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Message no. 1
From: RLONERGA@****
Subject: Totem
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 18:29:00 CDT
May the light of Elbereth shine!!!

The Grimoire covers Shamantic magic, insect totems, Toxic Shamans, and
it has new animal totems. It is a definate must have for any mage worth
his salt.


Pax,
Natas Kaupas, streetmage
Message no. 2
From: "Ahern T. Stephan" <MAXIM@****.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Totem....
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 18:16:08 -0600
Just wondering: Is there a Dragon totem?
Message no. 3
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Totem....
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 20:47:51 GMT
>>Just wondering: Is there a Dragon totem?

No, there is not, and most people would agree that there shouldn't be.

If you really want to re-open this debate, review what has already been said.
In brief:

A totem must have been worshipped by (meta)humanity at some point in history.
Hence no dinosaur totems. One theory holds that a totem is formed by the
collective power of those who pay homage to it. Keep in mind that just because
you follow one totem instead of the others doesn't mean you don't believe in
or hate the others. Also, you may sacrifice gifts to a totem/spirit/pez god
without being magically active.

Were the gods of Ancient Greece totems? Some people say yes, some no. You'll
have to decide for yourself. It make sense in one way since the gods also
had responsibility for the forces of nature. But, because they had different
powers, it can be difficult to write a god totem. Also, referring back to the
worship argument above, a GM could rule that pagan gods have failed as totems
because hardly anyone worships them anymore. . .leading the way to a revival,
if enough people go back.

Vinnie Esposito wrote of a Dragon Cult in NYC (see NAGEE). They worshipped
Tirandor. Tirandor, of course, is not a totem, but you could extrapolate that
if enough people worship dragons worldwide, a dragon totem appears and a
shaman comes on the scene.

Now, if you scrap the entire If-you-believe-it-will-come theory (aka the
Costner Postulation) then you can pretty much do what you want (which any
good GM already knows). Maybe they don't exist. Maybe dragon totems don't
select (meta)humans. Maybe the work only with Dragons, or reptiles, or
dragon-headed pez dispensers. Maybe they just drink beer and watch the
Superbowl.

Finally, a dragon totem doesn't have to be especially powerful, at least
no more powerful than owl or snake. The problem here is that most people
think Dragonºdass, therefore Dragon Totemºdass Totem. Depending on
how you write it, you could use it for NPCs only (like Insect and Toxic
Shamans).


J Roberson
Message no. 4
From: Neal A Porter <nap@*****.PHYSICS.SWIN.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Totem....
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 13:57:11 +1100
>
>Just wondering: Is there a Dragon totem?
>

Theres no actual Dragon totem defined in any of the books as such
but there are a number of similar totems. The Wyrm totem for the Welsh
driuds for example, and the Serpent totem for the Tir nan Og { I think thats
how its spelt }. But these dont try to encompass all the aspects of a dragon
totem.
Lets face it if there was a dragon totem, do you think the Great dragons
would allow themselves to be sullied by the conetations that they are no
better than others such as Dog or Cat.

If you want to make such a totem, the only thing I could suggest would be
that the totem should be VERY powerful.

Regards
Adeus
Message no. 5
From: Ben Acosta <BACOSTA1@*****.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Totem....
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 20:54:27 CST
>Just wondering: Is there a Dragon totem?
>

Theres no actual Dragon totem defined in any of the books as such
but there are a number of similar totems. The Wyrm totem for the Welsh
driuds for example, and the Serpent totem for the Tir nan Og { I think thats
how its spelt }. But these dont try to encompass all the aspects of a dragon
totem.
Lets face it if there was a dragon totem, do you think the Great dragons
would allow themselves to be sullied by the conetations that they are no
better than others such as Dog or Cat.

If you want to make such a totem, the only thing I could suggest would be
that the totem should be VERY powerful.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I believe it says in the book that some Dragons follow the Shamanic
Tradition for their magic. So it goes to reason that Great Dragons would have
Dragon as their totem. Dragon would be the quintessential dragon, the ideal
that all dragons strive to live up to. I think this would make it a Great
Dragon exclusive totem, since one has to have an idea about what one's totem
stands for in order to relate to it. Of course, if a dragon chose to enlighten
someone into the nature of Dragon, it might be concievable that he could take
take it as a totem. This possibility is highly unlikely, however. This is
just a theory of mind that I came up off the top of my head when I saw this
post. YMMV.

+-------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
:Benjamin J. Acosta : "When dog bites man, it's not a story. :
:BACOSTA1@*****.UA.EDU : When man bites dog, it's a story. :
:Science Fiction Fan : And when man and dog slug it out for :
:Comic Book Reader : twelve issues and the dog turns out :
:Role Playing Gamer : to be a mutant and Wolverine has a :
:Renaissance Man : guest appearance, It's a Marvel story!" :
:THIS SPACE FOR RENT : --A saying in the Marvel Comics Bullpen :
+-------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
Message no. 6
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Totem....
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 13:12:53 +0930
>
>>>Just wondering: Is there a Dragon totem?
>
>No, there is not, and most people would agree that there shouldn't be.
>
Actually there is: Wyrm, in London Sourcebook. (I think a more up-to-date
version is in Grimoire II, but FASA may have junked it).


