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Message no. 1
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:07:39 -0500
Page 289 (Simrig entry):

"This device consists of numerous induction `trodes worn by a person to
record a baseline simesense signal (see Simsense, p. 285)."

Woohoo!

50k may be a bit much for a non-cyber datajack (the 50k is for the whole
simrig) but I may use it as such anyway ... :)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 2
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:21:46 -0500
> Page 289 (Simrig entry):
>
> "This device consists of numerous induction `trodes worn by a person to
> record a baseline simesense signal (see Simsense, p. 285)."
>
> Woohoo!
>
> 50k may be a bit much for a non-cyber datajack (the 50k is for the whole
> simrig) but I may use it as such anyway ... :)

Hate to burst your bubble, but you might want to reread that entry. The key
word being "record". I'm not certain this is what you are looking for.

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
Message no. 3
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 19:41:36 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:21 PM 9/12/98 -0500, XaOs wrote:
>> "This device consists of numerous induction `trodes worn by a
person to
>> record a baseline simesense signal (see Simsense, p. 285)."
>Hate to burst your bubble,

Alrighty. That's just damned creepy, because that's the exact same 5
word phrase that I opened my reply to that post with.

Get out of my head. :)

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 4
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 19:37:08 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:07 PM 9/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Page 289 (Simrig entry):
>
>"This device consists of numerous induction `trodes worn by a person
to
>record a baseline simesense signal (see Simsense, p. 285)."
>
>Woohoo!
>
>50k may be a bit much for a non-cyber datajack (the 50k is for the
whole
>simrig) but I may use it as such anyway ... :)

Hate to burst your bubble, but those stats are for a device that
records an ASIST signal, not one that plays it back.


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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 5
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:51:53 -0500
>> 50k may be a bit much for a non-cyber datajack (the 50k is for the whole
>> simrig) but I may use it as such anyway ... :)
>
>Hate to burst your bubble, but you might want to reread that entry. The key
>word being "record". I'm not certain this is what you are looking for.

Maybe not what *he* was looking for, but it's sure as shooting something I
was looking for in regards to something else I was working on.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 6
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:54:55 -0500
>Hate to burst your bubble, but those stats are for a device that
>records an ASIST signal, not one that plays it back.

Paul, remember that walker frame I was discussing a while back? Is this not
exactly what I was looking for? (Please say it is; it's been a crappy week
and I need something to go right for me at this point.)

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 7
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:50:22 -0500
From the mental mindlink of Paul Gettle:

> Alrighty. That's just damned creepy, because that's the exact same 5
> word phrase that I opened my reply to that post with.
>
> Get out of my head. :)

That's okay, I'm used to it. I'm psychoti...er psychic.

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
Message no. 8
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:58:02 -0500
On Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:21:46 -0500 XaOs <xaos@*****.NET> writes:
>> Page 289 (Simrig entry):
>>
>> "This device consists of numerous induction `trodes worn by a person
to
>> record a baseline simesense signal (see Simsense, p. 285)."
>>
>> Woohoo!
>>
>> 50k may be a bit much for a non-cyber datajack (the 50k is for the
whole
>> simrig) but I may use it as such anyway ... :)

>Hate to burst your bubble, but you might want to reread that entry. The
key
>word being "record". I'm not certain this is what you are looking for.
>
>-XaOs-
>xaos@*****.net

No Bubble bursted. I noticed that and that's why I was suggesting 50k
for the 2 way version. :)

What I was so happy happy joy joy about was a whale ... no, it was about
there being *something* about `trode nets *somewhere*.

I don't really see how a trode could SEND signals to the brain but I'm
willing to chalk it up to Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy tech and charge up the butt
for it. :)

Hmm ... for a set that just sent signals to some gear (Ie, the datajack
port on your vehicle), maybe just 5k would be good ...

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 9
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 19:05:49 -0500
On Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:54:55 -0500 Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET> writes:
>>Hate to burst your bubble, but those stats are for a device that
>>records an ASIST signal, not one that plays it back.

>Paul, remember that walker frame I was discussing a while back? Is this
not
>exactly what I was looking for? (Please say it is; it's been a crappy
week
>and I need something to go right for me at this point.)
>
>---
>(>) Texas 2-Step
<SNIP Sig>

I think so. You want to send the walker mental commands, not receive
info, send only right? This would do it (IMO).

BTW, I'm hoping the same thing ... I had a PhysAd and want to install a
datajack port to assist with driving the bike but didn't want to install
a datajack ... Instead I had the idea of installing a `trode net into a
motorcycle helmet.

