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Message no. 1
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:28:29 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Gryphon <webmaster@*********.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Saturday, November 11, 2000 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR


>on 11/10/00 2:43 PM, Nexx at nexx@********.net e-scribed:
>
>> However, when I play female characters, I don't concentrate on the fact
that
>> they're female, and simply play the character. My style is very
>> immersive... I get into character to the point where I'm practically
>> method-acting... so I develop the personality and outlook of the
character,
>> and then simply turn things over to her.
>
>I don't allow trans-gender PCs in my game. I know, I'm a fascist, but I've
>never met anyone who could play the opposite sex properly. Okay, one
>exception: a lesbian who played a rocker male very well--albeit
>occassionally annoying going on about real wood guitars....
>
I agree completely. As a teen I blew off my frustrations by playing the
megaslut warrior woman, but that's what D&D's for. As an adult, I have to
have very good reason for playing a female character, and I doubt I ever get
it totally right when I do. Basically I try for a lot like a man, but less
inclined to macho acts (and they're never megasluts any more). If I had a
dollar for every male player's character that was a gorgeous woman who was
also a nympho lesbian I've seen, I'd own the lot of you by now.
I did know a guy who played a mortal nun in a Vampire game very convincingly
though. It is possible.
Message no. 2
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:43:02 -0600
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cole, Wade A." <wcole@********.com>

> Speaking as the misogynist that I was, (not anymore, but I'm still
> pretty certain that women spend most of their time in the loony bin) then
> how would you play them? "...like a man, and then you take away
> accountability and reason?"

Loved that movie... and yes, Jack Nicholson's character reminds me quite a
bit of me in my off-periods.

However, when I play female characters, I don't concentrate on the fact that
they're female, and simply play the character. My style is very
immersive... I get into character to the point where I'm practically
method-acting... so I develop the personality and outlook of the character,
and then simply turn things over to her.

Morgan, for example, was pushy, but she understood people. She worked hard
to get the most out of her people (she was the commander of a small force of
Coalition troops), and regarded them as her responsibility (she actually
died drawing enemy fire, so the rest of the group could blast the sumbitch
who was rapidly moving through their ranks). She loved to dance, though she
didn't get much opportunity to do so, and certainly had an eye for men (and
was in a non-exclusive relationship with a party member).

Its simply a matter of divorcing yourself from the character... Morgan, or
Triath, or Hiroko, or whoever gets to be in charge during the game, and I
get to think about deadlines while they play.

***
Skald-Mark Mjöksiglandi
a.k.a. Nexx
a.k.a. Mark Hall
***
"If I lose the light of the sun, I will write by candlelight, moonlight, no
light. If I lose paper and ink I will write in blood on forgotten walls. I
will write always. I will capture nights all over the world and bring them
to you."
-Henry Rollins
***
http://www-personal.interkan.net/~nexx/index.html
Updated November 4th, 2000
Message no. 3
From: Andrew Gryphon webmaster@*********.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 00:02:26 -0600
on 11/10/00 2:43 PM, Nexx at nexx@********.net e-scribed:

> However, when I play female characters, I don't concentrate on the fact that
> they're female, and simply play the character. My style is very
> immersive... I get into character to the point where I'm practically
> method-acting... so I develop the personality and outlook of the character,
> and then simply turn things over to her.

I don't allow trans-gender PCs in my game. I know, I'm a fascist, but I've
never met anyone who could play the opposite sex properly. Okay, one
exception: a lesbian who played a rocker male very well--albeit
occassionally annoying going on about real wood guitars....

--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level
Message no. 4
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:13:30 -0600
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Gryphon" <webmaster@*********.com>

> I don't allow trans-gender PCs in my game. I know, I'm a fascist, but I've
> never met anyone who could play the opposite sex properly. Okay, one
> exception: a lesbian who played a rocker male very well--albeit
> occassionally annoying going on about real wood guitars....

Not everyone can, and I have a few players I certainly wouldn't allow it
to... but, then, I've frightened people by being mentally flexible before.
Message no. 5
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:11:58 GMT
>From: Andrew Gryphon <webmaster@*********.com>
>I don't allow trans-gender PCs in my game. I know, I'm a fascist,

Yes. Yes you are :)>

>but I've
>never met anyone who could play the opposite sex properly.

I think I do an okay job playing my female character, I'm certainly more
aware of her mindset and what she wants than with my male characters, and to
be honest I enjoy playing her a fair bit more.

Phil

Dying is an art like everything else.
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Message no. 6
From: Andrew Gryphon webmaster@*********.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 08:31:08 -0600
on 11/11/00 5:11 AM, Phil Smith at phil_urbanhell@*******.com can't deny
saying:

>> but I've
>> never met anyone who could play the opposite sex properly.
>
> I think I do an okay job playing my female character, I'm certainly more
> aware of her mindset and what she wants than with my male characters, and to
> be honest I enjoy playing her a fair bit more.

If a guy were happily married for, say, 7 or 8 years, maybe I'd allow it.
--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level
Message no. 7
From: Andrew Gryphon webmaster@*********.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 08:31:08 -0600
on 1/11/00 12:28 AM, Simon and Fiona at sfuller@******.com.au can't deny
saying:

> If I had a
> dollar for every male player's character that was a gorgeous woman who was
> also a nympho lesbian I've seen, I'd own the lot of you by now.
> I did know a guy who played a mortal nun in a Vampire game very convincingly
> though. It is possible.

