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From:	Austin Repath <REPATH@*****.HUMBERC.ON.CA>
Subject:	TOTEMS
Date:	Tue, 14 Apr 92 19:01:32 EDT

Message no. 1 Hoi Chummers!

The Grimoire (or whatever) is one supplement for Shadowrun I don't
have. Does it feature any Shaman stuff such as more Animal Totems?
I've been GMing the Missing Blood adventure and the party has
worked there way up to the Frozen World chapter. There is one decker
among them who can play this chapter. What should the rest
of the party do while he does this. It seems like a long chapter
and I don't want them sit'n on there asses. They've accomplished
all the legwork they need, and the decker doesn't want to be
left out of the visit to the Redmond Chapter house. Help.

THE YONDERBOY

From:	SHADE <MFN6430@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject:	totems
Date:	Mon, 26 Jul 1993 11:14:45 -0500

Message no. 2 I do not have a problem with Thor as a totem in and of itself.
The problem is that by all the definitions I have ever read shamans worship
animal spirits. Druids worship nature itself. Priests or clerics are the
ones who would worship gods such as Thor or Zeus. The thought processes would
be as different as those of Shamans and Mages. Now a new class, hmmmmm.
Isbin and Thurmite

From:	"Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: totems
Date:	Mon, 26 Jul 1993 13:36:09 -0500

Message no. 3 On Mon, 26 Jul 1993, SHADE wrote:

> I do not have a problem with Thor as a totem in and of itself.
> The problem is that by all the definitions I have ever read shamans worship
> animal spirits. Druids worship nature itself. Priests or clerics are the
> ones who would worship gods such as Thor or Zeus. The thought processes would
> be as different as those of Shamans and Mages. Now a new class, hmmmmm.

How is a shaman any different than a priest? (not a flame :-)

{[> Robert A. Hayden ____ #include <std_disclaimer.h> <]}
{[> \ /__ ------------------------------- <]}
{[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ / Bigotry is what is incompatible <]}
{[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ with military service. <]}
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"In My Egotistical Opinion, most people's C programs should be indented
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-- Blair P. Houghton
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From:	Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject:	Re: totems
Date:	Tue, 27 Jul 1993 09:31:15 +1000

Message no. 4 Robert asks:

> How is a shaman any different than a priest? (not a flame :-)

I believe that priests work to a codified set of rules (like the bible
or the koran), while shamen work from personal experience - so each shaman
is different (though not completely, since they _are_ `taught').

You know - interpreting the signs that they see around them in the
everyday world as having a deeper significance, that reveals the actions
of the spirits that are moving behind the scenes we all see.

luke@$0.02

From:	Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: totems
Date:	Mon, 26 Jul 1993 20:12:42 EDT

Message no. 5 >>>>> "Luke" == Luke Kendall <luke@********.canon.oz.au>
writes:

Luke> Robert asks:
> How is a shaman any different than a priest? (not a flame :-)

Luke> I believe that priests work to a codified set of rules (like the
Luke> bible or the koran), while shamen work from personal experience - so
Luke> each shaman is different (though not completely, since they _are_
Luke> `taught').

Luke is correct. Technically, priests would come under the hermetic
tradition, not the shamanistic. A magically active Roman Catholic priest,
for example, would be some kind of hermetic adept. He would have access to
health and detection spells, and would be able to banish 'evil' spirits.
His methodology would include recitations from the Bible and very specific
prayers--this is what makes him 'hermetic' rather than 'shamanistic' [the
movie "The Exorcist" is a perfect example of this kind of thing]. A Shinto
priestess would be quite similar mechanically, but her specific rituals
would be different (he uses the Crucifix, she has the 'exorcising papers',
etc).

BTW, the plural of "shaman" is "shamans".

Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat
PGP Public Key Block available upon request Ask about rat-pgp.el v1.61
||||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||||
You are *utterly* the stupidest, most *self-centered*, appallingest *excuse*
for an anthromoporphic personification on *this* or any *other* plane!
--Death, to her younger brother Dream

From:	"Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject:	Totems
Date:	Mon, 26 Jul 1993 23:02:28 -0500

Message no. 6 ERROR: This message seems to be empty. It is located at LOG9307D.RN::295424,288.

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@********.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: totems
Date:	Tue, 27 Jul 1993 15:11:53 +0930

Message no. 7 Robert Hayden writes, in reply to someone else:
[Stuff about shamans,druids,mages,and priests being different that Robert
quoted deleted. ]
>
>How is a shaman any different than a priest? (not a flame :-)
>

IMHO, all the difference is one of sophistication. Shamans/druids worship
aspects of nature. Priests worship gods who, typically, are personifications of
aspects of nature. Historically, priests called other priests shamans to deride
them.

As a little thought: The Catholic Church is known to keep both mages and
shamans on their payroll, as certified priests. (See "Choose your enemies
carefully").

--
Robert Watkins
bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
************ It wouldn't be luck if you could get out of life alive. ***********

From:	Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject:	totems
Date:	Thu, 14 Oct 1993 13:42:10 -0700

Message no. 8 Questions - when I post Panther to tome do you want me to include the rather
long creature description?

Possum - hows about +2 for illusion, health and non-damaging manipulations
DOn't really think the thermo suits though - There are a lot of night
creature totems - and they don't do things like that. Also Possums aren't that
great at seeing at night - they still get hit.

disadvantage
-2 dice combat and damaging manipulation.
also +2 tn for dodging cars
and will 4 not to play dead in a fight?

:)
Oh can I feel the thwapss just waiting for this post

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Waisley + SCA - March of Ered Sul - Flagstaff AZ
DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU + Nau fencing club.
"Nightfox" + Brotherhood of the Cryptic Demesne - Fencing house
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" A lack of knowledge is a dangerous thing. I am the most dangerous man in the
universe." - Daniel Waisley "Nightfox"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Chris Ryan <chrisr@*******.FIT.QUT.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: totems
Date:	Fri, 15 Oct 1993 08:53:19 EST

Message no. 9 ERROR: This message seems to be empty. It is located at LOG9310B.RN::455937,263.

From:	The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: totems
Date:	Thu, 14 Oct 1993 20:25:32 -0500

Message no. 10 >Not from I - I'm working towards a thwap-free world... :-)

Not from ME, sir. Please. In light of this error, perhaps Possums should
be burdened with +2 to their Spelling Target Numbers. :)

J Roberson

From:	Chris Ryan <chrisr@*******.FIT.QUT.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: totems
Date:	Fri, 15 Oct 1993 11:37:54 EST

Message no. 11 > >Not from I - I'm working towards a thwap-free world... :-)
>
> Not from ME, sir. Please. In light of this error, perhaps Possums should
> be burdened with +2 to their Spelling Target Numbers. :)

Grammatical Expressions, perhaps, but not spelling. :-)

In light of your error, I'm afraid you'll have to abstain from corrections
for a week and then personally email everyone on the net who misuse
"your" and "you're" with a 5 page article describing correct use
thereof.

:-)

Chris

From:	Chris Ryan <chrisr@*******.FIT.QUT.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: totems
Date:	Fri, 15 Oct 1993 13:03:08 EST

Message no. 12 > > personally email everyone on the net who misuse
>
> I'm sorry, that should be misuses
> ^

I disagree that the plural is necessary, however I will concede that you
might be correct.

> You've clearly mixed your tenses here. Don't worry, though, Timothy Leary says
> that grammar is dying.

It's old age...

OBSR(sort-of): Perhaps there's a need for a spell that spells? :-)

Chris

From:	"Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject:	Totems....
Date:	Mon, 15 Nov 1993 22:00:42 -0600

Message no. 13 I still vote for following the great totem MTV.

Or Madonna.....

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
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n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)

From:	Fahnuir All Aidur <FAHNUIR@******.BITNET>
Subject:	Totems
Date:	Fri, 7 Jan 1994 13:45:39 PRT

Message no. 14 Hi... I'm back... ( Oh... U must be sooooo happy... )

I want to ask something to all u magicians and Biologists on this list :

The character of one of my players ( an elf wizard ) had sex with an ins
ect spirit ( An ant queen... But don't ask me details.... ).
I want to know if there is any chance of having a child ( i think that th
e elf wouldn't like the idea... ). I know that in Missing Blood there is a weir
d baby, but i don't remember why he existed ( I think she was already pregnant.
..).

Also, i want to know if anyone has created new totems (including insect to
tems, like Lady Bug *grin* or Grasshopper *humm... nice.*

C u...

Fahnuir All Aidur, High Prince of Tir Ur Den

From:	"C. Paul Douglas" <granite@********.CLARK.NET>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Fri, 7 Jan 1994 18:22:46 -0500

Message no. 15 On Fri, 7 Jan 1994, Fahnuir All Aidur wrote:
> The character of one of my players ( an elf wizard ) had sex with an ins
> ect spirit ( An ant queen... But don't ask me details.... ).
> I want to know if there is any chance of having a child ( i think that th
> e elf wouldn't like the idea... ). I know that in Missing Blood there is a weir
> d baby, but i don't remember why he existed ( I think she was already pregnant.
> ..).
If the Ant Queen was already heavy with eggs the possibilities are high
for mutant offspring..I believe that ant eggs are normally fertilize
externally - it may be that some ant fertilize internally and some
externally - whichever it is There would most likely be a few little
critters running around looking for elf daddy.
------------------------GRANITE

From:	"Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject:	Totems
Date:	Mon, 10 Jan 1994 20:14:20 -0800

Message no. 16 Minotaur asked:

>> But what are we talking here Jason...

>> Is Time the relevant factor- does it have to be over an extended
>> period of time?

Time must be a major factor in the formation of Totems. If it were not there
would be an huge number totems that were the results of fads that lasted for
mere decades. Also, the formation of a Myth requires time. Once a Myth is
formed in resonates in the psyche of humanity and a Totem, or Spirit class
is created. All the Totems and Spirits in SR are based off of long standing
myths.

>> How about the amount of people- there has surely been a decline
>> in the number of people who follow shamanic paths today as there
>> were in the past... is it some running tally that after X number
>> the concept is imbued with totemic standing or do they have to
>> maintain a membership standard? ie As long as they have X number
>> or worshippers they are imbued bud should they fall below this
>> criteria they are no longer empowered?

The answer is simple. It's hard to create a Totem, but it's easy to maintain
one. As long as there were people (Indian or not) the Totems continued to
exist. Once the Awakening took place, the Totems reached out and grabbed
followers. This drew more people to believe in them.

>> Then look at how many people there are in the US, or world for
>> that matter, and how many have television (US = 98% of all homes)
>> sets. Then take a look at the frightening research performed in
>> the field of communication that demonstrates how the average
>> person uses television, including fictional entertainment
>> programs, as guidelines for their daily lives. Television as a
>> whole is a damn powerful tool of the socialization process.

Very true. The only things that stand in the way of a future TV totem are
the fact that TV is Technology, and the fact that people use TV as
entertainment, not as a why of life (excluding Coach Potatoes).

>>There wouldn't be a "Pope" totem because the Pope isn't worshipped. But
>>Catholicism's "God" has been worshipped for quite some time, and he
would
>>have certain Totemic properties. Actually, Catholicism would have three
>>"Totems:" God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit/Ghost.

I agree that there would be no Pope Totem. In fact there could never be a
Totem based upon an actual person. Totems are the idealized basic essence
of a creature or object. If that creature is a specific individual there
basic essence is every facet of them, way too much to be idealized.

As for Trinity Totems, I would have to disagree. The Three are One and where
One is all Three are. You can't divide them. They are merely aspects of one
being.

>>Historically the Roman Catholic Church wouldn't have very many full
>>magicians, but it would have a goodly share of spellcasting or conjuring
>>Adepts, many of which have been cannonized as Saints. (Ever wonder how
>>"miracles" are performed or "demons" are exorcized)?

Why would they be adepts and not full magicians? Miracles and exercisims were
often performed by the same individuals. Just look at your average Tele-
evengalist :)

>>However, the shamanic
>>approach isn't necessarilly appropriate to the RCC. RCC mages perform
>>magic through precise formula (prayers, hymns, etc.), whether to cast a
>>spell or banish a spirit/elemental (RCC mages do not usually conjure
>>spirits, though they will banish/exorcize them). And the concept of a
>>totem doesn't mesh with the mysteries: a totem /is/ what it is (Bear is
>>everything that is bear); but this same naturalness and organicness is
>>missing from the RCC God (God is everything that is god... it just doesn't
>>work).

The RCC in Shadowrun recognizes Totems as valid. However I would have to agree
that most magicians in the clergy would be mages.

===============================================================================
See Ya in Shadows, "Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer."
Jason J Carter -- Deep Throat, The X-Files
The Nightstalker Carter@***.EDU

From:	Twist <winterh@******.EMICH.EDU>
Subject:	Totems
Date:	Tue, 11 Jan 1994 13:39:06 EDT

Message no. 17 Bleh, I've had trouble replying to mail from the list so I
hope this one actually makes it.

RE Gator:
I think there is more to Gator being an urban totem than
simply the UrbanLegend of alligators in the sewers. I think
that Gator would be an urban totem for the same reasons that
Raccoon is. Raccoons and Gators have been pushed out of their
natural environment and have been forced to adapt to survive
in an urban setting. I think that if there was a Seagull totem
that it too would be both a wilderness and urban totem for the
same reasons as Raccoon and Gator.
I'm not sure if FASA had this reasoning in mind at all (but then
who can be?) when they decided to make Gator an urban totem
also or not, but it does make sense.

RE Inanimate things as Totems:
Someone said that Totems had to be living things and then
someone else pointed out that there are totems for Sun and
for Oak. If you think about it the totems are all something
that exist in Nature. This would make the Mtv totem that
someone was talking about not fit.
The totems aren't exactly religions but the DO stand for
certain concepts. While the christian god stands for certain
things it wouldn't make a good totem because it the things it
stands for are too broad, it's not just a simple concept.
(besides the fact that religious looneys everywhere would
crucify FASA for using a real religion)

From:	Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:	Totems
Date:	Tue, 26 Apr 1994 15:39:05 -0500

Message no. 18 Does anyone know of a totem that gives its bonus to Manipulation and
Illusion spells, or know of a file where I can look? Sorry, but I don't have
my sourcebooks with me. Thanx.

Matt

I refuse to have a .sig

From:	"C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Tue, 26 Apr 1994 23:49:34 -0400

Message no. 19 On Tue, 26 Apr 1994, Matt wrote:

> Matt
>
> I refuse to have a .sig
>
Ah..but that is a sig.......
--------------------------GRANITE

From:	steven mancini <mancinis@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Wed, 27 Apr 1994 02:44:06 EST

Message no. 20 In response to Our Lucky Contestant:
]
] Does anyone know of a totem that gives its bonus to Manipulation and
] Illusion spells, or know of a file where I can look? Sorry, but I don't have
] my sourcebooks with me. Thanx.
]
"For all the money and the chance at ten thousand dollars...
name the totem that provides a bonus to Manipulation and
Illusion spells..."

+------------------------+
| MOON |
+------------------------+
| ======== 2 ===========|
+------------------------+
| ======== 3 ===========| <--- Cheesy "Family Feud" Board
+------------------------+
| ======== 4 ===========|
+------------------------+
| ======== 5 ===========|
+------------------------+

Da Minotaur

+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| Steve Mancini | mancinis@******.cc.purdue.edu |
| Department of Political Science | phi@****.cc.purdue.edu |
]#######################################################################[
| The most merciful thing in the world... |
| is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. |
| - H. P. Lovecraft |
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+

From:	William Field <wrfield@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Wed, 27 Apr 1994 10:10:23 EDT

Message no. 21 A nice large list of totems can be found, I believe, on teetot in
pub/Beelzebub/Role-Playing/Shadowrun/NAGEE. However, I wouldn't quote me
I that, it might be on some other ftp site.

Bill

From:	"Willard M. Cottrell" <UGCOTTRE@******.BITNET>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Wed, 27 Apr 1994 11:41:55 EDT

Message no. 22 Re: Totems with bonuses for Illusion AND Manipulation
Using only the big black book - No Grimthingy Yet :-(
*Drum roll please*
NONE!!! - Too bad!
But here's the break down...
Illusion:Cat, Rat, Snake
Manipulation:Raccoon, Raven
Sorry. No dice with the BBB

+-=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=-+-=--=--=--=--=--=---=--=--=--=--=--=-+
| Willard Martin Cottrell | /| ///// |
Bitnet: UGCOTTRE@****** <
=======================<<<<<=
| Internet: UGCOTTRE@*****.CIS.ECU.EDU | �| �� |
+-=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=-+-=--=--=--=--=--=---=--=--=--=--=--=-+
Indian Pledge of Allegiance

I pledge allegiance to my Tribe, to the democratic priciples of the Republic
and to the individual freedoms borrowed from the Iroquois and Choctaw
Confederacies, as incorporated in the United States Constitution,
so that my forefathers shall not have died in vain.
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+

From:	Bryan Prince <WALAB@******.HH.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Wed, 27 Apr 1994 11:54:04 -0600

Message no. 23 Has anyone seen the copy of White Wolf Magazine with the Totems? There
were 3-4 pages as I recall, but I don't have it with me right now.
It would have been the Fall 92 issue I think.

Bryan Prince :)

From:	Doctor Doom <jch8169@******.TAMU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Wed, 27 Apr 1994 15:37:12 -0500

Message no. 24 Von Matt:

> Does anyone know of a totem that gives its bonus to Manipulation and
> Illusion spells, or know of a file where I can look? Sorry, but I don't have
> my sourcebooks with me. Thanx.

Von Minotaur:

> "For all the money and the chance at ten thousand dollars...
> name the totem that provides a bonus to Manipulation and
> Illusion spells..."

There is only one Totem which I am certain fulfills the criteria: FOX!

What follows is my own version, using Berin Kinsman's version (as it
appeared in the February 1992 issue of White Wolf Magazine) as an
inspirational springboard.

==============================================================================

FOX

Unlike his cousin, Coyote the Trickster, Fox is the Great Deceiver, the
Manipulator. Typified by Reynard, whose guile and wit were the stuff of
folklore, Fox is the most clever and cunning of all animals. His methods are
Machiavellian to the core: Although his goals may be noble, he will willingly
use deceit and treachery to attain his ends.

Although not cowardly, Fox prefers outwitting rather than overpowering
his enemies, and he particularly delights in the downfall of opponents more
powerful than he--but he is still smart enough not to foolishly risk his skin
just to draw attention to their folly.

Fox does have a (arguably undeserved) reputation as the Backstabber.
True, Fox is master of intrigue and underhandedness; nevertheless, he does
possess a certain sense of honor and loyalty--despite how slow (even reluctant)
he is to give it.

Environment: Forest and Prairie

Advantages: +2 dice to all Manipulation and Illusion Spells
+2 dice to either Forest or Prairie Spirits (Shaman's choice)

Disadvantages: Fox's arrogance cuts both ways. When in the presence of an
individual who has "outfoxed the Fox" he shall suffer a +2
modifier to all Target Numbers (magical and non-magical) and
shall be driven to demonstrate his superiority over his rival.

==============================================================================

Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.

Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@******.tamu.edu ]
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
"Attack, attack, and when in doubt, ATTACK!" -- Frederick the Great of Prussia

From:	"C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Wed, 27 Apr 1994 22:41:13 -0400

Message no. 25 On Wed, 27 Apr 1994, Bryan Prince wrote:

> Has anyone seen the copy of White Wolf Magazine with the Totems? There
> were 3-4 pages as I recall, but I don't have it with me right now.
> It would have been the Fall 92 issue I think.
>
> Bryan Prince :)
>
Yuo...I have a copy of that issue..there is another issue with a nega
magician in it too..
-----------GRANITE

From:	steven mancini <mancinis@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Wed, 27 Apr 1994 23:45:10 EST

Message no. 26 In response to Doctor Doom:
]
] Von Matt:
]
] > Does anyone know of a totem that gives its bonus to Manipulation and
] > Illusion spells, or know of a file where I can look? Sorry, but I don't have
] > my sourcebooks with me. Thanx.
]
] There is only one Totem which I am certain fulfills the criteria: FOX!
]
Sorry Doomster.... Moon can qualify if Matt can handle the totem in
question also receiving a bonus for detection. Off the top of
my head (which means if I am wrong tell me what Moon does get)
Moon shamans receive:
+2 Dice for *Manipulations*
+1 Die for both Detection and *Illusion*
+2 Dice for Water Spirits

This is straight from the Grim II via my memory.....

Da Minotaur

From:	Egil Geir Brautaset <egilbra@***.UNIT.NO>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Thu, 28 Apr 1994 12:31:55 +0200

Message no. 27 On Wed, 27 Apr 1994, C. Paul Douglas wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Apr 1994, Bryan Prince wrote:
>
> > Has anyone seen the copy of White Wolf Magazine with the Totems? There
> > were 3-4 pages as I recall, but I don't have it with me right now.
> > It would have been the Fall 92 issue I think.
> >
> > Bryan Prince :)
> >
> Yuo...I have a copy of that issue..there is another issue with a nega
> magician in it too..

I thought that was an issue of CHALLENGE?

> -----------GRANITE

-- Egil <egilbra@***.unit.no>

From:	"C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Thu, 28 Apr 1994 11:31:05 -0400

Message no. 28 On Thu, 28 Apr 1994, Egil Geir Brautaset wrote:

> > > Has anyone seen the copy of White Wolf Magazine with the Totems? There
> > > were 3-4 pages as I recall, but I don't have it with me right now.
> > > It would have been the Fall 92 issue I think.
> > >
> > Yup...I have a copy of that issue..there is another issue with a nega
> > magician in it too..
>
> I thought that was an issue of CHALLENGE?
>
Can't slip anything past Egil..You read closer that I did...as a matter
of fact for the Nega mage see Challenge #67 and the totems see Challenge
#68 [mink,beaver,heron,and deer]
------------------------------GRANITE

From:	Doctor Doom <jch8169@******.TAMU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Sun, 1 May 1994 01:52:19 -0500

Message no. 29 > Sorry Doomster.... Moon can qualify if Matt can handle the totem in
> question also receiving a bonus for detection. Off the top of
> my head (which means if I am wrong tell me what Moon does get)
> Moon shamans receive:
> +2 Dice for *Manipulations*
> +1 Die for both Detection and *Illusion*
> +2 Dice for Water Spirits
>

Well, as I believe I stated, Herr Minotaur, the only Totem of which I am
CERTAIN meets the stipulated parameters was Fox. I made /no/ claims
regarding it to be the one and only -- I did not have my texts with me at
the time.

[ Yes, I have returned . . . from the land of term papers! ]

Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.

Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@******.tamu.edu ]
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
"Attack, attack, and when in doubt, ATTACK!" -- Frederick the Great of Prussia

From:	Scott Taylor Spencer <sts100z@********.CC.ODU.EDU>
Subject:	Totems
Date:	Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:24:37 -0500

Message no. 30 Anyone out there have ideas/stats for new totems?

