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Message no. 1
From: Louis Barrera <lbarrera@****.NASA.GOV>
Subject: To C, or Not to C (Re: Questions)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 13:20:02 -0700
The forest example of casting was bad. Living plant matter blocks astral
perception, as plants have auras. The example in the grimoire was for a
mage using normal vision, ie visible light range photons. The binoculars
would not enhance astral perception, as it doesn't require visible light
photons, which is the operating principle for binoc's. Astral perception is
based on auras, magic flux, whatever, which is why it doesn't have a
day/night cycle. It has an ebb and flow. It also has a background count,
which is why ranged attacks don't work while astrally projecting. An
analogy I use is looking thru atmosphere. The more you look thru, the
hazier things are, regardless of 'pollution' levels. In astral, there are
minutia background levels being generated constantly, with every action
taken on the physical. The buildup of all these minutia means any
perceiving is by necessity relatively short ranged. That's why you need
a 'thread' to follow someone astrally.
Message no. 2
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: To C, or Not to C (Re: Questions)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 02:06:26 +1000
Louis Barrera writes:

> In astral, there are minutia background levels being generated constantly,
> with every action taken on the physical. The buildup of all these minutia
> means any perceiving is by necessity relatively short ranged.

How is it possible to cast spells over a great distance then? If
spellcasting involves a moment of astral perception to sychncronise the
auras of the caster and target, then by your reasoning, one could not cast
spells at any reasonable distance. And by the rules it is possible to cast a
spell to quite a long distance away.

--
Damion Milliken Nominee for the title of _Shadowrun Guru_ adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 3
From: Louis Barrera <lbarrera@****.NASA.GOV>
Subject: Re: To C, or Not to C (Re: Questions) -Reply
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 11:24:55 -0700
I wrote, in response to something::
> In astral, there are minutia background levels being generated
constantly,
> with every action taken on the physical. The buildup of all these
minutia
> means any perceiving is by necessity relatively short ranged.

Damion writes, for some reason:
>How is it possible to cast spells over a great distance then? If
>spellcasting involves a moment of astral perception to sychncronise the
>auras of the caster and target, then by your reasoning, one could not
>cast spells at any reasonable distance. And by the rules it is possible to
>cast a spell to quite a long distance away.

I churlishly respond:
The only way to cast a long ways off is if you are using "normal" vision,
and even then there are TN modifiers for any significant distance. Read
Range Modifiers, Grimoire, pg. 111. The syncronization is an overlay, as
any "real" shifting of perception takes a simple action. Read Spells and
Astral Space, SRII, pg.149. The reference to "opening a gate" is an
analogy, and it is to allow a channel to direct energies to two polarized
points, not the mage's sight/vision/perception. If the spell is a
manipulation, the opening and closing of the spell occurs at the casting
point, and any physical thing will interrupt the flight of the spell. The
manipulation spell has a dual nature, and can still be "intercepted" in the
astral, as stated in the rules.

I would still be tempted to add a modifier for casting thru binoc's, as they
are processed. But in reality, it rarely comes up in a game. Anyone that
waits on rooftops, doesn't need binoc's. There is no range mod for
spells. My PC's don't like leaving the sprawls. The wilderness is too
dangerous. Besides, they have trouble sneeking their assault cannons
past the border guards.

Thanks for atleast getting the name right.

Lou - Attack, Adapt, Migrate, or Perish
Message no. 4
From: Vincent Pellerin <Vincent.Pellerin@***.GMC.ULAVAL.CA>
Subject: Re: To C, or Not to C (Re: Questions)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 20:42:41 -0500
Louis Barrera wrote..

>> In astral, there are minutia background levels being generated
>constantly,
>> with every action taken on the physical. The buildup of all these
>minutia
>> means any perceiving is by necessity relatively short ranged.
>

Sorry, it seems in the grymthing (as everybody seems to call it) that the
only limited perception limited by range is under water. I have never read
anywhere that the astral perception is "by necessity relatively short
ranged".***

>Damion writes, for some reason:

a good one i believe ***

>>How is it possible to cast spells over a great distance then? If
>>spellcasting involves a moment of astral perception to sychncronise the
>>auras of the caster and target, then by your reasoning, one could not
>>cast spells at any reasonable distance. And by the rules it is possible to
>>cast a spell to quite a long distance away.
>
>I churlishly respond:
>The only way to cast a long ways off is if you are using "normal" vision,
>and even then there are TN modifiers for any significant distance.

These modifier look to me only logical, even in astral space, considering
the size of the target.