I once played a transvestite necrophiliac in AD&D. We made a big deal about
chainmail skirts.
--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level
Message no. 8
From: Alexandre van Chestein havoc@*********.ca
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 10:51:07 -0500
> >on 11/10/00 2:43 PM, Nexx at nexx@********.net e-scribed:
> >
> >> However, when I play female characters, I don't concentrate on the fact
> that
> >> they're female, and simply play the character. My style is very
> >> immersive... I get into character to the point where I'm practically
> >> method-acting... so I develop the personality and outlook of the
> character,
> >> and then simply turn things over to her.
> >
> >Then Andrew Gryphon went:
> >
> >I don't allow trans-gender PCs in my game. I know, I'm a fascist, but I've
> >never met anyone who could play the opposite sex properly. Okay, one
> >exception: a lesbian who played a rocker male very well--albeit
> >occassionally annoying going on about real wood guitars....
> >
> Then Simon and Fiona typed:
>
> I agree completely. As a teen I blew off my frustrations by playing the
> megaslut warrior woman, but that's what D&D's for. As an adult, I have to
> have very good reason for playing a female character, and I doubt I ever get
> it totally right when I do. Basically I try for a lot like a man, but less
> inclined to macho acts (and they're never megasluts any more). If I had a
> dollar for every male player's character that was a gorgeous woman who was
> also a nympho lesbian I've seen, I'd own the lot of you by now.
> I did know a guy who played a mortal nun in a Vampire game very convincingly
> though. It is possible.

Actually, I think the only way to perfectly pull this off is to play a
character of your own gender that somehow gets transgendered along the way.
D&D had the Belt of Femininity/Masculinity, but in SR I've seen it happen with
serious chemical/biological reconstruction (or some high-power spells).
Either way, I find that's the most believeable way to roleplay it when it
happens -- it's much easier to roleplay a guy who became a girl (if you happen
to be male) than it is to roleplay a girl who was a girl to begin with. I
realize this isn't likely to happen (unless your characters gets someone so
pissed off at him he goes from wanting him dead to wanting him alive and
suffering), but I felt I had to mention it.

I've known some people who could pull off transgender roleplaying near
perfectly, and others who bombed it big-time (and others who pulled it off
so well it was genuinely FRIGHTENING in real life, and I mean it). I find
that net games are a much better environment for this kind of thing, as
nobody can see you on the other side of the keyboard, so as long as you
do your best, it often passes over well. Net gaming, while it may be slower
than RL games, does have the roleplay advantage -- it's much, much easier
to roleplay than in RL games.


Havoc out.


PS: Simon and Fiona, my mail proggie seems to read your emails as postmarked
from January, thus shunting them to the bottom of the list and making me hunt
for them. Is it because of a problem on your end, or is my mailer just going
nuts?
Message no. 9
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:16:54 -0500
On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:43:02 -0600 "Nexx" <nexx@********.net> writes:
> However, when I play female characters, I don't concentrate on the
> fact that
> they're female, and simply play the character. My style is very
> immersive... I get into character to the point where I'm practically
> method-acting... so I develop the personality and outlook of the
> character,
> and then simply turn things over to her.
>

For myself, each character is different. SOme PCs I just can't imagine as
being male, and some I can't imagine as being female. Gender means little
enough. I'd never play the "MegaSlut" but then, my male PCs don't go
around trying to get as much <insert current favorite term for sex> as
possible either.


> Morgan, for example, was pushy, but she understood people. She
> worked hard
> to get the most out of her people (she was the commander of a small
> force of
> Coalition troops), and regarded them as her responsibility (she
> actually
> died drawing enemy fire, so the rest of the group could blast the
> sumbitch
> who was rapidly moving through their ranks). She loved to dance,
> though she
> didn't get much opportunity to do so, and certainly had an eye for
> men (and
> was in a non-exclusive relationship with a party member).
>
>

One of my female PCs was also "Morgan" (though, no one seemed to recall
that was her streetname, not given name)
Mine was a violent, impatient sort though, a shaman of Badb(Crow) from
Steve Kenson's site (before he commited the horrendous error of deleting
the Celtic Totems for space, but it's okay, I'll forgive him) SHe had a
high charisma, since she was an elf, and for conjuring, but she was in no
way personable.

Scarriest part for the GM was a mission where the troll asked some
questions of a guard at a place we were breaking into. The guard was
rabidly anti-metahuman, so the troll left. So, I hid my ears Fashioned my
clothes into a miniskirt and went and got him to go out with me.
I was gonna torture him for information, but the game fell apart soon
after :-)

I've had a recurring character (PC and NPC) named Sylph in my games that
was also female, though she was more "normal" than Morgan.
(I have several recurring PCs in my games, started in AD&D, remade into
various games. MasHysteria, Dorias, Sylph are currently in SR. It's also
why I like Gnome's so much, I always have. Sylph even had a fun trip
through Nephilim :-)

The important part for me is the concept that I have behind the PC. If I
have someone I would enjoy playing, I'm not going to ditch the concept
because "it's a girl".
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Message no. 10
From: Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:59:48 -0800
From: Andrew Gryphon <webmaster@*********.com>

>
> on 11/10/00 2:43 PM, Nexx at nexx@********.net e-scribed:
>
> > However, when I play female characters, I don't concentrate on the fact that
> > they're female, and simply play the character. My style is very
> > immersive... I get into character to the point where I'm practically
> > method-acting... so I develop the personality and outlook of the character,
> > and then simply turn things over to her.
>
> I don't allow trans-gender PCs in my game. I know, I'm a fascist, but I've
> never met anyone who could play the opposite sex properly. Okay, one
> exception: a lesbian who played a rocker male very well--albeit
> occassionally annoying going on about real wood guitars....
>

Your game is your game, of course, but I take a bit of issue
with this statement. As a woman who plays exclusively male
characters (I don't like the baggage associated with playing
a female character, and I feel more comfortable playing guys)
I think, and have been told, that I do a good job of getting
into their heads. And what's so bad about going on about real
wood guitars? This isn't a mark of a female playing a male
character--it sounds more to me like it's a character quirk that
makes the guy more "human" (or whatever).