Angus Blackwatch the Scotish Troll
Scott Spencer
sts100z@********.cc.odu.edu

From:	Inquisitor <ESPD92MS@****.ANGLIA-POLYTECHNIC.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Wed, 8 Mar 1995 19:41:00 GMT

Message no. 31 There are loads on the publications page on P. Marcucci's page (b.good stuff!)
It has such things as Ant Eaters (they would be great if you were playing
Bug City don't you think?

From:	Philip Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:10:17 +6000

Message no. 32 ( stuff regardingy Minks, wolverine. martin, and fisher)

Now there is some good material for a totem,
Only when trying to follow this up I ended up
with

a ferret totem?

-----

Gurth wrote of carp totem:
>At the time, people were posting lots of totems to the list, and I think I
> got them all on this here diskette, so if anyone wants to see the others,
> tell me and I'll post them...

Sure I'd like to see these, as a passing thought
are any serious / any good?

Phil
<Philip.Hayward@***.UK>

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	totems
Date:	Sat, 1 Apr 1995 11:35:18 +0200

Message no. 33 OK, this should be the bulk of the totems from last year...

-----

To: SHADOWRN@***.SURFnet.nl
Date: Friday, April 29, 1994 11:16 pm
Subject: New Totems (SMTP Id#: 931)

Ok here they are. The totems are: Badger, Otter, Weasel, Horse, Bison, Elk,
Mongoose, Wolverine and Fenrir.

BADGER
Characteristics: Badger is a loner. He is often cranky and can be violent
if disturbed. Badger is a wicked fighter, but rarely attacks if let alone.
Badger shamans dislike working with others, prefering to work on their own.
Enviroment: forest or prairie
Advantages: +2 dice for combat spells, +2 dice for conjuring forest orprairie
(shaman's choice)
Disadvantages: Badger shamans subtract 1 die when cating a spell whileworking
with a group. They subtract 2 dice for group ritual spells.

OTTER
Characteristics: Otter is playful and inquisitive. Otter shamans will often
take a run just because it sounds interesting or fun. Otter likes to play
jokes, but he means well. Otters jokes will often be harmless illusions.
Otter enjoys finding out secrets and then telling everybody.
Enviroment: River or ocean shore
Advantages: +2 dice for illusion spells, +2 dice for river or sea spirits
(shaman's choice), +1 die for detection spells
Disadvantages: Shamans of otter often get themselves in over their head. Otter
is not a great fighter, prefering flight to fight. Otter shamans get -3 dice
for combat spells and -1 die for attack manipulations.

WEASEL
Characteristics: Weasel is sneaky. He dislikes to do anything unless he's
sure he will get something out of it. Weasel is a coward and a thief.
Enviroment: forest
Advantages: +2 dice to illusion spells, +2 dice for conjuring forest spirits
Disadvantages: -2 dice for combat spells. Weasel won't fight unless he's
cornered.

-Laughing Boy, the totem guy

_________________________________________________________________________
I"Elvis the Dark God Above, Below and sometimes Sideways" -Laughing boy I
I I
I"Elvis, long may he reign, his power is eternal"-Laughing boy I
I I
I"Pray for the coming of SMURF!" -Laughing boy I
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: SHADOWRN@***.SURFnet.nl
Date: Friday, April 29, 1994 11:34 pm
Subject: more totems (SMTP Id#: 936)

cont. from before...

HORSE (Nightfox just told me that this is already in the Ireland book, but
I don't care!!!! So bite me!!! Mwah-hah-hah!!!!)
Characteristics: Horse is a strong worker and a free spirit. Even whenslaving
for Man, Horse maintains a fierce pride and unbreakable spirit.
Enviroment: Prairie or Urban
Advantages: +3 dice for conjuring prairie or field spirits (shaman'schoice),
+1 die for Health spells
Disadvantages: When in a confined space (building, thick forest, etc..) +1to
all target numbers

BISON
Characteristics: Bison is a slow mover, but powerful once he gets started.
Bison is a provider for mankind. He is also slow to react and often ignores
what goes on around him.
Enviroment: Prairie
Advantages: +2 dice to Health spells, +2 dice for conjuring prairie spirits
Disadvantages: -2 dice for Detection spells

FENRIR (NPC use only, they get a threat rating)
Characteristics: Fenrir is a mindless hunter. Those who follow him showmany
of the qualities of a Toxic Wolf shaman.
Enviroment: forest
Advantages: +4 dice to any spell cast in combat
Disadvantages: can not summon spirits

almost done....
-Laughing Boy, who is sad because he didn't think of Lemming

_________________________________________________________________________
I"Elvis the Dark God Above, Below and sometimes Sideways" -Laughing boy I
I I
I"Elvis, long may he reign, his power is eternal"-Laughing boy I
I I
I"Pray for the coming of SMURF!" -Laughing boy I
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: SHADOWRN@***.SURFnet.nl
Date: Friday, April 29, 1994 11:45 pm
Subject: Still more totems (SMTP Id#: 938)

cont. from before again...

ELK
Role: Elk is wise in all things. He is a teacher and a protector. Elkalways
places his life in jeopardy to protect the herd. Elk shamans won't hesitate
to take lethal drain to protect others.
Enviroment: marshland, woodland
Advantages: +2 dice for summoning forest spirits and Heath and Detectionspells
Disadvantages: -2 dice to any action that only aids self.

MONGOOSE
Role: Mongoose is a hunter. She prefers to strike swiftly and withsurprise.
Mongoose tries to make her first strike fatal. She dosn't play at fighting.
For her it is always kill or be killed.
Enviroment: jungle or urban
Advantages: +2 dice for combat and detection spells. +2 dice for conjuring
forest (if wilderness) or city (if urban)
Disadvantages: Mongoose does not flee from a fight she starts. Once she
attacks an opponent it takes a Willpower test (TN# 5) to break off. -2 dice
for illusion spells.

WOLVERINE
Role: Wolverine is a warrior's totem. He is a fearsome fighter. Wolverine
will attack first and forget about asking questions. His shamans are short-
tempered and violent loners. The main reason followers of Wolverine areallowed
to remain with a tribe, is because they will attack anything. Toxics,insects
or Fenrir shamans (or Fenrir wolves).
Enviroment: forest
Advantages: +3 dice for combat spells, +2 dice for conjuring forest spirits
Disadvantages: A wolverine shaman will beserk if he fights the same opponentor
group of opponents for a combat turn. The shaman must make a Willpowertest
(TN# 5) or go beserk. Otherwise follow the same rules as for bear for being
berserk. Wolverine shamans also get -2 dice for Illusion spells.

Yeah! I'm done. Now I am off to create the Dead Carp totem.
-Laughing Boy, aka feeds-on-thwaps.
_________________________________________________________________________
I"Elvis the Dark God Above, Below and sometimes Sideways" -Laughing boy I
I I
I"Elvis, long may he reign, his power is eternal"-Laughing boy I
I I
I"Pray for the coming of SMURF!" -Laughing boy I
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: SHADOWRN@***.SURFnet.nl
Date: Wednesday, April 27, 1994 10:41 pm
Subject: Re: Totems (SMTP Id#: 440)

Von Matt:

> Does anyone know of a totem that gives its bonus to Manipulation and
> Illusion spells, or know of a file where I can look? Sorry, but I don'thave
> my sourcebooks with me. Thanx.

Von Minotaur:

> "For all the money and the chance at ten thousand dollars...
> name the totem that provides a bonus to Manipulation and
> Illusion spells..."

There is only one Totem which I am certain fulfills the criteria: FOX!

What follows is my own version, using Berin Kinsman's version (as it
appeared in the February 1992 issue of White Wolf Magazine) as an
inspirational springboard.

==============================================================================

FOX

Unlike his cousin, Coyote the Trickster, Fox is the Great Deceiver,the
Manipulator. Typified by Reynard, whose guile and wit were the stuff of
folklore, Fox is the most clever and cunning of all animals. His methods are
Machiavellian to the core: Although his goals may be noble, he willwillingly
use deceit and treachery to attain his ends.

Although not cowardly, Fox prefers outwitting rather thanoverpowering
his enemies, and he particularly delights in the downfall of opponents more
powerful than he--but he is still smart enough not to foolishly risk his skin
just to draw attention to their folly.

Fox does have a (arguably undeserved) reputation as the Backstabber.
True, Fox is master of intrigue and underhandedness; nevertheless, he does
possess a certain sense of honor and loyalty--despite how slow (evenreluctant)
he is to give it.

Environment: Forest and Prairie

Advantages: +2 dice to all Manipulation and Illusion Spells
+2 dice to either Forest or Prairie Spirits (Shaman's choice)

Disadvantages: Fox's arrogance cuts both ways. When in the presence of an
individual who has "outfoxed the Fox" he shall suffer a +2
modifier to all Target Numbers (magical and non-magical) and
shall be driven to demonstrate his superiority over hisrival.

==============================================================================

Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc,PhD.

Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark ThoughtPublications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the
dark.<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@******.tamu.edu]
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
"Attack, attack, and when in doubt, ATTACK!" -- Frederick the Great ofPrussia

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
ZONCO: The experts in plastic surgery by post!
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: totems
Date:	Sat, 1 Apr 1995 19:35:42 +0200

Message no. 34 [mondo totems]

What ??? YOu missed my lemmings totem !?!?!?!? :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: totems
Date:	Sun, 2 Apr 1995 10:58:51 +0200

Message no. 35 > What ??? YOu missed my lemmings totem !?!?!?!? :)

Yes, I did... I can remember you (or at least someone) posted it, but I seem
to not have saved it. I did run into these next two while looking for it,
however...

-----

To: SHADOWRN@***.SURFnet.nl
Date: Friday, April 29, 1994 2:58 pm
Subject: Re: New Totems (SMTP Id#: 820)

Ok, guys, I finally found my copy of WW with the totems. It is WW#30, Feb.
1992. The answer to the question about Manipulation/ Illusion spells is:

(drumroll please.....)

OTTER and SWAN!

Here they are:
Otter
Advantages:
+2 dice manipulation and illusion spells
+2 dice for conjuring Spirits of the Water

She is playful and fears nothing, because she takes nothing seriously.
She is not a trickster, but fond of practical jokes(harmless ones).
She does not engage in anything not directly related to her own survival
unless it promises to be good for a few laughs.

Environment: On or near Water.

Disadvantages: Otter is easily bored. If the thrills and excitemant slow
down too much,the shaman must make a willpower success test(TN=4). Failure
means the shaman becomes distracted and suffers a +1 modifier to all TN's,
magical and non-magical, pertaining to her original objective. It takes a
test with TN=6 to get her back on track.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Swan
Advantages:
+2 dice for manipulation and illusion spells.
+2 dice for River or Lake Spirits

She is graceful and charismatic. She can also be egocentric and fickle.
She enjoys being the center of attention, and does her best to obtain
that position and hold it.

Environment: In and around FRESH water.

Disadvantages:Swan shamans demand a high lifestyle of better. They are
often performers, divas, or primaballerinas living in sheltered worlds.
Swan likes things neat and orderly, subtract 1 die from COMBAT spells,
since such things are unsettling and messy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Those are paraphrased from the WW issue. All errors in copying and spelling
are my own. Runners, this is a must have issue--there are some really good
totems here.

Bryan Prince :)

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's not just for life, it's for christmas!
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)

From:	Steve Collins <steve_collins@********.ALEWIFE.KODAK.COM>
Subject:	Totems
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:48:40 U

Message no. 36 I have a Player in my game that is playing a Geko shaman. He is a pretty =
bad munchkin and chose that Totem because of the bonuses. My only problem =
with this is I know nothing about the Geko Totem except what is printed in =
the Awakenings ( just the stats ). The Totem originally appears in the =
Paradise Lost Scenario. If anyone out there has this Scenario and can give =
me more info on the Geko Totem I would greatly appreciate it.

While I'm on the subject has anyone got any totems that they created that =
work well the only additional one I have done is Badger.

From:	"Falin \"Dark-Claw\"" <jhyatt@****.WINCOM.NET>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:00:23 -0500

Message no. 37 From: Steve Collins <steve_collins@********.ALEWIFE.KODAK.COM>

The Totem originally appears in the Paradise Lost Scenario. If anyone out
there has this Scenario and can give me more info on the Geko Totem I
would greatly appreciate it.

While I'm on the subject has anyone got any totems that they created that
work well the only additional one I have done is Badger.

I can get the totem information for the geko and will post as soon as i do
if no buddy else has.

Please send me the info on the badger totem to add to my list.

>>>>>[ The only thing that all fear is knowledge ]<<<<<
-Falin "Dark-Claw" <00:00:00/01-21-57>

From:	Steve Collins <steve_collins@********.ALEWIFE.KODAK.COM>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:24:37 U

Message no. 38 Mail*Link® SMTP RE>>Totems

>I can get the totem information for the geko and will post as soon as i =
do
>if no buddy else has.
>
>Please send me the info on the badger totem to add to my list.

I will post the Badger info tomorrow sometime or maybe Monday(I have to go =
home and root around for it) but it went something like this for stats

Favored Enviroment Forests
Advantages +2 dice for Manipulation Spells, +2 Dice for Conjuring =
Forest Spirits
Disadvantages The single minded determination of Dog (Wil test of 4 to =
change mind or course of action) and -1 die for Illusion Spells

I also had stats for Wolverene but I never really liked them because they =
were too powerful they went something like this

Favored Enviroment Forests
Advantages +2 Dice for Combat and Manipulation Spells, +2 Dice for =
Conjuring Forest Spirits
Disadvantages See Badger above plus goes Beserk as Shark

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 1997 21:37:30 +0000

Message no. 39 |
|I have a Player in my game that is playing a Geko shaman. He is a pretty =
|bad munchkin and chose that Totem because of the bonuses. My only problem =
|with this is I know nothing about the Geko Totem except what is printed in =
|the Awakenings ( just the stats ). The Totem originally appears in the =
|Paradise Lost Scenario. If anyone out there has this Scenario and can give =
|me more info on the Geko Totem I would greatly appreciate it.

As a general rule, I use the following....

"If I don't own the book, it doesn't exist..... Unless I make it up....."

Simple, and it avoids all confusion....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 1997 23:55:31 -0000

Message no. 40 > I also had stats for Wolverene but I never really liked them
> because they were too powerful.

A player and I came up with Wolverine stats a while back too. It was mainly
an NPC tool. Stats follow:

WOLVERINE

Characteristics:
Wolverine is a vicious, hateful, destructive, powerful warrior who kills
for the sheer love of ending another creature's life. Bear and Wolf
respect this totem's ferocity. Wolverine can usually only be found in
colder regions (which is fortunate for others); among the Eskimo Agnekok,
as well as the NAN tribes of the Paficic Northwest.

Advantages:
+2 dice for Combat and Damaging Manipulation spells
+2 dice for conjuring Mountain spirits

Disadvantages:
Wolverine shamans suffer +2 to their target number to resist Illusion
spells. A Wolverine Shaman will also go beserk in combat once he sees
blood or when he kills an opponent. When either happens, the shaman must
make a Willpoer test at a target number of six. He goes beserk for three
combat turns, minus one turn for each success. THree or more success and
he keeps his cool. A beserk Wolverine shaman suffers no penalites from his
wounds or fatigue. The player, however is NOT aware of damage taken during
the beserk (the GM should secretly keep record of this). A beserk
Wolverine shaman will attack the nearest living thing, fighting to kill
with his most damaging weapon or spell.

Wolverine firmly believes that the stronger are to rule the weak, and will
not hesitate to destroy any who dare challenge his authority. Wolverine
shamans will very rarely use non-lethal means in combat, they fully believe
in kicking ass and taking names later.

From:	Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 1997 00:05:29 -0000

Message no. 41 I have a Player in my game that is playing a Geko shaman. He is a pretty
bad munchkin and chose that Totem because of the bonuses. My only problem
with this is I know nothing about the Geko Totem except what is printed in
the Awakenings ( just the stats ). The Totem originally appears in the
Paradise Lost Scenario. If anyone out there has this Scenario and can give
me more info on the Geko Totem I would greatly appreciate it.

*********************

MO'O (Gecko)

Characteristics:
Because he is fast moving, Gecko is virtually impossible to pin down. He
is a prankster, but not a thief. Extremely adaptable and difficult to
kill., Gecko almost always manages to get into places that others wish to
bar him from. Unfortunately, he often assumes that his colleagues can avoid
trouble as easily as he does.

Favored environment:
Gecko is comfortable in any environment.

Advantages:
+2 dice for manipulation or illusion spells.
+1 die for resisting the effects of poison

Disadvantages:
Most Gecko Shamans have short attention spans and find it difficult to keep
their minds on a single task. They revel in getting into trouble for the
sheer joy of getting out of it. (Unfortunately, they tend to bring their
friends along.) A Gecko Shaman suffers a -1 die modifier for combat spells.

@>--'--,--- Loki

/>
/<
[\\\\\\(O):::<======================================-
\< Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki
\>

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

From:	Peter Leitch <pleitch_hpcs@*******.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:02:14 +1100

Message no. 42 At 15:48 2/01/97 U, you wrote:
>I have a Player in my game that is playing a Geko shaman. He is a pretty =
=
>bad munchkin and chose that Totem because of the bonuses. My only problem =
=
>with this is I know nothing about the Geko Totem except what is printed in=
=
>the Awakenings ( just the stats ). The Totem originally appears in the =
>Paradise Lost Scenario. If anyone out there has this Scenario and can give=
=
>me more info on the Geko Totem I would greatly appreciate it.

Here it is. Have fun!

<quote>
MO'O (GECKO)
Characteristics: Because he is fast moving, Gecko is virtually
impossible to pin down. He is a prankster, but not a thief. Extremely
adaptable and difficult to kill, Gecko almost always manages to get into
places that others wish to bar him from. Unfortunately, he often assumes
that his colleagues can avoid trouble as easily as he does.
Favored Environment: Gecko is comfortable in any environment.
Advantages: +2 dice for manipulation or illusion spells, +1 die for
resisting the effects of poison.
Disadvantages: Most Gecko shamans have short attention spans and find it
difficult to keep their minds on a single task. They revel in getting into
trouble for the sheer joy of getting out of it. (Unfortunately, they tend
to bring their friends along.) A Gecko shaman suffers a -1 die modifier
for combat spells.
</quote>

IMC we have a system for random encounters, and the one follower of Gecko
we have DOUBLES the chances of something happening. And then the player
plays it to the hilt, firing insults at gangers and corp. security with
equal abandon.

Peter Leitch
-- For mojo fun, play Shadowrun...
-- For a detailed fantasy world, give Hârn a twirl.
<pleitch_hpcs@*******.com.au>

From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Totems = ?
Date:	Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:11:17 GMT

Message no. 43 > Mark Steedman wrote:
> |
> | I think dragos being 'shamanic' is more they improvise like a shaman,
> | they don't use complex mathematical formulea like mages etc. They are
> | different but yes closer to a Shaman, a lot closer, than to a mage,
> | given the quote is equivalence to what SR actually describes its not
> | bad.
>
> What if... Totems are really Great Dragons? At first it
> sounds kinda silly, but if Dragons are really the first
> Name Givers, then where did the Totems come from? Or could
> Totems be the name changers created by Verj(?)?
>
i don't think so but...

> -David-who's-suddenly-got-a-lot-of-questions
> --
> /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
> "His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
> alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
> ~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
>

Mark

From:	Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
Subject:	Totems...
Date:	Thu, 20 Feb 1997 15:51:05 -0600

Message no. 44 I was just woundering how everyone else treates Totems... In my games i
make them Very powerful free spirits and have them showup ofen to eighter
help or chide the player... often it is in very mysterious ways. I treat
them as a kinda Deus Ex Machiena (misspelled) and much like th Greek and
Roman gods, who, as often as they helped, also hindered if it was part of
thier plans.

Czar-who-just-got-outa-Mytho-Eggbert

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Czar-"No-I-Didn't-Steal-This-LINE!"-Eggbert
Ruler, Dark Side of the Moon.
homepage: http:\\www.creighton.edu\~czregbrt
mailto:czregbrt@*********.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And now for something completely diffrent:
"Not now honey... I'm cleaning my ears."
-Helen Stunkard
kittypurr@*******.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Totems...
Date:	Thu, 20 Feb 1997 20:14:15 -0500

Message no. 45 >I was just woundering how everyone else treates Totems... In my games i
>make them Very powerful free spirits and have them showup ofen to eighter
>help or chide the player... often it is in very mysterious ways. I treat
>them as a kinda Deus Ex Machiena (misspelled) and much like th Greek and
>Roman gods, who, as often as they helped, also hindered if it was part of
>thier plans.

In my game (and I admit I often neglect them more than I would like) they
never affect the physical world, though they do on rare occasions affect the
characters. THey tend to offer annonyingly vague messages, and in general
never give enough info to settle whether they are "real" or part of the
characters imaginiations.

-=SwiftOne=-

From:	Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:17:59 -0500

Message no. 46 <snip having totems act like high level free spirits>

While that's ok, in my universe there is a "fact" of nature: no totem ever
reveals to
anyone other than one of his shaman that he is anything other than a figment of
that shaman's imagination. Hermetics are therefore convinced that totems do not
exist and are "primitive" and a bad idea. Shaman then turn around and show the
hermetics tricks "their totem tought them" and the hermetics scratch their heads
and hypothesize that these guys are subconscious geniuses.

Then there is the fact that people w/ totems tend to have a lot of strange
coincidences happen to them, coincidences that could be explained by totem
manipulation, except of course that totems don't exist :)

I like this approach better than yours (for my game, your millage may vary)
because it fits better with the idea that there is magic in the world today, its just
too dormant for science to detect, and that after the awakening there is
"scientific"
hermeticism and then there are those corners of magic that are resistant to
explanation...

Double-Domed Mike

From:	Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject:	Totems
Date:	Mon, 19 May 1997 14:36:52 -0400

Message no. 47 I'm just curious... I've got a lot of shamans in my campaigns and was
wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there. At the moment
I've got two PCs who play a coyote and cat shaman really well and are
quite interesting.

Dust

From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Mon, 19 May 1997 11:40:26 -0700

Message no. 48 | I'm just curious... I've got a lot of shamans in my campaigns and
was
| wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there. At the moment
| I've got two PCs who play a coyote and cat shaman really well and are
| quite interesting.

Well I would have to say that my favorite is still the Dog totem, despite
my deep seated hatred for Sam Verner.
What can I say it was my first character and I loved the guy. :)

-Caric

Word to the wise... Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy, and would
be good with brie!!!

-Karl Teranssen av Drakkar

From:	Duncan McNeill-Burton <Dreadnaut1@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Mon, 19 May 1997 14:56:00 -0400

Message no. 49 In a message dated 97-05-19 14:47:54 EDT, you write:

<<
I'm just curious... I've got a lot of shamans in my campaigns and
was
wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there. At the moment
I've got two PCs who play a coyote and cat shaman really well and are
quite interesting.