Side Note: Would an armored motorcycle helmet cost the same as a
Security Helmet?

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 10
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 20:27:03 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:54 PM 9/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Hate to burst your bubble, but those stats are for a device that
>>records an ASIST signal, not one that plays it back.
>
>Paul, remember that walker frame I was discussing a while back?

The wheelchair alternative for the temporarily/permanently disabled?
That thingy?

>Is this not exactly what I was looking for?

The simrig is capable of recording baseline sim. This means sensory
tracks only. However, Kinetic/Kinestetic senses, which are motion &
muscle tension, respeticvely, are included in that. The catch is, if
the limb is injured and needs to immobilized, would the minimum amount
of muscle tension that a simrig can pick up be too much stress for the
healing limb?

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 12:46:37 +0200
According to D. Ghost, at 19:05 on 12 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> BTW, I'm hoping the same thing ... I had a PhysAd and want to install a
> datajack port to assist with driving the bike

Last Friday one of my players was making a character and asked if he could
get a datajack port installed _in_the_character_...

> Side Note: Would an armored motorcycle helmet cost the same as a
> Security Helmet?

Armored as in giving both Ballistic and Impact armor? I'd probably give
that the same cost as a security helmet.

OTOH a normal motorcycle crash helmet (which is lacking in SR) gives +1
Impact in my game, and costs about 50 to 100 nuyen depending on what model
the player wants to have.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 10:37:42 -0500
>>Paul, remember that walker frame I was discussing a while back?
>
>The wheelchair alternative for the temporarily/permanently disabled?
>That thingy?

That is the doo-dad in question, yes.

>The simrig is capable of recording baseline sim. This means sensory
>tracks only. However, Kinetic/Kinestetic senses, which are motion &
>muscle tension, respeticvely, are included in that.

The electrode net that helps accomplish this is more what I had in mind as
being "just exactly what I was looking for," actually. I'm mostly out to
make a low-level, non-invasive rigger unit with this, specifically limited
to moving this walker/brace/frame around.

Your opinion (or anyone else's if they feel like playing): Would this do
the trick?

>The catch is, if the limb is injured and needs to immobilized, would
>the minimum amount of muscle tension that a simrig can pick up be too
>much stress for the healing limb?

I'm beginning to wonder if we're talking about the same thing, Paul. Of
course, I was up way too late last night and I'm still groggy this morning.
Later, when I wake up, I'll try to clarify what I've got in mind.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 13
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 22:59:19 -0700
:>Paul, remember that walker frame I was discussing a while back?
:
:The wheelchair alternative for the temporarily/permanently disabled?
:That thingy?
:
:>Is this not exactly what I was looking for?
:
:The simrig is capable of recording baseline sim. This means sensory
:tracks only. However, Kinetic/Kinestetic senses, which are motion &
:muscle tension, respeticvely, are included in that. The catch is, if
:the limb is injured and needs to immobilized, would the minimum amount
:of muscle tension that a simrig can pick up be too much stress for the
:healing limb?


Muscle tension? Oh, for the body to sense. The paralyzed people I've
talked to say they occasionally dream that they are walking, so I would
say the brain can still generate those sensations, and that ability could
be trained (which is the basis of some rehabilitation; straightening
neural signals).

Mongoose
Message no. 14
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 13:42:36 -0500
On Sat, 12 Sep 1998 22:59:19 -0700 Mongoose <evamarie@**********.net>
writes:
>:>Paul, remember that walker frame I was discussing a while back?

>:The wheelchair alternative for the temporarily/permanently disabled?
>:That thingy?

>:>Is this not exactly what I was looking for?

>:The simrig is capable of recording baseline sim. This means sensory
>:tracks only. However, Kinetic/Kinestetic senses, which are motion &
>:muscle tension, respeticvely, are included in that. The catch is, if
>:the limb is injured and needs to immobilized, would the minimum amount
>:of muscle tension that a simrig can pick up be too much stress for the
>:healing limb?

> Muscle tension? Oh, for the body to sense. The paralyzed people
I've
>talked to say they occasionally dream that they are walking, so I would
>say the brain can still generate those sensations, and that ability
could
>be trained (which is the basis of some rehabilitation; straightening
>neural signals).
>
>Mongoose

Actually, I think the problem is that the original design was for a
non-wheelchair for an injurred mage (ie, not paralyzed) ... so Paul was
suggesting that using this device might interfere witht the healing
process (kind of like in M.A.N.T.I.S.)