--Rat, who also likes the "immersive" style of roleplaying and
gets deeply into character during games

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
"If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that
thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats."
--Lemony Snicket
<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<
Message no. 11
From: Matthew Bond mgb@*****.swinternet.co.uk
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 01:33:19 -0000
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rat" <winterhawk@*********.net>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Cc: <winterhawk@*********.net>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2000 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR


> From: Andrew Gryphon <webmaster@*********.com>
>
> >
> > on 11/10/00 2:43 PM, Nexx at nexx@********.net e-scribed:
> >
> > > However, when I play female characters, I don't concentrate on the
fact that
> > > they're female, and simply play the character. My style is very
> > > immersive... I get into character to the point where I'm
practically
> > > method-acting... so I develop the personality and outlook of the
character,
> > > and then simply turn things over to her.
> >
> > I don't allow trans-gender PCs in my game. I know, I'm a fascist,
but I've
> > never met anyone who could play the opposite sex properly. Okay, one

What do you mean by 'properly'? As in 'not raving nymphomaniacs of
gigolos'

> > exception: a lesbian who played a rocker male very well--albeit
> > occassionally annoying going on about real wood guitars....
> >
>
> Your game is your game, of course, but I take a bit of issue
> with this statement. As a woman who plays exclusively male
> characters (I don't like the baggage associated with playing
> a female character, and I feel more comfortable playing guys)

What do you consider the baggage of Female Characters? I ask as I tend
to play male or female characters about equally as often. Usually in the
games I play in, sex per se doesn't really crop up, but my male
characters will flirt with barmaids, and the female ones with barmen.

My female characters tend to be more like Ripley or Scully than Ally
McBeal though.

(And yeah, I know, Ripley and Scully as character types are probably
quite 'male'. But so what, this isn't real life and I'm only playing a
role, just as Sigourney Weaver and Gillian Anderson did.)

And do the male GM's with a problem with cross gender PC's only have
male NPC's? No Barmaids, Princesses, Rock Diva's, Corp Exec's, Cops etc

And the statement someone made about perhaps allowing a cross gender PC
if the player had been 'happily married for 7-8 years' simply smacks of
latent homophobia to me...

"Hey dudes, that guy's playing a chick... is he, like, you know.. that
way inclined?"
"Hell no, Bob's been happily married for oh, 7... 8 years now!"

What the hell does marriage have to do with roleplaying? I assume it is
nothing to do with close observation of women, as most roleplayers have
lived with their mothers/sisters/girlfriends for much longer than they
have been married

The fact that you just have to look around to see women of all ages
doing things, observe them, then use that to develop a characters
reactions to situations is all to naught unless they have been married
for 7 years? OK, so I suppose you don't allow them to roleplay Trolls or
Orks or Elves, after all how many of your players have any experience of
what it like to *really* be a metahuman...

Harrumph!

Matt
(Whose current SR PC 'Dice' is a female elven Covert Ops/Decker...)
Message no. 12
From: Andrew Gryphon webmaster@*********.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:42:17 -0600
on 11/11/00 7:33 PM, Matthew Bond at mgb@*****.swinternet.co.uk can't deny
saying:

>>> I don't allow trans-gender PCs in my game. I know, I'm a fascist,
> but I've
>>> never met anyone who could play the opposite sex properly. Okay, one
>
> What do you mean by 'properly'? As in 'not raving nymphomaniacs of
> gigolos'

That or really bitter against men or über-effeminate to the point of
caricature. Yes, some can do it, but it's rare.

>>> exception: a lesbian who played a rocker male very well--albeit
>>> occassionally annoying going on about real wood guitars....

BTW, this was just a side note & had nothing to do with the gender issue.
She was just playing the character. It got annoying, but that was the point.

> And do the male GM's with a problem with cross gender PC's only have
> male NPC's? No Barmaids, Princesses, Rock Diva's, Corp Exec's, Cops etc

I thought of this and it's a good point. Can't argue with that.

> And the statement someone made about perhaps allowing a cross gender PC
> if the player had been 'happily married for 7-8 years' simply smacks of
> latent homophobia to me...
>
> "Hey dudes, that guy's playing a chick... is he, like, you know.. that
> way inclined?"
> "Hell no, Bob's been happily married for oh, 7... 8 years now!"
>
> What the hell does marriage have to do with roleplaying? I assume it is
> nothing to do with close observation of women, as most roleplayers have
> lived with their mothers/sisters/girlfriends for much longer than they
> have been married

Since I made the statement, I'll clarify. First, I'll get defensive & note
that I've already mentioned that there was a lesbian in our group. What I
didn't mention (didn't seem relevant at the time) was that of the other
gamers in the group, one's bi- & two were leatherhead gays, and my college
roommate (also my best man @ my wedding) is gay. I do, in fact, have
religious problems with the homosexual lifestyle, but that doesn't affect
how I treat people. I have religious problems with any sexual activity
outside of marriage, too, but I didn't spurn most of my other friends,
either.

As far as 7 or 8 years of marriage, this is not a hard & fast rule or
anything. Here's my (probably flawed) thinking: I've been happily married
for about 6 years. After spending massive amounts of time with my wife
and--by necessity--learnign how she responds to various situations, I feel
like I'm *starting* to understand her. Maybe a few more years. I never had a
sister except a step I never lived with. That's all the further I'll go. If
I can find someone who can pull off the character without being offensive to
any of the RL women in the group, okay. Rules have exceptions, but I don't
make rules out of exceptions.

> The fact that you just have to look around to see women of all ages
> doing things, observe them, then use that to develop a characters
> reactions to situations is all to naught unless they have been married
> for 7 years? OK, so I suppose you don't allow them to roleplay Trolls or
> Orks or Elves, after all how many of your players have any experience of
> what it like to *really* be a metahuman...

But I don't have any RL trolls in my group who'd say, "That's a totally
racist attitude! You're just playing a stereotype!" (Although I think one of
the players is a vampire....)

--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level
Message no. 13
From: Matthew Bond mgb@*****.swinternet.co.uk
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 05:41:36 -0000
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Gryphon" <webmaster@*********.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 3:42 AM
Subject: Re: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR


on 11/11/00 7:33 PM, Matthew Bond at mgb@*****.swinternet.co.uk can't
deny
saying:

>>> I don't allow trans-gender PCs in my game. I know, I'm a fascist,
> but I've
>>> never met anyone who could play the opposite sex properly. Okay, one
>
> What do you mean by 'properly'? As in 'not raving nymphomaniacs of
> gigolos'

That or really bitter against men or über-effeminate to the point of
caricature. Yes, some can do it, but it's rare.
----------------
I guess I must be fortunate, in that none of the cross gender PC's I
have played (or those that others I have gamed with have played) have
been like that.