--
Robert Watkins bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
Geek Code: GCS d-(?) p---@ c++++ !l u+ e+(e-)(e*) m+(m-) s-/* n-(n---) h++(h*)
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Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 7
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Totem....
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 21:54:40 GMT
>. . .it goes to reason that Great Dragons would have
>Dragon as their totem. Dragon would be the quintessential dragon, the ideal
>that all dragons strive to live up to. I think this would make it a Great
>Dragon exclusive totem, since one has to have an idea about what one's totem
>stands for in order to relate to it.

Yeah, right. If that were true then only owls could follow owl, snakes could
follow snakes, and Ra could follow the sun (well, the Beatles could too, but
that's another story).

I agree that Dragon could be an exclusive totem, but the line of reasoning
you gave doesn't follow. Dragon is the quintesential dragon; Rat is the
quintessential Rat; Humans can follow Rat, why can't they follow Dragon?
Without giving them the "Dragons Only" membership clause. I don't think
totems work like that.

Of course, dragons may have their own religion and that may be exclusive,
but that doesn't mean the totems are exclusive.



J Roberson
Message no. 8
From: Douglas Walls <dwalls@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Totem....
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 19:14:01 -0800
Not really the closest you can come to a dragon totem is the Duidic totem
of the wyrm from the Grimore II
Yours, Backdraft


On Mon, 15 Nov 1993, Ahern T. Stephan wrote:

> Just wondering: Is there a Dragon totem?
Message no. 9
From: Role Playing Manager <moria@*****.EERIE.FR>
Subject: Re: Totem....
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 08:14:53 GMT
>From Ahern T. Stephan

> Just wondering: Is there a Dragon totem?
>

I think not because dragons are powerful beings. Look at the existing totems,
they are all simple animals, not magically active in our world. If you want a
dragon totem, I think you must want also a cockatrix totem, a wendigo totem...


Ben - NightWolf

-=-=-

+-----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
| Benjamin Legangneux | "How can you find your way in the shadows, |
| | If you have no light ?" |
| e-mail : moria@*****.fr | |
| legangne@*****.fr | Michael Styx - Tales of the Black Dove |
+-----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
Message no. 10
From: Fahnuir <FAHNUIR@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Totem....
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 12:32:07 PRT
> If you want to make such a totem, the only thing I could suggest would be
>that the totem should be VERY powerful.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Well, I believe it says in the book that some Dragons follow the Shamanic
>Tradition for their magic. So it goes to reason that Great Dragons would have
>Dragon as their totem. Dragon would be the quintessential dragon, the ideal

Why should Dragons have themselves as their totem?
Why can't humans have HUMAN as their totem?
Why can't elves have ELF as their totem?
I think that each individual has it's own ideal, and i think that the ideal o
f living for Dunkelzahn is diferent of the ideal of living for Lofwyr.

>that all dragons strive to live up to. I think this would make it a Great
>Dragon exclusive totem, since one has to have an idea about what one's totem


Fahnuir

In your room, i feel you and i just cant get enough...
Judas
Message no. 11
From: Neal A Porter <nap@*****.PHYSICS.SWIN.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Totem....
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 12:17:54 +1100
>
>>From Ahern T. Stephan
>
>> Just wondering: Is there a Dragon totem?
>>
>
>I think not because dragons are powerful beings. Look at the existing totems,
>they are all simple animals, not magically active in our world. If you want a
>dragon totem, I think you must want also a cockatrix totem, a wendigo totem...
>
>
> Ben - NightWolf

As far as i can tell from SR a totem represents more than just the animal
in question, it represents the spirit behind that animal. Commenting that
totems are all simple animals is a bit inaccurate, the totem has little to do
with the actual animals, and more to do with the driving spirit behind them.

As such something like a wendigo would be one warped S.O.B, if they
existed. I do agree though that a Dragon Totem would be unsuitable for
player control, but is doesn't mean they cann't exist, nor do I mean that only
Dragons could use this totem. Just that any decision to use such a totem,
or ANY new totem is up to the GM and players in question.

Regards
Adeus
Message no. 12
From: George Campbell <daishi@*******.EECS.NWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Totem....
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 03:08:05 CST
>
> A totem must have been worshipped by (meta)humanity at some point in history.
> Hence no dinosaur totems. One theory holds that a totem is formed by the
>
Okay who was the sickos that worshipped Insect's in the first place.....
.... I wanna THWAP them...

--
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Message no. 13
From: Ahern T Stephan <maxim@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Totem....
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 11:52:07 -0600
On Thu, 18 Nov 1993, George Campbell wrote:


> .... I wanna THWAP them...

Whay THWAP them when you can more effectively THWACK them. Now, direct
from THWACK Enterprises, comes the all new WET TROUT. Also available is
soaked and dry.

Further Reading

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Thwap!