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Message no. 1
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:29:28 +1100 (EST)
Has any one come up with a formula for the
trajectory of a firearm round(s) falling outside It's
listed ranges or this already incorporated into the
game system with the range TN?,e.g. like firing at a
steep angle into the air having a large beaten
path/area or effect of a motar.
Preferable like rate of fall, decrease in energy etc.
not too much to ask from a bunch of smart guys like
yourselves, be as scientific or laymen in explanation
as you like , I'll adapt.

GZ

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Message no. 2
From: datwinkdaddy@*******.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 23:04:54 -0600
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Ennew" <robertennew@*****.com.au>


> Has any one come up with a formula for the
> trajectory of a firearm round(s) falling outside It's
> listed ranges or this already incorporated into the
> game system with the range TN?

I haven't but you bring up some other questions in my mind like:
How much power has a round lost at long or extreme range? Should there
be a power adjustment?
If not, shouldn't the deperate or expert be able to make shots beyond
the given ranges, with a power and TN adjustment?
Can't remember if this is in the rules or not: Is there a range
adjustment for gel rounds? Or do they not deform significantly more
than normal rounds? [I'm not sure what kind of pressure air/dust at
mach 1+ exerts.] What about tracers? Or does the burn not affect
their aerodynamics enough to matter?

What about thrown objects, surely a dwarf has lost a lot of forward
kenetic energy by the time he/she travels even a few meters?

> Preferable like rate of fall, decrease in energy etc.

Rate of fall should be the same as any object in freefall, unless the
round has some lift to it.
Decrease in energy would only be to wind resistance and air friction.

Da Twink Daddy
datwinkdaddy@*******.com
ICQ# 514984
Message no. 3
From: lordmountainlion@***.rr.com (Scott Peterson)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 02:20:06 -0700
I have somewhere a book on firearm desines. Handels weapon and ammunition
constructions. guns 3 I think it is. I know Gurth mentione dhe had it also.
Im not sure. i'll dig for it and fine\d out. If it becomes a project i'll
add it to the New revision of Tarot firearms. im still waiting for someone
to pointme to a url that has it. i dont hae the complete hardcopy
handwritten notes. cats got to them and well amoinateed them.

Scott
Message no. 4
From: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au (Damion Milliken)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 20:41:47 +1100
Scott writes:

> If it becomes a project i'll
> add it to the New revision of Tarot firearms. im still waiting for
someone
> to pointme to a url that has it. i dont hae the complete hardcopy
> handwritten notes. cats got to them and well amoinateed them.

I poked around on my hard drive and found the following file:
http://nosferatu.dhs.org/tarot.txt. I've no idea how recent or up-to-date it
might be, and it's only a text copy, but if nothing else turns up, it might
be useful.

--
Damion Milliken E-Mail: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au
---------------+----------------------------------+-----------------------
ICQ: 177734389 | MSN: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au | AIM/Y!: DamionMilliken
---------------+----------------------------------+-----------------------
Message no. 5
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:23:54 +0100
According to Scott Peterson, on Tuesday 04 March 2003 10:20 the word on the
street was...

> I have somewhere a book on firearm desines. Handels weapon and
> ammunition constructions. guns 3 I think it is. I know Gurth mentione
> dhe had it also. Im not sure.

You're probably talking about Guns! Guns! Guns!, or 3G3 for short. It's a
(more or less) universal weapon design system, published by BTRC, with
conversion rules for Shadowrun being around on the net.

> i dont hae
> the complete hardcopy handwritten notes. cats got to them and well
> amoinateed them.

Why do computer owners make hand-written notes anyway? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Monster zonder waarde
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:29:15 +0100
According to Robert Ennew, on Tuesday 04 March 2003 05:29 the word on the
street was...

> Has any one come up with a formula for the
> trajectory of a firearm round(s) falling outside It's
> listed ranges or this already incorporated into the
> game system with the range TN?

