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Message no. 1
From: TopCat <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 15:16:50 -0500
A lot of complaining goes on here about players being too powerful at the
start. This all gets attributed to Shadowtech and Cybertech (nothing ever
gets said about added spells from Grimoire... hmmm) but the real source of
the problem is the resources portion of chargen. If you limit resources to
max of "B" and allow all rulebooks, you'll notice that there is still a big
dropoff in "power". After all, how many runners with piddly skills and
stats are going to last long enough to acquire a million nuyen worth of
stuff? This also prevents those shamanic adepts from having force 4 power
foci. But that doesn't have anything to do with being powerful, that's just
being magic (wipes of some of the dripping sarcasm).

If I HAD managed to acquire 1 million nuyen worth of stuff... I'd be selling
most of it on black market (can buy PLENTY of contacts with cash left over)
and using my newfound millions to send me to the Caribbean League for some
R&R from all those toughs seconds of work I had to put in to get me where I
am today.

So axe the mil nuyen possibility and watch the results. The players have
access to everything in the world, but can only afford maybe one or two
topnotch toys. Test and enjoy...


-- TopCat
Message no. 2
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 00:05:07 GMT
Bob Ooton (The Last of the Mohicans) writes:
> A lot of complaining goes on here about players being too powerful at the
> start. This all gets attributed to Shadowtech and Cybertech (nothing ever
> gets said about added spells from Grimoire... hmmm) but the real source of
> the problem is the resources portion of chargen. If you limit resources to
> max of "B" and allow all rulebooks, you'll notice that there is still a big
> dropoff in "power".

Actually, any PC who depends entirely on one area tends to have a very low
life-expectancy in our campaign. "A" resources tends to be either magic
(for human mages) or Attributes.

And the usual rule applies. The PC has gadget 'X' and thinks it makes them
invincible? The GM has a golden opportunity to torture the PC / provide the
player with challenging and interesting role-playing opportunities. ;)

We tend to avoid gadgets, though. Out of Cybertechnology, while several
people upgraded to deltaware, the only items from the book used were hand
blades and tool lasers. Oh, and the fingertip lockpicks. The consensus was
that most of it was too unsubtle and compromised your ability to pass for
"normal".

> If I HAD managed to acquire 1 million nuyen worth of stuff... I'd be selling
> most of it on black market (can buy PLENTY of contacts with cash left over)
> and using my newfound millions to send me to the Caribbean League for some
> R&R from all those toughs seconds of work I had to put in to get me where I
> am today.

Depends on your PC... some of mine have tried to retire. It don't work. All
those old enemies won't leave you alone. So with a million, upgrade the chrome
and keep moving! Lynch's last refit cost about eleven million newyen... nothing
too flashy, either: breadth, not overkill (wired-II, rigged-II, and the rest
of the cyberware just meaning "instead of orientation system *or* the second
smartgun link, now you can get both!"

(Okay, not overkill compared to some...)

Interesting, though... if you can "buy anything" at chargen, buy stuff with
seriously high Street Index and sell it first thing. Very, very munchkin.
While I let starting PCs start with *anything*, it needs to be in character.
But then the first thing any starting PC writes with me is the background.

> So axe the mil nuyen possibility and watch the results. The players have
> access to everything in the world, but can only afford maybe one or two
> topnotch toys. Test and enjoy...
> -- TopCat

Not necessary. *Let* them have the toys. Give them the weapon with Availability
24 and Street Index 5. Now let them try to find a new magnetron rectifier for
it to make it work again... Three or four high-risk low-pay runs right there.

This is one reason players in my games concentrate on being *good* with
ordinary weapons, rather than buying exotics. Let's face it... if you can't
get spares for an AK-97, you won't be able to get spares for *anything*!

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 10:55:43 +0100
TopCat said on 30 Sep 95...

> A lot of complaining goes on here about players being too powerful at the
> start. [snip] the real source of
> the problem is the resources portion of chargen. If you limit resources to
> max of "B" and allow all rulebooks, you'll notice that there is still a big
> dropoff in "power".

Why _should_ you limit resources to B? I think that's the same as saying
"You can't have Attributes at A because then you'll just go for high stats
which makes for too high a power level in the game." Yes, I know you can
take shitty Attributes and a million nuyen, and then bring those attributes
up to very high levels, but you _are_ spending lots of money on them,
while you could also have taken money at less and attributes at more and
arrived at more or less the same levels for both stats and equipment...

> After all, how many runners with piddly skills and
> stats are going to last long enough to acquire a million nuyen worth of
> stuff? This also prevents those shamanic adepts from having force 4 power
> foci. But that doesn't have anything to do with being powerful, that's just
> being magic (wipes of some of the dripping sarcasm).

You know, I think this anti-maguc-munchkin campaign you seem to be
starting would work better if applied in proper doses, instead of all at
once... :)

> So axe the mil nuyen possibility and watch the results. The players have
> access to everything in the world, but can only afford maybe one or two
> topnotch toys. Test and enjoy...