Dust >>

Personally, I love shark. Just the image of a shaman tossing hellblasts at a
dead opponent until he passes out from drain seems quite cool.

Later-

Duncan

From:	Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.CARLETON.CA>
Subject:	Re: Totems
Date:	Mon, 19 May 1997 15:56:05 EDT

Message no. 50 Dust writes:
>
> I'm just curious... I've got a lot of shamans in my campaigns and was
> wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there. At the moment
> I've got two PCs who play a coyote and cat shaman really well and are
> quite interesting.

Sssssssnake, definately sssssssnake. I love playing the snake, I can
really creep people out... =).

Pete

Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/8920/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 51 Dust writes:

> > wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there.

I am partial to Eagle, followed closely by cat. Anyone ever played a
Bear shaman? I always wondered how that would work.

--
Drekhead

Message no. 52 At 02:36 PM 5/19/97 -0400, Dust whispered:
> I'm just curious... I've got a lot of shamans in my campaigns and was
>wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there.

After reading Awakenings, I'd wanted to play a Gargoyle shaman. Although
I've no idea why a Gargoyle shaman would run in the shadows...

-Thomas Deeny
Your Guide to Shadowrun - http://shadowrun.miningco.com
Thomas's World is http://telltale.hart.org - come visit!

"... what character deserves to be left alone more at the end of the world
than that idiot Ash?"
-Bruce Campbell on the dropped ending for _Army of Darkness_

Message no. 53 <Which totem do people like?>
>Sssssssnake, definately sssssssnake. I love
>playing the snake, I can really creep people
>out... =).

Hmm, I like Snake too, but my shaman was
snakelike in his outlook, not his habits. He was
so tight with keeping his abilities secret that I
think at least half the group assumed he was
hermetic...

Double-Domed Mike

Message no. 54 On Mon, 19 May 1997 14:36:52 -0400 Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
writes:
<< I'm just curious... I've got a lot of shamans in my campaigns
and was wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there. At the
moment I've got two PCs who play a coyote and cat shaman really well and
are quite interesting.>>

I've always been a mage-boy myself, but Wolf is probably my favorite
totem. I like the loyalty and agressiveness of the totem:)

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

Message no. 55 >Well I would have to say that my favorite is still the Dog totem, despite
>my deep seated hatred for Sam Verner.
>What can I say it was my first character and I loved the guy. :)

Not a flame, but waht exactly was your beef? I didn't empathize with the
guy, but I don't hate him....

I'd love to hear your opinions on him....he (or rather, the trilogy) helped
make Shadowrun my life.

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 56 > I'm just curious... I've got a lot of shamans in my campaigns and was
>wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there. At the moment
>I've got two PCs who play a coyote and cat shaman really well and are
>quite interesting.

Gargoyle or Cat.

I have players using Cat, Bear, and Dog. Oddly, the Cat and Dog people
(played by boyfriend-girlfriend) are pretty chummy.

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 57 >was wondering what everyone's favorite totem >was.
Dunkelzahn.

Brother-1. Decker for hire.
"Black IC!! You eeediot!! You bloated code!!
You sick little program!! I will DELETE YOU!!!!"

Message no. 58 At 5:52 PM 5/19/97, Brett Borger wrote:

>
>I have players using Cat, Bear, and Dog. Oddly, the Cat and Dog people
>(played by boyfriend-girlfriend) are pretty chummy.
>
>-=SwiftOne=-

Yeah, my Cat shaman's buddy/teacher is a Dog shaman. Makes for some great
roleplay moments.

D.

Message no. 59 | >Well I would have to say that my favorite is still the Dog totem,
despite
| >my deep seated hatred for Sam Verner.
| >What can I say it was my first character and I loved the guy. :)
|
| Not a flame, but waht exactly was your beef? I didn't empathize with the
| guy, but I don't hate him....

Well hate may be too strong a word, but he annoys me to no end. I love
Ghost, Dodger, Sally, and Kham, but Sam just grates on my nerves. I think
it is because he whines through the whole trilogy. Obviously this is just
my opinion, but the guys a weenie.

| I'd love to hear your opinions on him....he (or rather, the trilogy)
helped
| make Shadowrun my life.

Agreed...the novels add color that makes the game world come alive in my
imagination more than I would have thought possible.

-Caric

Word to the wise... Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy, and would
be good with brie!!!

-Karl Teranssen av Drakkar

Message no. 60 In message <Pine.SGI.3.95.970519143456.25609C-
100000@*******.bergen.org>, Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG> writes
> I'm just curious... I've got a lot of shamans in my campaigns and was
>wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there. At the moment
>I've got two PCs who play a coyote and cat shaman really well and are
>quite interesting.

Two of the easiest to play are Coyote and Wolf: my first two shamans
were those. So they're my favourites :)

Seriously, it's a very personal thing. I like Wolf totem a lot, a friend
all but refused to play anything that wasn't a Raccoon shaman, we had a
very well-played Shark shaman and Eagle shamanic adept... it all depends
on the player.

>
>Dust

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Message no. 61 > I'm just curious... I've got a lot of shamans in my campaigns and
was
> wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there. At the moment
> I've got two PCs who play a coyote and cat shaman really well and are
> quite interesting.

Fox! Fox! Fox! (also known as:

- Jackal, Dvixen, Kitsune and Zorro (in different languages)

I know that this is a house rule but it is my favorite! :)

I also really like Eagle and Coyote...

Harlequin - The master of chaos
harlequin@*********.ca

Message no. 62 ----------
> > I'm just curious... I've got a lot of shamans in my campaigns
and was
> >wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there. At the moment
> >I've got two PCs who play a coyote and cat shaman really well and are
> >quite interesting.
>
> I must say that my favorites are Owl, Coyote, and Racoon. Simply
because the players in my past campaigns have played these so well that I
have a hard time seeing any one else in that roll. Think about it a Coyote
shaman with a fetish for Moe, Larry and Curly.. NYUK, NYUK,NYUK.

Java

Message no. 63 ----------
> Dust writes:
>
> > > wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there.
>
> I am partial to Eagle, followed closely by cat. Anyone ever played a
> Bear shaman? I always wondered how that would work.
>
> --
> Drekhead

I have played a couple, and had a great time doing it. A Bear shaman with
a shapechange spell is a very nasti thing indeed. However, the only time I
have had someone else play a bear was at a convention (Pregens and all) he
stomped out of the game because he did not like the way things were going.:{

Java

Message no. 64 > I'm just curious... I've got a lot of shamans in my campaigns and
was
> wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there. At the moment
> I've got two PCs who play a coyote and cat shaman really well and are
> quite interesting.

I Loooovvee playing Mako, my shark shaman, but Whale is fun too.
Coyote is still my all time favorite though.
He's so un-munchkin.
No bonuses, no penalties, no restrictions ... just sheer unadulterated
magical madness!
Fun!

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"Please don't eat me! I'll give you anything you want! I'll even give you
corn!" - Little Dog

Message no. 65 One thing I have had a lot of success with in our game is not letting the
player pick his totem.
I give them slow access to their magic, and then allow the totems to pick
them.

Johnny 99 started out as a chosen shaman of Cat.
He was neat, clean, and played with his prey .. I figgered Cat all the way,
but as the game progressed, I realized that he also loved using magic for
tricks, shapechanging he and his wife into animals at ... bedtime.
Using Chaotic World on his Orc Decker buddy Bull.

Then I realized that he'd be better off as a follower of Coyote.

This all took maybe the first 6 game sessions, and the fun we had making an
explanation of why Coyote was imitating Cat at first really added a lot to
the character.
Johnny now has a better understanding of trickery, and a better
"relationship" with Coyote.
He also has more empathy for other shamans following other totems.

Perhaps the best result was that it gave a new player a chance to learn the
SR world before being forced into a totem he might not have enjoyed.

As always, YMMV.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"Please don't eat me! I'll give you anything you want! I'll even give you
corn!" - Little Dog

Message no. 66 On Mon, 19 May 1997 21:38:13 -0400 Scott Spencer <java@**********.COM>
writes:
>----------
>> Dust writes:
>>
>> > > wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there.
>>

I play a Crow shaman (when not playing a mage).... mostly a version of
Raven, but more urbanized. (He also has a thing for a specific, and very
useful variant of the shape-change spell).

~Tim

Message no. 67 On Mon, 19 May 1997 14:36:52 -0400 Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
writes:
> I'm just curious... I've got a lot of shamans in my campaigns
>and was
>wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there. At the
>moment
>I've got two PCs who play a coyote and cat shaman really well and are
>quite interesting.

I love playing a rat shaman. I'm just into that dirty, smelly, street
person type, non-confrontational but sneaky in his own way.
After that, I'd have to say Oak.

-Q

>
>Dust
>

Message no. 68 At 02:36 PM 5/19/97 -0400, you wrote:
> I'm just curious... I've got a lot of shamans in my campaigns and was
>wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there. At the moment
>I've got two PCs who play a coyote and cat shaman really well and are
>quite interesting.
>
>Dust
>

I've got a tie between some totmes. I'd have to go with Dog for simple team
intigration. Wolf for it's views. Frog from WW#28(?) because of it's views
on healing and dolphin from the same mag for the same reasons.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Ah at last! The TRANSFORMATION is complete!
For YEARS they mocked me! They took the name EMMANUEL LEWIS in vain!
But tonight RETRIBUTION will be mine!
For I am REBORN as --WEBSTER--, The adorable scamp of DOOM!
Ma'am's and Georges beware Webster walks the earth and he's got a
HANKERIN' for some SPANKERIN'!

Man did I nail this mad doctor routine or WHAT?
"Deadpool #4"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Message no. 69 On Monday, May 19, 1997 at 2:36 PM Dust wrote:

> I'm just curious... I've got a lot of shamans in my campaigns and
was
> wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there. At the moment
> I've got two PCs who play a coyote and cat shaman really well and are
> quite interesting.

Ant. Definately Ant. :) Actually, once a GM understands the flexibility
of the Insect Totems as a whole, he/she will be able to see the numerous
possibilities with allowing a PC to play an Insect Shaman. Thus, I am
currently playing an Ant Shaman. Pretty harmless guy...at least in his
mind, anyway. And who knows, maybe his reality is correct one....

;)

> Dust

Justin :)

Message no. 70 Dust said on 14:36/19 May 97...

> I'm just curious... I've got a lot of shamans in my campaigns and was
> wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there. At the moment
> I've got two PCs who play a coyote and cat shaman really well and are
> quite interesting.

On one of the rare occasions I got to play rather than GM Shadowrun, I
played a snake shaman whose curiosity managed to get himself killed
(chopped in half by an ant spirit). He was a fun character to play, even
though he didn't live through the first adventure :)

Although I guess that next time I make a shaman, I'd go for a different
totem just to try out another one. Probably some kind of awakened totem,
or possibly spider.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's social suicide.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 71 Dust writes

> I'm just curious... I've got a lot of shamans in my campaigns and was
> wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there. At the moment
> I've got two PCs who play a coyote and cat shaman really well and are
> quite interesting.
>
I haven't really had much chance to play shamen. I have played mages
mostly. I rather like Eagle myself, but i favour very pure magicians
and like the high moral stance as well.

I have seen Shark, Wolf (i have a player on his second Wolf Shaman
(different campains), and firebringer (awakenings). All rather
aggressive totems played a fair amount. Also a cat shaman though i
didn't note a lot of personality, and he was rather easy to influence
(like when my mage formed a magical group with him i was easilly the
boss regardless of the strictures)

Did have a raccoon in my game for a bit, that was fun.

Mark

Message no. 72 >Probably some sort of Awakened Totem, or >possible Spider.
I know you can construct your own totems, but are there any rules for
Spider out there?

Brother-1. Decker for hire.
"Black IC!! You eeediot!! You bloated code!!
You sick little program!! I will DELETE YOU!!!!"

Message no. 73 > wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there.

I played a Crow shaman (from one of the on-line supplements. Can't remeber
which one.) He was very cool. The only other thing I can see myself
playing is a Raven shaman. Don't know what it is with me and birds. :)

-=Court

/* Court Schuett, a totally modern boy.

schuett@*****.ivcc.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

raining today, no place to park, car's out of gas
(christmas time again)
tv's broke, your phone's off the hook, the faucet drips
drip, drip, drip, the fog'll never lift
where is the sun? there used be a sun
-Too Much Joy

*****************************************************************************/

Message no. 74 >Well hate may be too strong a word, but he annoys me to no end. I love
>Ghost, Dodger, Sally, and Kham, but Sam just grates on my nerves. I think
>it is because he whines through the whole trilogy. Obviously this is just
>my opinion, but the guys a weenie.

I can accept that. I never liked Interview with the Vampire for the same
reason....the guy just spends two hundred years complaining about how it
sucks to be a vampire.

To stay on topic, I'd like to mention that the latest novel, Shadowboxer,
didn't rank very high in my opinion (no spoilers here). Too much "oh, new
toy", too much "nothing makes sense" until the last 5 pages (and then it's
pretty weak).

Is 2XS out of print? My copy is falling apart and I'd love to get another...

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 75 On Mon, 19 May 1997, Dust wrote:

> Dust writes:
>
> > > wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there.
>
> I am partial to Eagle, followed closely by cat. Anyone ever played a
> Bear shaman? I always wondered how that would work.
>
> --
> Drekhead
>

I've had an NPC bear shaman. It wasn't bad. He ran a street
clinic and charged major nuyen for magical healing but gave discounts
to friends. He went on a run with some of the PCs though and went
berserk and that wasn't too fun.

Dust

#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
# DREKHEAD - drekhead@***.net, drekhead@***.com - Tim Kerby #
#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
# --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html --- #
#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot
stomping on a human face...forever. -George Orwell

Message no. 76 At 02:19 AM 5/20/97 -1000, you wrote:
>>Probably some sort of Awakened Totem, or >possible Spider.
>I know you can construct your own totems, but are there any rules for
>Spider out there?

Check out bug city for that or Wig's archive for another view.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Ah at last! The TRANSFORMATION is complete!
For YEARS they mocked me! They took the name EMMANUEL LEWIS in vain!
But tonight RETRIBUTION will be mine!
For I am REBORN as --WEBSTER--, The adorable scamp of DOOM!
Ma'am's and Georges beware Webster walks the earth and he's got a
HANKERIN' for some SPANKERIN'!

Man did I nail this mad doctor routine or WHAT?
"Deadpool #4"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Message no. 77 Dust wrote:
>
> I'm just curious... I've got a lot of shamans in my campaigns and was
wondering what everyone's favorite totems were out there. At the moment I've got two PCs
who play a coyote and cat shaman really well and are quite interesting.
>
> Dust

What's this, ten gazillion responses and no Yeast shamen out there?
(I'm trying to con a new GM into allowing a E. Coli Totem...)
On a more serious note, I tend to tie between Rats and Oak physical
shamen.

-Matt

Message no. 78 ---tom Cone wrote:
>
> >Probably some sort of Awakened Totem, or >possible Spider.
> I know you can construct your own totems, but are there any rules
for
> Spider out there?

It's in the game notes section at the back of Bug City.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

Message no. 79 tom Cone writes

> >Probably some sort of Awakened Totem, or >possible Spider.
> I know you can construct your own totems, but are there any rules for
> Spider out there?
>
Yes in 'Bug City' p144 or so i think.
Note spiders are Aracnids on insects but playing this totem is still
asking for getting you all wrapped up.

Mark

Message no. 80 tom Cone said on 2:19/20 May 97...

> >Probably some sort of Awakened Totem, or >possible Spider.
> I know you can construct your own totems

Loads of people were doing that before Awakenings came out -- totem
creation is just knowing a bit about the animal, and then using common
sense, IMHO.

> but are there any rules for Spider out there?

It's in Bug City, on page 144. (And now the mandatory disclaimer: "a
spider is not an insect but an arachnid. The main difference is that
insects have six legs, while arachnids have eight. As such, Spider is a
legal totem for player characters in Shadowrun.")

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's social suicide.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 81 >arachnids...legal totems for players.
You suggest that scorpion shamans are valid posibilities? Hmmmm...

Brother-1. Decker for hire.
"Black IC!! You eeediot!! You bloated code!!
You sick little program!! I will DELETE YOU!!!!"

Message no. 82 >>arachnids...legal totems for players.
>You suggest that scorpion shamans are valid posibilities? Hmmmm...

Nova Scorpion Totem, in the Cal Free State Book.

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 83 > > >Probably some sort of Awakened Totem, or >possible Spider.
> > I know you can construct your own totems, but are there any rules for
> > Spider out there?
> >
> Yes in 'Bug City' p144 or so i think.
> Note spiders are Aracnids on insects but playing this totem is still
> asking for getting you all wrapped up.

NO! It's in Awakenings, p. 107

-Flo

Message no. 84 >>>Rules for Spider?
>>In "Bug City" p. 144
>NO! It's in Awakenings, p. 107
Very clever, flo, but the question was for specific stats, not the make
your own totem
system.

Brother-1. Decker for hire.
"Black IC!! You eeediot!! You bloated code!!
You sick little program!! I will DELETE YOU!!!!"

Message no. 85 On Wed, 21 May 1997 22:01:38 +0200 Flo
<florian.goll@******.UNI-WEIMAR.DE> writes:
>> > >Probably some sort of Awakened Totem, or >possible Spider.
>> > I know you can construct your own totems, but are there any rules
for
>> > Spider out there?
>> >
>> Yes in 'Bug City' p144 or so i think.
>> Note spiders are Aracnids on insects but playing this totem is still
>> asking for getting you all wrapped up.
>
>NO! It's in Awakenings, p. 107

NO!! it first appeared in Bug City and was included in the "Totem
Summary" in Awakenings...

~Tim

Message no. 86 ---tom Cone wrote:
>
> >arachnids...legal totems for players.
> You suggest that scorpion shamans are valid posibilities? Hmmmm...

Scorpion shamans are already covered in the CalFree sourcebook.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

Message no. 87 tom Cone said on 4:08/21 May 97...

> >arachnids...legal totems for players.
> You suggest that scorpion shamans are valid posibilities? Hmmmm...

That is what it comes down to, yeah. I watched a documentary on scorpions
last weekend (I had nothing better to do when everybody else was having a
life) and I thought they'd be cool as an SR totem, but I've never seen
one.

For game effects. one thing the shaman should have is reduced
effectiveness in direct subnlight, like +2 TN to all tests. Maybe even
require them to have an allergy to sunlight as well. Also +2 dice for
Combat spells, but for the other modifiers I don't have (m)any ideas just
now.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's social suicide.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 88 I can't find the California Free State source book and I'd like to know
what the Nova Scorpion totem is.

Dust

P.S. Anybody know how spirits of the great fiery fierement work for
Phoenix shamans?

Message no. 89 Am 22-Mai-97 schrieb Dust:

>Dust

>P.S. Anybody know how spirits of the great fiery fierement work for
>Phoenix shamans?

Yep, as I`m playing one

summoning latent fire spirit can only summoned inside/beside of hot/burning
objects
they can`t leave the object no
more than force in meter
manifest can only be summoned in great fires
these fire counts as a domain
for the spirit
"normal" spirit just per standart rules

these spirits work like your regular run of the mill nature spirit in our game
for spririts per domain and so.

Barbie

Message no. 90 On Thu, 22 May 1997, andre eibel wrote:

> Yep, as I`m playing one
>
> summoning latent fire spirit can only summoned inside/beside of hot/burning
> objects they can`t leave the object no more than force in meter
> manifest can only be summoned in great fires these fire counts as a
> domain for the spirit. "normal" spirit just per standart rules these
> spirits work like your regular run of the mill nature spirit in our game
> for spririts per domain and so.
>
> Barbie
>

What are their stats?

Dust

Message no. 91 On Thu, 22 May 1997 09:00:47 -0400 Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
writes:
> I can't find the California Free State source book and I'd
>like to know
>what the Nova Scorpion totem is.

There's a description on them in the back of Awakenings. As for CalFree,
you might try buying it mail-order, or seeing if the gaming store you
frequent would be willing to hold a copy for you next time they order it,
or if they'd special-order a copy for you.

>P.S. Anybody know how spirits of the great fiery fierement work for
>Phoenix shamans?

It's detailed in Tir Na nOg, a good idea to pick up if you're also
interested in the totems and stuff on the Paths that were detailed in
there.

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

Message no. 92 Am 22-Mai-97 schrieb Dust:

>What are their stats?

>Dust

Here it comes from my magic library

Latent fire spirit

B=F+2
Q=(F+2)x5
S=F-2
C/I/W=F
E=(F)A
R=F

Powers

Accident, Engulf, Flame Aura, Flame Projection, Guard, Movement, Psyhokinese

Domain

Within/beside hot objects and/or places
(Anything hotter than blood)

Manifest fire spirit

B=F+4
Q=(F+3)x5
S=F+4
C/I/W=F
E=(f)A
R=F+2

Powers

Accident, Engulf, Enhanced Movement, Flame Aura, Flame Projection, Guard,
Movement, Noxios Breath, Psychokinese

Domain

Volcanoes, raging fires, firestorms, forest fires, and so on

nasty fraggers arent they?

--
Barbie

==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 93 > For game effects. one thing the shaman should have is reduced
> effectiveness in direct subnlight, like +2 TN to all tests. Maybe even
^^^^^^^^^
> require them to have an allergy to sunlight as well. Also +2 dice for
> Combat spells, but for the other modifiers I don't have (m)any ideas just
> now.

You mean the shaman has to be moving at relativistic speeds to be able to
cast magic? ;-)
Sorry, but the idea just struck me as ridiculous!
A shaman that can do magic, but only at lightspeed!
That'd be the perfect excuse when the sammy wants you to heal his no
essence body!
ROFL!!!

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"Please don't eat me! I'll give you anything you want! I'll even give you
corn!" - Little Dog

Message no. 94 ---Gurth wrote:
>
> tom Cone said on 4:08/21 May 97...
>
> > >arachnids...legal totems for players.
> > You suggest that scorpion shamans are valid posibilities? Hmmmm...
>
> That is what it comes down to, yeah. I watched a documentary on
scorpions
> last weekend (I had nothing better to do when everybody else was
having a
> life) and I thought they'd be cool as an SR totem, but I've never
seen
> one.
>
> For game effects. one thing the shaman should have is reduced
> effectiveness in direct subnlight, like +2 TN to all tests. Maybe
even
> require them to have an allergy to sunlight as well. Also +2 dice for
> Combat spells, but for the other modifiers I don't have (m)any ideas
just
> now.