You could simply add, say, +4 to the TN for every doubling of the extreme
range. So using a hold-out to fire at someone between 50 and 100 m away
would have a +4 modifier, between 100 and 150 m would be +8, and so on. In
theory, you could roll a 53 and so hit someone at 600 m with that same
hold-out, but the chance of that happening when you need it is
sufficiently small that it doesn't matter, IMHO.

> e.g. like firing at a
> steep angle into the air having a large beaten
> path/area or effect of a motar.

That could be done by combining the method I just described, with the
suppressive fire rules.

> Preferable like rate of fall, decrease in energy etc.

Why bother with those, though? That would only be making things difficult
for yourself, if you ask me. By increasing the TN, the chance of rolling
multiple successes drops, and thereby also the chance of staging the
damage up. But if you want to decrease the base damage after all, I'd say
a -1 Power per "step" would do nicely.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Monster zonder waarde
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:23:43 +0200
Gurth wrote:
> You could simply add, say, +4 to the TN for every doubling of
> the extreme
> range. So using a hold-out to fire at someone between 50 and
> 100 m away
> would have a +4 modifier, between 100 and 150 m would be +8,
> and so on. In
> theory, you could roll a 53 and so hit someone at 600 m with
> that same
> hold-out, but the chance of that happening when you need it is
> sufficiently small that it doesn't matter, IMHO.

You would also need to reduce power and, ultimately, damage level over such
distances. However unlikely rolling that 53 may be, if the PC should get
lucky enough to do so, that doesn't change the fact that over such a
distance the round is traveling MUCH slower and will do significantly less
damage. The TN modifiers only relate to the degradation of the bullet's
flight arc.


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon


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Message no. 8
From: Shannon@*****.co.za (Shannon Buys)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:43:39 +0200
Stever Gerhard wrote:

You would also need to reduce power and, ultimately, damage level over such
distances. However unlikely rolling that 53 may be, if the PC should get
lucky enough to do so, that doesn't change the fact that over such a
distance the round is traveling MUCH slower and will do significantly less
damage. The TN modifiers only relate to the degradation of the bullet's
flight arc.
<snipt>
--------------------------------
Remember to take into acount the following situational modifiers:
- Air Humidity
This could influence the speed of the projectile due to increased friction
in the air with moisture and dust particles.

- Ambient Temperature
Bullets, guns, barrels etc are metal. Metal expands and contracts.
Expanded bullets will be larger and therefore slow down slightly more due to
wind resistance. However a larger projectile will more than likely do more
damage. A very very rough untrained estimate would be a
0.000000000000000021 increase/decrease in power in game terms due to size of
projectile due to expansion/contraction.

- Local wildlife
Gnats, mosquitos, flies, all present friction in the air toward a fast
moving projectile. A swarm of gnats may decrease the power once again by a
fraction. Mosquito's being larger could possibly double that (depending of
on course whether the mosquito had fed recently or not).

- Up/Down-drafts
Bullets moving between high buildings either upward or downward could affect
drop or elevation of projectiles. The formula would more than likely
require a conversion of the mass of air and it's speed into newton metres
and we would then have to work out it's amount of pressure(in Newton Meters)
on the bullet. Taking into account also the bullets shape and aerodynamics.

- Magnetic pull of the earth
The direction of a shot being fired could be ever so slightly influenced by
the poles of the earth's magnetic pull. We'd also have to factor in the
fact that magnetic north and true north are out by a few degrees.

I'm sure there are many more things to consider and we haven't even touched
on the effects of magic and paranormal on our shooters environment. Please
feel free to add.