If you do this, I think it's better to not forbid a million, but try and
persuade the players not to take it... Spending a million takes _long_
during character generation -- the fastest-made characters are the ones
with the least money, plain and simple (apart from the background, of
course, but I'm talking game stats here), so if your players want to be
able to _play_ the characters the same night as they start creating them,
it might just work to tell them "You took a million? Do you know what time
it'll be before you've spent that? Why not go for a little less?"

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
...in somebody else's sky...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 4
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.EC-LYON.FR>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 14:26:56 MET
Cobra:
There is no really too powerful characters if you respect the rules. A
beginning character can't buy equipment with an availabilty over 6. That's
a good rule to my point of view.
Of course, a mage can get some spells making him a really powerful bastard.
But, just think about it:
First, a magician sustaining a spell has a +2 T.N. modifier, making him a lot
less powerful.
Second, if he uses spell locks to sustain his spells, he must face two
problems:
first, the maximum number of magic items (including spell locks) a magician
can be linked to is his intelligence.
second, a focus (be it a power focus, a spell lock or anything else) is a
bridge between you and those around you and the astral. So, my players rarely
use foci because they scared by magical attacks from the astral.
Just remember it to your players and if they don't really estimate the danger,
show them what can do an acid bomb on a focus during a scenario. NPC are not
always stupid, they will certainly use the opportunity to give a blow to the
players without any risk for their life.
And finally, cyberware and bodytech are not a problem because you pay them
with money and Essence or Body index. In the case of bodytech and alpha, beta
or delta cyberwares, you can have new problems (too high body index and risks
for cyberware not to function).
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 10:25:30 +0100
>[snipped how resources hsouldn't be limited]

It is my personal belief that they shouldn't be. But everyone looks to
sourcebooks as the great evil whereas it truly lies in the spending of the
player and tweaking of the character. :^)

>You know, I think this anti-maguc-munchkin campaign you seem to be
>starting would work better if applied in proper doses, instead of all at
>once... :)

Heheheh... I have much more up my sleeve in case of magic flame (which isn't
real flame, it's just magic *grin*).

>If you do this, I think it's better to not forbid a million, but try and
>persuade the players not to take it... Spending a million takes _long_
>during character generation -- the fastest-made characters are the ones
>with the least money, plain and simple (apart from the background, of
>course, but I'm talking game stats here), so if your players want to be
>able to _play_ the characters the same night as they start creating them,
>it might just work to tell them "You took a million? Do you know what time
>it'll be before you've spent that? Why not go for a little less?"

Time restraints can often keep players from doing this, but I can spend a
million nuyen in under 20 minutes. So that works for some and not others.
What does work well is this: Why do you have 1mil nuyen in resources? That
generally throws a nasty scare into the hearts of A-Resource laden creatures.
One thing that I'm working on is a new campaign at LOW street level --
C-Resource maximum (magicians and adepts may choose to lower the cash
portion one and raise force points one) & 4 availability maximum.
Characters will have to (much like in the cyberpunk literature) rent much of
their equipment and rely more on contacts and roleplaying than cash and
flash. Sure they'll have good stats & good skills, but I believe the trade
will work out very nicely all in all. It'll force/encourage reaction with
the environment rather than allow every runner to be esentially
self-sufficient. What are your thoughts on this?


-- TopCat
Who wonders why your reply got sent to me and not to the list...
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 10:49:45 +0100
TopCat said on 1 Oct 95...

> Time restraints can often keep players from doing this, but I can spend a
> million nuyen in under 20 minutes.

Of course, if you only take expensive stuff (anyone remember the (Too)
Rich Kid posted here a few months back? She had a million and spent 80% of
it on three items: a car, Followers, and a Luxury lifestyle...) but if you
buy little things you are busy for hours thinking of "Well, I've still got
this 135,572 nuyen left. What more can I get for that after I bought all
my essentials?"

> Who wonders why your reply got sent to me and not to the list...

I think it's my mailer that does that -- it looks for addresses in the
message header, and when it finds two (or more) it sends the reply
out to all of them.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Keep on running back into that wall
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 7
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.EC-LYON.FR>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 11:09:02 MET
Hey Gurth, just read SRII rules (in the section of character generation).
-Cobra.
Message no. 8
From: Mike Loseke <mike@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:05:09 -0600
> One thing that I'm working on is a new campaign at LOW street level --
> C-Resource maximum (magicians and adepts may choose to lower the cash
> portion one and raise force points one) & 4 availability maximum.

This is almost exactly what I described we were doing in two different groups.
We can't start with a resources higher than C and availability of 5 or 6
(depending on campaign) for gear, and the stuff that we get _must_ be legal.

We've had some of the funnest runs within these two campaigns because of the
lower tendency to play like we're the X-Men or somebody (infinite bufget and
power).