I tried to tell you guys before, FASA's already taken care of it for
you. :o)

California Free State sourcebook, page 143:

Scorpion Shaman (Anasazi Totem)
Scorpion is the dancer of death. He fears nothing, because he can
kill anyone and anything. His poison is his strength and his strength
brings death. The Scorpions shaman has absolute power to do what he
wants, and knows it.
Scorpion shamans are solitary by nature. They even prefer to
fight alone rather than call on spirits for help or guidance. Though
they align themselves with Anasazi bands, Scorpion shamans live
outside even these small groups as much as they can.
Scorpion shamans do not like other Scorpion shamans. If two
Scorpion shamans meet each other, they will challenge each other to a
Dance of Death - single, hand-to-hand combat with melee weapons , no
spells or guns - to determine which shaman is stronger. In many cases,
the shamans coat their blades with nova scorpion venom. Despite it's
name, the Dance of Death ends when one shaman is clearly defeated,
literal death is not necessary. Scorpion shamans also perform the
Dance of Death with a member of the opposite sex as a prelude to
mating. Scorpion shamans rarely stay with their mates, and soon resume
their solitary lives.

Favored Environment: Deserts, especially the Mojave

Advantages: +2 to combat spells and illusion spells. Scorpion shamans
can milk a nova scorpion for its venom. Nova scorpion venom does only
5L damage to a Scorpion shaman.

Disadvantages: +2 to all target numbers during the day, -1 die to all
Conjurng Tests. The Scorpion shaman will become severely depressed
when away from the hot, dry environment of the desert. Increase all
target numbers by 1 for every day the shaman spends out of that
environment. Desertlike conditions can be recreated in other parts of
the world for the shaman; in such cases, increase all target numbers
by 1 for every 12 hours he spends away from this protected environment.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 95 ---Dust wrote:
>
> I can't find the California Free State source book and I'd
like to know
> what the Nova Scorpion totem is.

I posted it in another message just a few minutes ago. It's not Nova
Scorpion, it's just plain Scorpion. It's a totem of the Anasazi tribes
(think gypsies meet Mad Max nomads).

I suppose one could make a Nova Scorpion critter totem per the
Awakenings suggestions.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

Message no. 96 Dust wrote:

>P.S. Anybody know how spirits of the great fiery fierement work for
>Phoenix shamans?
>

Check out ... let's see is it Tir Taingire or Tir-Na'nog? Hell, one of
the Tir books. The one that mentions all those magical "Paths" and
such...

~Tim (basically imagine a fire elemental for shamans...)

Message no. 97 Am 22-Mai-97 schrieb Tim P Cooper:

>Dust wrote:

>>P.S. Anybody know how spirits of the great fiery fierement work for
>>Phoenix shamans?
>>

>Check out ... let's see is it Tir Taingire or Tir-Na'nog? Hell, one of
>the Tir books. The one that mentions all those magical "Paths" and
>such...

>~Tim (basically imagine a fire elemental for shamans...)

It`s TirnaNog page143
--
Barbie

==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 98 [snip q about fave totems]

> Fox! Fox! Fox! (also known as:
>
> - Jackal, Dvixen, Kitsune and Zorro (in different languages)

Excuse me? A vixen is a female Fox, but as far as I know, there is no
such word as 'Dvixen', in *any* language.

Dvixen is unique. It would do you all well to remember that.

--

Dvixen Problems? Dial 1-900-911-waah $5/min dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
First High Priest of the Church of the Squooshy Ball.

Message no. 99 |
|[snip q about fave totems]
|
|> Fox! Fox! Fox! (also known as:
|>
|> - Jackal, Dvixen, Kitsune and Zorro (in different languages)
|
|Excuse me? A vixen is a female Fox, but as far as I know, there is no
|such word as 'Dvixen', in *any* language.
|
|Dvixen is unique. It would do you all well to remember that.

And if you don't....
Lets just say, I hope you like carp.....

:)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 100 At 00:00 18/07/97 +1000, Glenn Munro wrote:
>I have to disagree here. Hermetic mages study to learn their magic often
>using mathematical formulas and the like. Those that even bother to try you
>would expect to have average and above willpowers. Then with the shamanic
>tradition why would a totem choose low willpowered individuals? The totem
^^^^^^^
>wants to advance its own cause and would choose the best people for that
>job and people with low willpower generally would not suit.

<grin> What?!?! Damn. I thought totems were just a convenient mental
magical crutch for the shaman. No more real than any other hallucination.
</grin>

Seriously though. Have the members of this list concluded that the totems
are real - objectively and substantively real? This seems a bit too AD&Dish
for me.

Chris

_______________________________________________________________
Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.

Message no. 101 > What?!?! Damn. I thought totems were just a convenient mental
> magical crutch for the shaman. No more real than any other hallucination.
>
Wow this calls into question how we perceive magic! are very beliefs!!
well me personally, I believe that totems are actual spirits that guide
their shaman through life. (shaman talking) but if you are a hermetic
mage and think that magic is just impersonal ethernic (how do you spell
that?) energy, than it's merely a hallucination, whether real or not
they can effect life for me and that makes them real enough! !! !!!well
as I've said I haven't played much D&D so that I can't effectively
comment on. but I'll ask this, Is this a bad thing? (I really wand to
know)
enough said?

Caun :}

Message no. 102 >Seriously though. Have the members of this list
>concluded that the totems are real - objectively
>and substantively real? This seems a bit too
>AD&Dish for me.

Took me a minute to figure out what AD&D had
to do with it, and then I figured out you meant
clerics w/ "real" gods vs. magic users with "just"
magic.

Anyway, there are a few questions like this that
Shadowrun the game system is agnostic about:
Are totems real or figments, does conjuring
summon or create spirits, does magic follow
rules of nature or is it a thing of spirit and intent.
(Actually the answer to the last one, like "Is light
a particle or a wave?", is fairly clear: the answer
is "YES")

IMHO, if it were possible to devise an expirement
that would answer these questions, some PHd in
Thaumaturgy would have tried it already, and
FASA would have revealed the result. Therefore,
all such experements have been inconclusive.
Therefore, in my game, neither the characters
nor the players can know the answers to these
questions (although they can have opinions).

Totems come out of the collective unconscious,
and whether the sixth age has given these
archetypes (in the Jungian, not the SR sense)
actual identities isn't clear. Maybe a dog
shaman is simply in better contact with the
dog-like parts of humanities collective brains,
with the astral plane working like a giant
switchboard of ideas, concepts and information.
His subconscious becomes aware of something,
and presto--Dog appears in his mind to tell him.

Double-Domed Mike

Message no. 103 On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Chris Maxfield wrote:
> <grin> What?!?! Damn. I thought totems were just a convenient mental
> magical crutch for the shaman. No more real than any other hallucination.
> </grin>
>
> Seriously though. Have the members of this list concluded that the totems
> are real - objectively and substantively real? This seems a bit too AD&Dish
> for me.
>
Actually if one looks into the mythos of the Native Americans the totems
are real. Their not quite as "human" as the greek pantheon for example,
but they are quite real.

It makes for some interesting ideas for SR when you start translating
ancient Native American myths and legends into their 21st century
equivalents.

As to whther or not they are real, consider this; is a nature spirit
"real" well maybe not at first, but if it goes free, then it certainly
is. (within the laws of the UCAS, CAS, Aztlan etc etc etc)

In SR if enough people "believe" then something happens. Reference
Gator, being an urban totem. The BBB clearly states that this facet grew
out of urban legend (20th century urban legend).

Anyway my point is (I really do have one). I think that there are a lot
of cool rolepaying oppurtunities if you allow the totems to be real
independent entities. Note; nowhere does it say the totems have any real
power in the material world.

Imagine Raccoon wanting his shaman to organize a shadowrun just to tweak
Cat's nose.

Regards

-Bill

Message no. 104 At 06:27 PM 7/18/97 +1000, Chris Maxfield wrote these timeless words:
>At 00:00 18/07/97 +1000, Glenn Munro wrote:
>>I have to disagree here. Hermetic mages study to learn their magic often
>>using mathematical formulas and the like. Those that even bother to try you
>>would expect to have average and above willpowers. Then with the shamanic
>>tradition why would a totem choose low willpowered individuals? The totem
> ^^^^^^^
>>wants to advance its own cause and would choose the best people for that
>>job and people with low willpower generally would not suit.
>
><grin> What?!?! Damn. I thought totems were just a convenient mental
>magical crutch for the shaman. No more real than any other hallucination.
></grin>
>
>Seriously though. Have the members of this list concluded that the totems
>are real - objectively and substantively real? This seems a bit too AD&Dish
>for me.
>
This REALLY gets into a wierd area, where you will get lots of varied
opinion, but yes, i think the list consensus is that Totems are real, i one
way or another. Now, go ask what a Totem is, and you'll get a dozen
different answers, but most will agree that Totems are real, in one way or
another.

In my personal game, they are very real, and very undefined...;]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

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Message no. 105 At 09:31 AM 7/18/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>Seriously though. Have the members of this list
>>concluded that the totems are real - objectively
>>and substantively real? This seems a bit too
>>AD&Dish for me.
>

I always took the Totems to be powerful spirits who guided the shaman, but
didnt supply his power, per se, they merely teach him how to use it porperly
(from their POV). They cannot be total figments, otherwise how would the
insect shaman be possessed by their totem, or the voudoun (connected IMHO)
woudnt be ridden. Explaining it away as pure hallucination trivializes it a
bit, but so does making the totems gods. OC, both explanations are MORE than
proper in the setting though. Many a mage and a shaman have duked out the
issue, I am sure : )

>Took me a minute to figure out what AD&D had
>to do with it, and then I figured out you meant
>clerics w/ "real" gods vs. magic users with "just"
>magic.
>
>Anyway, there are a few questions like this that
>Shadowrun the game system is agnostic about:
>Are totems real or figments, does conjuring
>summon or create spirits, does magic follow
>rules of nature or is it a thing of spirit and intent.
>(Actually the answer to the last one, like "Is light
>a particle or a wave?", is fairly clear: the answer
>is "YES")
>

yes no maybe so : )

>IMHO, if it were possible to devise an expirement
>that would answer these questions, some PHd in
>Thaumaturgy would have tried it already, and
>FASA would have revealed the result. Therefore,
>all such experements have been inconclusive.
>Therefore, in my game, neither the characters
>nor the players can know the answers to these
>questions (although they can have opinions).
>
>Totems come out of the collective unconscious,
>and whether the sixth age has given these
>archetypes (in the Jungian, not the SR sense)
>actual identities isn't clear. Maybe a dog
>shaman is simply in better contact with the
>dog-like parts of humanities collective brains,
>with the astral plane working like a giant
>switchboard of ideas, concepts and information.
>His subconscious becomes aware of something,
>and presto--Dog appears in his mind to tell him.
>

very hermetic :- )

k a b a e l meo the shoes :- ) kabael@****.net

Message no. 106 In a message dated 97-07-18 04:47:59 EDT, cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU (Chris
Maxfield) writes:

>
> Seriously though. Have the members of this list concluded that the totems
> are real - objectively and substantively real? This seems a bit too
AD&Dish
> for me.
>
> Chris
>
> _
Good question (wow big Lightning here now), I know that the big spirit in
Nosferatu was what actually did the cyber-removal to the troll, but the troll
perceived it as Bear moving into him deeper.

I also know however that if the Essence/Magic were somehow restored (have
rules in the game, give the karma, we'll talk) then yeah sure, "Bear" would
gladly move into his/her Shaman quickly and more deeply (Den Instinct).

But, to query up an ED term. What about the Passions and the Loa? Those two
sets of beings are most notably -not- mental constructs in the normal sense
as Spells, Watchers and perhaps Ally beings.
-Keith

Message no. 107 In a message dated 97-07-18 10:51:56 EDT, wma6617@****.TAMU.EDU writes:

>
> Anyway my point is (I really do have one). I think that there are a lot
> of cool rolepaying oppurtunities if you allow the totems to be real
> independent entities. Note; nowhere does it say the totems have any real
> power in the material world.

I wouldn't want to have to be the one telling that to Spider.

> Imagine Raccoon wanting his shaman to organize a shadowrun just to tweak
> Cat's nose.

(Pondering) Now that could be a fun game...

-Keith

Message no. 108 |But, to query up an ED term. What about the Passions and the Loa? Those two
|sets of beings are most notably -not- mental constructs in the normal sense
|as Spells, Watchers and perhaps Ally beings.

I think you're looking at it in the wrong way.

Magic is based primarily in BELIEF, right?

A mage who doesn't believe in magic, can't cast spells.
(But if he believes in Spiderman, he might aquire a talent for
wallcrawling...)

Now, what about the entire population? What do *THEY* believe in?

The entire population of Barsiave believed in the passions. They passions
probably made their first appearance soon after the arrival of the magic in
the 4th world.

They only existed because they were CREATED from the collective unconcious.
They still, exist because of the few survivors, and the fact that some of
those survivors are starting passion cults.

The Totems also figure strongly in this.

Hell, even Jesus, God, and Satan probably started to exist (VERY POWERFULLY)
due to the billions that believe in them....
[It should be noted that I'm an athiest and firmly believe that man created
god to explain cosmic mysteries]

Now? When d'you reccon the second coming'll be?

:)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 109 At 12:22 19/07/97 +0100, Spike wrote (while referring to ED passions):
>They only existed because they were CREATED from the collective unconcious.
>They still, exist because of the few survivors, and the fact that some of
>those survivors are starting passion cults.
>
>The Totems also figure strongly in this.

I see from the answers to my question that some list members believe totems
to be real - but real in the sense that Spike describes above.

One of the aspects of Shadowrun that I love the most is the ambiguity and
mystery pervading the game. We never really know what's going on; the
motivations and goals of the Dragons, Megacorps, IE, governments, etc., etc
are open to question - if explained at all. This adds to the feelings of
danger and realism for me. The same goes for magic, particularly totems -
just what are they? This is left largely unexplained in the rules and is
the way I prefer it. [All apparent totem activities can be explained,
usually by a mage, as purely internal to the shaman. Even loa riding can
be explained in terms of some sort of Multiple Personalities disorder. :-) ]

However, by the way this list has been describing the activities of the
totems (eg a totem choosing its shaman rather than the other way round) I
had the impression that people seemed to have accepted the idea that totems
were fully independent of shamans. (Powerful entities residing in the
metaplanes and meddling in the affairs of mortals type stuff.) I was not
comfortable with this and so I asked the question about whether list
members believed totems to be real.

The replies show that other people also like to leave totems undefined.
Perhaps totems are the metaplanar incarnation of the Jungian archetypes
from the collective sub/unconscious. Or maybe not. Perhaps they are the
magical embodiment of shamanic belief. Or maybe not. Perhaps they are
powerful free spirits. Or maybe not. Or perhaps they only exist in the
shaman's mind as an alternate personality (any bi-cameral mind enthusiasts
out there?). Or maybe not. The one explanation that I cannot except is that
they are Powers That Have Existed Since Before The Dawn Of Time. They damn
well don't exist now in 1997 and so a good explanation is needed for where
they came from by 2058.

But my hermetic mage still thinks a totem only exists in the shaman's own
imagination. ;-)

Chris

_______________________________________________________________
Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.

Message no. 110 In a message dated 97-07-19 07:23:50 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
writes:

>
> |But, to query up an ED term. What about the Passions and the Loa? Those

> two
> |sets of beings are most notably -not- mental constructs in the normal
sense
> |as Spells, Watchers and perhaps Ally beings.
>
> I think you're looking at it in the wrong way.

Maybe, but I don't think so. I am trying to look at it entirely differently
than the common thread. That doesn't make it wrong, it makes it different.

> Magic is based primarily in BELIEF, right?

The -usage- of magic maybe, but I don't think the power itself. If that were
true, then the Awakening would likely not have occurred. Reason being is
that I find it hard to believe that the entire world's belief in "the
unknown" had reached such a point as all that and it simply came into
existence. And if you could ask the IE's, you'd have to add the word "AGAIN"
to that sentence.

> A mage who doesn't believe in magic, can't cast spells.
> (But if he believes in Spiderman, he might aquire a talent for
> wallcrawling...)

This is the difference in philosophy and symbology if I recall correctly.
And the Grimoire and Awakenings books have stuff on the "mage who doesn't
believe in magic" theories.

> Now, what about the entire population? What do *THEY* believe in?

Collective Consciousness is a design flaw... (-wink-)

> The entire population of Barsiave believed in the passions. They passions
> probably made their first appearance soon after the arrival of the magic
in
> the 4th world.

I don't really recall that information being given anywhere in ED. Granted,
ED has the Passions, and for the game system, that is fine.

> They only existed because they were CREATED from the collective
unconcious.
> They still, exist because of the few survivors, and the fact that some of
> those survivors are starting passion cults.

Actually, this sounds more like a personal belief than something for game
mechanics. It's that really stupid argument on "my system vs. your system"
thing.

>
> The Totems also figure strongly in this.

I still wouldn't suggest telling Spider that, or a being that a collective
group of "spider shamans" -created-.

>
> Hell, even Jesus, God, and Satan probably started to exist (VERY
POWERFULLY)
> due to the billions that believe in them....

And don't ya just love how big game system/writers just skirt that issue.
Hell, I think Charrette was glorious with S. Verner's "God with God"
statement.

> [It should be noted that I'm an athiest and firmly believe that man
created
> god to explain cosmic mysteries]
>
> Now? When d'you reccon the second coming'll be?

I think it already has, the world just doesn't -BELIEVE- anymore ... we're a
blind race in general with no real ability to remain in touch to our
surroundings. Shadowrun is dealing with the concept of the "unimaginable"
being made tangible, or at least as close to that as the Karmic Winds will
allow.

> :)
(: >

-Keith (had to do that inverted smiley moustache)

Message no. 111 In a message dated 97-07-19 11:34:37 EDT, cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU (Chris
Maxfield) writes:

> The one explanation that I cannot except is that
> they are Powers That Have Existed Since Before The Dawn Of Time. They damn
> well don't exist now in 1997 and so a good explanation is needed for where
> they came from by 2058.
>
One could look at it in a different fashion. The mana-bridge that is part of
SR's history allowed for the channelling to be created more readily. The
totems/icons whatever have you, have existed in mythology and earth historic
culture for untold of centuries. Perhaps they still exist, perhaps not?
-Keith

Message no. 112 At 01:31 AM 7/20/97 +1000, Chris Maxfield wrote these timeless words:
The one explanation that I cannot except is that
>they are Powers That Have Existed Since Before The Dawn Of Time. They damn
>well don't exist now in 1997 and so a good explanation is needed for where
>they came from by 2058.
>
While I agree that Totems are not PthESBtDoT, they are definately older
than you think...

What do you think Native American indians worshipped back a couple hundred
years ago (and even today), if not the memory of the totems from the last
age of magic?

There are no totems and magic Now, granted, though most of the native
american totems Do exist now. I think of them as "Sleeping", similar to
what it is theorized the Dragon's did. After all, with no mana, they're
powerless, as are their followers...

Granted, this doesn;t explain some of the Modern Totems, or the City totems...

I think this is a really wierd area, the thing with the totems...

Since I'm typing this already, I might as well formulate my own theories on
the subject. GM's have to do that sort of thing ya know...:]

BULL'S TOTEM THEORY:

((Warning: After thinking this through a bit, it starts to sound vaguely
like AD&D Gods, as well as "God's from hundreds of other Fantasy settings.
Deal with it. AD&D and SR have a lot in common, despite the vehement
dennials of most players.))

It's simple.

1. There are an infinate number of "greater Spirits" that live on the
metaplanes.

2. These spirits have a lot of power, but without "worshippers"
or"followers" of some kind, they cannot reach the "Plane of Man"
(What the
hell is our plane of existance called in SR?).

3. When a large enough group of people start to believe in something (Or
even a single person who believes strongly enough), like the Urban Gator
Totem, then one of the Greater Spirits can latch on and form itself around
this belief. The spirits grants power, but at the same time is shaped and
formed (and confined) by this belief. Thus, while some of the Totems
(suchs as the Native American Totems) have been around for thousand's of
years, gator, Leviathan, and Elvis has only been around sicne the Awakening.

4. Once "attuned" to their totem, whether by consious choice or by being
"chosen" by their totem, their opower is then linked with it. Thus, the
benifits and restrictions of a totem that must be followed, and the loss of
power should the Shaman turn away from his totem.

5. There may be different forms of the same Totem, as different "aspects"
of a Totem are called upon by different Shamans, thus allowing a Differnt
Greater Spirit to attach itself to that focus.

6. Insect Totems are NOT from this realm. rather, they are in essence
Minor Horrors, or something similar.

Ok, that's all I can think of now... Granted, it doesn;t all make perfect
sense, and as I mentioned before, smacks of AD&D or other fantasy concpts
(If any of you have read some of the recent Raymond Feist novels, I'm
actually basing the idea on the concept of how their gods work. Don;t ask
me to explain, though. I can;t. :] )

And, this will probably be the working theory behind my Totems and Shamans
in my game. I LIKE the idea of a Shaman being controlled and drawning
strength and power from a greater being. It makes the shaman more unique,
and gives them so many more Roleplaying oppurtunities...;]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
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Message no. 113 Bull spoke thusly:
>[snip: BULL'S TOTEM THEORY:]
>
>Ok, that's all I can think of now... Granted, it doesn;t all make perfect
>sense, and as I mentioned before, smacks of AD&D or other fantasy concpts
>(If any of you have read some of the recent Raymond Feist novels, I'm
>actually basing the idea on the concept of how their gods work. Don;t ask
>me to explain, though. I can;t. :] )
>
Hey Bull, have u read the swords/lost swords stuff by Saberhagen? People
came first and created gods. The Gods were real and believed they created
Humans. The forger god made some magic swords. Eventually poeple stopped
believing in gods but the magic swords remained.

>And, this will probably be the working theory behind my Totems and Shamans
>in my game. I LIKE the idea of a Shaman being controlled and drawning
>strength and power from a greater being. It makes the shaman more unique,
>and gives them so many more Roleplaying oppurtunities...;]
>
Yeah. I like the totem and shaman interacting...the shaman being guided by
a higher power...or asking for help :)

QuickFix

The man who made it did not want it;
The man who bought it did not use it;
The man who used it did not know it.

Message no. 114 >Ok, that's all I can think of now... Granted, it doesn;t all make perfect
>sense, and as I mentioned before, smacks of AD&D or other fantasy concpts
>(If any of you have read some of the recent Raymond Feist novels, I'm
>actually basing the idea on the concept of how their gods work. Don;t ask
>me to explain, though. I can;t. :] )

Actually, it sounds moslty like the Discworld model to me.

Message no. 115 |
|>Ok, that's all I can think of now... Granted, it doesn;t all make perfect
|>sense, and as I mentioned before, smacks of AD&D or other fantasy concpts
|>(If any of you have read some of the recent Raymond Feist novels, I'm
|>actually basing the idea on the concept of how their gods work. Don;t ask
|>me to explain, though. I can;t. :] )
|
|Actually, it sounds moslty like the Discworld model to me.
|
That's what I was thinking too....
BULL! If you haven't already, READ SMALL GODS!
You won't regret it.... :)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 116 At 02:36 20/07/97 -0400, Bull wrote:
>What do you think Native American indians worshipped back a couple hundred
>years ago (and even today), if not the memory of the totems from the last
>age of magic?