Just because the character is female, doesn't mean you have to over
emphasise that aspect. If I have a female elven decker, what is more
relevant to the character? The elvishness, the decking, or being female?
Personally, I would say Decker, Elf, Female, in that order.

Similarly, if in real life a female cop pulls you over, do you first
think 'female' or 'cop'? Probably 'cop'.
---------------
> What the hell does marriage have to do with roleplaying? I assume it
is
> nothing to do with close observation of women, as most roleplayers
have
> lived with their mothers/sisters/girlfriends for much longer than they
> have been married

<snip>

As far as 7 or 8 years of marriage, this is not a hard & fast rule or
anything. Here's my (probably flawed) thinking: I've been happily
married
for about 6 years. After spending massive amounts of time with my wife
and--by necessity--learnign how she responds to various situations, I
feel
like I'm *starting* to understand her. Maybe a few more years. I never
had a
sister except a step I never lived with. That's all the further I'll go.
If
I can find someone who can pull off the character without being
offensive to
any of the RL women in the group, okay. Rules have exceptions, but I
don't
make rules out of exceptions.
------------
But knowing how one particular real life person (of any gender) will
react under real life situations doesn't materially help you roleplay a
made-up character in made-up situations. It can provide the barest-boes
of a reaction, but that is all.

If a bunch of go-gangers leapt out of a dark alley and started
threatening me, or any of the women I know, I doubt very much that any
of us would react as a SR character would...

------------
> The fact that you just have to look around to see women of all ages
> doing things, observe them, then use that to develop a characters
> reactions to situations is all to naught unless they have been married
> for 7 years? OK, so I suppose you don't allow them to roleplay Trolls
or
> Orks or Elves, after all how many of your players have any experience
of
> what it like to *really* be a metahuman...

But I don't have any RL trolls in my group who'd say, "That's a totally
racist attitude! You're just playing a stereotype!" (Although I think
one of
the players is a vampire....)
------------
Most characters contain elements of stereotypes (or at least
archetypes).

Most of my characters will start their 'game-life' as essentially a
'cardboard cut-out', of one or possibly an amalgam of two or more
archetypes/stereotypes. It is only during the game that their uniquness
develops.

I have played several 'Conan' clones in fantasy games, but they all
start to vary from the cliche from the moment the game begins.

Most people will have several 'stock-in-trade' characters that suit
their gaming style, which although they may start off superficially
similar will soon acquire distinctive quirks and personalities of their
own.

Playing psychologicaly flawed characters doesn't appeal to me, so my
characters (male or female) tend to be fairly competent in their chosen
field, and fairly normal in outlook. I generally pick a strong
role-model from a book, film or TV series (or an amalgam of several) and
take that as my baseline personality. To begin with I'll be thinking
'how would Ripley/Scully/Ivanova etc react', and as time goes on and I
have a firmer grasp on the character (based on how they *have* reacted)
then I rely less on the baseline and more on my feeling for this
particular character.

Take Dice, my current character. She's an Elven Decker, with covert op's
skills as well (for infiltrating places that don't have an external
matrix connection). She spent some time in the sprawl after coming to
Seattle in her early teens, and to survive she did some work as a
hooker, but she managed to get away from all that and ended up working
in Corp Finance. She can act sleazy if she needs to, but can also get
away with the polished professional look of a Corp Exec. Think of a
cross between Melanie Griffiths in 'Working Girl'..."I have a head for
business and a bod for sin!", Julia Roberts in 'Pretty Woman', and
Sigourney Weaver in 'Alien(s)'. She also has 'Blandness', so she's the
most typical looking elf you can imagine. About the only thing people
will remember about her is that she's a female elf... "You know, pointy
ears, cute in a can't-put-your-finger-on-it way... an elf."

In her first run, we had to get some info off a terminal inside a small
corp HQ and needed direct access from the inside (btw, this was my first
game of SR, and I had joined an ongoing campaign with some hardened
runners, whose usual plan involved two hours of discussion before
boiling down to 'we kick in the door and play it by ear'...). Using her
Corp Finance background she managed to make an appointment to see some
exec in the corps finance section regarding taking over their water
cooler supply contract, using our Johnsons contacts to set up a dummy
business for the purpose of the negotiations. This would get me and a
'bodyguard' inside. Me and the mage went in, as the Street Sam's would
arouse too much suspicion. In the elevator, the Exec's assistant made
some small talk, and asked if I was into golf, to which Dice replied in
a deadpan manner, "I like to play a round" (this was about as close as
the run got to any reference to Dice's sex), leaving a nonplussed
assistant and a smirking 'bodyguard'.

My 'bodyguard', the mage, accompanied the Assistant to his office, while
I negotiated with the Exec. At some point I requested something that
would require the assistant going somwhere on a different floor to fetch
it, then made an excuse to 'powder my nose'. After I left the room, the
mage cast a concealing spirit on me, while it went to an empty office,
hacked in and got the data. It took a couple of minutes then I headed
back. I suddenly remembered that I was effectively invisible, which
would spoil the end of the negotiations, so tried to get rid of the
spirit by flapping my hands and saying "Shoo, Shoo"... the mage spotted
me and dismissed the spirit, and I headed in to finish of the
negotiations.

We actually got the contract! And at a pretty profitable rate too, so we
left and handed the data and the contract over to the Johnson, which got
us a nice little bonus.

The "Shoo, Shoo" trick has actually worked about 3 times now as far as
Dice is concerned... though each time it was actually due to someone
else simultaneously dismissing the spirit, but now she always tries to
get rid of spirits by saying "Shoo, Shoo"...

Now, how is any of the above either not in keeping with a female
character, or invalidated because I, the player, am male?

:)

--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level
Message no. 14
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 10:27:56 GMT
>But I don't have any RL trolls in my group who'd say, "That's a totally
>racist attitude! You're just playing a stereotype!" (Although I think one
>of
>the players is a vampire....)