I encourage anyone interested to try this method. I'd be happy to help out
anyone with specifics.

--
Mike Loseke * Webmaster & |
System Administrator | F u cn rd ths u cnt spl wrth a dm!
mike@***.sc.colostate.edu |
http://www.sc.colostate.edu |
Message no. 9
From: Guy Swartwood <gswartwo@*********.WICHITAKS.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 10:42:00 PDT
>>>limiting resource to C or less<<<<
>This is almost exactly what I described we were doing in two different
groups.
>We can't start with a resources higher than C and availability of 5 or 6
>(depending on campaign) for gear, and the stuff that we get _must_ be
legal.
>
>We've had some of the funnest runs within these two campaigns because of
the
>lower tendency to play like we're the X-Men or somebody (infinite bufget
and
>power).
>
>I encourage anyone interested to try this method. I'd be happy to help out
>anyone with specifics.
>
>--
> Mike Loseke * Webmaster & |

I take it that in your campaign, no one is a decker or a rigger?

The rigger does has to have 1 mill nuyen to be a good rigger, but it helps
so that the rigger can do something.

I also can easlily spend a mil on a decker that ends up not being a very
powerful physical character. I can't imagine creating a decker who can deck
effectively with a deck created by resources less than A priority. Sure,
you can make one, but, his deck won't be very good and if you when build the
deck with 400,000 nuyen or less (that is easy), can you also get programs
and persona chips that are descent (not so easy)?

I think the imposed limit should be put on certain character types, not all
of them.

Guy Swartwood corporate decker by day, shadowrunner at night,
wildman@******.net
gswartwo@*********.wichitaks.attgis.com
cycon@*******.net
Message no. 10
From: Mike Loseke <mike@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 10:04:53 -0600
> >>>limiting resource to C or less<<<<
>
> I take it that in your campaign, no one is a decker or a rigger?

Actually we've had both. Granted, they haven't been missile packing wireheads
with VCR-3s and Fairlights, but they have been some pretty cool characters.
They've also been quite a bit outside the lines of the archtypes of these types.
The decker was also a chemist and druggie, and the rigger was a troll crazy
with alot of contacts and a nicely built-up van.

In the campaign we just recently started, the decker and rigger both were
given special consideration for the obvious spendies. The player wrote down
what they wanted in a deck or vehicle and the GM made them and just gave them
to the character (but he wanted a background first). The player could spend the
full resources of C on whatever they wanted (my rigger was allowed a VCR-1,
even though it exceeded the availability limit). Doing things this way did
not limit, or unbalance, the group as a whole. It actually made it more
balanced, because the rigger wasn't running around in an invisible Ford-Canada
Bison with Dalmations loaded with twin miniguns, and the decker wasn't primed
to the gills on his stuff, but they had what it takes to survive without
struggling.

> The rigger does has to have 1 mill nuyen to be a good rigger, but it helps
> so that the rigger can do something.

A little imagination, a few trashcan lids, some C-12 and a demolitions skill...
Or even a 6 elec/elec(B/R), some recovered gridlink hardware, a good decker
friend... MacGyver (even though I hated the show's green/PC slant) was the
perfect shadowrunner.

> I think the imposed limit should be put on certain character types, not all
> of them.

This was solved (to our liking) by what the GM did above. He made allowances
and supplied these extremely tech-dependant characters with what they needed.
But the GM has the hardest job. He has to make all of the Contacts live and
breathe! And we get alot!

> Guy Swartwood corporate decker by day, shadowrunner at night,

Hoo-rah!

--
Mike Loseke * Webmaster & | Cor, that woman's about as subtle as a
System Administrator | rhinoceros horn up the backside.
mike@***.sc.colostate.edu |
http://www.sc.colostate.edu | -- Black Adder
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:17:13 +0100
Gallas William said on 2 Oct 95...

> Hey Gurth, just read SRII rules (in the section of character generation).

This was on the fact that you said that starting chars are not allowed
equipment with an Availability of 6 or more, right? I think you are
referring to the sentence on page 46 that says "Remember, however, that
characters cannot start the game with any gear whose rating is higher than
6." (lines 23 and 24) Might I point you to a few lines earlier, where it
says "During character generation, ignore Availability..."
I think I can legally start the game with heavy military armor,
thankyouverymuch.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Keep on running back into that wall
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 12
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 13:31:02 +0100
TopCat wrote:
> A lot of complaining goes on here about players being too powerful at the
> start. This all gets attributed to Shadowtech and Cybertech (nothing ever
> gets said about added spells from Grimoire... hmmm)

C'm on Bob spare us the "mages are baaad" sermon. If you had the slightest
clue about the magic system you would know that all the spells in the world
make no difference. The real power-spells are in SRII and they are very few.
Sleep, Manabal and Firebomb are enough to ruin anyone's day under any
circumstances.