Or maybe a tribal belief system with a strong basis in wisdom but with no
more basis in reality than the tooth fairy. :-) Ah - can I have a tooth
fairy shaman? Now what would my totem bonuses be?

<<snip>>
>3. When a large enough group of people start to believe in something (Or
>even a single person who believes strongly enough), like the Urban Gator
>Totem, then one of the Greater Spirits can latch on and form itself around
>this belief. The spirits grants power, but at the same time is shaped and
>formed (and confined) by this belief. Thus, while some of the Totems
>(suchs as the Native American Totems) have been around for thousand's of
>years, gator, Leviathan, and Elvis has only been around sicne the Awakening.
<<snip>>
>Ok, that's all I can think of now... Granted, it doesn;t all make perfect
>sense, and as I mentioned before, smacks of AD&D or other fantasy concpts
>(If any of you have read some of the recent Raymond Feist novels, I'm
>actually basing the idea on the concept of how their gods work. Don;t ask
>me to explain, though. I can;t. :] )

Yep. I've read this explanation for the origin of gods in both Raymond
Feist's Rift War books and in Terry Pratchett's 'Small Gods'.

My preference for totems, however, is that they only exist in and are
created in an age of magic. They are beings created in the metaplanes
through the mysteries of magic from the essence (spirit?) of belief and as
a focus of belief. While the age of magic lasts they exist and when the age
of magic dies so too do the totems truly die. As they are created by
belief, this belief defines their nature and powers, and also limits their
actions. They are nevertheless objectively independent beings with their
own, possibly unknowable, agenda.

For this reason, the way I prefer to view totemic 'choosing' is as more of
a resonance between the totem and a magically active person with a similar
nature. If the person is sensitive enough to be aware of this resonance and
acknowledges the link then they gain a spirit guide and a totem. I know -
very hermetic. :-)

I still haven't decided, though, whether or not totems are fully sentient
or are non-self aware metaplanar constructs of shamanic belief. ;->

Chris

_______________________________________________________________
Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.

Message no. 117 At 12:11 PM 7/20/97 +0100, Spike wrote these timeless words:
>|
>|>Ok, that's all I can think of now... Granted, it doesn;t all make perfect
>|>sense, and as I mentioned before, smacks of AD&D or other fantasy concpts
>|>(If any of you have read some of the recent Raymond Feist novels, I'm
>|>actually basing the idea on the concept of how their gods work. Don;t ask
>|>me to explain, though. I can;t. :] )
>|
>|Actually, it sounds moslty like the Discworld model to me.
>|
>That's what I was thinking too....
>BULL! If you haven't already, READ SMALL GODS!
>You won't regret it.... :)
>
YOu know, Ever since I joined this list you guys have talked about the
Discworld books... But for the life of me I can't find them anywhere! The
only Discworld anything I'd seen or heard of before joining the list was
the video game...

Hmmm... Maybe time to order some books?

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me

Message no. 118 |YOu know, Ever since I joined this list you guys have talked about the
|Discworld books... But for the life of me I can't find them anywhere! The
|only Discworld anything I'd seen or heard of before joining the list was
|the video game...
|
|Hmmm... Maybe time to order some books?

One word.... Yes!

If you want to get them in the correct order, it's:
The Colour of Magic, The Light Fantastic, Equal Rites, Mort, Wyrd Sisters
(now a Channel 4 cartoon ;) ), errrr.... HELP.... There're so many I've
forgotten the order......

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 119 >But, to query up an ED term. What about the
>Passions and the Loa? Those two sets of
>beings are most notably -not- mental
>constructs in the normal sense as Spells,
>Watchers and perhaps Ally beings.

Maybe, maybe not, but I dare you to PROVE it.

Double-Domed Mike

Message no. 120 >|YOu know, Ever since I joined this list you guys have talked about the
>|Discworld books... But for the life of me I can't find them anywhere! The
>|only Discworld anything I'd seen or heard of before joining the list was
>|the video game...
>|
>|Hmmm... Maybe time to order some books?
>
>One word.... Yes!
>
>If you want to get them in the correct order, it's:
>The Colour of Magic, The Light Fantastic, Equal Rites, Mort, Wyrd Sisters
>(now a Channel 4 cartoon ;) ), errrr.... HELP.... There're so many I've
>forgotten the order......

Umm.. My suggestion if you _really_ want to get them in order is: buy
them all at once and read the "other books" listings.

Message no. 121 What is the best totem for a shamanic(totemic?)adept?cause I cant make
up my mind,and I need some help choosing.with the totems,if it isnt in
the SRII rulebook,send the bonuses,Careteristics,and disadvantages.
thank you.

Message no. 122 > What is the best totem for a shamanic(totemic?)adept?cause I cant
> make up my mind,and I need some help choosing.with the totems,if it
> isnt in the SRII rulebook,send the bonuses,Careteristics,and
> disadvantages. thank you.

The "best" totem for this is whichever one fits the personality of
your character. Trying to pick a totem based on the adv/dis is the
path that leads to poor, powergaming and/or munchkinous characters.

Message no. 123 Brett Borger wrote:
>
> > What is the best totem for a shamanic(totemic?)adept?cause I cant
> > make up my mind,and I need some help choosing.with the totems,if it
> > isnt in the SRII rulebook,send the bonuses,Careteristics,and
> > disadvantages. thank you.
>
> The "best" totem for this is whichever one fits the personality of
> your character. Trying to pick a totem based on the adv/dis is the
> path that leads to poor, powergaming and/or munchkinous characters.
ya,but i dont have a charecter yet.I need all you people out there(even
Bio-hazard) to give me ideas.

Message no. 124 On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, Tyrell Hughes wrote:

> What is the best totem for a shamanic(totemic?)adept?cause I cant make
> up my mind,and I need some help choosing.with the totems,if it isnt in
> the SRII rulebook,send the bonuses,Careteristics,and disadvantages.
> thank you.

Well, that depends, what type of adept are you trying for? If you're
trying for a tough, combat-heavy adept, you'd probably want to go with
Wolf. Otoh, if you'd prefer a sneaky, stealthy adept, maybe Cat would be
better. It all depends on what type of character you're looking for.

-Q

---------------------------------------
I dislike Windows95 for the same reason people dislike New Coke
It tastes disgustingly like Pepsi.

Scott "Q" Meyer
Scott.E.Meyer@*******.edu
http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer

Message no. 125 In a message dated 97-09-14 16:47:30 EDT, you write:

> What is the best totem for a shamanic(totemic?)adept?cause I cant make
> up my mind,and I need some help choosing.with the totems,if it isnt in
> the SRII rulebook,send the bonuses,Careteristics,and disadvantages.
> thank you.

How about you describe yourself some, in simple terms, at most 12 things,
like the Boy Scouts try and do (the corporate scouts from Fuchi have 15 to 17
to follow). This way helping you pick a totem might be easier.

Message no. 126 On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, Tyrell Hughes wrote:

> What is the best totem for a shamanic(totemic?)adept?cause I cant make
> up my mind,and I need some help choosing.with the totems,if it isnt in
> the SRII rulebook,send the bonuses,Careteristics,and disadvantages.
> thank you.
>

<smirk>

one of the ones I like the best is Gator

but then again I was making a combat monster at the time.

Mike

Message no. 127 >
> How about you describe yourself some, in simple terms, at most 12 things,
> like the Boy Scouts try and do (the corporate scouts from Fuchi have 15 to 17
> to follow). This way helping you pick a totem might be easier.

ok here goes:
Strong
wise
physically slow
mentally fast
nice
friendly,at times
always social
and alway looking for a nonlethal way when possible

Message no. 128 > ok here goes:
> Strong
> wise
> physically slow
> mentally fast
> nice
> friendly,at times
> always social
> and alway looking for a nonlethal way when possible

Okay, breakdown:

Strong: Lion, Gator, Wolf, Bear. Very few are anti-strong
Wise: Owl, Cat, Moon (Check to see if your GM allows Moon as
non-druidic...oh wait, we're looking at main book only), Eagle
Physically Slow: Gator (is this by choice or body?)
Mentally Fast: NOT gator. Cat, Owl, Rat, Racoon (Few want to say
they are dumb.
Nice: Dog.
Friendly (at times): At times, everybody. More often Dog, Bear,
Snake.
Always Social: Dog.
Always looking Non-lethal. Dog, Snake.

Going by these, I'd take a look at Dog. But then, 7 traits or so may
not give me a good idea. Read the Roleplaying section on Dog and see
if it matches what you feel your character is like. Remember that
some leeway is possible.

Message no. 129 On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Tyrell Hughes wrote:

> >
> > How about you describe yourself some, in simple terms, at most 12 things,
> > like the Boy Scouts try and do (the corporate scouts from Fuchi have 15 to 17
> > to follow). This way helping you pick a totem might be easier.
>
> ok here goes:
> Strong
> wise
> physically slow
> mentally fast
> nice
> friendly,at times
> always social
> and alway looking for a nonlethal way when possible
>

Can anyone say Bear? It seems perfect. :)

-Czar Eggbert
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Czar-"What-ABOUT-boB?"- Eggbert
Ruler, Dark Side of the Moon.
homepage: http:\\www.creighton.edu\~czregbrt
mailto:czregbrt@*********.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality!? Is that some new game?"
-MDF
"It's not the heat, it's the humidity.It's not the voltage, it's the current.
It's not the meat, it's the motion. And it's not the pipe - it's the will."
- Jeff Vogel
Scorched Earth Party
http://cspo.queensu.ca/~fletcher/Scorch/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 130 Brett Borger wrote:
>
> > ok here goes:
> > Strong
> > wise
> > physically slow
> > mentally fast
> > nice
> > friendly,at times
> > always social
> > and alway looking for a nonlethal way when possible
>
> Okay, breakdown:
>
> Strong: Lion, Gator, Wolf, Bear. Very few are anti-strong
> Wise: Owl, Cat, Moon (Check to see if your GM allows Moon as
> non-druidic...oh wait, we're looking at main book only), Eagle
> Physically Slow: Gator (is this by choice or body?)

By body.
> Mentally Fast: NOT gator. Cat, Owl, Rat, Racoon (Few want to say
> they are dumb.
> Nice: Dog.
> Friendly (at times): At times, everybody. More often Dog, Bear,
> Snake.
> Always Social: Dog.
> Always looking Non-lethal. Dog, Snake.
>
I think Ill go with snake. are there any others with more than 2 bonuses
for casting that fit my charecterisdtics?

Message no. 131 At 01:43 PM 9/15/97 -0500, Tyrell Hughes wrote these timeless words:
>>
>> How about you describe yourself some, in simple terms, at most 12 things,
>> like the Boy Scouts try and do (the corporate scouts from Fuchi have 15
to 17
>> to follow). This way helping you pick a totem might be easier.
>
>ok here goes:
>Strong
>wise
>physically slow
>mentally fast
>nice
>friendly,at times
>always social
>and alway looking for a nonlethal way when possible
>
I vote we make him a Woodchuck Shaman!

:]

<grin>

Bull

P.S. YOu are still overiding the list Reply-To field. In your Options
menu of your mail program, yu should have a spot to set your reply-to.
Simply leave it blank. That might not do it, but usually will.
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Whoever invented solataire is one sadistic son of a bitch"
-- Me, after spending 2 hours trying to win a game

Message no. 132 > I vote we make him a Woodchuck Shaman!
>
> :]

What are its bonuseses

>
> P.S. YOu are still overiding the list Reply-To field. In your Options
> menu of your mail program, yu should have a spot to set your reply-to.
> Simply leave it blank. That might not do it, but usually will.

dont Know how.

Message no. 133 At 06:31 PM 9/15/97 -0500, Tyrell Hughes wrote these timeless words:
>> I vote we make him a Woodchuck Shaman!
>>
>> :]
>
>What are its bonuseses
>
It was a joke, but...

+3 dice to all Illusions spells, but only if those spells are for something
that has nothing to do with the run (i.e., Off Topic).

+5 dice to resist flame spells

-1 Dice to any spell casting test that has to do with the run...

+1 dice to all social tests

Personality: Woodchucks are friendly, inquisitive, more than a little
silly, and quite intelligent. However, they have short attention spans,
and have trouble paying attention to anytyhing serious for more than a
minute . A Willpower 8 test is required for the Shaman to Focus on
anything of a serious nature for more than a couple rounds. This includes
combat, as Woodchuck Shamans are wont to wander off, distracted by
something Bright and Shiny, even in the middle of a firefight!

Woodchuck Shamans also usually know an inordinant amount of useless
knowledge about such trivial things as Cartoons, Toys, Trid SHows, Movies,
Sports Trivia, Comics, and other such pursuits. Woodchuck Shamans get 12
points to put into "Trivia" skills during character creations, but these
may NOT be trivia about anything Useful to a shadowrunner, like Guns,
Warfare, etc.

[Gee, that's not half bad... maybe I'll save it. it's silly, but could be
a fun character...:)]

>> P.S. YOu are still overiding the list Reply-To field. In your Options
>> menu of your mail program, yu should have a spot to set your reply-to.
>> Simply leave it blank. That might not do it, but usually will.
>
>dont Know how.
>
OK... Simplist question is...

What mailer are you using? We'll work from tehre...

You haven;t been doing the e-mail thing long, have you? :]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Whoever invented solataire is one sadistic son of a bitch"
-- Me, after spending 2 hours trying to win a game

Message no. 134 Bull wrote:
>
> At 06:31 PM 9/15/97 -0500, Tyrell Hughes wrote these timeless words:
> >> I vote we make him a Woodchuck Shaman!
> >>
> >> :]
> >
> >What are its bonuseses
> >
> It was a joke, but...
>
> +3 dice to all Illusions spells, but only if those spells are for something
> that has nothing to do with the run (i.e., Off Topic).
>
> +5 dice to resist flame spells
>
> -1 Dice to any spell casting test that has to do with the run...
>
> +1 dice to all social tests
>
> Personality: Woodchucks are friendly, inquisitive, more than a little
> silly, and quite intelligent. However, they have short attention spans,
> and have trouble paying attention to anytyhing serious for more than a
> minute . A Willpower 8 test is required for the Shaman to Focus on
> anything of a serious nature for more than a couple rounds. This includes
> combat, as Woodchuck Shamans are wont to wander off, distracted by
> something Bright and Shiny, even in the middle of a firefight!
>
> Woodchuck Shamans also usually know an inordinant amount of useless
> knowledge about such trivial things as Cartoons, Toys, Trid SHows, Movies,
> Sports Trivia, Comics, and other such pursuits. Woodchuck Shamans get 12
> points to put into "Trivia" skills during character creations, but these
> may NOT be trivia about anything Useful to a shadowrunner, like Guns,
> Warfare, etc.
>
> [Gee, that's not half bad... maybe I'll save it. it's silly, but could be
> a fun character...:)]
im going to use the woodchuck totem from here on out. Is there some test
My shaman can make to cast an illusion spell on the run, or for that
matter, any spells concearning the run?thanks.

> >> P.S. YOu are still overiding the list Reply-To field. In your Options
> >> menu of your mail program, yu should have a spot to set your reply-to.
> >> Simply leave it blank. That might not do it, but usually will.
> >
> >dont Know how.
> >
> OK... Simplist question is...

> What mailer are you using? We'll work from tehre...>
Netscape navigator gold

> You haven;t been doing the e-mail thing long, have you? :]
>
nope

Message no. 135 bull,How about this.Everything Should be in order,officer bull.

Message no. 136 At 08:21 PM 9/15/97 -0500, Tyrell Hughes wrote:
#bull,How about this.Everything Should be in order,officer bull.

this worked just fine...

--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

Message no. 137 On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:48:53 -0400 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:
>At 06:31 PM 9/15/97 -0500, Tyrell Hughes wrote these timeless words:
>>> I vote we make him a Woodchuck Shaman!
>>>
>>> :]
>>
>>What are its bonuseses
>>
>It was a joke, but...
>
>+3 dice to all Illusions spells, but only if those spells are for
>something
>that has nothing to do with the run (i.e., Off Topic).
>
>+5 dice to resist flame spells
>
>-1 Dice to any spell casting test that has to do with the run...
>
>+1 dice to all social tests

What? Nothing about Carp-elemental spells? Where's Caric ...

:)

John Pederson "Define 'irony': a bunch of idiots
dancing
aka Canthros, shapeshifter mage in the front of a plane to a tune by a
group
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com who died in a plane crash."
john.e.pederson@***********.edu --The Mangler,
"ConAir"
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN
3190186

Message no. 138 In a message dated 97-09-15 15:35:43 EDT, you write:

> > ok here goes:
> > Strong
> > wise
> > physically slow
> > mentally fast
> > nice
> > friendly,at times
> > always social
> > and alway looking for a nonlethal way when possible
> >
>
> Can anyone say Bear? It seems perfect. :)

I agree with you, Bear seems a good fit, even though Bear is not an urban
totem, stories of people having bears as pets in the city abound somewhat.

Message no. 139 At 08:21 PM 9/15/97 -0500, Tyrell Hughes wrote these timeless words:
>bull,How about this.Everything Should be in order,officer bull.
>
By George, I think he's got it! :]

And it's just Bull... I'm not an Officer, just an Ork with WAY too much
time on his hands...;] And who ALWAYS forgets to change the reply-to if
it's screwed up, so mail goes to the wrong place...:]

Everything looks good...;]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Whoever invented solataire is one sadistic son of a bitch"
-- Me, after spending 2 hours trying to win a game

Message no. 140 At 03:27 AM 9/16/97 -0400, Mike Bobroff wrote these timeless words:
>In a message dated 97-09-15 15:35:43 EDT, you write:
>
>> > ok here goes:
>> > Strong
>> > wise
>> > physically slow
>> > mentally fast
>> > nice
>> > friendly,at times
>> > always social
>> > and alway looking for a nonlethal way when possible
>> >
>>
>> Can anyone say Bear? It seems perfect. :)
>
>I agree with you, Bear seems a good fit, even though Bear is not an urban
>totem, stories of people having bears as pets in the city abound somewhat.
>
I have to agree here, as well as offer up a couple others... Lion and Dog,
probably more towards Lion... though Bear is still Number 1 :]

I've seen snake mentioned before, but... Snake isn't all that Strong, and
is often physically Quick. At least, that's how I'd build him...

Bull

--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Whoever invented solataire is one sadistic son of a bitch"
-- Me, after spending 2 hours trying to win a game

Message no. 141 At 11:03 PM 9/15/97 -0500, John E Pederson wrote these timeless words:
>On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:48:53 -0400 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:
>>At 06:31 PM 9/15/97 -0500, Tyrell Hughes wrote these timeless words:
>>>> I vote we make him a Woodchuck Shaman!
>>>>
>>>> :]
>>>
>>>What are its bonuseses
>>>
>>It was a joke, but...
>>
>>+3 dice to all Illusions spells, but only if those spells are for
>>something
>>that has nothing to do with the run (i.e., Off Topic).
>>
>>+5 dice to resist flame spells
>>
>>-1 Dice to any spell casting test that has to do with the run...
>>
>>+1 dice to all social tests
>
>
>What? Nothing about Carp-elemental spells? Where's Caric ...
>
>:)
>
Caric has a new job that's keeping him busy and not giving him 8 hour a day
e-mail access, so... he's a bit quieter than usual...:(

However, the woodchuck doesn;t have the Mana-Carp spell, he is just less
resistant to it. He gets -3 dice to resist it. however, since he LIKES
the smell of wet, 1000 year old carp... Sort of makes the spell useless,
doesn't it? :]

Bul-thel-Ork-who's-seriously-considering-playing-one-of-these-now!-Ork-Decekr
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Whoever invented solataire is one sadistic son of a bitch"
-- Me, after spending 2 hours trying to win a game

Message no. 142 > > > How about you describe yourself some, in simple terms, at most 12 things,
> > > like the Boy Scouts try and do (the corporate scouts from Fuchi have 15
to 17
> > > to follow). This way helping you pick a totem might be easier.
> >
> > ok here goes:
> > Strong
> > wise
> > physically slow
> > mentally fast
> > nice
> > friendly,at times
> > always social
> > and alway looking for a nonlethal way when possible
> >
>
> Can anyone say Bear? It seems perfect. :)

This is exactly what I was thinking. Bear is strong, physically slow, can be
wise or nice if need/want to be etc.

NightRain.

-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au

Message no. 143 John E Pederson said on 23:03/15 Sep 97...

[snip totem]
> What? Nothing about Carp-elemental spells? Where's Caric ...

Where did I put my write-ups of the Carp elemental effect and Carp
shaman...?

> John Pederson "Define 'irony': a bunch of idiots
> dancing
> aka Canthros, shapeshifter mage in the front of a plane to a tune by a
> group
> lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com who died in a plane crash."
> john.e.pederson@***********.edu --The Mangler,
> "ConAir"
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN
> 3190186

Your signature is a bit messed up, probably on account of being too wide
(even when I turn off the "Wrap long lines" option it looks like that).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Go see the profiteer
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 144 > What? Nothing about Carp-elemental spells? Where's Caric ...
>
> :)
yeah!!lets go for the carp effect!!!

Message no. 145 |I vote we make him a Woodchuck Shaman!

AAAAAAARGH!

####### ####### ####### ###
# # # # ###
# # # # ###
# # # # #
# # # #
# # # # ###
####### ####### # ###

|:]
|
|<grin>

;-p

<stuck out tongue>

|Bull
|
|P.S. YOu are still overiding the list Reply-To field. In your Options
|menu of your mail program, yu should have a spot to set your reply-to.
|Simply leave it blank. That might not do it, but usually will.

I see no reason why it shouldn't work...
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 146 > By George, I think he's got it! :]
>
> And it's just Bull... I'm not an Officer, just an Ork with WAY too much
> time on his hands...;] And who ALWAYS forgets to change the reply-to if
> it's screwed up, so mail goes to the wrong place...:]
>
> Everything looks good...;]
>

by officer I mean list officer.You,fade,and some of the other people on
the list who have been here longer than meare considered List officers.

Message no. 147 > >
> Caric has a new job that's keeping him busy and not giving him 8 hour a day
> e-mail access, so... he's a bit quieter than usual...:(
>
> However, the woodchuck doesn;t have the Mana-Carp spell, he is just less
> resistant to it. He gets -3 dice to resist it. however, since he LIKES
> the smell of wet, 1000 year old carp... Sort of makes the spell useless,
> doesn't it? :]

Hell no. I hate carp. Bzzzzraaaccckkkk. there goes the new persona you
had.Oh,did I mention thatI developed a crash persona spell that lets me
cast the spell in the matrix?

Message no. 148 |bull,How about this.Everything Should be in order,officer bull.
|

WTF is this in reply to?
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 149 |What? Nothing about Carp-elemental spells? Where's Caric ...