IF the mage was paralyzed, this would, IMO, work witout a problem.
However, it's been a while but I think Patrick's character was only
temporarily injured.

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 15
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 17:07:14 -0500
>> Muscle tension? Oh, for the body to sense. The paralyzed people
>> I've talked to say they occasionally dream that they are walking,
>> so I would say the brain can still generate those sensations, and
>> that ability could be trained (which is the basis of some
>> rehabilitation; straightening neural signals).
>
>Actually, I think the problem is that the original design was for a
>non-wheelchair for an injurred mage (ie, not paralyzed) ... so Paul was
>suggesting that using this device might interfere witht the healing
>process (kind of like in M.A.N.T.I.S.)

Couple of points. First off, Miles Whatsisname in M.A.N.T.I.S. was
paralyzed from the waist down, not just injured and healing. The
M.A.N.T.I.S. suit wasn't meant for rehab, but as a means for him to be a
vigilante and save the world.

Second, the character I'm building this for is also paralyzed from the waist
down, and she's not wild about wheelchairs or invasive surgery jacking with
her Talent.

Where Paul's notion about kinesthetic impulses stressing the healing limb
came in was something that occurred to me afterward, that this doodad could
be used as an aid for physical therapy and rehabilitation for people wounded
in car accidents (for example) or who got shot up real good (for another),
to keep up their strength and muscle tone while preparing for or recovering
from cybernetic implant surgery. And he's got a real good point; I guess I
should talk to some physical therapists one of these days and see what
*they* think.

>IF the mage was paralyzed, this would, IMO, work witout a problem.
>However, it's been a while but I think Patrick's character was only
>temporarily injured.

No, Siobhan's paralysis, barring some breakthroughs in MAN AND MACHINE or
some interesting magical applications, is permanent.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 16
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 20:45:05 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:42 PM 9/13/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
>> Muscle tension? Oh, for the body to sense. The paralyzed
people
>I've
>>talked to say they occasionally dream that they are walking, so I
would
>>say the brain can still generate those sensations, and that ability
>could
>>be trained (which is the basis of some rehabilitation; straightening
>>neural signals).

>Actually, I think the problem is that the original design was for a
>non-wheelchair for an injurred mage (ie, not paralyzed) ... so Paul
was
>suggesting that using this device might interfere witht the healing
>process (kind of like in M.A.N.T.I.S.)
>
>IF the mage was paralyzed, this would, IMO, work witout a problem.
>However, it's been a while but I think Patrick's character was only
>temporarily injured.

No, no, no, NO. :)
This thing can only record the sensations of actual muscle tension. If
the person is incapable of voluntarily tensing their muscles, or even
worse, has no sensation below a certain point what so ever, then a
trode net that takes baseline sim recordings would not be good for
this purpose.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 17
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 20:11:47 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:37 AM 9/13/98 -0500, Patrick wrote:
>>The simrig is capable of recording baseline sim. This means sensory
>>tracks only. However, Kinetic/Kinestetic senses, which are motion &
>>muscle tension, respeticvely, are included in that.
>
>The electrode net that helps accomplish this is more what I had in
mind as
>being "just exactly what I was looking for," actually. I'm mostly
out to
>make a low-level, non-invasive rigger unit with this, specifically
limited
>to moving this walker/brace/frame around.
>
>Your opinion (or anyone else's if they feel like playing): Would
this do
>the trick?

The electrode net simrig from BBB3 is used for recording baseline
simsense. It can record the sensations of having tension in one's
muscles. However, I do not think it can pick up the neural signals
that would go from the hindbrain out to the body that would tense
those muscles in the first place.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 18
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:01:38 -0500
On Sun, 13 Sep 1998 20:45:05 -0400 Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
<SNIP>
>No, no, no, NO. :)
>This thing can only record the sensations of actual muscle tension. If
>the person is incapable of voluntarily tensing their muscles, or even
>worse, has no sensation below a certain point what so ever, then a
>trode net that takes baseline sim recordings would not be good for
>this purpose.
>
<SNIP PGP>
> -- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
<SNIP More PGP>

Uhm ... Query: How does a net of `trodes worn on the HEAD record muscle
tension in the LEGS?

D. Ghost (Who has very little knowledge on the matter so bear with him :)
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 19
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 20:45:06 -0500
On Sun, 13 Sep 1998 17:07:14 -0500 Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET> writes:
>>> Muscle tension? Oh, for the body to sense. The paralyzed people
>>> I've talked to say they occasionally dream that they are walking,
>>> so I would say the brain can still generate those sensations, and
>>> that ability could be trained (which is the basis of some
>>> rehabilitation; straightening neural signals).