> but the real source of
> the problem is the resources portion of chargen. If you limit resources to
> max of "B" and allow all rulebooks, you'll notice that there is still a big
> dropoff in "power". After all, how many runners with piddly skills and
> stats are going to last long enough to acquire a million nuyen worth of
> stuff?

WOA we agree :) What I did was tell my players that they should get skills
as their first available priority. I think that this makes for much more
rounded out characters.

> This also prevents those shamanic adepts from having force 4 power
> foci. But that doesn't have anything to do with being powerful, that's just
> being magic (wipes of some of the dripping sarcasm).

Thats just being DED. A force 4 focus means a TN of 4 for the astral attacker
and 4 dice to resist - Enter Fireball -

> If I HAD managed to acquire 1 million nuyen worth of stuff... I'd be selling
> most of it on black market (can buy PLENTY of contacts with cash left over)
> and using my newfound millions to send me to the Caribbean League for some
> R&R from all those toughs seconds of work I had to put in to get me where I
> am today.
>
> So axe the mil nuyen possibility and watch the results. The players have
> access to everything in the world, but can only afford maybe one or two
> topnotch toys. Test and enjoy...

This works, but watch out for the sammies, their gona tear your heart out.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 13
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 15:09:15 +0100
Guy Swartwood wrote:
>
> I take it that in your campaign, no one is a decker or a rigger?
>
> The rigger does has to have 1 mill nuyen to be a good rigger, but it helps
> so that the rigger can do something.
>
> I also can easlily spend a mil on a decker that ends up not being a very
> powerful physical character. I can't imagine creating a decker who can deck
> effectively with a deck created by resources less than A priority. Sure,
> you can make one, but, his deck won't be very good and if you when build the
> deck with 400,000 nuyen or less (that is easy), can you also get programs
> and persona chips that are descent (not so easy)?
>
> I think the imposed limit should be put on certain character types, not all
> of them.

Yes, that dends to be a problem. Anyway a decker could circumvebt that
problem by building the deck himself. OTOH this sort of thing really sux.
What we did in this case was to allow the use of the SRI alternative
chargen system (the one with the 10 points) for the rigger and the decker.
They got an A in skills and resources.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 14
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 15:23:08 +0100
Gurth wrote:
>
> Gallas William said on 2 Oct 95...
>
> > Hey Gurth, just read SRII rules (in the section of character generation).
>
> This was on the fact that you said that starting chars are not allowed
> equipment with an Availability of 6 or more, right? I think you are
> referring to the sentence on page 46 that says "Remember, however, that
> characters cannot start the game with any gear whose rating is higher than
> 6." (lines 23 and 24) Might I point you to a few lines earlier, where it
> says "During character generation, ignore Availability..."

I'll have to check that out. Anyway what they probably meant was that
you dont have to wait the noted time to get that piece of equipment.
Or mabe its one of FASA's not so rare gaph's and they actually meant
street index.
Anyway I really dont think that its prudent to let someone let
his character have an Ares Firelance or a suit of military armor.
Few players would know how to handle such an item, hell I am not
even sure whether I would be able to control myself and use the item to
role-play instead of muchking it out.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 15
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.EC-LYON.FR>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 15:30:56 MET
Ok Gurth, I'm beatten!
Cobra.
Message no. 16
From: U-Gene <R3STG@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 10:26:57 EDT
I thought that they didn't want you to get anything higher than rating 6,
not availibility 6. That way you don't have characters running around
with Weapon focus 10, laser microphone 15, ect.

err... I thought. I have been wrong before.

U-Gene << Ready to be proven wrong. Again. >>
Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 11:34:17 +0100
U-Gene said on 3 Oct 95...

> I thought that they didn't want you to get anything higher than rating 6,
> not availibility 6. That way you don't have characters running around
> with Weapon focus 10, laser microphone 15, ect.
>
> err... I thought. I have been wrong before.

This is the way that rule is commonly interpreted, I think. If it has
ratins up to 100, and Availability of (rating x 90), you can get it at
rating 6 maximum, no matter what the Availability, during character
generation.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Keep on running back into that wall
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 18
From: Stephanos Piperoglou <steve@*******.HOL.GR>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 17:42:41 +0200
On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, Guy Swartwood wrote:

> The rigger does has to have 1 mill nuyen to be a good rigger, but it helps
> so that the rigger can do something.

That's downright wrong. A rigger with a mil to spend ends up driving what
amounts to a tank, with two or three drones armed to the teeth. Usually
that's overpowered. A playable rigger does *NOT* have a Rotary Autocannon
popping out of his vehicle.

> I also can easlily spend a mil on a decker that ends up not being a very
> powerful physical character. I can't imagine creating a decker who can deck
> effectively with a deck created by resources less than A priority. Sure,
> you can make one, but, his deck won't be very good and if you when build the
> deck with 400,000 nuyen or less (that is easy), can you also get programs
> and persona chips that are descent (not so easy)?