I have never known a plyer or GM to paint a female character as any kind of
steriotype. NPCs react as close to how they would if they were a real
person.

I don't get how you have to "understand women" to play a female character.
If you wanted to perfectly mimic an individual then you would study them but
treating women as a whole as a different species who require years of study
to properly portrey is stupid. Men and women are more similar than they are
different; as Mat said "male characters flirt with the barmaids and female
characters flurt with the bar men." Social expectations colour the way men
and women act and so long as a player recognises that and understands a few
biological differences like the menstrual cycle they'll do fine.

Sorry if this feels like I'm getting at you but, like a lot of people who
play characters of a different sex to them, I kind of take offence at being
told that becuase I'm a man can't play women right.

Phil

Dying is an art like everything else.
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Message no. 15
From: Graht graht@******.net
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 09:45:25 -0700
Phil Smith wrote:
>>From: Andrew Gryphon <webmaster@*********.com>
>>I don't allow trans-gender PCs in my game. I know, I'm a fascist,
>
>Yes. Yes you are :)>
>
>>but I've
>>never met anyone who could play the opposite sex properly.
>
>I think I do an okay job playing my female character, I'm certainly more
>aware of her mindset and what she wants than with my male characters, and
>to be honest I enjoy playing her a fair bit more.

Roleplaying a female character is just like roleplaying a male
character. Roleplay each and every character as a person.

Every person, regardless of sex, has needs, wants, passions, fears, likes,
dislikes, etc. The differences between men and women are very minor.

There are the physiological differences: on average men are stronger and
masturbate frequently, on average women are more sensitive emotionally and
they have to deal with their menstrual cycle. But once you get past the
physiological differences, men and women are like everyone else, they're
all individuals and as different from their neighbor as a dog is from a cactus.

I roleplay female characters on occasion because that's just the way it
works out. I start with a rough character concept, and it the sex of the
character is determined intuitively. When I'm making a character their sex
just kind of happens. I.e., it's a result of who the character is. I
don't ever start of with, "Okay, I'm going to make a female character this
time."

And if a player did start off with, "I want to play a female character," I
would allow it. Who am I to deprive a player of the challenge of
roleplaying a female character? They own the character, not me.

-To Life,
Graht
--

"My assistant, Bob the dinasaur, will now demonstrate
how to give a cat a 'fur wedgie.'"
Message no. 16
From: Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 10:21:49 -0800
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@*****.swinternet.co.uk>


> > Your game is your game, of course, but I take a bit of issue
> > with this statement. As a woman who plays exclusively male
> > characters (I don't like the baggage associated with playing
> > a female character, and I feel more comfortable playing guys)
>
> What do you consider the baggage of Female Characters? I ask as I tend
> to play male or female characters about equally as often. Usually in the
> games I play in, sex per se doesn't really crop up, but my male
> characters will flirt with barmaids, and the female ones with barmen.


I'll respond to just this because it's the only part of the post
that addressed my comments.

The baggage I'm referring to (and it's by no means universal or
even common, but it annoys me when it happens so I don't put
myself into a position to let it) is male characters feeling they
have to "protect" a female character (overtly or more subtly),
lots of male-character attention toward the female character,
"chivalry"--all these things are fine if you like them, but I
don't like them as a person and I would be uncomfortable with them
as a character. When I game I prefer to be "one of the guys" (our
gaming group is all male except me) and running a male character
makes that easier.

The odd things is, my *male* characters tend to slip into
some of the behaviors I described above when dealing with
female NPCs or the occasional female character. Weird. :)

--Rat, the (happily married for coming up on 12 years) tomboy

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
"If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that
thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats."
--Lemony Snicket
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Message no. 17
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:30:36 -0800
Andrew Gryphon wrote:
>
> I don't allow trans-gender PCs in my game. I know, I'm a fascist, but I've
> never met anyone who could play the opposite sex properly. Okay, one
> exception: a lesbian who played a rocker male very well--albeit
> occassionally annoying going on about real wood guitars....

I'm more interested that everyone in my group have fun than worry about
whether they can "properly" roleplay the other gender. I wouldn't dream
of forbidding it, although I prefer to discourage the cheezy
stereotypes.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Message no. 18
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:13:30 -0500
Rat said
> The baggage I'm referring to (and it's by no means universal or
> even common, but it annoys me when it happens so I don't put
> myself into a position to let it) is male characters feeling they
> have to "protect" a female character (overtly or more subtly),
> lots of male-character attention toward the female character,
> "chivalry"--all these things are fine if you like them, but I
> don't like them as a person and I would be uncomfortable with them
> as a character.

One person's discomfort is another's role-playing opportunity. In my
opinion, it should not matter if you the player doesn't like this baggage.
It should only matter is the character doesn't like this baggage. It seems
to me that if you deem the character would be uncomfortable with them, that
discomfort should be role-played. I guess what Rat is saying is that
role-playing this is a) not worth the effort or b) not-enjoyable (or some
combination thereof). Viv la differance.

Personally, the first thing I do with most of my characters is flip a coin
to play their gender. During one campaign, I was playing a female character,
and the rest of the players would consistently refer to me as "her", even
while pointing at me. No one thought it was weird. I didn't even notice it
for a long time. I thought that was kind of cool.

This character, BTW, was Tess, for whom I wrote a diary that appeared in one
of the NAGEE's (http://bhopal.flashpt.com/internet/nagee.nsf/docs/tess).
I've always wondered if she came across as female in that diary. She was
pretty emotionless, though (she was a snake shaman), so she might come
across as more robotic than male or female.
Message no. 19
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 23:01:25 +1000
At 12:02 AM 11/11/00 -0600, Andrew Gryphon wrote:
>on 11/10/00 2:43 PM, Nexx at nexx@********.net e-scribed:
>
>> However, when I play female characters, I don't concentrate on the fact
that
>> they're female, and simply play the character. My style is very
>> immersive... I get into character to the point where I'm practically
>> method-acting... so I develop the personality and outlook of the character,
>> and then simply turn things over to her.
>
>I don't allow trans-gender PCs in my game. I know, I'm a fascist, but I've
>never met anyone who could play the opposite sex properly.