- Plastic Rat
"Just play the game"
Message no. 9
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:44:42 +0200
Shannon Buys wrote:
> Steve Garrard wrote:
>
> You would also need to reduce power and, ultimately, damage
> level over such distances. However unlikely rolling that 53
> may be, if the PC should get lucky enough to do so, that
> doesn't change the fact that over such a distance the round
> is traveling MUCH slower and will do significantly less
> damage. The TN modifiers only relate to the degradation of
> the bullet's flight arc. <snipt>
> --------------------------------
> Remember to take into acount the following situational modifiers:
> - Air Humidity
> This could influence the speed of the projectile due to
> increased friction in the air with moisture and dust particles.
>
> - Ambient Temperature
> Bullets, guns, barrels etc are metal. Metal expands and
> contracts. Expanded bullets will be larger and therefore slow
> down slightly more due to wind resistance. However a larger
> projectile will more than likely do more damage. A very very
> rough untrained estimate would be a 0.000000000000000021
> increase/decrease in power in game terms due to size of
> projectile due to expansion/contraction.
>
> - Local wildlife
> Gnats, mosquitos, flies, all present friction in the air
> toward a fast moving projectile. A swarm of gnats may
> decrease the power once again by a fraction. Mosquito's
> being larger could possibly double that (depending of on
> course whether the mosquito had fed recently or not).
>
> - Up/Down-drafts
> Bullets moving between high buildings either upward or
> downward could affect drop or elevation of projectiles. The
> formula would more than likely require a conversion of the
> mass of air and it's speed into newton metres and we would
> then have to work out it's amount of pressure(in Newton
> Meters) on the bullet. Taking into account also the bullets
> shape and aerodynamics.
>
> - Magnetic pull of the earth
> The direction of a shot being fired could be ever so slightly
> influenced by the poles of the earth's magnetic pull. We'd
> also have to factor in the fact that magnetic north and true
> north are out by a few degrees.
>
> I'm sure there are many more things to consider and we
> haven't even touched on the effects of magic and paranormal
> on our shooters environment. Please feel free to add.

Uhh...yeah. Well if you want to take all those things into account on the
fly during combat, be my guest. IMO you've crossed the line of
"fussiness-for-the-sake-of-realism" into the realm of pure GM hell. :)


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon


**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.

www.mimesweeper.com
**********************************************************************
Message no. 10
From: Shannon@*****.co.za (Shannon Buys)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:01:28 +0200
Steve Gerhard wrote:

Uhh...yeah. Well if you want to take all those things into account on the
fly during combat, be my guest. IMO you've crossed the line of
"fussiness-for-the-sake-of-realism" into the realm of pure GM hell. :)

------------------
Aaah, just trying to figure out where the boundaries lie.... ;)

- Plastic Rat
"...but GM, deckers are such game hogs!"
Message no. 11
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:05:47 +0200
Shannon Buys wrote:
> Steve Gerhard wrote:
>
> Uhh...yeah. Well if you want to take all those things into
> account on the fly during combat, be my guest. IMO you've
> crossed the line of "fussiness-for-the-sake-of-realism" into
> the realm of pure GM hell. :)
>
> ------------------
> Aaah, just trying to figure out where the boundaries lie.... ;)

LOL I think you found them! :)

Oh BTW, any chance you could stop misspelling my name when you reply? It's
Garrard, not Gerhard. Forgive my fussiness ;)


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon


**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.

www.mimesweeper.com
**********************************************************************
Message no. 12
From: lordmountainlion@***.rr.com (Scott Peterson)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:36:10 -0700
From: "Damion Milliken" <DamionMilliken@*****.com.au>

> I poked around on my hard drive and found the following file:
> http://nosferatu.dhs.org/tarot.txt. I've no idea how recent or up-to-date
it
> might be, and it's only a text copy, but if nothing else turns up, it
might
> be useful.

Perfect!!!!! Was in pristine state minus the graphics. I had forgotten
exactly how much crap I had loaded into it. Now I got to update, readd
graphics and learn how to do it in adobe. Wonderful. Thank god Im retierd.