Matrix combat depends entirely on the GM. He can make systems as difficult or
as easy as he wants. If he knows his decker doesn't have a Fairlight
Excalibur, he should adjust IC levels accordingly.

--
Stephanos Piperoglou -- steve@****.hol.gr
"Beside the everlasting `Why?' there is a `Yes', and a `Yes', and a `Yes'!"
- E. M. Forster, "A Room with a View"
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DI+ D+ G++ e->++++* h! r y?
Message no. 19
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 15:45:04 +0100
Stephanos Piperoglou wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, Guy Swartwood wrote:
> > The rigger does has to have 1 mill nuyen to be a good rigger, but it helps
> > so that the rigger can do something.
>
> That's downright wrong. A rigger with a mil to spend ends up driving what
> amounts to a tank, with two or three drones armed to the teeth. Usually
> that's overpowered. A playable rigger does *NOT* have a Rotary Autocannon
> popping out of his vehicle.

Well it depends a great deal on the rigger and his philosophy. Believe
me one million is not barely enough for some things, and I am not talking
munchkin here. And besides are you sure that you (the GM) are charging
the right prices for everything ? Does the rigger have the nececary
facilities to do the custom work he wants ? Did you know that a vehicle
facility alone costs 200K ?

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
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"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 20
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 17:11:56 GMT
Jani writes:
> Anyway I really dont think that its prudent to let someone let
> his character have an Ares Firelance or a suit of military armor.
> Few players would know how to handle such an item, hell I am not
> even sure whether I would be able to control myself and use the item to
> role-play instead of muchking it out.

Nope: let tham have it. Make them sweat to get the item, make them struggle
to get the tech manual (did they take it when they stole the Fireblade? No?
Oops...) Now they have to find a set of test equipment. And four 54-kilowatt
kludgestrons and a left-handed Bingley rectifier have to be replaced after
every 100 hours of activation or "explosion and damage may result". They
can only be found in corporate or military stores. You could get someone
to design an alternative (less efficient) method. They might not even collect
the reward that would be on offer.

Meanwhile, there is one shadowrunner on the loose. It is known that he stole
a Fireblade laser. Nine people have been murdered by an unmarked helicopter
carrying a Fireblade. The runner protests and says "That wasn't me!" But
prove it :) The corps can have a brief bout of assassination and destruction
and make you the fall-guy with no problems at all.

Still want that laser? Go on...

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:14:06 +0100
Jani Fikouras said on 5 Oct 95...

> Does the rigger have the nececary
> facilities to do the custom work he wants ? Did you know that a vehicle
> facility alone costs 200K ?

Not to mention the warehouse you need to set up the facility... that could
also cause some trouble for the PC :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here we go again...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 22
From: TopCat <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem...
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 17:23:58 -0500
One of the things that has been brought up in my argument against high
starting resources (err... A starting resources) is that it cripples riggers
and deckers.

Ok, here's how ya deal with that...

Much like real life, people borrow cash. You may even do runs in exchange
of cash payment on the loan. You can also rent items, a personal favorite
of mine. You need an electronics shop for working on your deck? Well, go
to your contact and see if he can hook you up with someone who does have the
stuff. MUCH cheaper than owning it yourself, and it's not connected to you
in any way. You might be able to play off your deck as not being yours
should the need arise, but if they hit your place and find an electronics
workshop, it gets a little more difficult.

Other thing is the fact that often other team members will have cash they'd
be willing to spot you for a while. Contacts can hook you up for loans (but
I'd be careful about hooking up with Mafia, Yakuza, or Tong loansharks).
Buddies may even be able to float you a few thousand in time of need. As
these things go, it's near impossible ot be 100% self-sufficient in a game
without "A" resources. But it is much more realistic and requires some
thought about how to do things as opposed to just pointing at gadget X on
the character sheet.


-- TopCat
Message no. 23
From: Rajan Hollmann <rajan.hollmann@*******.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem...
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 12:17:43 +0100
> Ok, here's how ya deal with that...
[stuff deleted]
> Other thing is the fact that often other team members will have cash they'd
> be willing to spot you for a while. Contacts can hook you up for loans (but
> I'd be careful about hooking up with Mafia, Yakuza, or Tong loansharks).
> Buddies may even be able to float you a few thousand in time of need. As
> these things go, it's near impossible ot be 100% self-sufficient in a game
> without "A" resources. But it is much more realistic and requires some
> thought about how to do things as opposed to just pointing at gadget X on
> the character sheet.