Define 'properly'. By your logic:

You're a man. You can't play females, because you don't understand them,
because you're not one.

Hence, if you don't understand females well enough to play them well, how
can you judge if someone else is playing them well, if you don't have the
correct yardstick to measure their roleplaying performance by?

That's like saying "I'm not Chinese and don't know Chinese culture well
enough to play a Chinese character, but yet I can make the judgement that
you aren't allowed to play one because you're playing them wrongly." If you
don't know the subject matter yourself, you can't critique someone else's
performance.

(Note I am using "understand" in a simple roleplaying/psychological sense
here; I'm not trying to start a gender war.)

(And for what it's worth, I've met men that can play perfectly convincing
females, and females that can play perfectly convincing male characters. I
would flatter myself that I'm amongst the latter group. Ultimately, a
character is just a personality, a set of motivations and behaviours, and
compared with that range and scope of possible persona types a simple X-Y
chromosome difference really shouldn't matter.)

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://staff.dumpshock.com/jestyr *
Message no. 20
From: Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 08:14:06 -0800
Wordman wordman@*******.com wrote:

> Rat said
> > The baggage I'm referring to (and it's by no means universal or
> > even common, but it annoys me when it happens so I don't put
> > myself into a position to let it) is male characters feeling they
> > have to "protect" a female character (overtly or more subtly),
> > lots of male-character attention toward the female character,
> > "chivalry"--all these things are fine if you like them, but I
> > don't like them as a person and I would be uncomfortable with them
> > as a character.
>
> One person's discomfort is another's role-playing opportunity. In my
> opinion, it should not matter if you the player doesn't like this baggage.
> It should only matter is the character doesn't like this baggage. It seems
> to me that if you deem the character would be uncomfortable with them, that
> discomfort should be role-played. I guess what Rat is saying is that
> role-playing this is a) not worth the effort or b) not-enjoyable (or some
> combination thereof). Viv la differance.

Well, first of all, I would not *run* a character that is
comfortable with that kind of attention (except as an NPC, of
course--as someone else pointed out, NPCs come in all shapes,
sizes, genders, and mindsets, and in this context it can be
fun). I play RPGs to have fun, and I enjoy characters whose
heads I can get into and who I can run for a very long time (I
have characters I've run for more than 10 years). I certainly
enjoy running characters different from myself, but because I
tend to identify heavily with my characters, I wouldn't want to
get into the "baggage" I described above in a character of mine.
If someone else in a game I run wants to--more power to 'em.
I think if I were more inclined to play several characters
instead of just one or two I would experiment more.

So in short, I'll go with your (b) answer above. Roleplaying that
sort of thing is not enjoyable for me, so I don't do it.

>
> Personally, the first thing I do with most of my characters is flip a coin
> to play their gender. During one campaign, I was playing a female character,
> and the rest of the players would consistently refer to me as "her", even
> while pointing at me. No one thought it was weird. I didn't even notice it
> for a long time. I thought that was kind of cool.
>

That is cool. I've finally got my two gaming groups trained
(after between 1 and 10 years) to call my characters "he" instead
of "she." It *did* take awhile for some of them. :)

--Rat

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
"If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that
thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats."
--Lemony Snicket
<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<
Message no. 21
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 13:07:33 -0800
Lady Jestyr wrote:
>
> (And for what it's worth, I've met men that can play perfectly convincing
> females, and females that can play perfectly convincing male characters. I
> would flatter myself that I'm amongst the latter group. Ultimately, a
> character is just a personality, a set of motivations and behaviours, and
> compared with that range and scope of possible persona types a simple X-Y
> chromosome difference really shouldn't matter.)

I agree with everything Jes says here.

FWIW, I usually play female PCs, but if I'm GMing, I find that the NPCs
I enjoy most are male. I can't explain it... :-)

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Message no. 22
From: Paul Collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:43:45 +1100
<snip>

>
> (And for what it's worth, I've met men that can play perfectly convincing
> females, and females that can play perfectly convincing male characters. I
> would flatter myself that I'm amongst the latter group.

I'd hate to think you where among the former :o)

Although I'd like to flatter myself and put myself in the former group. At
least when I was playing online games, I got the 'You're a RL male?' type of
comment a couple of times. (From women. I don't think it counts if it's
from males)

For me the male/female character choice boils down to an image thing. Most
male clothing sucks in my opinion, so ...

> Lady Jestyr
> ~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~
>
> * jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://staff.dumpshock.com/jestyr *
>
>

Annachie

------------------------------------------------

-----Oh, Edmund... I do love it when you get cross. Sometimes I think about
having you executed just to see the expression on your face.
-----Queenie
Message no. 23
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:40:28 -0800 (PST)
<snipt!(TM)>
> (And for what it's worth, I've met men that can play
perfectly convincing females, and females that can
play perfectly convincing male characters. I would
flatter myself that I'm amongst the latter group.
Ultimately, a character is just a personality, a set
of motivations and behaviours, and compared with that
range and scope of possible persona types a simple X-Y
chromosome difference really shouldn't matter.)
> Lady Jestyr

Oh, come on, Lady J - it's EASY to play the average
guy. You just need to get the right mental picture.

Imagine this...a giant dick...with legs and
arms...full of nothing but testosterone and sperm...

Okay, you've got it. Go forth and roleplay a man...

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 24
From: Andrew Gryphon webmaster@*********.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:11:30 -0600
on 11/13/00 7:40 PM, Rand Ratinac at docwagon101@*****.com can't deny
saying:

> Imagine this...a giant dick...with legs and
> arms...full of nothing but testosterone and sperm...
>
> Okay, you've got it. Go forth and roleplay a man...

Just because male stereotypes are true.... Yeah, women can play men much
better than men can play women in my experience.