>>Actually, I think the problem is that the original design was for a
>>non-wheelchair for an injurred mage (ie, not paralyzed) ... so Paul was
>>suggesting that using this device might interfere witht the healing
>>process (kind of like in M.A.N.T.I.S.)

>Couple of points. First off, Miles Whatsisname in M.A.N.T.I.S. was
>paralyzed from the waist down, not just injured and healing. The
>M.A.N.T.I.S. suit wasn't meant for rehab, but as a means for him to be a
>vigilante and save the world.

Yes, but using the M.A.N.T.I.S. suit mucked up his therapy ... the neural
interface was further degrading his nervous system (IIRC ... it's been a
while ...)

>Second, the character I'm building this for is also paralyzed from the
waist
>down, and she's not wild about wheelchairs or invasive surgery jacking
with
>her Talent.
>
>Where Paul's notion about kinesthetic impulses stressing the healing
limb
>came in was something that occurred to me afterward, that this doodad
could
>be used as an aid for physical therapy and rehabilitation for people
wounded
>in car accidents (for example) or who got shot up real good (for
another),
>to keep up their strength and muscle tone while preparing for or
recovering
>from cybernetic implant surgery. And he's got a real good point; I
guess I
>should talk to some physical therapists one of these days and see what
>*they* think.

Well, I got in on that thread after I got back from vacation ... it's a
pain trying to catch up on stuff from the digest ...

>>IF the mage was paralyzed, this would, IMO, work witout a problem.
>>However, it's been a while but I think Patrick's character was only
>>temporarily injured.

>No, Siobhan's paralysis, barring some breakthroughs in MAN AND MACHINE
or
>some interesting magical applications, is permanent.
>
>---
>(>) Texas 2-Step
<SNIP>

Ah. Okay. In that case, this would work fine for her ... The neural
signals are picked up by the simrig but never make it to the legs (kind
of like Siobhan has a built-in partial RAS cut-out ... :) and thus no
problems due to her twitching her legs about whilst trying to control
this thing ...

Have you thought about what the device looks like? Possible a
exoskeleton device could be made but it'd look like extremely bulky
cyberware ... the other option would look like an oversized baby walker
but would be cheaper ... Which do ya thihnk she'll go fer? ;)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 20
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:30:33 +1000
>Uhm ... Query: How does a net of `trodes worn on the HEAD record muscle
>tension in the LEGS?

Because there are nerves which sense muscle tension (damn my memory; I
studied them only last year but I can't remember what they're called), and
said information is transmitted to the brain - where it would be recordable
just like any other nerve signal. If nerve signals are recordable, then you
can record muscle tension in the legs.

Lady Jestyr

- Eagles may soar, but turkeys don't get sucked into jet engines. -
jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr
Message no. 21
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:42:53 -0700
:Uhm ... Query: How does a net of `trodes worn on the HEAD record muscle
:tension in the LEGS?


It doesn't; it records the brains perception of that tension. Actual
tension feedback may be needed to control muscle motion, but the brain can
be trained to work around that (witness the use of "bionic" limbs today-
there is no feedback.

Mongoose
Message no. 22
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:10:43 -0500
On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:30:33 +1000 Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
writes:
>>Uhm ... Query: How does a net of `trodes worn on the HEAD record muscle
>>tension in the LEGS?

>Because there are nerves which sense muscle tension (damn my memory; I
>studied them only last year but I can't remember what they're called),
and
>said information is transmitted to the brain - where it would be
recordable
>just like any other nerve signal. If nerve signals are recordable, then
you
>can record muscle tension in the legs.

Ah. Now I see where Paul was coming from ...but why wouldn't the trodes
be able to pick up signals sent to the muscles in the first place?

>Lady Jestyr
>
>- Eagles may soar, but turkeys don't get sucked into jet engines. -
<SNIP>

Yeah, but how many eagles wind up on Thanksgiving dinner tables? :P~

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 23
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 00:31:25 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:10 PM 9/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Ah. Now I see where Paul was coming from ...but why wouldn't the
trodes
>be able to pick up signals sent to the muscles in the first place?

The same reason why microphones don't also measure room temperature.

When the engineers designed the 'trode net simrig, they had a specific
puropose. Recording sensory data, for use in making baseline sim.
Neural signals for voluntary muscle control would just be unwanted
noise.

