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Message no. 1
From: Steve Collins einan@*********.net
Subject: To paul and every one interesting (was The Shiawase Decision Appealed?)
Date: Sun, 9 May 99 16:52:57 -0400
On 5/9/99 3:34 pm, Ahuizotl said:

>Im not sure if this must be a private mail or a public so sorry if a
>disturbe mail readers.
>
>Before answer the points you put in the others attachments.
>One question Paul (please no offence intencion) You want to make a point
>or you want to win the argument?
>
>If you want to win ok Paul you win Next subject. And I dont spend the
>time in and argument that can go and go withuot a finish line.
>
>If you want to make a point I have a request Paul please.
>Give me a scenary when you see the coprs win the confrontation.
>If you are unable to see any oportunity to the corps to win, then this
>discusion is "drain off". Is going to be like punching a wall, with time
>you can brake down the wall but nither the man that punch neither the
>wall learn anything.
>
>In my point of view there are many way UCAS can win
>
}}snip ways the UCAS or any other country can win{{

Ok you want a scenario where the corps can win. This entire setup always
requires a crisis precipitated by corp action. The corp accepts the
limitations on their power for a few years, pays the fines and plays by
the rules. Then an election or two down the road they for all intents and
purposes buy it getting their own man elected. Now they use marketing to
get public opinion on their side and get back what they lost. If there is
no crisis then there will be no action on the part of the government
because everybody, politicians and execs, is getting what they want. If
there is a crisis of the level that the public is crying for the heads of
the corp and the government is forced to act then the corp stands no
chance in the long run there is just no way to remain proffitable while
essentially being at war with a major nation. If this problem happens in
Liberia well they can really just walk over the government as they may
very well have more military assets than that government. There is one
place where the corps can probably cause serious damage to the
government. That is in the Matrix. Corps will have likely created the
systems the governments use and certainly will have more deckers on hand
to assault the government data systems. The problem is that they can only
affect connected systems. The really important stuff is likely to have
been isolated from the rest of the world. Who would help the UCAS given
the history as written almost certainly the CAS, some of the NAN at least
would take the UCAS's side, the rest would likely remain neutral. Britan
possibly as they wouldn't mind getting some of their power back, Cal Free
definately although between the Tir and San Fran they may not be able to
provide much, some of the German states are a possibility and there
hasn't much else detailed. Some of the smaller 3rd wolrd countries would
also join especially ones that have been Jacked over by the corps but
most would wait it out and see who was winning before picking sides. The
problem is that there is no way for a corp to pull out on short notice as
a fait accompli. There are many ways the Government can act to end the
conflict overnight. Corps can not afford a long drawn out conflict and so
will avoid it at all costs. The other way the corp can win would be if
the crisis were precipitated by National action and not Corp. The public
sentament would be on their side and several nations would actively
support them and may even declare war on the rogue nation.

Steve
Message no. 2
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: To paul and every one interesting (was The Shiawase Decision Appealed?)
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 22:35:29 +0100
In article <3735E347.7E54807F@***.telmex.net.mx>, Ahuizotl
<cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx> writes
>Im not sure if this must be a private mail or a public so sorry if a
>disturbe mail readers.
>
>Before answer the points you put in the others attachments.
>One question Paul (please no offence intencion) You want to make a point
>or you want to win the argument?
>
>If you want to win ok Paul you win Next subject. And I dont spend the
>time in and argument that can go and go withuot a finish line.
>
>If you want to make a point I have a request Paul please.
>Give me a scenary when you see the coprs win the confrontation.

The UCAS decides to slap hefty import duties on imported (including those
made in extraterritorial facilities within the UCAS) corporate goods to
"protect domestic manufacturers". That'll last all of, oh, two or three days
before it gets struck down.

Consumers whine about the prices going up, domestic manufacturers hike
their prices to almost match (tariffs as policy, rather than punishment,
never seem to do much good) and 'targeted shortages' of particular
favourite consumer favourites rouse protest and discontent within the
UCAS. Since this measure affects all the corporations, support for it is all
but universal, preventing anyone from breaking ranks (what does anyone
gain from this?)

Various (declared and legal) contributions to congressional PACs help focus
legislative attention on the problem. News reports hint that the Denton
Bill's tariffs were the result of a UCAS-based conglomerate having
incriminating trideo of Senator Denton in a Milwaukee motel with a Boy
Scout troop and a bag of BTL chips, offering the UCAS a face-saving exit:
it wasn't their fault, it was Senator Denton, throw him to the wolves and
business can go back to normal.


The corporations can win easily, provided their goals are mutually agreed,
to most corporations' benefit, and the cost to the UCAS of their victory is
low enough not to provoke a violent response. When one corporation takes
on a nation, though, it's likely to get messy, and against the top-tier
nations the corporation is likely to lose.

Which is why such confrontations seem to be extremely rare in
Shadowrun...


The nations don't have much _need_ to take on a corporation that pays a
reasonable facsimile of its tax liability and isn't caught breaking the law
too flagrantly. Nor do they want to: for all the bluster, the corporations
exist, the nations exist, both have serious and significant problems,
neither have much to gain by expending resources against each other.

The problem I see mostly comes when a corporation decides to muscle a
nation: nations have a lot more ability to resist than many seem to
realise. And yet it keeps coming up, that any corporation can kick any
nation's butt... and that appears, to me at least, to be _so_ untrue.

>First If other nations support UCAS effort
>My idea is that NAN could do it ( i take the idea from a early
>contribution sorry i donīt remember the name right now). The only
>cuestion is WHY? they hate the MEGAS but they hate UCAS also, im still
>waiting for someone to answer this.

In 1945 Britain, France, the US, Canada, et cetera hated Germany, were
busy invading it even. In 1955 Germany was a key, trusted, military ally.

Things change. Remember, the UCAS is _not_ the United States that NAN
broke away from: for sure the UCAS has more common interest with NAN
than the corporations do. The NAN know they kicked the US military out
of their homelands: they know, and they know the UCAS are aware, that
reconquest of the Native lands is not an option.

I doubt that there's a deep and amiable friendship, but for sure there's
working relationships between the UCAS and its NAN neighbours.

>CAS im not sure i will wait to heard everybody opinion it is UCAS vs CAS
>or UCAS + CAS. The familie isue and things like that i don eat it, see
>yugoslavia.

Yugoslavia's a relatively special case: the various ethnic groups there were
killing each other centuries before Columbus sighted the Americas.

See rather issues like the various Commonwealth states, once part of the
British Empire but now independent. Are we officially planning to
reconquer India, Canada, Australia, or any of the other former Dominions?
Of course not. Yet they remain friends and allies, even though they
seperated from us.


--
Paul J. Adam

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