Scott
Message no. 13
From: lordmountainlion@***.rr.com (Scott Peterson)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:37:17 -0700
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>

> i dont hae
> the complete hardcopy handwritten notes. cats got to them and well
> amoinateed them.

Why do computer owners make hand-written notes anyway? :)

I didnthave a computer at the time, hank you very much. Its only been
around for 12 years or so.

Scott
Message no. 14
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 08:44:07 -0800
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:36:10 -0700
"Scott Peterson" <lordmountainlion@***.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Perfect!!!!! Was in pristine state minus the graphics. I had forgotten
> exactly how much crap I had loaded into it. Now I got to update, readd
> graphics and learn how to do it in adobe. Wonderful. Thank god Im
> retierd.
>
> Scott
>

Tarot Firearms had Graphics?
--Anders
Message no. 15
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 19:16:32 +0100
According to Shannon Buys, on Tuesday 04 March 2003 13:43 the word on the
street was...

> Remember to take into acount the following situational modifiers:
[snip]

Why do I have a feeling that post was tongue-in-cheek? :)

(Oh yeah, and you forgot the earth rotating underneath the bullet.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Monster zonder waarde
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: pgrosse@********.com (Paul Grosse)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:42:50 -0500
> From: Gurth [mailto:gurth@******.nl]
>
>
> According to Shannon Buys, on Tuesday 04 March 2003 13:43 the
> word on the
> street was...
>
> > Remember to take into acount the following situational modifiers:
> [snip]
>
> Why do I have a feeling that post was tongue-in-cheek? :)
>
> (Oh yeah, and you forgot the earth rotating underneath the bullet.)
>

Don't forget the planet's solar rotation, and the solar systems
rotation around the center of the galaxy, and the galaxy's rotation
around the local group's axis. And the ... :P

- Paul Grosse
Message no. 17
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 23:44:42 +0000
In article <20030304042928.17067.qmail@********.mail.yahoo.com>, Robert
Ennew <robertennew@*****.com.au> writes
> Has any one come up with a formula for the
>trajectory of a firearm round(s) falling outside It's
>listed ranges or this already incorporated into the
>game system with the range TN?,e.g. like firing at a
>steep angle into the air having a large beaten
>path/area or effect of a motar.

I tend to take the last range band and just keep adding +2s to the
target number for every increment of that, if you want to try really
long-range fire and insist on dicing it. (for instance an Assault Rifle
needs 9s to hit from 351-550m, so I say 11s to hit from 551-750, 13s
from 751-950...)

More often, discuss it with me and I wing it. Tripod-mounted MGs
conducting Map Predicted Fire can reach out a _long_ way but the effect
is most like suppressive fire... you take your chances if you move
through the beaten zone.



--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 18
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 23:51:04 +0000
In article <BFEDKADNKHPBJAHDDBGCGEKGCHAA.Shannon@*****.co.za>, Shannon
Buys <Shannon@*****.co.za> writes
>I'm sure there are many more things to consider and we haven't even touched
>on the effects of magic and paranormal on our shooters environment. Please
>feel free to add.

Magnus Effect.

Angle of fire (trajectory changes for upslope/downslope rounds)

Barrel wear and temperature (is this a cold-barrel shot? How worn is the
barrel? Tank gunnery computers apply corrections for every shot fired to
cover wear...)

Propellant temperature and age.

Crosswinds all the way downrange.

Bullet shape and composition.

Where the bullet goes subsonic (has a nasty effect on accuracy)



Precision fire with unguided projectiles is _difficult_.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 19
From: 520074903613-0001@********.de (Thorger_SÃŒnert)
Subject: trajectory & fall
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 09:14:14 -0000
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shannon Buys" <Shannon@*****.co.za
> - Magnetic pull of the earth
> The direction of a shot being fired could be ever so slightly influenced
by
> the poles of the earth's magnetic pull. We'd also have to factor in the
> fact that magnetic north and true north are out by a few degrees.

Just by around 180° :)

MfG Thorger Sünert

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