I'm not saying that you couldn't pick up the hindbrain nerve impulses
that control the muscles through a 'trode net, just not the 'trode net
detailed in the BBB3. :)

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PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
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Message no. 24
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 00:19:20 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:01 PM 9/13/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
>>No, no, no, NO. :)
>>This thing can only record the sensations of actual muscle tension.
If
>>the person is incapable of voluntarily tensing their muscles, or
even
>>worse, has no sensation below a certain point what so ever, then a
>>trode net that takes baseline sim recordings would not be good for
>>this purpose.

>Uhm ... Query: How does a net of `trodes worn on the HEAD record
muscle
>tension in the LEGS?

It records the _sensation_ of that muscle tenstion that is registering
in the brain. Sensory nerves inside the muscles detect when that
muscle is being tensed, and they send the signal back up to the brain
(where that sensation can be recorded by a trode rig.)

If simsense could only record what was felt by the head, why would
there be so much gratuitous sex in it? :)

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 25
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:46:06 -0500
>>The electrode net that helps accomplish this is more what I had
>>in mind.... I'm mostly out to make a low-level, non-invasive
>>rigger unit with this, specifically limited to moving this walker/
>>brace/frame around.
>
>The electrode net simrig from BBB3 is used for recording baseline
>simsense. It can record the sensations of having tension in one's
>muscles. However, I do not think it can pick up the neural signals
>that would go from the hindbrain out to the body that would tense
>those muscles in the first place.

Not trying to move the muscles in this case, though. At least not directly.
Specifically, I'm trying to drive the servos and electric motors that work
in this robotic exoskeleton gizmo, in ways similar to a rigger unit, only it
doesn't need the level of sophistication or control (this thing isn't meant
for combat work, after all), and it's non-invasive.

Would a trode net, whether in a simrig or from a separate design source,
accomplish this?

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 26
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:52:36 -0500
>>Couple of points. First off, Miles Whatsisname in M.A.N.T.I.S. was
>>paralyzed from the waist down, not just injured and healing. The
>>M.A.N.T.I.S. suit wasn't meant for rehab, but as a means for him to
>>be a vigilante and save the world.
>
>Yes, but using the M.A.N.T.I.S. suit mucked up his therapy ... the neural
>interface was further degrading his nervous system (IIRC ... it's been a
>while ...)

I don't remember that, and it hasn't been that long for me. I've been wrong
before, of course, so I shouldn't be surprised that it could happen again.

>>And he's got a real good point; I guess I should talk to
>>some physical therapists one of these days and see what *they* think.
>
>Well, I got in on that thread after I got back from vacation ... it's a
>pain trying to catch up on stuff from the digest ...

Yeh, I can see where that would be a pain in the ass.

>>No, Siobhan's paralysis, barring some breakthroughs in MAN AND
>>MACHINE or some interesting magical applications, is permanent.
>
>Ah. Okay. In that case, this would work fine for her ... The neural
>signals are picked up by the simrig but never make it to the legs (kind
>of like Siobhan has a built-in partial RAS cut-out ... :) and thus no
>problems due to her twitching her legs about whilst trying to control
>this thing ...

Something like that. It's just coming up with the thing and getting it all
written down on paper (or in electrons, or some damn thing like that...).

>Have you thought about what the device looks like? Possible a
>exoskeleton device could be made but it'd look like extremely bulky
>cyberware ... the other option would look like an oversized baby walker
>but would be cheaper ... Which do ya thihnk she'll go fer? ;)

Shoe? Exoskeleton all the way. She's funny like that.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 27
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:03:11 +0200
According to Paul Gettle, at 0:19 on 14 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> It records the _sensation_ of that muscle tenstion that is registering
> in the brain. Sensory nerves inside the muscles detect when that
> muscle is being tensed, and they send the signal back up to the brain
> (where that sensation can be recorded by a trode rig.)

This is pretty obvious, at least to me -- tension the muscles in your leg,
and you will feel them. If you can feel them, your brain is receiving
signals from there. If your brain is receiving signals, simsense can
record them. Simple, really (except when magic comes into play...).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
On a wave of mutilation...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 28
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 07:54:17 -0400
On Sun, 13 Sep 1998, Patrick Goodman wrote:

->Second, the character I'm building this for is also paralyzed from the waist
->down, and she's not wild about wheelchairs or invasive surgery jacking with
->her Talent.
<snip>
->>IF the mage was paralyzed, this would, IMO, work witout a problem.
->>However, it's been a while but I think Patrick's character was only
->>temporarily injured.
->
->No, Siobhan's paralysis, barring some breakthroughs in MAN AND MACHINE or
->some interesting magical applications, is permanent.