Exactly! I am playing an Elf physical adept and as I had to wast A
and B for race and magic. As you can imagine, I have only a few
skills (can't even shoot straight) and I started the game with 500
nuyen. Tell me about getting some money! I even had problems
purchasing my first weapon :-)
I think this makes for a lot more rrealism. Our rigger started with A
and he has a heli, drones and tons of other stuff. No fun if you ask
me. Where is the thrill when you hold a HK227 for the first time
after just risking your life for it ;-)
But another problem. Would it be too unbalancing to allow metahumans
with race on E? I mean, after all you runner group doesn't consist of
the average citizens. Oh well, just that I wish I could put skills on
C :-)

Ciao,

Rajan

>
> -- TopCat
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------
Rajan Hollmann; Quickborn, Germany
rajan.hollmann@*******.netsurf.de
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Message no. 24
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem...
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 12:06:24 -0500
> Exactly! I am playing an Elf physical adept and as I had to wast A
> and B for race and magic. As you can imagine, I have only a few
> skills (can't even shoot straight) and I started the game with 500
> nuyen. Tell me about getting some money! I even had problems
> purchasing my first weapon :-)
> But another problem. Would it be too unbalancing to allow metahumans
> with race on E? I mean, after all you runner group doesn't consist of
> the average citizens. Oh well, just that I wish I could put skills on
> C :-)

Well, the optional "meta C" and allergy rules actually end up letting most
metas have MORE skills and higher attributes. Mages and adepts still get the
short stick, but nowhere as bad as with "meta A" and no allergies. Also, we
frequently allow "priority shifting" for such caracters- move one priority
down a notch, another up a notch, so you have like 2 B's, a c and 2 D's. This
is similar to the SR1 point system, I think. There are some other caracter
creation systems around that allow greater flexability but still give the same
results if used to create most caracters.
Message no. 25
From: Rajan Hollmann <rajan.hollmann@*******.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem...
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 06:37:06 +0100
Hi Sebastian!

> Well, the optional "meta C" and allergy rules actually end up letting most
> metas have MORE skills and higher attributes. Mages and adepts still get the
> short stick, but nowhere as bad as with "meta A" and no allergies. Also,
we
> frequently allow "priority shifting" for such caracters- move one priority
> down a notch, another up a notch, so you have like 2 B's, a c and 2 D's. This
> is similar to the SR1 point system, I think. There are some other caracter
> creation systems around that allow greater flexability but still give the same
> results if used to create most caracters.

Those are some nice ideas, but how about shifting race to D and
requiering magic as A for adepts. This would be a variant of your
shifting and allow the physical adept better starting conditions
while still holding the balance IMHO, i.e. put attributes on B and
skill on 24, this will allow you some decent and necessary skills and
your attributes can't skyrocket at the beginning.
If I were a GM, I think I would require rescources set to E. After
all, where is the motivation when you can blast the bad guys off the
street in your new combat heli with the latest gadgets.
What do you think?

Ciao,

Rajan

----------------------------------------------------------
Rajan Hollmann; Quickborn, Germany
rajan.hollmann@*******.netsurf.de
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Message no. 26
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem...
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:36:18 +0100
Rajan Hollmann said on 8 Oct 95...

> Exactly! I am playing an Elf physical adept and as I had to wast A
> and B for race and magic. As you can imagine, I have only a few
> skills (can't even shoot straight) and I started the game with 500
> nuyen. Tell me about getting some money! I even had problems
> purchasing my first weapon :-)

My physad is human for exactly that reason -- I wanted a metahuman but I
figured I just had too few skills and attributes that way... In he end I
think I took C attributes and A skills, with D money.

> But another problem. Would it be too unbalancing to allow metahumans
> with race on E? I mean, after all you runner group doesn't consist of
> the average citizens. Oh well, just that I wish I could put skills on
> C :-)

You can put Race on C if you use the More Metahumans optional rule. E
would be overkill, I think.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
History as we like to see it
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 27
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 13:29:15 +0100
Gurth wrote:
> Jani Fikouras said on 6 Oct 95...
>
> > > Not to mention the warehouse you need to set up the facility... that could
> > > also cause some trouble for the PC :)
> >
> > I generally rule that geting such a warehouse means that the level of the
> > lifestyle drops by one level. That means that you pay for a middle lifestyle,
> > but instead of getting the free car and the nice food you get a bigger place
> > to put all your cars and you get to sleep in a small pallet.
>
> Free car? Oooh!!!
>
> I don't give away free cras (I hardly give anything for free :), if the
> player doesn't have the cash to buy a car but does buy a certain
> lifestyle, it's only the house and furniture in my game :)

I dodnt say that he gets to own a free car, nevertheless the lifestyle
description makes it clear that a middle lifestyle includes the use of
a car. I take it that means that the character gets to use a rented of
leased (sp?) car or something. If he trashes it however he's got to pay
for it.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 28
From: TopCat <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem...
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 12:58:25 -0500
I can't believe people actually complain that C priority for race is too
much. +3 to your stats, naturally improved vision, and (in the case of
dwarves and trolls) extra bonus "powers" is only worth maybe D or E? Throw
in allergies and you get another 1-4 points of skills or stats. I think
that C is far too lenient and, thusly, prefer the A priority rules. To me,
a C priority is average. The average person in 205X is not a metahuman. It
is incredibly rare to see metas (all combined) even at 1/3 of human
population in cities.