--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level
Message no. 25
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:50:46 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*********.html.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 12:16 AM
Subject: Re: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR



>>I don't allow trans-gender PCs in my game. I know, I'm a fascist, but I've
>>never met anyone who could play the opposite sex properly.
>
>Define 'properly'. By your logic:
>
>You're a man. You can't play females, because you don't understand them,
>because you're not one.
>


The way I took the post, the way I also think, is that for a man to play a
female character is difficult, not because they don't understand women, but
because it is difficult to play from a female perspective. I doubt many
westerners could accurately play a Japanese character either. Again the
differences are superficial and easy to understand, but the mindset is
different enough to make consistently pretending to be one very difficult.
I have a newish character with an intelligence of 1, and playing him is a
very difficult thing to do. I keep forgetting, since I've always been of
slightly above average intelligence. It doesn't mean I don't understand
stupid people, just that it is an immersion into character that is a bit too
difficult to maintain.
I can't speak for Mr Gryphon, but that would be my definition of 'properly'
in this situation. Sure I can 'be' a realistic woman for a short time as GM,
but keeping in character for hours as a player is hard work.

-Simon, who is in no way other than that stated above comparing women to
unintelligence.
Message no. 26
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:14:57 +0100
According to Marizhavashti Kali, on Mon, 13 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> FWIW, I usually play female PCs, but if I'm GMing, I find that the NPCs
> I enjoy most are male. I can't explain it... :-)

Still better than one of the female players in my group, who (if given
half a chance) plays characters that totally mix these things up -- like a
female carpenter who was actually a man in disguise. Or did I get that the
wrong way round (male carpenter who's actually a woman)? I don't
remember... Then her next character was going to be a male priest whose big
secret was that he was a woman, but we managed to persuade her to change
that.

Granted, all this was in Over The Edge, so it's not as if they were that
weird...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 27
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:10:36 -0600
:Oh, come on, Lady J - it's EASY to play the average
:guy. You just need to get the right mental picture.

<snip crass, obvious humour>

There's a meaningful point there. Despite some efforts by most good games,
game books tend to be slanted towards the male perspective. When they talk
about how to role play, they generally speak to typically male motivations
like greed, pride, elitism, "adventure", and even simple machismo. Some
books are moderately gender nuetral, but "gender nuetral" doesn't remove
mis-perceptions that guys wanting to play female characters may have.

Anybody know of any notable exceptions? The'd probably make a good read...

-Sebastian
Message no. 28
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:51:07 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, Sebastian Wiers wrote:

> Some books are moderately gender nuetral, but "gender nuetral" doesn't
> remove mis-perceptions that guys wanting to play female characters may
> have.
>
> Anybody know of any notable exceptions? The'd probably make a good read...

"Bat-Winged Bimbos from Hell"? What about the supplement to
BWBfH - "Renegade Nuns on Wheels"? Surely these are paragons of the
female perspective on gaming.
</sarcasm>

Marc
Message no. 29
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:27:25 -0800 (PST)
> :Oh, come on, Lady J - it's EASY to play the average
guy. You just need to get the right mental picture.
>
> <snip crass, obvious humour>
> -Sebastian

Yup. Crass, that's me. :)

*Doc' gets a new suit made up..."Nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh
nuh nuh nuh, nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh, Crassman!"*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/
Message no. 30
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:16:56 -0600
:> :Oh, come on, Lady J - it's EASY to play the average
:guy. You just need to get the right mental picture.
:>
:> <snip crass, obvious humour>
:> -Sebastian
:
:Yup. Crass, that's me. :)
:
:*Doc' gets a new suit made up..."Nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh
:nuh nuh nuh, nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh, Crassman!"*

I didn't say it wasn't FUNNY, mind you...

-Sebastian
Message no. 31
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:26:48 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR


>According to Marizhavashti Kali, on Mon, 13 Nov 2000 the word on the street
was...

>> FWIW, I usually play female PCs, but if I'm GMing, I find that the NPCs
>> I enjoy most are male. I can't explain it... :-)

>Still better than one of the female players in my group, who (if given
>half a chance) plays characters that totally mix these things up -- like a
>female carpenter who was actually a man in disguise. Or did I get that the
>wrong way round (male carpenter who's actually a woman)? I don't
>remember... Then her next character was going to be a male priest whose big
>secret was that he was a woman, but we managed to persuade her to change
>that.

There was a pope who was actually a female in disguise. She came to a sticky
end of some sort, but I can't quite remember. Pope Joan, I think she ended
up being called.
Message no. 32
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 22:44:55 -0800
Simon and Fiona wrote:
>
> There was a pope who was actually a female in disguise. She came to a sticky
> end of some sort, but I can't quite remember. Pope Joan, I think she ended
> up being called.

Well, when the pope gives birth in public...

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Message no. 33
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:11:10 +0100
According to Marc Renouf, on Wed, 15 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> "Bat-Winged Bimbos from Hell"? What about the supplement to
> BWBfH - "Renegade Nuns on Wheels"? Surely these are paragons of the
> female perspective on gaming.
> </sarcasm>

Those are both supplements; the game you're thinking of is Macho Women With
Guns. It's fun to read, but I found it rather unplayable; you're better off
going for Hollyworld if you want a humoristic RPG by BTRC.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 34
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:16:47 -0800
Gurth wrote:
>
> Those are both supplements; the game you're thinking of is Macho Women With
> Guns. It's fun to read, but I found it rather unplayable; you're better off
> going for Hollyworld if you want a humoristic RPG by BTRC.

What? But Gurth, Ivy Ryan said it was that it was a very playable
system...

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Message no. 35
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:35:36 -0500 (EST)
On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Marizhavashti Kali wrote:

> > Those are both supplements; the game you're thinking of is Macho Women With
> > Guns. It's fun to read, but I found it rather unplayable; you're better off
> > going for Hollyworld if you want a humoristic RPG by BTRC.
>
> What? But Gurth, Ivy Ryan said it was that it was a very playable
> system...

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrgggghh!!!!! The word! She said the
word!

