO
>well that a gun that normally did (L) damage nowis doing (S) or (D) damage.
>That's just plain BS. The only time that it

I am of the opinion that a wound from most weapons, no matter how small, has
the ability to kill in one hit. I've seen a case of a person who died of
puncture wounds by her own car keys (a REALLY weird case). Abraham Lincoln
was assassinated by a lemon squeezer-style derringer (certainly an "L"
damage pistol). This is my opinion though, and not part of the discussion at
hand.

>WOULD work like that is with a mage casting a permanent spell. Damage is
>damage and since I allow the use of an anatomy skill to drop the TN and up
>the damage if they're trying to wound them more effectively then there's no
>point in letting them add more damage for more successes, just as I don't
>agree with combat pool when attacking, there's no such thing as "blind
>luck" when it comes to attacking, unless of course

I think the skill system is designed to abstract the fact that a more
skilled person will hit harder/deadlier and more often than an unskilled
person. Combat pool, being derived from attributes, represents applied
natural talent of the individual. My main beef with DnD (a fine system, in
its own unique way) is that a 1d6 Pitchfork has no possible way to kill,
say, a 10th level Fighter. I think SR's system makes the game both deadly
and more realistic as far as damage, especially if you consider the general
lethality of firearms. I also think that the SR system assumes that you are
going for the deadliest shot/attack within your ability, considering that
you have to actually declare that you are pulling your punches in melee
combat (though there are no rules for "incapacitating" shots for sniping...
I'm sure someone on the list will make it up). Also, you have to take into
account that the target gets to roll to resist the damage as well.
Basically, you have to think of the combat system as an abstraction rather
than a direct translation of role-playing actions. That being said, I do
modify combat in my games according to what my players state as their course
of action.

Anatomy would not give much of a bonus for killing people, other than "shoot
for the head". This is coming from a medical student... my detailed
knowledge of anatomy only lets me use it as a complementary skill for Latin.
:-) It would be of most use to a torturer or sniper, and even then, only in
a limited way. It's most valuable use is for medical professions (obviously)
and biology.

we're
>talking about spray and pray (aka. blind suppressive fire). I agree with it
>when it's for dodging but then again we're also going into ways to make the
>characters more detailed and a little more realistic (such as the cost of
>Titanium Bone Lacing which is 2.25 when an entire cyberlimb is only a
>1....the bones are laced with it not replaced with it so why should it cost
>you MORE humanity than having an entire limb replaced?)
>

I posted an article on why this makes sense from a medical standpoint about
a year ago on the list. I can repost it, if you'd like, for a more basic
medical background on implantation and essence loss. Basically, it boils
down to your immune system responses, the amazing amount of blood flow and
innervation that your bones receive (specifically for the case of bone
lacing), and the systemic effects of putting large amounts of metal into
your body. The thing that DOESN'T make sense to me is the essence cost of a
cyberradio. I don't buy the "shielding" argument either.

Hahns Shin, MS II
Budding cybersurgeon

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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Titanium Bone Lacing and Combat (was RE: D100 (was Re: Contradictions) )
Date: Wed Dec 5 17:35:01 2001
> >Ok just for clarification I do not use the number of successes for
> anything
> >other than whether or not they dodge damage and how observant they
are.
> >Otherwise if you do it you've done it, if you didn't try to go for
flair
> >you won't have gone for flair, if you didn't go for amore deadly shot
you
> >didn't try for it. In my opinion there's no such thing as "you shot
him
> SO
> >well that a gun that normally did (L) damage nowis doing (S) or (D)
> damage.
> >That's just plain BS. The only time that it
>
> I am of the opinion that a wound from most weapons, no matter how
small,
> has
> the ability to kill in one hit. I've seen a case of a person who died
of
> puncture wounds by her own car keys (a REALLY weird case). Abraham
Lincoln
> was assassinated by a lemon squeezer-style derringer (certainly an "L"
> damage pistol). This is my opinion though, and not part of the
discussion
> at
> hand.
>
> >WOULD work like that is with a mage casting a permanent spell. Damage
is
> >damage and since I allow the use of an anatomy skill to drop the TN
and
> up
> >the damage if they're trying to wound them more effectively then
there's
> no
> >point in letting them add more damage for more successes, just as I
don't
> >agree with combat pool when attacking, there's no such thing as
"blind
> >luck" when it comes to attacking, unless of course
>
> I think the skill system is designed to abstract the fact that a more
> skilled person will hit harder/deadlier and more often than an
unskilled
> person. Combat pool, being derived from attributes, represents applied
> natural talent of the individual. My main beef with DnD (a fine
system, in
> its own unique way) is that a 1d6 Pitchfork has no possible way to
kill,
> say, a 10th level Fighter.