How about a levitate spell on herself (as I haven't found 'flight'
anywhere in canon yet) when she needs to get around. I seem to recall
something about a fellow who was paralyzed entirely (quadreplegic) using
telekinesis on himself to move around (and exercise his muscles
telekinetically). _On the Wings of Pegasus_ I think was the book (non-SR
novel, but a good idea).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 29
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:36:39 -0500
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Date: Monday, September 14, 1998 6:44 AM

>->No, Siobhan's paralysis, barring some breakthroughs in MAN AND MACHINE or
>->some interesting magical applications, is permanent.
>
> How about a levitate spell on herself (as I haven't found 'flight'
>anywhere in canon yet) when she needs to get around.

(A) She's not a full mage, she's an adept.

(B) Her family and friends (with the exception of one brother) would be more
uncomfortable having her float around than they would having her walk around
in the clunky gizmo.

(C) She's deathly afraid of flying. She gets the shakes just thinking about
it.

It would normally be a really good idea, but it doesn't fit in with the
character. <g> Thanks anyway.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 30
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:17:03 -0400
On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Patrick Goodman wrote:

->From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
->Date: Monday, September 14, 1998 6:44 AM
->
->>->No, Siobhan's paralysis, barring some breakthroughs in MAN AND MACHINE or
->>->some interesting magical applications, is permanent.
->>
->> How about a levitate spell on herself (as I haven't found 'flight'
->>anywhere in canon yet) when she needs to get around.
->
->(A) She's not a full mage, she's an adept.
->
->(B) Her family and friends (with the exception of one brother) would be more
->uncomfortable having her float around than they would having her walk around
->in the clunky gizmo.
->
->(C) She's deathly afraid of flying. She gets the shakes just thinking about
->it.
->
->It would normally be a really good idea, but it doesn't fit in with the
->character. <g> Thanks anyway.

How about telekinesis? She could move her body with her mind
still.... and she wouldn't be flying, she'd be walking.... I believe a
Control Body spell is basically telekinetic movement of a body... (as it
is resisted by strength).
Which kind of adept?

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 31
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:15:59 EDT
In a message dated 9/14/1998 6:45:52 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

> How about a levitate spell on herself (as I haven't found 'flight'
> anywhere in canon yet) when she needs to get around. I seem to recall
> something about a fellow who was paralyzed entirely (quadreplegic) using
> telekinesis on himself to move around (and exercise his muscles
> telekinetically). _On the Wings of Pegasus_ I think was the book (non-SR
> novel, but a good idea).
>
Actually, "Levitate" in the SR3 is far more versatile than it has been in
previous versions of the spell(s). It no longer has a maximum altitude (bad
if you are a drunken mage wanting to test out that "envelope theory"), and now
concentrates more on weight and speed rules (which are workable, and nice).
However, it -STILL- doesn't come up with a "Handling Check" for all the fancy
zipping about that a magician could do.

-K (who pictures magicians flying around like "the Strangers" in Dark City
do...)
Message no. 32
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:01:40 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:46 PM 9/13/98 -0500, Patrick wrote:
>Not trying to move the muscles in this case, though. At least not
directly.
>Specifically, I'm trying to drive the servos and electric motors that
work
>in this robotic exoskeleton gizmo, in ways similar to a rigger unit,
only it
>doesn't need the level of sophistication or control (this thing isn't
meant
>for combat work, after all), and it's non-invasive.
>
>Would a trode net, whether in a simrig or from a separate design
source,
>accomplish this?

- From a seperate design source, yes.

I know Mr. Szeto has vetoed rigging via trode net, but what you would
need is a trode net that would pick up signals from the hindbrain (the
same part of the brain that a Vehicle Control Rig interfaces into.)

Personally, from my conception of both decking, and interactive ASIST,
I think any trode net that is capable of substituting for a datajack
could do this. It's just that FASA's never given any offical stats for
that particular trode net.


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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 33
From: Kama <kama@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 17:09:50 -0400
On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, David Foster wrote:

>
> How about a levitate spell on herself (as I haven't found 'flight'
> anywhere in canon yet) when she needs to get around. I seem to recall
> something about a fellow who was paralyzed entirely (quadreplegic) using
> telekinesis on himself to move around (and exercise his muscles
> telekinetically). _On the Wings of Pegasus_ I think was the book (non-SR
> novel, but a good idea).
>

"To Ride Pegasus" was the set of short stories. "Pegasus in Flight" is
the book you were refering to about the paralyzed boy. Both were
written by Ann McCaffery. They are set in the same world as "The Rowan"
but much earlier in the time line.