Or a severe allergy to the "Staff of *ZOT*"?????

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 150 |And it's just Bull... I'm not an Officer, just an Ork with WAY too much
|time on his hands...;]

Ahem... Orc?

The next book FASA releases should read

Bull
The best WENDIGO decker you never be....

:)

Yep... Finally seen Target UCAS.
(Not bought it... Yet.. But I flicked through it in the shop)

Nice to know I've got my head screwed on properly....
:)
(Despite the horrible fake 'merkin accent in one of the thingies...)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 151 |by officer I mean list officer.You,fade,and some of the other people on
|the list who have been here longer than meare considered List officers.
|

So... That would make Bull, Tinner, Fro, etc 1st or 2nd Leutenants, me a
captain, and Gurth (and a couple of others) Brigadier...

With Rob Hayden as Field Marshal then, would it?
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 152 -------_------__---__--___--__--___--___--___---__--___--__---__---__--__
--When I'm God everyone dies
-----------___---__---__---__----_---__---__---__---___---__---__---__---_

On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, Q (not from Star Trek) wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, Tyrell Hughes wrote:
>
> > What is the best totem for a shamanic(totemic?)adept?cause I cant make
> > up my mind,and I need some help choosing.with the totems,if it isnt in
> > the SRII rulebook,send the bonuses,Careteristics,and disadvantages.
> > thank you.
>

I suggest you pick an animal your shaman would admire, and play it.
Chances are it is in the Grimoire or Awakenings. If you need stats, e-mail
me.

Metal Phoenix

Message no. 153 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Brett Borger said:
>Strong: Lion, Gator, Wolf, Bear. Very few are anti-strong
>Wise: Owl, Cat, Moon, Eagle
>Physically Slow: Gator (is this by choice or body?)
>Mentally Fast: NOT gator. Cat, Owl, Rat, Racoon
>Nice: Dog.
>Friendly: At times, everybody. More often Dog, Bear,Snake.
>Always Social: Dog.
>Always looking Non-lethal. Dog, Snake.

You have a much different view of Snake than I do. "Friendly" and
"Non-lethal"? I guess some people have a sort of cuddly mental image
of a snake. I (and I think most) have a mental picture more like the
cobras in Rikki Tikki Tavi. Especially the bit about "If you move, I
strike. If you do not move, I strike."

Shadowrun's version of Snake is closer to this view than friendly and
non-lethal. I've played a Snake, and have since run into several
others. I always consider Snake shamans to be the most dangerous
non-toxic shamans around. This is not because of their bonuses or
combat ability, but because of their mentality. I belive the SR book
uses the phrase "cold manipulator". Snakes tend to be icy and
secretive. They are also deal makers. Some snakes make good, if not
entirely trustworthy, fixers. I've seen Snakes only use healing magic
for profit, even on teammates.

On the other hand, snakes in nature have a wider range of
"personalities" than many other totems. Black bears and polar bears
are pretty much the same, but there is a huge difference between the
"philosphies" of fanged snakes versus constrictors. Snake (the totem)
encompasses all of these aspects, so there is probably a wider
personality variation in Snake shamans than in most other totems
(apart from Dog, maybe).

As far as the stereotype goes though, I'd take Snake out of the
"Friendly" and "Looking Non-Lethal" categories and add it to
"Wise"
and "Mentally Fast".

Wordman
http://pobox.com/~wordman
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Message no. 154 Spike wrote:
|
| |by officer I mean list officer.You,fade,and some of the other people on
| |the list who have been here longer than meare considered List officers.
| |
|
| So... That would make Bull, Tinner, Fro, etc 1st or 2nd Leutenants, me a
| captain, and Gurth (and a couple of others) Brigadier...

So I would be a Colonel? Cool :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

Message no. 155 > You have a much different view of Snake than I do. "Friendly" and
> "Non-lethal"? I guess some people have a sort of cuddly mental image
> of a snake. I (and I think most) have a mental picture more like the
> cobras in Rikki Tikki Tavi. Especially the bit about "If you move, I
> strike. If you do not move, I strike."
...
He did say Friendly...at times.
...
> Shadowrun's version of Snake is closer to this view than friendly and
> non-lethal. I've played a Snake, and have since run into several

As I understand it, Shadowrun's Snake is based off of a medley of
Native American cultures' opinion of Snake. While I'm pretty
uninformed, I was of the impression that this medley regarded snake
as a brother to Mankind. While inhuman, not inhumane. Snake is,
after all, a Healer. I saw a study once where they said that the
rate of snakebite in areas of Indian reservations (this study was
fairly old, note) was far less than in so called civilized areas. A
few people investigated and finally said that it was because the
Amerinds displayed no real fear of snakes, while the others (New
Americans? What would you call them?) tended to either freeze, or to
bolt, not to mention pumping a fair amount of fear into the air.

Of course, I saw this second hand (I've also heard that Native
Americans aren't as bothered by heights) and it could very well be
inaccurate, wrong, refering to specific tribe only, or ust plain
slander. I claim no expertise whatsoever.

But then again, Shadowrun's view of Snake may be from just the same
sources, be they wrong or right.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie

Message no. 156 >> How about you describe yourself some, in simple terms, at most 12 >>
things, like the Boy Scouts try and do (the corporate scouts from >>
Fuchi have 15 to 17 to follow). This way helping you pick a totem >>
might be easier.

>ok here goes:
>Strong
>wise
>physically slow
>mentally fast
>nice
>friendly,at times
>always social
>and alway looking for a nonlethal way when possible

Leviathan, Gator and (especially) Wyrm come to mind.

Bio-Hazard

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Message no. 157 Spike wrote:
>
> |I vote we make him a Woodchuck Shaman!
>
> AAAAAAARGH!

whats this about? tell me the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Message no. 158 >
> So... That would make Bull, Tinner, Fro, etc 1st or 2nd Leutenants, me a
> captain, and Gurth (and a couple of others) Brigadier...
>
> With Rob Hayden as Field Marshal then, would it?

Absolutely.Officer Spike

Message no. 159 > I suggest you pick an animal your shaman would admire, and play it.
> Chances are it is in the Grimoire or Awakenings. If you need stats, e-mail
> me.

cant I just tell you on the list?

Message no. 160 > Leviathan, Gator and (especially) Wyrm come to mind.
>

what is the stuff for leviathon and wyrm? Will you dump them on the
list?Please???

Message no. 161 At 05:35 PM 9/16/97 -0500, Tyrell Hughes wrote:
#> Leviathan, Gator and (especially) Wyrm come to mind.
#>
#
#what is the stuff for leviathon and wyrm? Will you dump them on the
#list?Please???

That sort of info should really be sent private e-mail, if you're the only
one interested, rght?
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

Message no. 162 In a message dated 97-09-14 16:47:31 EDT, elfman@*****.net writes:

> What is the best totem for a shamanic(totemic?)adept?cause I cant make
> up my mind,and I need some help choosing.with the totems,if it isnt in
> the SRII rulebook,send the bonuses,Careteristics,and disadvantages.
> thank you.
>
I for one wouldn't want to answer without knowing more about what kind of
personality you wanted for the character in question, PC or NPC. All of them
are good, it's all in the roleplay.
-K
(my personal favorites are Creator (Germany Sourcebook) and Spider (Bug City)

Message no. 163 In a message dated 97-09-15 14:38:06 EDT, elfman@*****.net writes:

> > How about you describe yourself some, in simple terms, at most 12 things,
> > like the Boy Scouts try and do (the corporate scouts from Fuchi have 15
to
> 17
> > to follow). This way helping you pick a totem might be easier.
>
> ok here goes:
> Strong
> wise
> physically slow
> mentally fast
> nice
> friendly,at times
> always social
> and alway looking for a nonlethal way when possible
>
Okay then, MY response ... Snake (Urban). In this case, it would give
bonuses to Spirits of Man (City or Field, opinions could vary). Snake can be
lethargic, but when it does respond it does so with intensive power and raw
power.

Snake is a powerful entity, if you go beyond the view of SR, and wish to
encorporate material to "color up" the game a bit, Snake is as old as the
Invae (bug spirits), and possibly older. It has many manifestations,
including, but not restricted to ... Damballah Wedo (Voodoun), Oshunmare'
(Rainbow Serpent of Africa/Australia), Serpent (British Isles).

The only other option "I" can come close to would be Gator, but they are
rarely socialable and almost always respond in a "lethal" manner.
-K

Message no. 164 On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:34:47 -0500 Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
writes:
>>
>> ok here goes:
>> Strong
>> wise
>> physically slow
>> mentally fast
>> nice
>> friendly,at times
>> always social
>> and alway looking for a nonlethal way when possible
>>
>
>Can anyone say Bear? It seems perfect. :)

Almost perfect. Bear takes his time in allthings, including thought. He
will spend a great amount of time pondering things to make sure that the
action he is attempting isn't flawed in some unforeseen way. Other than
that, it fits.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could
lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook quote.

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Message no. 165 On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:56:41 EST Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:
>
>Okay, breakdown:
>
>Strong: Lion, Gator, Wolf, Bear. Very few are anti-strong
>Wise: Owl, Cat, Moon (Check to see if your GM allows Moon as
>non-druidic...oh wait, we're looking at main book only), Eagle

I'd include Bear and Snake as wise ones.

>Physically Slow: Gator (is this by choice or body?)

Ummm, pass the drugs? You ever seen a gator moving? An alligator is
capable of breaking residential speed limits. The can move at about 30
miles per hour for a short period of time on land, and they move like
greased lightning in the water. Physically slow would be Bear, and if the
shaman's a male, then Lion (you ever seen a male lion run? That's 'cause
they don't. =) )

>Mentally Fast: NOT gator. Cat, Owl, Rat, Racoon (Few want to say they
are dumb).

Also, include Coyote and Snake.

>Nice: Dog.
>Friendly (at times): At times, everybody. More often Dog, Bear, Snake.
>Always Social: Dog.
>Always looking Non-lethal. Dog, Snake.

Ummm, barring really pissing off Bear, he will usually try and find a
peaceful solution. Just don't make him mad. =)

>Going by these, I'd take a look at Dog. But then, 7 traits or so may
>not give me a good idea. Read the Roleplaying section on Dog and see
>if it matches what you feel your character is like. Remember that
>some leeway is possible.

Yeah, that'd probably be the best overall choice, but I felt compelled to
include what I did.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could
lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook quote.

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Message no. 166 > Ummm, barring really pissing off Bear, he will usually try and find a
> peaceful solution. Just don't make him mad. =)
>
> >Going by these, I'd take a look at Dog. But then, 7 traits or so may
> >not give me a good idea. Read the Roleplaying section on Dog and see
> >if it matches what you feel your character is like. Remember that
> >some leeway is possible.
>
> Yeah, that'd probably be the best overall choice, but I felt compelled to
> include what I did.

but these all suck. I want an awakened totem or A hawai'ian or Azzie
totem. can you change your train of thought?

Message no. 167 At 17:20 9/16/97 -0500, you wrote:
>> I suggest you pick an animal your shaman would admire, and play it.
>> Chances are it is in the Grimoire or Awakenings. If you need stats, e-mail
>> me.
>
>cant I just tell you on the list?

Buy or borrow the damn books. SRII and Grimoire and both old enough so you
can probably find used copies, and Awakenings is getting that way too.
Post up a sign at your gaming store if you need them and don't want to pay
the price for a new book.

This list is *not* for throwing around stats for copyrighted FASA items.
(Or any comprighted items, for that matter.)

-Adam

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/channel

Message no. 168 At 08:23 PM 9/16/97 -0500, Tyrell Hughes wrote these timeless words:
>> Ummm, barring really pissing off Bear, he will usually try and find a
>> peaceful solution. Just don't make him mad. =)
>>
>> >Going by these, I'd take a look at Dog. But then, 7 traits or so may
>> >not give me a good idea. Read the Roleplaying section on Dog and see
>> >if it matches what you feel your character is like. Remember that
>> >some leeway is possible.
>>
>> Yeah, that'd probably be the best overall choice, but I felt compelled to
>> include what I did.
>
>but these all suck. I want an awakened totem or A hawai'ian or Azzie
>totem. can you change your train of thought?
>
One simple question:

WHY?

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
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"Whoever invented solataire is one sadistic son of a bitch"
-- Me, after spending 2 hours trying to win a game

Message no. 169 Spike wrote:
|
| |by officer I mean list officer.You,fade,and some of the other people
on
| |the list who have been here longer than meare considered List
officers.
| |
|
| So... That would make Bull, Tinner, Fro, etc 1st or 2nd Leutenants, me
a
| captain, and Gurth (and a couple of others) Brigadier...
|

I guess that leaves Paolo and Myself as the doddering old Colonels, who
only
occasionally mumble something from the comfort of their wheelchairs.
<smirk>

"Where are my teeth, cane and tapioca?!? I have lurking to do!"

==============================================================
The Kumquat -- Josh Brown -- Kumquat@*****.com -- Spamquat@****.com --
Shadowrun Page Still Under Development -- Coming Soon!
"Support Whirled Peas" -- <smirk> -- "Whatever, Man" --
"Woo Hoo!" --
....Don't hate me Because I'm... ahh, screw it, hate me. <smirk>

Message no. 170 > | |by officer I mean list officer.You,fade,and some of the other people on
> | |the list who have been here longer than meare considered List officers.
> | |
> |
> | So... That would make Bull, Tinner, Fro, etc 1st or 2nd Leutenants, me a
> | captain, and Gurth (and a couple of others) Brigadier...
>
> So I would be a Colonel? Cool :)

And that would put me as a One-and-a-Halfth Lieutenant, since I've been
on the list for about six months longer than Bull and Tinner... :)

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
"No more drugs for that man!" - Dietrich, Face/Off
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 171 Lady Jestyr wrote:
>
> > | |by officer I mean list officer.You,fade,and some of the other people on
> > | |the list who have been here longer than meare considered List officers.
> > | |
> > |
> > | So... That would make Bull, Tinner, Fro, etc 1st or 2nd Leutenants, me a
> > | captain, and Gurth (and a couple of others) Brigadier...
> >
> > So I would be a Colonel? Cool :)
>
> And that would put me as a One-and-a-Halfth Lieutenant, since I've been
> on the list for about six months longer than Bull and Tinner... :)
>
> Lady Jestyr

So hmmmm that would make me a Lt. Colonelm I joined not to long after
Bull. So if Lady J's over Bull and Tinner. Hmmm that would make her a
Colonel. With the upper ranks like below.

Mark= Commander in Chief
Gurth= General
DVixen= Lt. General
Fro= Brigadier General

Message no. 172 On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:23:49 -0500 Tyrell Hughes <elfman@*****.NET>
writes:
>
>but these all suck. I want an awakened totem or A hawai'ian or Azzie
>totem. can you change your train of thought?

Okay, we've got a winner here! I suggest you go find a bear in the woods
and tell him that he "sucks". I'd also suggest that you decide on what
kind of totem you want yourself, since you're being pretty obvious about
the fact that you want a character with a lot of power - hence the reason
you asked about totems with more than 2 bonuses for spell types. I'd
wager that you picked a Shamanic Adept because they have the least
restrictions and it allows you to place Resources at priority A. I'm
sorry, but with each passing e-mail from you, I'm finding it harder and
harder to pay attention to you, as you seem to be a candidate for
Munchkin of the Year.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could
lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook quote.

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Message no. 173 On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:22:43 -0400 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:
>
>One simple question:

>WHY?

One simple answer: He's in the running for the Munchkin of the Year
award!!! If you aren't lurking on ShadowTK, I'll also mention that he
managed to break 5 list rules in his first post.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could
lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook quote.

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Message no. 174 NightLife said on 2:44/17 Sep 97...

> So hmmmm that would make me a Lt. Colonelm I joined not to long after
> Bull. So if Lady J's over Bull and Tinner. Hmmm that would make her a
> Colonel.

Aren't you missing a few ranks, like Captain and Major perhaps, not to
mention getting the order of several others mixed up?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zijn generatie twijfelt, maar weet niet eens waaraan.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 175 |> So... That would make Bull, Tinner, Fro, etc 1st or 2nd Leutenants, me a
|> captain, and Gurth (and a couple of others) Brigadier...
|>
|> With Rob Hayden as Field Marshal then, would it?
|
|Absolutely.Officer Spike
|

Or in REAL LIFE....

HALLIWELL! RECRUIT! 24966924! SIR!
(Got my number through last night.....)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 176 |what is the stuff for leviathon and wyrm? Will you dump them on the
|list?Please???
|

Not too sure about Leviathon, but Wyrm is in the London Sourcebook as a
Druidic Totem. (I think it's duplicated in Awakenings)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 177 > One simple question:
>
> WHY?

Because i have played ALL of the regular totems.

Message no. 178 George H Metz wrote:
>
> On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:23:49 -0500 Tyrell Hughes <elfman@*****.NET>
> writes:
> >
> >but these all suck. I want an awakened totem or A hawai'ian or Azzie
> >totem. can you change your train of thought?
>
> Okay, we've got a winner here! I suggest you go find a bear in the woods
> and tell him that he "sucks". I'd also suggest that you decide on what
> kind of totem you want yourself, since you're being pretty obvious about
> the fact that you want a character with a lot of power - hence the reason
> you asked about totems with more than 2 bonuses for spell types. I'd
> wager that you picked a Shamanic Adept because they have the least
> restrictions and it allows you to place Resources at priority A. I'm
> sorry, but with each passing e-mail from you, I'm finding it harder and
> harder to pay attention to you, as you seem to be a candidate for
> Munchkin of the Year.
>

wreong.the shaman has less restrictions than the shaman.and Actually I
just want to be a dragon shaman.Or something like that.

Message no. 179 |And that would put me as a One-and-a-Halfth Lieutenant, since I've been
|on the list for about six months longer than Bull and Tinner... :)

No such thing as half a pip... 2nd Lieutenant Jestyr....
(Not in the army anyway....)

And here.... Have this medal for actions for shadowrun beyond the call of
duty....

:)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 180 |> So hmmmm that would make me a Lt. Colonelm I joined not to long after
|> Bull. So if Lady J's over Bull and Tinner. Hmmm that would make her a
|> Colonel.
|
|Aren't you missing a few ranks, like Captain and Major perhaps, not to
|mention getting the order of several others mixed up?

I already give myself a captaincy, and then they started jumping over my
rank....

Gits...

:)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 181 > I'd include Bear and Snake as wise ones.

Okay.

> >Physically Slow: Gator (is this by choice or body?)
>
> Ummm, pass the drugs? You ever seen a gator moving? An alligator is
> capable of breaking residential speed limits. The can move at about 30
> miles per hour for a short period of time on land, and they move like

Yeah, yeah. But (Both in the book and in reality) they don't do this
all the time. They move slowly, cuz their ain't much worth moving
for. (now, when they want, they can MOVE, but as a general rule...)

> >Mentally Fast: NOT gator. Cat, Owl, Rat, Racoon (Few want to say they
> are dumb).
>
> Also, include Coyote and Snake.

Right, and Not Bear.

> >Nice: Dog.
> >Friendly (at times): At times, everybody. More often Dog, Bear, Snake.
> >Always Social: Dog.
> >Always looking Non-lethal. Dog, Snake.
>
> Ummm, barring really pissing off Bear, he will usually try and find a
> peaceful solution. Just don't make him mad. =)

Point. As the original guy said. Friendly (At times).

> >Going by these, I'd take a look at Dog. But then, 7 traits or so may
>
> Yeah, that'd probably be the best overall choice, but I felt compelled to
> include what I did.

S'okay. Nitpicking is what this list is about :)

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie

Message no. 182 > but these all suck. I want an awakened totem or A hawai'ian or Azzie
> totem. can you change your train of thought?
>
Suck? Suck how? Given the right character, Snake, Bear, and Dog (I
think these were the given suggestions) can all be wonderful totems.
What are you looking for that "doesn't suck?"

Anyway, in the terms of other totems, um....

Hawai'ian totems: NeNe and Gecko are the only ones I remember, and
neither one seems to be what you are looking for.

Azzie: So many of them are useful in Azzieland only.

Awakened: Perhaps Pegasus?

I'm really unsure of what you are looking for. What you should be
looking for is a personality that you mesh with. (or rather that
your character meshes with)

Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie

Message no. 183 At 05:34 AM 9/17/97 EDT, George H Metz wrote these timeless words:
>On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:22:43 -0400 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:
>>
>>One simple question:
>
>>WHY?
>
>One simple answer: He's in the running for the Munchkin of the Year
>award!!!
>
Hehe... I don;t know... i think Gweedo's little buddy managed to win that
one already... Or was that Twit of the Year? (No offense Gweedo. You
shaped up nicely... But your buddy Ripclaw has the distinction of being
the first intentional flame from me, as well as being the only person I've
ever seened Banned froma mailing list:))

>If you aren't lurking on ShadowTK, I'll also mention that he
>managed to break 5 list rules in his first post.
>
Hehe

YOu shoulda been around for Invasion Force...;] We had about 15 people all
trying to figure out the rules at once.,..:]

Boy did we piss off that list...:] But some goos stuff happened from it
all...;]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Whoever invented solataire is one sadistic son of a bitch"
-- Me, after spending 2 hours trying to win a game

Message no. 184 At 06:30 AM 9/17/97 -0500, Tyrell Hughes wrote these timeless words:
>> One simple question:
>>
>> WHY?
>
>Because i have played ALL of the regular totems.
>
I'm impressed. You certainly went through enough character... How long do
these characters last in your games?? I've had one major character for
over 4 years now!

Try playing another class! Do something different!

And if you've done it all, go play another game for a while... You need a
break...

Bull-the-I-thought-*I*-was-bad-Ork-Decker
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Whoever invented solataire is one sadistic son of a bitch"
-- Me, after spending 2 hours trying to win a game

Message no. 185 On 17 Sep 97 at 10:10, Bull wrote regarding Tyrell:

> I'm impressed. You certainly went through enough character... How long do
> these characters last in your games?? I've had one major character for
> over 4 years now!
>
> Try playing another class! Do something different!
>
> And if you've done it all, go play another game for a while... You need a
> break...

Well, his attitude so far has me thinking he is a munchkin. Which
probably means he's been through that many characters, because
munchkins get bored easy. Either that, or his GM has dropped many
cows on him.

Not only do I wish he would play a different game, I wish he would
find a different list.

--

===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net===
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
================================================================
The name is Baud......, James Baud.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 186 Drekhead wrote:
Well, his attitude so far has me thinking he is a munchkin. Which
probably means he's been through that many characters, because
munchkins get bored easy. Either that, or his GM has dropped many
cows on him.

........................................................................
........................................................................
...........
Interesting little tidbit :-]

Raining Cats and Cows???