Unless your DM had a case of moronic stupidity it could....if you stab
them in the right spot...but there aren't many ways that you can
GUARANTEE someone will die from something short of decapitation or
slitting the jugular

> I think SR's system makes the game both deadly
> and more realistic as far as damage, especially if you consider the
> general
> lethality of firearms. I also think that the SR system assumes that
you
> are
> going for the deadliest shot/attack within your ability, considering
that
> you have to actually declare that you are pulling your punches in
melee
> combat (though there are no rules for "incapacitating" shots for
> sniping...
> I'm sure someone on the list will make it up). Also, you have to take
into
> account that the target gets to roll to resist the damage as well.
> Basically, you have to think of the combat system as an abstraction
rather
> than a direct translation of role-playing actions. That being said, I
do
> modify combat in my games according to what my players state as their
> course
> of action.
>
> Anatomy would not give much of a bonus for killing people, other than
> "shoot
> for the head". This is coming from a medical student... my detailed
> knowledge of anatomy only lets me use it as a complementary skill for
> Latin.
Possibly but as I said I allow it for the purposes of wounding shots as
well as making shots more deadly...a shot that severs the spinal cord
would be more IMMEDIATELY damaging than a shot that hits them in the
gut. A lung shot will incapacitate them immediately AND kill them as
they drown in their own blood and would also decrease chances of them
yelling for help

> :-) It would be of most use to a torturer or sniper, and even then,
only
> in
> a limited way. It's most valuable use is for medical professions
> (obviously)
> and biology.
>
> we're
> >talking about spray and pray (aka. blind suppressive fire). I agree
with
> it
> >when it's for dodging but then again we're also going into ways to
make
> the
> >characters more detailed and a little more realistic (such as the
cost of
> >Titanium Bone Lacing which is 2.25 when an entire cyberlimb is only a
> >1....the bones are laced with it not replaced with it so why should
it
> cost
> >you MORE humanity than having an entire limb replaced?)
> >
>
> I posted an article on why this makes sense from a medical standpoint
> about
> a year ago on the list. I can repost it, if you'd like, for a more
basic
> medical background on implantation and essence loss. Basically, it
boils
> down to your immune system responses, the amazing amount of blood flow
and
> innervation that your bones receive (specifically for the case of bone
> lacing), and the systemic effects of putting large amounts of metal
into
> your body. The thing that DOESN'T make sense to me is the essence cost
of
> a
> cyberradio. I don't buy the "shielding" argument either.
Ok....I don't see how coating your bones with titanium is going to
require more bloodflow or anything...I can agree with the standpoint of
a lot more intrusive surgery but not the blood thing. You're coating
the bones, the titanium isn't living nor does it need blood to remain
intact, it's just there to strengthen the bones
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Titanium Bone Lacing and Combat (was RE: D100 (was Re: Contradictions) )
Date: Thu Dec 6 06:05:06 2001
Derek Hyde writes:

> > My main beef with DnD (a fine system, in its own unique way) is that a
> > 1d6 Pitchfork has no possible way to kill, say, a 10th level Fighter.
>
> Unless your DM had a case of moronic stupidity it could....if you stab
> them in the right spot...but there aren't many ways that you can
> GUARANTEE someone will die from something short of decapitation or
> slitting the jugular

I think that the point was that the _system_, as written for D&D, did not
allow such a thing to occur. SR, OTOH, does. Similarly, in SR, it is, as you
say, extremely difficult to guarantee someone's immediate death - getting to
Body boxes over a Deadly wound with a single attack is not that easy.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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