- Kama
Message no. 34
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:11:44 -0500
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Date: Monday, September 14, 1998 10:10 AM

>->It would normally be a really good idea, but it doesn't fit in with the
>->character. <g> Thanks anyway.
>
>How about telekinesis? She could move her body with her mind
>still.... and she wouldn't be flying, she'd be walking....

Just gotta find someone with telekinesis to help her out. She herself
doesn't have it, and she's no spellcaster, so.... <shrugs>

>I believe a Control Body spell is basically telekinetic movement of a
>body... (as it is resisted by strength).

The question becomes, can someone cast that spell, quicken it, and leave
*her* in control. I don't think you can do that.

> Which kind of adept?

Physical adept, following the way of the grease monkey. She's a tinkerer by
nature, with magical backup, which is why she'd build something like this to
start with. She's got her own little company, a subsidiary of one of my big
local/national corps, and she spends her time being a remarkably well-paid
inventor of stuff that the corp then goes, patents (in her name; they treat
her very well because they don't want her wandering off) the device(s),
licenses the design, and produces them.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 35
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:13:52 -0500
>>Specifically, I'm trying to drive the servos and electric motors
>>that work in this robotic exoskeleton gizmo, in ways similar to a
>>rigger unit....
>>
>>Would a trode net, whether in a simrig or from a separate design
>>source, accomplish this?
>
>- From a seperate design source, yes.

Cool buzz. I figured it would, but it somehow became a battle of honor to
get you to say it.... <g>

>I know Mr. Szeto has vetoed rigging via trode net, but what you would
>need is a trode net that would pick up signals from the hindbrain (the
>same part of the brain that a Vehicle Control Rig interfaces into.)

Okay, gotcha. I'm not going for a complete vehicle rig here, either. I
mean, I don't need to do major maneuvers, hairpin curves, sprints for cover
under fire, and the like; I'll be happy with successfully navigating a
flight of stairs.

>Personally, from my conception of both decking, and interactive ASIST,
>I think any trode net that is capable of substituting for a datajack
>could do this. It's just that FASA's never given any offical stats for
>that particular trode net.

Gonna have to do something about this, I'm sure....

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 36
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 01:36:21 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-15 00:16:47 EDT, you write:

<< >I know Mr. Szeto has vetoed rigging via trode net, but what you would
>need is a trode net that would pick up signals from the hindbrain (the
>same part of the brain that a Vehicle Control Rig interfaces into.)

Okay, gotcha. I'm not going for a complete vehicle rig here, either. I
mean, I don't need to do major maneuvers, hairpin curves, sprints for cover
under fire, and the like; I'll be happy with successfully navigating a
flight of stairs.
>>

I would think a network of microswitch pressure sensors in the limbs would
provide enough feedback for this sort of thing. No trodes involved at all,
would reduce quickness by 1 while using it, but no essance loss, trodes, or
anything else to worry about. Just put it on and go. (Note, this sort of
control system was shown on the loaders in Aliens from waaaay back in the 80's
Message no. 37
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 00:52:41 -0500
>I would think a network of microswitch pressure sensors in the limbs would
>provide enough feedback for this sort of thing. No trodes involved at all,
>would reduce quickness by 1 while using it, but no essance loss, trodes, or
>anything else to worry about. Just put it on and go.

You missed the part that said the girl who'd be wearing this was paraplegic,
didn't you?

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 38
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 02:46:22 EDT
In a message dated 9/14/1998 3:19:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
RunnerPaul@*****.COM writes:

>
> I know Mr. Szeto has vetoed rigging via trode net, but what you would
> need is a trode net that would pick up signals from the hindbrain (the
> same part of the brain that a Vehicle Control Rig interfaces into.)
>
> Personally, from my conception of both decking, and interactive ASIST,
> I think any trode net that is capable of substituting for a datajack
> could do this. It's just that FASA's never given any offical stats for
> that particular trode net.
>
Wait a second, I think you answered your own question as to why a Trode Rig
wouldn't work for Rigging. The connectivity set-up would be different. At
least, IMO. VCR-like interace is more reactive or *instinctual* in nature,
while Decking is a "higher order of magnitude" region of the mind and it's
interactivity.

Part of the reason why the VCR and Wired Reflexes are no compatible without a
Reflex Trigger or VCR Trigger being used in some manner. They both work with
the Motor Cortex, where as the Matrix/ASSIST works with the Cerebral (higher
end) Cortex. Trode rigs are set for receptivity with the Cerebral interface.