Oh, and another tidbit. Adept magic status in "real" rules is only a C
priority for metas. They also get an extra die of karma pool at the start.
So they are far from crippled. In fact, they are often more powerful than
their human counterparts. If you really want to munch out, use C metas with
every optional meta-aiding rule and you'll get what you want. If you want
Shadowrun as a challenging and a realistic game, go with the base rules.


-- TopCat
Message no. 29
From: Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem...
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 23:45:43 -0400
Wow...it takes forever to delete headers when only using the backspace button...

Quote from: Rajan Hollmann
>> Ok, here's how ya deal with that...
>[stuff deleted]
>> As these things go, it's near impossible ot be 100% self-sufficient in a game
>> without "A" resources. But it is much more realistic and requires
some
>> thought about how to do things as opposed to just pointing at gadget X on
>> the character sheet.
>
>Exactly! I am playing an Elf physical adept and as I had to wast A
>and B for race and magic. As you can imagine, I have only a few
>skills (can't even shoot straight) and I started the game with 500
>nuyen. Tell me about getting some money! I even had problems
>purchasing my first weapon :-)
>I think this makes for a lot more rrealism. Our rigger started with A
>and he has a heli, drones and tons of other stuff. No fun if you ask
>me. Where is the thrill when you hold a HK227 for the first time
>after just risking your life for it ;-)
>But another problem. Would it be too unbalancing to allow metahumans
>with race on E? I mean, after all you runner group doesn't consist of
>the average citizens. Oh well, just that I wish I could put skills on
>C :-)

Well, in the game I keep threatening to run, I plan to just have my players
think up an idea for a character, pass it by me, write up a background for
the character, and then finish it. Not that the SR system is bad, but I've
always felt that the character should be writtem up along with his stats,
not after his stats. Also, my players don't seem to have a great desire to
read the book :( (It's a half-confused, half-saddened-by-this-shortcoming
smiley, often mistaken for a frowning smiley ;)

This is, of course, all dependant on my getting up enough courage to GM.

>--- Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups ---
Hmmm...I like... :)

>>>>>>> Nate
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
| NTWalker@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US |
| a.k.a. The Joker |
| |
| Have you ever danced with the devil in that pale moonlight? |
| - Joker |
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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Message no. 30
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 12:23:57 +0100
Gurth wrote:
> Jani Fikouras said on 9 Oct 95...
>
> > > I don't give away free cras (I hardly give anything for free :), if the
> > > player doesn't have the cash to buy a car but does buy a certain
> > > lifestyle, it's only the house and furniture in my game :)
> >
> > I dodnt say that he gets to own a free car, nevertheless the lifestyle
> > description makes it clear that a middle lifestyle includes the use of
> > a car. I take it that means that the character gets to use a rented of
> > leased (sp?) car or something. If he trashes it however he's got to pay
> > for it.
>
> You're right about the description, but I tend to read that as "Joe
> Average with a Middle Lifestyle owns a car." It might make an interesting
> idea, though, give a player a car and make him pay for it if he kills it
> :)

Yes rhis idea is pretty coll because it solves the mobility problem and
allows players to move around freely (provided they have at least a middle
lifestyle). Most charcters dont have a car and denying them mobility can
make things pretty drekky.
OTOH you get to make them pay through the nose when they wreck the car
and believe me that happens all too often :)

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 31
From: HALOWEEN JACK <SBC3KCB@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 13:10:39 GMT
i like the idea you have about giving pc's access to a car depending
on there life style although i haven't included myself but i do give
my pc's a vehicular skill of 1 for free. note this is only car or
bike as most people by the age of 16 have driven if not they have a
rudimentary idea on how to drive a bike or a car.
Message no. 32
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 12:18:31 -0500
>
> i like the idea you have about giving pc's access to a car depending
> on there life style although i haven't included myself but i do give
> my pc's a vehicular skill of 1 for free. note this is only car or
> bike as most people by the age of 16 have driven if not they have a
> rudimentary idea on how to drive a bike or a car.
>
Speak for yerself. In Chicago and New York, more than half of my friends
don't know how to drive. And a good half of those that do SUCK, Ie no better
than defaulting.
Yes, you get acess to a car with lifestyle. NO, that does not mean you won't
crash in a highspeed chase. Admitadly, skill 1 is pathetic, but defaulting is
just as easy. Also, do not assume that 2053 is anything like today, transport
wise. Nieghborhoods could be much more insular- the "everybody drives"
phenominon is a recent and, imho, aberent one.
Message no. 33
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 17:58:08 -0400
On Tue, 10 Oct 1995, Sebastian Wiers wrote:

> Speak for yerself. In Chicago and New York, more than half of my friends
> don't know how to drive. And a good half of those that do SUCK, Ie no better
> than defaulting.