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

Other ShadowRN-related addresses and links:
Mark Imbriaco <mark@*********.com> List Owner
Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> Assistant List Administrator
DVixen <dvixen@****.com> Keeper of the FAQs
Gurth <gurth@******.nl> GridSec Enforcer Division
David Buehrer <graht@******.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
ShadowRN FAQ <http://hlair.dumpshock.com/faqindex.php3>;
Message no. 36
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:20:26 -0800
Marc Renouf wrote:
>
> > What? But Gurth, Ivy Ryan said it was that it was a very playable
> > system...
>
> Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrgggghh!!!!! The word! She said the
> word!

Sorry, Marc, I couldn't help myself. She really *did* say that. :-)

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Message no. 37
From: Damion Milliken dam01@***.edu.au
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:28:01 +1100 (EST)
Marizhavashti Kali writes:

> > > What? But Gurth, Ivy Ryan said it was that it was a very playable
> > > system...
> >
> > Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrgggghh!!!!! The word! She said the
> > word!
>
> Sorry, Marc, I couldn't help myself. She really *did* say that. :-)

What word? <grin> Unless Ivy came back to the list sometime in the couple of
years I was away, the last thing I remember regarding her was that funny
story about the armour jacket salesman... This is Ivy K Ryan, who had the
characters with 2000+ reputation (back when that sort of thing was
tracked)? I also note that there's an iryan@********.de subscribed to the
list...

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 38
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:02:40 -0800 (PST)
> :> <snip crass, obvious humour>
> :> -Sebastian
> :
> :Yup. Crass, that's me. :)
> :
> :*Doc' gets a new suit made up..."Nuh nuh nuh nuh
nuh nuh nuh nuh, nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh,
Crassman!"*
>
> I didn't say it wasn't FUNNY, mind you...
> -Sebastian

That's cool, Mongoose. I LIKE my new outfit...even
better than my Pedantic Wo/Man one. :)

*Doc' waddles off into the sunset, humming the
"Crassman" theme...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
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Message no. 39
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:27:21 -0800
Damion Milliken wrote:
>

> > Sorry, Marc, I couldn't help myself. She really *did* say that. :-)
>
> What word? <grin> Unless Ivy came back to the list sometime in the couple of
> years I was away, the last thing I remember regarding her was that funny
> story about the armour jacket salesman...

Heh. :-) No, this was when I lived with her back in 1993 or so.

> This is Ivy K Ryan, who had the
> characters with 2000+ reputation (back when that sort of thing was
> tracked)? I also note that there's an iryan@********.de subscribed to the
> list...

Interesting - she always wanted to move to Germany... Of course, it's
also possible to get international access to t-online.de, but it's also
expensive.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Message no. 40
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:42:25 -0800
Damion Milliken wrote:
>
> I also note that there's an iryan@********.de subscribed to the
> list...

Florian Schaetz/Irian.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Message no. 41
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:12:16 +0100
According to Marizhavashti Kali, on Wed, 15 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> What? But Gurth, Ivy Ryan said it was that it was a very playable
> system...

You're saying that on purpose, aren't you? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 42
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 03:26:38 -0800
Gurth wrote:
>
> According to Marizhavashti Kali, on Wed, 15 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...
>
> > What? But Gurth, Ivy Ryan said it was that it was a very playable
> > system...
>
> You're saying that on purpose, aren't you? :)

I am, but I'm saying it on purpose because it's *true*.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Message no. 43
From: Gordon McCormick gmcc@*********.ie
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:40:33 +0000
Andrew Gryphon wrote:
>
> I don't allow trans-gender PCs in my game. I know, I'm a fascist, but I've
> never met anyone who could play the opposite sex properly. Okay, one
> exception: a lesbian who played a rocker male very well--albeit
> occassionally annoying going on about real wood guitars....

What about the GM? Surely a GM has to play some characters of
the opposite sex...

gordon
Message no. 44
From: Andrew Gryphon webmaster@*********.com
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 23:36:53 -0600
on 11/16/00 1:40 PM, Gordon McCormick at gmcc@*********.ie e-scribed:

>> I don't allow trans-gender PCs in my game. I know, I'm a fascist, but I've
>> never met anyone who could play the opposite sex properly. Okay, one
>> exception: a lesbian who played a rocker male very well--albeit
>> occassionally annoying going on about real wood guitars....
>
> What about the GM? Surely a GM has to play some characters of
> the opposite sex...

Okay, last time I'll apologize for these comments, or is this just people
getting the digest. Anyway, this thread will self-destruct....

(I'm not playing Gridsec, just tired of the same comments. GM can do what he
wants. It's Law, along with "We shall eat no meat." and "We shall not walk
on all fours.")

--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level
Message no. 45
From: Gordon McCormick gmcc@*********.ie
Subject: Transgender Role-playing (was Re: Sex In SR
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:05:49 +0000
On Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 11:36:53PM -0600, Andrew Gryphon wrote:
> on 11/16/00 1:40 PM, Gordon McCormick at gmcc@*********.ie e-scribed:
>
> >> I don't allow trans-gender PCs in my game. I know, I'm a fascist, but I've
> >> never met anyone who could play the opposite sex properly. Okay, one
> >> exception: a lesbian who played a rocker male very well--albeit
> >> occassionally annoying going on about real wood guitars....
> >
> > What about the GM? Surely a GM has to play some characters of
> > the opposite sex...
>
> Okay, last time I'll apologize for these comments, or is this just people
> getting the digest. Anyway, this thread will self-destruct....

No apology necessary, as a GM I do have the problem of trying
to role play lots of different characters, some of which I'm
not so good at. In particular I like to put on accents for various
characters, and my female voices are just naff :)

This unfortunately leads to an imbalance of male NPC's in my
campaigns, especially for any contacts/friends and other NPC's
who talk a lot. People that don't show up much (including
Arch nemeses) tend to be of either gender, but not the ones
close to the PC's :(

Although I did find it easy to play Tullontia, a female Troll
who had had several sex changes (no one even knows what sex she
was to start with...) Very messed up character, completely in
love with the Troll Mage PC and had the deepest voice I could
manage. Great fun was had by all :)

> (I'm not playing Gridsec, just tired of the same comments. GM can do what he
> wants. It's Law, along with "We shall eat no meat." and "We shall not
walk
> on all fours.")

:)

gordon

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