Yes, I *do* believe you could rig one up, but it would take some more work.
Also, IMO, if you did this, you would not be performing any actual overriding
of the bodies own *conscious* Motor Functions, instead performing two sets of
actions, and probably interacting badly because of it.

-K
Message no. 39
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 03:00:06 EDT
In a message dated 9/14/1998 4:49:19 PM US Eastern Standard Time, remo@***.NET
writes:

>
> >I believe a Control Body spell is basically telekinetic movement of a
> >body... (as it is resisted by strength).
>
> The question becomes, can someone cast that spell, quicken it, and leave
> *her* in control. I don't think you can do that.
>
Now *this* is actually a method I was thinking of, and you *could* have a
Control Actions (limited target) designed, and have an Anchoring developed
from there (so she could turn it on and off to keep it from getting destroyed
by an outside source). With the concept of "Linking", you could
"Link" the
control of the Anchoring to the individual that is using it.

Of course, with a nasty imagination, someone else could override the control
of the spell possibly...

-K
Message no. 40
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 03:27:09 -0400
> In a message dated 9/14/1998 4:49:19 PM US Eastern Standard Time, remo@***.NET
> writes:
>
> >
> > >I believe a Control Body spell is basically telekinetic movement of a
> > >body... (as it is resisted by strength).
> >
> > The question becomes, can someone cast that spell, quicken it, and leave
> > *her* in control. I don't think you can do that.
> >

And if you could, you would effectively have created a magical item
usable by a mundane. I think Big D left a clause in his will for that one.
I doubt it's IMPOSSIBLE, but if there's a method for doing it, it's not
commonly known in 2060.

--Sean
Message no. 41
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 03:48:39 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-15 01:59:46 EDT, you write:

<< >I would think a network of microswitch pressure sensors in the limbs would
>provide enough feedback for this sort of thing. No trodes involved at all,
>would reduce quickness by 1 while using it, but no essance loss, trodes, or
>anything else to worry about. Just put it on and go.

You missed the part that said the girl who'd be wearing this was paraplegic,
didn't you? >>

Apparently I did... D'OH!!!!
Message no. 42
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:29:02 -0400
On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Sean McCrohan wrote:

->> In a message dated 9/14/1998 4:49:19 PM US Eastern Standard Time, remo@***.NET
->> writes:
->> >
->> > >I believe a Control Body spell is basically telekinetic movement of a
->> > >body... (as it is resisted by strength).
->> >
->> > The question becomes, can someone cast that spell, quicken it, and leave
->> > *her* in control. I don't think you can do that.
->
-> And if you could, you would effectively have created a magical item
->usable by a mundane. I think Big D left a clause in his will for that one.
->I doubt it's IMPOSSIBLE, but if there's a method for doing it, it's not
->commonly known in 2060.

Mundanes can use Anchored effects if they have the activation link
and perform a Willpower (6) test, if memory serves. Kind of like "SHAZAM!
<praying it works>" kinda situation.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 43
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:11:42 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:46 AM 9/15/98 -0400, K wrote:
>> Personally, from my conception of both decking, and interactive
ASIST,
>> I think any trode net that is capable of substituting for a
datajack
>> could do this. It's just that FASA's never given any offical stats
for
>> that particular trode net.
>>
>Wait a second, I think you answered your own question as to why a
Trode Rig
>wouldn't work for Rigging. The connectivity set-up would be
different. At
>least, IMO. VCR-like interace is more reactive or *instinctual* in
nature,
>while Decking is a "higher order of magnitude" region of the mind and
it's
>interactivity.

Oh, I don't have any problem with not being able to rig with just a
trode net. The shear complexity of being able to map a vehicle or a
building onto the regular motor responses should require specialized
implants, I think.

However, I do think that a trode net would be able to intercept motor
commands for the purposes of controling a simulated humanoid form in
the matrix, even if only for Matrix Chat-Spaces and Gaming.
(And it's not too far of a step from controlling a humanoid matrix
icon, to controlling a walker frame)

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Message no. 44
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Trode net stats are listed in SR3!!!
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:11:11 -0500
>> > >I believe a Control Body spell is basically telekinetic movement of a
>> > >body... (as it is resisted by strength).
>> >
>> > The question becomes, can someone cast that spell, quicken it, and
leave
>> > *her* in control. I don't think you can do that.
>
> And if you could, you would effectively have created a magical item
>usable by a mundane. I think Big D left a clause in his will for that one.

Siobhan, the character in question, is an adept. I don't know that the
clause in the will included adepts among the mundane, and I don't think I
would anyway.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

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