According to Reuters, the dazed crew of a Japanese trawler was
plucked out of the Sea of Japan earlier this year clinging to the
wreckage of their sunken ship. Their rescue was followed by immediate
imprisonment once authorities questioned the sailors on their ship's
loss. To a man they claimed that a cow, falling out of a clear blue sky,
had struck the trawler amidships, shattering its hull and sinking the
vessel within minutes. They remained in prison for several weeks, until
the Russian Air Force reluctantly informed Japanese authorities that the
crew of one of its cargo planes had apparently stolen a cow wandering at
the edge of a Siberian airfield, forced the cow into the plane's hold
and hastily taken off for home. Unprepared for live cargo, the Russian
crew was ill-equipped to manage a frightened cow rampaging within the
hold. To save the aircraft and themselves, they shoved the animal out of
the cargo hold as they crossed the Sea of Japan at an altitude of 30,000
feet.

Victor

Message no. 187 On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:10:23 -0400 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:
>At 05:34 AM 9/17/97 EDT, George H Metz wrote these timeless words:
>>On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:22:43 -0400 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:
>>>
>>>One simple question:
>>
>>>WHY?
>>
>>One simple answer: He's in the running for the Munchkin of the Year
>>award!!!
>>
>Hehe... I don;t know... i think Gweedo's little buddy managed to win
that
>one already... Or was that Twit of the Year? (No offense Gweedo. You
>shaped up nicely... But your buddy Ripclaw has the distinction of being
>the first intentional flame from me, as well as being the only person
I've
>ever seened Banned froma mailing list:))

Ouch. That's almost as bad as the guy who's in the lead for twit of the
year on the local BBS scene.... =)

> >If you aren't lurking on ShadowTK, I'll also mention that he
>>managed to break 5 list rules in his first post.
>
>YOu shoulda been around for Invasion Force...;] We had about 15 people
all
>trying to figure out the rules at once.,..:]

OOH! OOH!! Story!!!! =) Do tell....

>Boy did we piss off that list...:] But some goos stuff happened from it
>all...;]

I'll just assume you meant good when you said goos and leave it at that.
=)

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could
lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook quote.

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Message no. 188 At 12:58 PM 9/17/97 +0100, you wrote:
>|So hmmmm that would make me a Lt. Colonel I joined not to long after
>|Bull. So if Lady J's over Bull and Tinner. Hmmm that would make her a
>|Colonel. With the upper ranks like below.
>
>Superiority complex at work????

And your point is what?

>|Mark= Commander in Chief.... I'd say a little less. Rob Hayden should be
>that on reflection.
>
>Mark: Field Marshal

Hayden isn't here anymore.

>|Gurth= General
>|DVixen= Lt. General
>
>|Fro= Brigadier General????
>
>Just 'cos he's assistant fearless leader? I'm not having him jump THAT far
>ahead of us old(er) timers....

You're taking this a bit to seriously. Spike ambassador to the world. Any
particular reason you sent this to me personally?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I summon the unholy demons of Apathy, Sarcasm and Cynicism!!

Wally from the Dilbert comics

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Message no. 189 George Metz wrote:
>I'm sorry, but with each passing e-mail from you, I'm finding it harder and
>harder to pay attention to you, as you seem to be a candidate for
>Munchkin of the Year.
>
I often find myself at odds with Wolfstar's postings, so with a stunned
expression, I just shake my head vigorously "yes".

Cynner -

Message no. 190 Bull said on 10:10/17 Sep 97...

> I'm impressed. You certainly went through enough character... How long do
> these characters last in your games?? I've had one major character for
> over 4 years now!

Maybe the game he plays in are like some **&* games I've been told about
by one of my players -- it seems his characters almost never lasted for
more than one or two sessions because the other players have a tendency of
killing each other. Which makes me wonder why they keep playing together,
but since I don't know them I won't bother thinking about it ;)

> Try playing another class! Do something different!
>
> And if you've done it all, go play another game for a while... You need a
> break...

Definitely. Find another group to play with a few times, that tends to
give you a better perspective on the things your original group is doing
right and wrong, IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zijn generatie twijfelt, maar weet niet eens waaraan.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 191 |>|Mark= Commander in Chief.... I'd say a little less. Rob Hayden should be
|>that on reflection.
|>
|>Mark: Field Marshal
|
|Hayden isn't here anymore.

He founded the list, and still pops his head 'round the door once in a
while.

Don't forget, the Commander in Chief of the British army is the QUEEN.
And she doen't actually take an active part in the army. (Apart from the odd
parade... Which is a bit like Rob sticking his head 'round the door)..

|>|Gurth= General
|>|DVixen= Lt. General
|>
|>|Fro= Brigadier General????
|>
|>Just 'cos he's assistant fearless leader? I'm not having him jump THAT far
|>ahead of us old(er) timers....
|
|You're taking this a bit to seriously. Spike ambassador to the world. Any
|particular reason you sent this to me personally?

I did?
I think your reply-ro field must be cocked up then, because I followed
exactly the same procedure I do for all my posts (i.e. Hit reply).
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 192 Spike said on 12:39/18 Sep 97...

> |Hayden isn't here anymore.
>
> He founded the list, and still pops his head 'round the door once in a
> while.
>
> Don't forget, the Commander in Chief of the British army is the QUEEN.
> And she doen't actually take an active part in the army. (Apart from the odd
> parade... Which is a bit like Rob sticking his head 'round the door)..

So does that make Hayden the queen of this list? (Perhaps that's not even
that far from the truth, if you know what other lists he ran, or perhaps
still runs, I don't know... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zijn generatie twijfelt, maar weet niet eens waaraan.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 193 > > | |by officer I mean list officer.You,fade,and some of the other people
on
> > | |the list who have been here longer than meare considered List
officers.
> > | |
> > |
> > | So... That would make Bull, Tinner, Fro, etc 1st or 2nd Leutenants, me
a
> > | captain, and Gurth (and a couple of others) Brigadier...
> >
> > So I would be a Colonel? Cool :)
>
> And that would put me as a One-and-a-Halfth Lieutenant, since I've been
> on the list for about six months longer than Bull and Tinner... :)

Interesting. I've been here (on and off) for about a year longer than Bull.
But he gets all the glory :(

Guess I have to learn to post more OT messages

NightRain.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au

Message no. 194 Bull did so write the following
> Hehe... I don;t know... i think Gweedo's little buddy managed to win that
> one already... Or was that Twit of the Year? (No offense Gweedo. You
> shaped up nicely... But your buddy Ripclaw has the distinction of being
> the first intentional flame from me, as well as being the only person I've
> ever seened Banned froma mailing list:))

Gweedo's off the list Bull. He unsubscribed not that long ago. He had to
much off a workload or something.

NightRain.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au

Message no. 195 >I did?
>I think your reply-ro field must be cocked up then, because I followed
>exactly the same procedure I do for all my posts (i.e. Hit reply).
>

Nope. My reply to field hasn't changed since I installed this program early
on in in Spring 97. Must have been one of those wonky things that creep into
the list sometimes. ;-)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I summon the unholy demons of Apathy, Sarcasm and Cynicism!!

Wally from the Dilbert comics

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Message no. 196 Fisher, Victor wrote:
>
> Drekhead wrote:
> Well, his attitude so far has me thinking he is a munchkin. Which
> probably means he's been through that many characters, because
> munchkins get bored easy. Either that, or his GM has dropped many
> cows on him.

wrong,just a lot of panzers with silenced engines, and hover capability.

Message no. 197 Brett Borger wrote:
>
> > but these all suck. I want an awakened totem or A hawai'ian or Azzie
> > totem. can you change your train of thought?
> >
> Suck? Suck how? Given the right character, Snake, Bear, and Dog (I
> think these were the given suggestions) can all be wonderful totems.

Your right,come to think of it. Please thwap me.

> What are you looking for that "doesn't suck?"

Sonething exotic...

> Anyway, in the terms of other totems, um....
>
> Hawai'ian totems: NeNe and Gecko are the only ones I remember, and
> neither one seems to be what you are looking for.

what is the stuff for nene

> Azzie: So many of them are useful in Azzieland only.
>
> Awakened: Perhaps Pegasus?
>
> I'm really unsure of what you are looking for. What you should be
> looking for is a personality that you mesh with. (or rather that
> your character meshes with)

maybe dragon

Message no. 198 Drekhead wrote:
>
> On 17 Sep 97 at 10:10, Bull wrote regarding Tyrell:
>
> > I'm impressed. You certainly went through enough character... How long do
> > these characters last in your games?? I've had one major character for
> > over 4 years now!
> >
> > Try playing another class! Do something different!
> >
> > And if you've done it all, go play another game for a while... You need a
> > break...
>
> Well, his attitude so far has me thinking he is a munchkin. Which
> probably means he's been through that many characters, because
> munchkins get bored easy. Either that, or his GM has dropped many
> cows on him.
>
> Not only do I wish he would play a different game, I wish he would
> find a different list.
>

I AM NOT A MUNCHIKIN.my Game master is a sadistic Sonafabitch who likes
finding new wayes to kill my shamans.

Message no. 199 Bull wrote:
>
> At 06:30 AM 9/17/97 -0500, Tyrell Hughes wrote these timeless words:
> >> One simple question:
> >>
> >> WHY?
> >
> >Because i have played ALL of the regular totems.
> >
> I'm impressed. You certainly went through enough character... How long do
> these characters last in your games?? I've had one major character for
> over 4 years now!

About 4 sessions.My Gm decide that if I used a silence spell,it worked
both ways. He Is always forcing me to use the same spell,and then he
kills my charector.

Message no. 200 Tyrell Hughes <elfman@*****.NET> wrote:

> Drekhead wrote:
(snip)
> > munchkins get bore
> > Not only do I wish he would play a different game, I wish he would
> > find a different list.
> >
>
> I AM NOT A MUNCHIKIN.my Game master is a sadistic Sonafabitch who likes
> finding new wayes to kill my shamans.
>
>

Hey, this proves more than anything your high-class muchkidom. Only
losers with minimal rp skill would accept playing with "sadistics
SOBs", as you so eloquetly said. Please, I subscribed here to hear
(uh..read, even) the opinions of fellow SR roleplayers on diverse
matters, not to hear your lame power-ranting. Hell, I've been
playing the same character for the past 2 1/2 years, so I guess I
ain't close to your superb "bodycount".

Hey, My first post, and it's a flame... great... ;)

Frank Pelletier

-------------------------------------------
|Jeanpell@****.qc.ca |
|IRC handle: Trinity |
-------------------------------------------

Message no. 201 At 04:30 PM 9/19/97 -0500, Tyrell Hughes wrote these timeless words:

>> I'm really unsure of what you are looking for. What you should be
>> looking for is a personality that you mesh with. (or rather that
>> your character meshes with)
>
>maybe dragon
>
There currently is no Dragon Totem... And I think that Dragons would get a
little upset if tehre was...:]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Whoever invented solataire is one sadistic son of a bitch"
-- Me, after spending 2 hours trying to win a game

Message no. 202 At 07:27 18/09/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Brett Borger wrote:
>>
>> > but these all suck. I want an awakened totem or A hawai'ian or Azzie
>> > totem. can you change your train of thought?
>> >
>> Suck? Suck how? Given the right character, Snake, Bear, and Dog (I
>> think these were the given suggestions) can all be wonderful totems.
>
>Your right,come to think of it. Please thwap me.
>
>
ok

th
thwa
thwapth <---1000 YEAR OLD CARP
thwapthwa
thwapthwapth
thwapthwapthwa
thwapthwapthwapt
thwapthwapthwapthw
thwapthwapthwapthwapt
thwapthwapth thwapthw
thwapthwpath wapthwap
thwapthwapthwa wapthwapth
thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwa
(thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwap)
thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapth
thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthw
thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthw
apthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapt
ththwpthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwthwap
apthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwap
thwapthwapth thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwa hwapthwapth
thwapthw thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthw thwapthwap
thwap thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthw thwap
thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapt
thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwa
thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapth
thwapthwapthwapthwapthwa
thwapthwapthwapthwapth
thwapthwapthwapthwap
thwapthwapthwapth
thwapthwapthwpt
thwapthwapthw
thwapthwapt
thwapthwa
thwapth
thwap
thw
thwap
thwapth
thwapthwap
thwapthwapth
thwapthwapthwap
thwapthwapthwapth
thwapthwapthwapthwa
thwapthwapthwapthwapt
thwapth thwapthw
thwapt thwapth
thwa thwa
thw thw
th th

Dernhelm

Is this reality? If so, then I prefer insantiy

Message no. 203 On Fri, 19 Sep 1997 17:57:04 +0000 Frank Pelletier
<jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA> writes:
>Hey, this proves more than anything your high-class muchkidom. Only
>losers with minimal rp skill would accept playing with "sadistics
>SOBs", as you so eloquetly said. Please, I subscribed here to hear
>(uh..read, even) the opinions of fellow SR roleplayers on diverse
>matters, not to hear your lame power-ranting. Hell, I've been
>playing the same character for the past 2 1/2 years, so I guess I
>ain't close to your superb "bodycount".

Oh, come one - give the guy a break. We can't always choose who we play
with.
And to cut someone down for no other reason than to cut them down is poor
taste... not to mention worthless.

~Tim (how many argumentative fallacies did he committ in that paragraph?)

Message no. 204 At 19-Sep-97 wrote Frank Pelletier:

>Hey, this proves more than anything your high-class muchkidom. Only
>losers with minimal rp skill would accept playing with "sadistics
>SOBs", as you so eloquetly said. Please, I subscribed here to hear
>(uh..read, even) the opinions of fellow SR roleplayers on diverse
>matters, not to hear your lame power-ranting. Hell, I've been
>playing the same character for the past 2 1/2 years, so I guess I
>ain't close to your superb "bodycount".

>Hey, My first post, and it's a flame... great... ;)

Wellcome Frank.

But I give you right, Tyrell is anoying in his way as
some people already had posted.
but to call somebody a munchkin without knowing him personaly,
or at last for a long time here is IMO not a good way to indruduce
hisself, as you have already sense for yourself.
I find his constant lose of characters as bad as most of the people
on the list.
And my main character is in game for over six years now.

--
Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Evil Overlord advice #17:

When I employ people as advisors, I will occasionally listen to
their advice.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 205 At 19-Sep-97 wrote Tyrell Hughes:

>Your right,come to think of it. Please thwap me.

As you wish

##### # # # # ## #####
# # # # # # # # #
# ###### # # # # # #
# # # # ## # ###### #####
# # # ## ## # # #
# # # # # # # #

>Sonething exotic...

Swan, Phoenix, Elvis Priest?

--
Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Evil Overlord advice #17:

When I employ people as advisors, I will occasionally listen to
their advice.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 206 At 19-Sep-97 wrote Tyrell Hughes:

>About 4 sessions.My Gm decide that if I used a silence spell,it worked
>both ways. He Is always forcing me to use the same spell,and then he
>kills my charector.

Then its maybe not your fault, ever considered to kick the GM out?
Its not the duty of the GM to kill the characters for his pleasure.

--
Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Evil Overlord advice #17:

When I employ people as advisors, I will occasionally listen to
their advice.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 207 Tyrell Hughes said on 16:27/19 Sep 97...

> wrong,just a lot of panzers with silenced engines, and hover capability.

How do you silence the engine of a GMC Banshee?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zijn generatie twijfelt, maar weet niet eens waaraan.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 208 On Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:06:55 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>Tyrell Hughes said on 16:27/19 Sep 97...
>
>> wrong,just a lot of panzers with silenced engines, and hover
>capability.
>
>How do you silence the engine of a GMC Banshee?

Lots and lots of cotton balls:)

Canthros

Message no. 209 Barbie said on 11:50/20 Sep 97...

> Then its maybe not your fault, ever considered to kick the GM out?
> Its not the duty of the GM to kill the characters for his pleasure.

Are you sure? I was having a pretty good time killing off PCs right and
left yesterday night...

Oh wait, you were talking about SR, not Paranoia... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zijn generatie twijfelt, maar weet niet eens waaraan.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 210 >
> >Hey, this proves more than anything your high-class muchkidom. Only
> >losers with minimal rp skill would accept playing with "sadistics
> >SOBs", as you so eloquetly said. Please, I subscribed here to hear
> >(uh..read, even) the opinions of fellow SR roleplayers on diverse
> >matters, not to hear your lame power-ranting. Hell, I've been
> >playing the same character for the past 2 1/2 years, so I guess I
> >ain't close to your superb "bodycount".

I just wanted you to know that my Gamemaster is the muchie not me.and he
s been kicked out by the entire group.

> Wellcome Frank.
>
> But I give you right, Tyrell is anoying in his way as
> some people already had posted.
> but to call somebody a munchkin without knowing him personaly,
> or at last for a long time here is IMO not a good way to indruduce
> hisself, as you have already sense for yourself.
> I find his constant lose of characters as bad as most of the people
> on the list.
> And my main character is in game for over six years now.
>
thank you Barb.I just cant find another Gm,soo,Im taking over for my
group.I play fair,give bothsides fair chances ,and dont play with
munchkins.We kicked the old GM oout because he was a munchkin and liked
killing shamans That tried to be non-lethal and who played by the rules.

Message no. 211 Barbie wrote:
>
> At 19-Sep-97 wrote Tyrell Hughes:
>
> >About 4 sessions.My Gm decide that if I used a silence spell,it worked
> >both ways. He Is always forcing me to use the same spell,and then he
> >kills my charector.
>
> Then its maybe not your fault, ever considered to kick the GM out?
> Its not the duty of the GM to kill the characters for his pleasure.

Did it just today!!!whoopee. Im GM now And I play fair.

Message no. 212 > ok
>
> th
> thwa
> thwapth <---1000 YEAR OLD CARP
> thwapthwa
> thwapthwapth
> thwapthwapthwa
> thwapthwapthwapt
> thwapthwapthwapthw
> thwapthwapthwapthwapt
> thwapthwapth thwapthw
> thwapthwpath wapthwap
> thwapthwapthwa wapthwapth
> thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwa
> (thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwap)
> thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapth
> thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthw
> thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthw
> apthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapt
> ththwpthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwthwap
> apthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwap
> thwapthwapth thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwa hwapthwapth
> thwapthw thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthw thwapthwap
> thwap thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthw thwap
> thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapt
> thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwa
> thwapthwapthwapthwapthwapth
> thwapthwapthwapthwapthwa
> thwapthwapthwapthwapth
> thwapthwapthwapthwap
> thwapthwapthwapth
> thwapthwapthwpt
> thwapthwapthw
> thwapthwapt
> thwapthwa
> thwapth
> thwap
> thw
> thwap
> thwapth
> thwapthwap
> thwapthwapth
> thwapthwapthwap
> thwapthwapthwapth
> thwapthwapthwapthwa
> thwapthwapthwapthwapt
> thwapth thwapthw
> thwapt thwapth
> thwa thwa
> thw thw
> th th
>
Thank you.I have now come back to my senses.

Message no. 213 Tim Cooper wrote:
>
> On Fri, 19 Sep 1997 17:57:04 +0000 Frank Pelletier
> <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA> writes:
> >Hey, this proves more than anything your high-class muchkidom. Only
> >losers with minimal rp skill would accept playing with "sadistics
> >SOBs", as you so eloquetly said. Please, I subscribed here to hear
> >(uh..read, even) the opinions of fellow SR roleplayers on diverse
> >matters, not to hear your lame power-ranting. Hell, I've been
> >playing the same character for the past 2 1/2 years, so I guess I
> >ain't close to your superb "bodycount".
>
> Oh, come one - give the guy a break. We can't always choose who we play
> with.
> And to cut someone down for no other reason than to cut them down is poor
> taste... not to mention worthless.
>
Tim,thanks. We have kicked out our gm and now i am in control of the
game, and we get along better without him.

Message no. 214 John E Pederson wrote:
>
> On Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:06:55 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
> >Tyrell Hughes said on 16:27/19 Sep 97...
> >
> >> wrong,just a lot of panzers with silenced engines, and hover
> >capability.
> >
> >How do you silence the engine of a GMC Banshee?
>
> Lots and lots of cotton balls:)
>

Or:so much armor over the place where the engine noise comes out,
combined with a silence spell Does the trick nicely.

Message no. 215 On Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:13:57 -0400 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:
>
>There currently is no Dragon Totem... And I think that Dragons would
get a
>little upset if there was...:]

Actually, there is, sort of. Welsh Wyrm Shamans (as well as myself,
personally, and in game) refer to Wyrm as Dragon, due to the Welsh flag.
The reason I personally refer to it as such, is because it fits my
perception, and I LIKE anything that says I have to sleep 10 hours a day.
=)

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook
quote.

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Message no. 216 >> I'm impressed. You certainly went through enough character... How long do
>> these characters last in your games?? I've had one major character for
>> over 4 years now!
>
>About 4 sessions.My Gm decide that if I used a silence spell,it worked
>both ways. He Is always forcing me to use the same spell,and then he
>kills my charector.
>

Then if you feel like you're getting screwed. FInd another group. Don't sit
there if you're not having fun or being picked on.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I summon the unholy demons of Apathy, Sarcasm and Cynicism!!

Wally from the Dilbert comics

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Message no. 217 on 20.09.97 elfman@*****.NET wrote:

e> > >How do you silence the engine of a GMC Banshee?
e> >
e> > Lots and lots of cotton balls:)
e> >
e>
e> Or:so much armor over the place where the engine noise comes out,
e> combined with a silence spell Does the trick nicely.

The place the engine noise comes out is the engine. If you close it, you
won't fly anywhere (You don't close the intakes and turofans of a jet to
make it more silent, do you?)
BTW, adding more armor makes the 'bird more heavy, which means you need
more power, which makes the 'bird loader.
The silence spell, OTOH, will work fine.

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
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Message no. 218 on 20.09.97 gurth@******.NL wrote:

g> > Then its maybe not your fault, ever considered to kick the GM out?
g> > Its not the duty of the GM to kill the characters for his pleasure.
g>
g> Are you sure? I was having a pretty good time killing off PCs right and
g> left yesterday night...
g>
g> Oh wait, you were talking about SR, not Paranoia... :)

Remindes me: There was a text about a Paranoia LARP in some RPGzine I was
last week. Imagine that: Paranoia live! I guess the GMs have quite some
fun letting people fall into elevator shafts.

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 219 All this talk about totems makes me wonder three Questions.
(these are shaman only questions.All you hermetic people stay out.To
keep you out i'll use a wyrm grin.:=<>
1) What is your favorite totem?(mine is Wyrm.)
2)Which totem(excluding toxic and insect totems) has the most potential
to be used for evil ?
3)What is the weirdest totem out there ?

Message no. 220 At 11:37 PM 12/30/97 -0600, you wrote:
>All this talk about totems makes me wonder three Questions.
>(these are shaman only questions.All you hermetic people stay out.To
>keep you out i'll use a wyrm grin.:=<>
>1) What is your favorite totem?(mine is Wyrm.)

Hmmm..... I'd have to say Wolf and Frog from WW#30

>2)Which totem(excluding toxic and insect totems) has the most potential
>to be used for evil ?