>Read
>Range Modifiers, Grimoire, pg. 111. The syncronization is an overlay, as
>any "real" shifting of perception takes a simple action. Read Spells and
>Astral Space, SRII, pg.149. The reference to "opening a gate" is an
>analogy, and it is to allow a channel to direct energies to two polarized
>points, not the mage's sight/vision/perception. If the spell is a
>manipulation, the opening and closing of the spell occurs at the casting
>point, and any physical thing will interrupt the flight of the spell. The
>manipulation spell has a dual nature, and can still be "intercepted" in the
>astral, as stated in the rules.
>
>( the rest is snipped)

Sorry Louis i got to go with damion on this one, in the SR2 rule book the
description say something in the lines of (sorry i dont have the book with
me so i go on with memory): the spells are cast by opening partially to the
astral plane. It does not state that you see with the full astral
perception. I could use your own argument in saying : what about mage in
astral perception, they dont need to go back to the regular perception to
cast a spell (that would use a simple action i believe?). This process would
be like sampling a part of the target's aura, a process that is certainly a
possibility (defaulting to an official source of the spellcasting process)
and dont necessary need full astral perception.***

***: then again this is the part i like about the fuzziness of the Shadowrun
magic system, it leaves a lot of place for interpretations. Two group might
not play with the same idea of magic !!! This certainly is close to wath
they said, two mages dont use magic the same way and their perception of it
differ from one to another.

I dont know if continuing on this argument is going to go somwhere
since our basic idea of the spellcasting process differ so greatly, but i'm
certainly enjoying it. :-)

_________________________________________________________________________
| _______ "You are yong only once....... |
| \ \ / ......... but you can be immature all yourlife !"|
| \ ___/ / -heard somewhere, i don'tremember |
| \ / |
| \_/ Vincent.Pellerin@***.gmc.ulaval.ca |
|________________________________________________________________________|
Message no. 5
From: Louis Barrera <lbarrera@****.NASA.GOV>
Subject: Re: To C, or Not to C (Re: Questions) -Reply
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 19:09:52 -0700
Vincent writes:

Sorry, it seems in the grymthing (as everybody seems to call it) that the
only limited perception limited by range is under water. I have never read
anywhere that the astral perception is "by necessity relatively short
ranged".***

>>I (me) churlishly respond:
>>The only way to cast a long ways off is if you are using "normal"
>>vision,
>>and even then there are TN modifiers for any significant distance.

Vincent writes:
These modifier look to me only logical, even in astral space, considering
the size of the target.

Sorry Louis i got to go with damion on this one, in the SR2 rule book the
description say something in the lines of (sorry i dont have the book with
me so i go on with memory): the spells are cast by opening partially to
the astral plane. It does not state that you see with the full astral
perception. I could use your own argument in saying : what about mage
in astral perception, they dont need to go back to the regular perception
to cast a spell (that would use a simple action i believe?). This process
would be like sampling a part of the target's aura, a process that is
certainly a possibility (defaulting to an official source of the spellcasting
process) and dont necessary need full astral perception.***

I write:
I do have the Grimoire and SR2 with me. I did not say you have to go to
full astral projection. You wouldn't need to go to physical perception
because you already have the targets aura. There is no such thing as a
physical aura, unless you count visual sight, which is not magical in the
least. If you required it, anything that is disguised would mess it up. I
don't think you followed my line. Read what it says before disregarding
my references. Unless you have a photographic memory. They are not
size of target modifiers. Read the section. Frag I can't see normal half
that far, so it assumes you have some type of augmentation. So Ka?

If you don't want to continue the discussion Vincent, don't respond.
Message no. 6
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: To C, or Not to C (Re: Questions) -Reply
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 20:41:16 +1000
Louis Barrera writes:

> I churlishly respond:

Whoops, sorry if you took my post as an attack, it wasn't meant to be. I was
just pointing out what seemed to be an inconsistency.

> The only way to cast a long ways off is if you are using "normal" vision,

What do you define "normal" as? Is it eyes only? Or does it cover things
like optical binooiculars?

> and even then there are TN modifiers for any significant distance. Read
> Range Modifiers, Grimoire, pg. 111.

Yes, I'm aware of the _optional_ range modifier rules in the Grimything.

> The syncronization is an overlay, as any "real" shifting of perception
> takes a simple action. Read Spells and Astral Space, SRII, pg.149.

Yes, I re-read the section, and came up with "As a spell is being cast, the
magician's senses are opened up partially to the astral plane." Seems pretty
well defined from the rules that the act of casting a spell involves an
involuntary shift to astral perception by the caster, which only occurs for
the duration of the casting of the spell.

> I would still be tempted to add a modifier for casting thru binoc's, as they
> are processed.

I'd probably use the rules in the Grimything if anyone was using binoculars
to cast spells at distances the cannot normally see clearly to. But the
point in question was whether you could use binoculars to see to long
distances on the astral, and it would seem to me as though it were possible.

> But in reality, it rarely comes up in a game.

This is true, but as the original question stated, it could well occur.

PS, any idea why I received two copies of the letter? Or did everyone?

--
Damion Milliken Nominee for the title of _Shadowrun Guru_ adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+

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