Well, where I grew up, there was a better than average chance
that winter would bring several inches or even feet of snow in a single
night (Lake-effect snow, gotta love it). Most of the people I know who
learned how to drive beater cars (like old rear-wheel-drive
station-wagons) in hard winters (myself included) drive quite well
because if we don't we're wiped out all over the road before we're
seventeen.

Marc
Message no. 34
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 12:17:38 +0100
Jani Fikouras said on 10 Oct 95...

> > You're right about the description, but I tend to read that as "Joe
> > Average with a Middle Lifestyle owns a car." It might make an interesting
> > idea, though, give a player a car and make him pay for it if he kills it
> > :)
>
> Yes rhis idea is pretty coll because it solves the mobility problem and
> allows players to move around freely (provided they have at least a middle
> lifestyle). Most charcters dont have a car and denying them mobility can
> make things pretty drekky.

I tend to say to players whose characters don't have a car or bike or
whatever "There's always the bus..." Then they get embarrassed because
they have to take the bus to escape from a crime scene, but once I explain
the alternative (walking) they gladly walk to the nearest bus stop :)

> OTOH you get to make them pay through the nose when they wreck the car
> and believe me that happens all too often :)

I normally use the "rules" from Harlequin when renting a car -- 1% of its
purchase cost per day, including full insurance. Maybe I shouldn't :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Feel free, but don't feel too comfortable
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 35
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 13:59:35 +0100
Sebastian Wiers wrote:
> Speak for yerself. In Chicago and New York, more than half of my friends
> don't know how to drive. And a good half of those that do SUCK, Ie no better
> than defaulting.
> Yes, you get acess to a car with lifestyle. NO, that does not mean you won't
> crash in a highspeed chase. Admitadly, skill 1 is pathetic, but defaulting is
> just as easy.

Dont forget the rule of 1. A skill of 1 means that you have one chance
out of six to botch things up.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 36
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 23:09:48 +0930
Jani Fikouras wrote:
>
> Sebastian Wiers wrote:
> Dont forget the rule of 1. A skill of 1 means that you have one chance
> out of six to botch things up.

Skill 1 is bloody dangerous... If you've got a decent controlling
attribute, you've really dropped your chances of at least one success, and
you can't get any more.

Save up until you've got enough Karma to get it at least at 3...

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 37
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 15:14:20 +0100
Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> Jani Fikouras wrote:
> >
> > Sebastian Wiers wrote:
> > Dont forget the rule of 1. A skill of 1 means that you have one chance
> > out of six to botch things up.
>
> Skill 1 is bloody dangerous... If you've got a decent controlling
> attribute, you've really dropped your chances of at least one success, and
> you can't get any more.
>
> Save up until you've got enough Karma to get it at least at 3...

Yep, I forgot all about it until I got to play as a player (hurray:)
once again after a long time and I remembered how dangerous it can be
the hard way. Imagine a troll riding a viking (in combat) with a skill of
one and an extra passenger :) It was pretty scary, especially for my
passenger :)

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 38
From: Rajan Hollmann <rajan.hollmann@*******.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 16:05:08 +0100
> Yes rhis idea is pretty coll because it solves the mobility problem and
> allows players to move around freely (provided they have at least a middle
> lifestyle). Most charcters dont have a car and denying them mobility can
> make things pretty drekky.
> OTOH you get to make them pay through the nose when they wreck the car
> and believe me that happens all too often :)

Heck, use public transportation as I do, buy a yearly ticket ;-)

Ciao,

Rajan
----------------------------------------------------------
Rajan Hollmann; Quickborn, Germany
rajan.hollmann@*******.netsurf.de
http://www.geopages.com/TimesSquare/1504
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Message no. 39
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 21:43:04 -0500
> > Skill 1 is bloody dangerous... If you've got a decent controlling
> > attribute, you've really dropped your chances of at least one success, and
> > you can't get any more.

Yes, I wanted a ultimately fast sam (don't boo- he really helps the group)- no
point in ever learning vehicle skills- cant get a datjack, and defaulting to
16 dice is better in mos cases (except maybe choppers and other air
vehicles). Besides, I find high taget # amusing- I get a some stun in almost
every fight. Just happens. It's part protecting my mates, part tactically
drawing fire (even though I'm the slowest to heal, I'm usually the least hurt)
Message no. 40
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: "Too powerful" problem
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:11:30 +0100
Robert Watkins said on 11 Oct 95...

> Skill 1 is bloody dangerous...

Which is why I like them :) (Not just as a GM, mind you, as a player
too...) Skills of 2 are also nice, anything over 2 makes for very (too)
slim chances of rolling a fumble for my taste.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Thou shalt not eat the fruits of the tree known as the "Carrot Tree."
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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