Depends on what you mean by evil. For just sheer meaness try Tiger the
version with the really twisted berserking disad. For just plain beating up
on people the toxic version of Dragon Slayer might do the job.

>3)What is the weirdest totem out there ?

The Yeast Totem from one of Gurth's Plastic Warriors books.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Message no. 221 See "From Dusk Till Dawn" and you'll get it...

> What it gives you, after a fashion, is an adept who's inobvious in
> Astral space: you have to clear through all the barriers to actually
> finally see him. That seemed to be the crux of your problem -- how to
> get a mage or submage past the PC party -- rather than how to make
> someone invisible in the Astral.

Wrong. I wanted a PC not to look like a freak on the astral.

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 222 At 12:36 AM 1/2/98 -0500, losthalo wrote these timeless words:
>At 06:31 AM 1/2/98 +0000, you wrote:
>>Hmm... Priests of Elvis that believe Elvis rides on the Comet?
>>;P
>
>"Elvis isn't dead, he just went home!"
> -MIB
>
>Sorry, that's my fluff post for 1998. I love that line.
>
Sure... Like tehre won;t be anymore outta you...:]

This segue's nicely into another idea I wanted to run past you guys, though...

I picked up the MiB RPG the other day (Half price, how could I resist :)).
The system isn;t bad, since it's WEG's D6 system, and after running Star
Wars for a long time, it's simple to figure out :]

The game itself isn;t bad, Not necessarily something you really needed to
buy a game book for, but still, not a bad book.

A Couple things I really liked though, and I don;t know if this is
something WEG uses in all their d6 stuff or not (It's not in Star Wars),
were their rules for "Cue Cards" and for Chase Scenes.

Cue Cards are basically something you, as GM (

Message no. 223 Good evening list,

Curious as to what totems you folks like playing. Also, for the Gm's out
there how do you penalize players who do things that is totaly against how a
shaman should act according to the totem, like an aggresive rat shaman, or a
cowardly shark.

Also, wilderness totems in urban setting, was curious for examples that
players have come up with as to why there elk shaman, for example, lives and
runs in a plex.

Good day and good playing

Anduin
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Message no. 224 At 11:22 PM 3/18/01 -0800, you wrote:
>Good evening list,
>
>Curious as to what totems you folks like playing. Also, for the Gm's out
>there how do you penalize players who do things that is totaly against how
>a shaman should act according to the totem, like an aggresive rat shaman,
>or a cowardly shark.

After the first transgression a warning dream is appropriate. The second
time a reduction of one of their bonus die. Third another reduction in a
bonus, then another penalty added to third list is they have one and a
penalty of 1 to every action. Fourth infraction a severe warning dream with
a now penalty of 2. Fifth time your lose a magic rating. After that you're
now a mundane.

>Also, wilderness totems in urban setting, was curious for examples that
>players have come up with as to why there elk shaman, for example, lives
>and runs in a plex.

A good reason is to set up a area where they could find comfort, say buying
a small bit of land and restoring it.

Message no. 225 one of my favorite characterswas a aspected shark shaman. he stole a boat
from a jamaican drug lord that he was working for in kingston, then fled to
seattle...increase reflexes 3 spell with sustaining focus and a good
monowhip active skill...he was deadly...damn, i should bring him
back...heheheheheheh

>From: "aaron spivey" <oldblackleather@*******.com>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Totems
>Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 23:22:53 -0800
>
>Good evening list,
>
>Curious as to what totems you folks like playing. Also, for the Gm's out
>there how do you penalize players who do things that is totaly against how
>a
>shaman should act according to the totem, like an aggresive rat shaman, or
>a
>cowardly shark.
>
>Also, wilderness totems in urban setting, was curious for examples that
>players have come up with as to why there elk shaman, for example, lives
>and
>runs in a plex.
>
>Good day and good playing
>
>Anduin
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>

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Message no. 226 > Curious as to what totems you folks like playing.

Snake.

> Also, for the Gm's out there how do you penalize
> players who do things that is totaly against how a
> shaman should act according to the totem, like
> an aggresive rat shaman, or a cowardly shark.

Not totally on point, but a story I wrote sort of details how my shaman
"interacted" with Snake.

http://bhopal.flashpt.com/internet/nagee.nsf/docs/tess

Wordman

Message no. 227 On Sun, 18 Mar 2001 23:22:53 -0800, aaron spivey wrote:

>Good evening list,
>
>Curious as to what totems you folks like playing.

Wolf, Raccoon and Raven are my favorites, though I haven't had a chance
to try the alternate totems/systems given in Magic in the Shadows yet.

>Also, wilderness totems in urban setting, was curious for examples that
>players have come up with as to why there elk shaman, for example, lives and
>runs in a plex.

Running in the 'plex isn't that big a deal, though the shaman may be
highly uncomfortable there. However, I wouldn't let them *live* there
without losing their totem benefits temporarily. After all, it just feels
unnatural to them... I'd at least have them move into an apartement in a
sparsely populated and heavily wooded/appropriate terrained suburb.

Message no. 228 >> Curious as to what totems you folks like playing.
For,almost three years I played a wolf physad(silvermane if any of you knew him),but he
was a danm munchkin so he got killed off a while back,right now im playing a ghoul vulture
physad in ravenflock's chicago campain

>> Also, for the Gm's out there how do you penalize
>> players who do things that is totaly against how a
>> shaman should act according to the totem, like
>> an aggresive rat shaman, or a cowardly shark.
When,silvermane started acting up and defying his totem(he resented being magically
active) Phil went as far as to get a free spirit (at least thats what I think it was) to
banish his totem and turn him into a regular adept.

Darren,kobold master chef.

=any toddlers about i want to practice my visscitude

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Message no. 229 >When,silvermane started acting up and defying his totem(he resented being
>magically active) Phil went as far as to get a free spirit (at least thats
>what I think it was) to banish his totem and turn him into a regular adept.

Silvermane always defied the Wolf. He just started pissing me off :)>.
Banishing the wolf Spirit was a plot device and an attempt to change
Silvermane's outlook ("I have a katanna" :)>), not a (direct) result of him
hating the wolf.

Phil

It used to be that when I came home angry or depressed I would just clean my
condo, polish my nice scandinavian furniture. I should have been looking
for a new condo. I should have been haggling with my insurance company. I
should have been upset about my nice neat flaming little shit. But I
wasn�t.
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Message no. 230 > Not totally on point, but a story I wrote sort of details how my
shaman "interacted" with Snake.

> http://bhopal.flashpt.com/internet/nagee.nsf/docs/tess
> Wordman

I liked that a lot, Wordman. Very interesting take on issues that
usually aren't associated with magicians at all, i.e. cyber and
decking. Good stuff!

-Boondocker

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Message no. 231 You guys have a pretty different view of totems then I do. I think that
character would have pretty much been hauled away in an ambulance, and he
would have needed to make a new character in my game.

-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
[mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.com]On Behalf Of Phil Smith
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 12:14 PM
To: shadowrn@*********.com
Subject: RE: Totems

>When,silvermane started acting up and defying his totem(he resented being
>magically active) Phil went as far as to get a free spirit (at least thats
>what I think it was) to banish his totem and turn him into a regular adept.

Silvermane always defied the Wolf. He just started pissing me off :)>.
Banishing the wolf Spirit was a plot device and an attempt to change
Silvermane's outlook ("I have a katanna" :)>), not a (direct) result of him
hating the wolf.

Phil

It used to be that when I came home angry or depressed I would just clean my
condo, polish my nice scandinavian furniture. I should have been looking
for a new condo. I should have been haggling with my insurance company. I
should have been upset about my nice neat flaming little shit. But I
wasn�t.
_________________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 232 --- "Michael Webb" <phage97@****.com>
> wrote:
>You guys have a pretty different view of totems then I do. I think that
>character would have pretty much been hauled away in an ambulance
Why?(altough it should be said that silvermanes totem was not quite what it apeared to
be,it was more like a powerful spirit that had been forced to look after him)

Darren,kobold master chef.

=any toddlers about i want to practice my visscitude

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Message no. 233 Because they aren't "forced" to look after him, they pick him.... at least
that's how I handle it. (Why would it be "forced" to? I don't even get why
you would want to look at it that way.)

-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
[mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.com]On Behalf Of Darren Gilliver
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 3:06 PM
To: shadowrn@*********.com
Subject: RE: Totems

--- "Michael Webb" <phage97@****.com>
> wrote:
>You guys have a pretty different view of totems then I do. I think that
>character would have pretty much been hauled away in an ambulance
Why?(altough it should be said that silvermanes totem was not quite what it
apeared to be,it was more like a powerful spirit that had been forced to
look after him)

Darren,kobold master chef.

=any toddlers about i want to practice my visscitude

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Community</a></center>
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Message no. 234 --- "Michael Webb" <phage97@****.com>
> wrote:
>Because they aren't "forced" to look after him, they pick him.... at least
>that's how I handle it. (Why would it be "forced" to? I don't even get why
>you would want to look at it that way.)
>look after him)

Well,it was a bit of a special case we had just done the harequins back adventures and
since silvermane was a bit boring to play phil threw a whole bunch of really wierd magical
backstory for silvermane at me that was connected to what happened to silvermane in the
metaplanes.Basically it went something like this,Silvermanes father was possesed by a free
spirit before he was born,this led to silvermane being a little wierd magic wise.(i know
it's a bit of a strech but like i said,silvermane was a bit of a muchkin anyway)A free
spirit that was an enemy of silvermanes father tried to destroy him and his family,in the
resulting chaos silvermanes father bound a powerful nature spirit to silvermane and got
him as far away from japan as he could.Silvermane grew up not knowing any of this,and
resenting the totem that tried to control most of what he did.Later silvermane loses an
arm and almost dies,in a near death experience he has a vision of harlequin who reveals to
him all about his totem,and since silvermane helped harlequin out,he returns the favor by
keeping him alive,but at the cost of his totems freedom.

Well hope that wasn't to boring for ya'

Darren,kobold master chef.

=any toddlers about i want to practice my visscitude

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Message no. 235 --- Michael Webb <phage97@****.com> wrote:
> Because they aren't "forced" to look after him, they pick him....
at least that's how I handle it. (Why would it be "forced" to? I
don't even get why you would want to look at it that way.)

Different strokes fer different folks, I guess. If it were my
campaign that character wouldn't get in the door, but it ain't my
campaign :) What you do in the privacy of your own house (rules) is
your business, eh? :)

-Boondocker

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Message no. 236 In a message dated 3/19/01 2:24:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
oldblackleather@*******.com writes:

> Good evening list,
>

How did you know it was evening? Are you watching me?
::loads the rifles::

> Curious as to what totems you folks like playing.

Currently have a Gecko Sorcerer. It's a ported over illusionist, so it seemed
to fit well.
I generally prefer Owl, Wind, Raven.

> Also, for the Gm's out
> there how do you penalize players who do things that is totaly against how
a
> shaman should act according to the totem, like an aggresive rat shaman, or
a
> cowardly shark.
>

Depends on the severity, but it'd have to be something truely heretical to
warrant reprisal. A magic point here or there, or an initiate level that
disappears. Hmm, what if their totem took them on a metaquest, if they lost,
they lose their magic? :-)
If it gets bad, there are rules forchanging totems.

> Also, wilderness totems in urban setting, was curious for examples that
> players have come up with as to why there elk shaman, for example, lives
and
> runs in a plex.
>

Depends on the area of the plex too. There are plenty of places in Seattle to
be all naturalistic, and I prefer to keep the SS border pretty fluid, so they
could live in the nearby woods.

Message no. 237 On Sun, 18 Mar 2001 23:22:53 -0800 "aaron spivey"
<oldblackleather@*******.com> writes:
> Good evening list,
>
> Curious as to what totems you folks like playing.

Let's see, I've played shamans that follow Spider and Cat. Additionally,
I've played druids that followed Sun and Moon. (All IIRC)

> Also, for the Gm's
> out
> there how do you penalize players who do things that is totaly
> against how a
> shaman should act according to the totem, like an aggresive rat
> shaman, or a
> cowardly shark.

Never been an issue. :)

> Also, wilderness totems in urban setting, was curious for examples
> that
> players have come up with as to why there elk shaman, for example,
> lives and
> runs in a plex.

Depends. The favored environment doesn't mean that the shaman must live
in that environment. It means that their shamanic lodge can only be in
such an environment. That means wilderness lad, follower of elk, may be a
naturalist neo-hippie in the city with digs outside of town. :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 238 -----Original Message-----
From: aaron spivey <oldblackleather@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Monday, March 19, 2001 5:27 PM
Subject: Totems

>Good evening list,
>
>Curious as to what totems you folks like playing. Also, for the Gm's out
>there how do you penalize players who do things that is totaly against how
a
>shaman should act according to the totem, like an aggresive rat shaman, or
a
>cowardly shark.
>
>Also, wilderness totems in urban setting, was curious for examples that
>players have come up with as to why there elk shaman, for example, lives
and
>runs in a plex.
>

I like Dog, it is the ideal totem for shadowrunners because he is loyal,
protects the weak, and is the sworn enemy of corruption.
It hasn't come up in any of my games, it is usually enough to just say "You
wouldn't act that way, you're a tickbird shaman", but if it did, and the
player ignored warnings like summoned spirits being aggressive and contrary
and target numbers for spells being higher, I'd say the totem stopped
talking to the character and leave them without magic for a few days. If
suddenly being mundane doesn't do it, maybe while being ignored by the great
Tickbird in the sky, Pygmy Hippo would replace it as the character's totem
since Pygmy Hippo is closer to the character's behavior.

Message no. 239 > Also, for the Gm's
> out
> there how do you penalize players who do things that is totaly
> against how a
> shaman should act according to the totem, like an aggresive rat
> shaman, or a
> cowardly shark.

On those few occasions that a shaman started doing things I felt his totem
would be strongly against, a number of things happened. One was, his totem
left him for awhile immediately after the act. (He lost his powers for a day
or so.) On a more serious occasion, when a snake aspected shaman
purposefully caused the destruction of a huge natural habitat, killing
almost every animal (including snakes) within dozens of miles, the same
thing happened, but worse. His powers were gone til his totem was satisfied
that he truly regretted what he did, and he was plagued with nightmares and
hallucinations, until he eventually became psychotic. (The character became
an NPC. He couldn't find a way to make it up to his totem.)

> Also, wilderness totems in urban setting, was curious for examples
> that
> players have come up with as to why there elk shaman, for example,
> lives and
> runs in a plex.

My feeling has been that a totem connection is generally based on where the
character grew up in the past, more then where he is now. That means a
character who grew up in a different environment, might have a totem that
looks pretty weird based on where he is now, because he moved. We had a wolf
shaman who lived in the big cities, drawn there by some old debts, but he
grew up in the habitat of wolves.

Made perfect sense to me.

--
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Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 240 >From: "Michael Webb" <phage97@****.com>
>You guys have a pretty different view of totems then I do. I think that
>character would have pretty much been hauled away in an ambulance, and he
>would have needed to make a new character in my game.

I guess that comes down to my GMing style; as fun as it is to do the whole
"I'm the GM and this is how its going to go, or you die." I try to do as
much as I can to push the character towards something me and the player can
agree on. If a player is not having fun they will stop playing, which will
leave the GM, for all his or her God-like in-game power, without any
players. I'd rather have a game full of players having fun than run a
dictatorship where the players' limbs fall off if they step out of line.

A big problem with Silvermane was the fact that I inherited the cmapaign
from the last GM, so I was never in on the ground floor when it came to
characters. If I was, Silvermane would have been pretty different character
from the start and blowing his arm off, banishing his totem and all the
messing about with him in order to make him more interesting would not have
been necessary.

Phil

I�ve seen in fight club the strongest and smartest men that ever lived. I
see all this potential and I see it squandered. Godammit, an entire
generation pumping gas, waiting tables, slaves with white collars.
Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes. Working jobs we hate so we can
buy shit we don�t need. We�re the middle children of history, no purpose or
place. We have no great war, no great depression, our great war is a
spiritual war, our great depression is our lives. We�ve all been raised by
television to believe that one day we�ll all be rock stars and billionares
and movie gods. But we won�t, and we are slowly learning that fact, and we
are very pissed off.
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Message no. 241 --- Scott W <see_scott_run@*****.com>
> wrote:
> Different strokes fer different folks, I guess. If it were my
>campaign that character wouldn't get in the door, but it ain't my
>campaign :) What you do in the privacy of your own house (rules) is
>your business, eh? :)
Well,he was the first character I ever made for any rpg so i've frogiven myself for him
(altough phil still has knightmares about that damn katana:)

Darren,kobold master chef

=any toddlers about i want to practice my visscitude

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Message no. 242 <html><DIV>Aaron spivey wrote:<BR><BR>> Good evening
list,<BR>> Curious as to what totems you folks like playing.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Mainly Dog or Raccoon shamans, occasionally Fox or Eagle.  Currently
playing a Gator shaman from New Orleans.  Plus I always take
the shapechange spell so that they can become their totem, ala the shapechanging shaman
legends of native american tribes.</DIV><br clear=all><hr>Get Your
Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at <a
href="http://www.hotmail.com">http://www.hotmail.com</a>.<br></p></html>;

Message no. 243 Mister Incognito wrote:

> Aaron spivey wrote:
>
> > Good evening list,
> > Curious as to what totems you folks like playing. Mainly Dog or
> Raccoon shamans, occasionally Fox or Eagle. Currently playing a Gator
> shaman from New Orleans. Plus I always take the shapechange spell so
> that they can become their totem, ala the shapechanging shaman legends
> of native american tribes
>
> Dont forget that shamans are affect by the Shamanic Mask.
>
> Bruce

Message no. 244 To Bashers and Flamers:

Sorry this is not a bash or flame of SR? or any source/adventure book.

My GM got married and moved away. Moving to another GM. I have a Totem that is not in the
book. Is there a formula or procedure for creating one? If not, would other people like
one? The way we played it before was the GM told me when there were advantages or
disadvantages. I did not know all of them.

The Totem is the Asian Lion-Dog. Any suggestions?

Robyn

Message no. 245 According to Edwards,Robyn M - TMS, on 07-04-2005 20:39 the word on the
street was...

> I have a Totem that is not in the book. Is there a formula or
> procedure for creating one?

No, sorry :)

> If not, would other people like one? The way we played it before was
> the GM told me when there were advantages or disadvantages. I did not
> know all of them.
>
> The Totem is the Asian Lion-Dog. Any suggestions?

That totem is not one from an official SR book, so you'll have to make
it up yourself. Let's start with what advantages and disadvantages you
do know, and hope that someone here has an idea of what an asian
lion-dog is supposed to be IRL :)

--
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Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
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Message no. 246 At 07:39 PM 4/7/2005, Robyn wrote:
> My GM got married and moved away. Moving to another GM. I have a
> Totem that is not in the book. Is there a formula or procedure for
> creating one? If not, would other people like one? The way we played it
> before was the GM told me when there were advantages or disadvantages. I
> did not know all of them.
>
> The Totem is the Asian Lion-Dog. Any suggestions?

As Gurth (IIRC) suggested, look at those which might have similar outlooks
- I'm afraid my knowledge of Chinese mythology is fairly limited and my
encyclopedia of world mythology is far from helpful but I would probably
start with Lion and Dog.
Dog is in the SR3 rules, Lion I think in MITS - though it might be in
NERPS: Shadowlore.
In fact... <checks> Nope, I'm afraid Lion-Dog isn't in NERPS... Nor is Lion
so it'll be in MITS - I know I've seen it.
Look at how the existing totems work, look at the Lion-Dog and his
attitudes... Most Totems have two (three depending on how you count them)
advantages and two disadvantages, the first of each being a spell type and
spirit type effect (+2 dice for detection spells and Storm Spirits for
example) while the other is more esoteric.
Keep in mind that this will effect Shamanists particularly and write the
totem for general use rather than for your character in particular - if
nothing else it keeps things balanced.
By the sound of it your GM may have been using Lion-Dog as a plot tool
rather than a true totem (suggested by the fact that you don't know all of
your advantages and disadvantages) so rewrite it from scratch rather than
trying to remember what you had advantages/disadvantages with.

--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Y PGP? t+@ 5++ X- R+>+++$>* tv b+++ DI++++ D+ G++ e+ h r* y+>+++++
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

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s+(+++) GM+++(-) A GS+(-) h++ LA+++ CG--- F c+

Message no. 247 Lone Eagle <loneeagle@********.co.uk> wrote:

>As Gurth (IIRC) suggested, look at those which might have similar outlooks
>- I'm afraid my knowledge of Chinese mythology is fairly limited and my
>encyclopedia of world mythology is far from helpful but I would probably
>start with Lion and Dog.

Wasn't there something similar in Awakenings, under the section on "Awakened
Totems"? I have a vague recollection of seeing Griffin, Phoenix, and something
oriental there.

Message no. 248 [snip]
> At 07:39 PM 4/7/2005, Robyn wrote:
>> My GM got married and moved away. Moving to another GM. I
>> have a Totem that is not in the book. Is there a formula or procedure
>> for creating one? If not, would other people like one? The way we
>> played it before was the GM told me when there were advantages or
>> disadvantages. I did not know all of them.
>>
>> The Totem is the Asian Lion-Dog. Any suggestions?
>

[snip]

Here is some info and a link which I found.

http://www.joelcooner.com/Asian/LionDogShrine.html

Koma Inu: Lion Dog Shrine Guardians

Pair of Japanese Temple Lions

Details:

Although the lion is native to southern Asia, as well as the plains of
Africa, its appearance in the art of Japan was originally limited to the
temple guardians and fantastic leonine mounts of various Buddhist
deities, particularly the bodhisattva Monju. As in many other cultures,
lions symbolized kingly power, particularly the supreme power of the
Buddha's wisdom. Indeed, they are said to guard Buddhism and defend its
laws.

The Japanese portrayal of these beasts was based on Chinese
depictions, hence the Japanese name karashishi or "Chinese lion," though
for the Chinese this creature was equally mysterious. Their
representation of lions was derived from Indian Buddhist examples which
were already stylized. Still, Chinese interpretations took on attributes
of native tigers and the Pekinese dog, which was the pride of the
Chinese Imperial family. They are characterized by large, imposing eyes,
curly mane and tail, spotted coat and their fierce yet playful demeanor.

Pairs of guardian lions are said to protect the Buddha's throne and
statues representing then have traditionally stood guard outside sacred
buildings and temple precincts. Indeed, the Japanese refer to these
guardian figures as koma inu implying "lion-dog guardian figures." As
their use became increasingly secularized, guardians were placed in
front of palaces, mansions and tombs, as well.

Similar to the anthropomorphic guardian figures known as nyo4, each
pair of koma inu is depicted one with mouth closed and the other with
mouth open, suggestive of the inhalation and exhalation of the heavenly
force and the inextricable balance of yin and yang.

IHTH.

Richard Swen

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