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Message no. 1
From: Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.NET>
Subject: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 14:46:52 -0500
A player in my weekly group recently rebuilt a mid-level troll sam with
about 2mil in cash. Through bioware and cyberware he was able to crank
his bod up to 14 and str up to 14.

In our last run, he came around the corner and there were six guys with
assault rifles. He killed one on his action, and the other five openned
up with two bursts each, hitting him all 10 times (trying to punish him
for being silly enough to take 5 guys with no cover and make this a
learning experience).

He took 5 11D bursts and 5 11S bursts. He had 8 points of balistic,
dropping the target number to 3.

He took no damage.

Now I realize it's possible to hurt someone like this in the game with
heavier weapons, but in reality your average shmo won't be carrying around
much more than an assault rifle imo. I've always liked the fact that in
shadowrun no matter how tough you are a pack of guys can kill you, but
suddenly I'm faced with an example where this is no longer the case. A
pack of guys with guns didn't even scratch this guy.

Suggestions on how to deal with this? Are there some armor-ablative rules
I'm not aware of that might help?

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:43:00 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Drew Curtis wrote:

[snip: Super Troll]

/ Now I realize it's possible to hurt someone like this in the game with
/ heavier weapons, but in reality your average shmo won't be carrying around
/ much more than an assault rifle imo. I've always liked the fact that in
/ shadowrun no matter how tough you are a pack of guys can kill you, but
/ suddenly I'm faced with an example where this is no longer the case. A
/ pack of guys with guns didn't even scratch this guy.
/
/ Suggestions on how to deal with this? Are there some armor-ablative rules
/ I'm not aware of that might help?

Armor degradation is in Fields of Fire.

Also, you might want to check out weapons that don't cause physical
damage like: neurostun, stun battons, tasers, netguns, paintguns with
chemical coctail pellets, or acid pellets.

And then there are those fun illusion spells like Chaos.

And don't forget critter powers like Confusion, Accident, and Alienation.

And the number one fastest way to get a character out of their armor
(it's worked ever since AD$D :) -- toss them in the water. Given the
choice between drowning or shrugging off that heavy armor, the armor
usually ends up at the bottom of the pool/lake/ocean.

Have fun :)

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 3
From: Kevin Gallagher <kgallagh@*****.VILL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 15:45:51 -0500
Drew Curtis wrote:

> A player in my weekly group recently rebuilt a mid-level troll sam with
> about 2mil in cash. Through bioware and cyberware he was able to crank
> his bod up to 14 and str up to 14.
>
> In our last run, he came around the corner and there were six guys with
> assault rifles. He killed one on his action, and the other five openned
> up with two bursts each, hitting him all 10 times (trying to punish him
> for being silly enough to take 5 guys with no cover and make this a
> learning experience).
>
> He took 5 11D bursts and 5 11S bursts. He had 8 points of balistic,
> dropping the target number to 3.
>
> He took no damage.
>
> Now I realize it's possible to hurt someone like this in the game with
> heavier weapons, but in reality your average shmo won't be carrying around
> much more than an assault rifle imo. I've always liked the fact that in
> shadowrun no matter how tough you are a pack of guys can kill you, but
> suddenly I'm faced with an example where this is no longer the case. A
> pack of guys with guns didn't even scratch this guy.
>
> Suggestions on how to deal with this? Are there some armor-ablative rules
> I'm not aware of that might help?
>
> Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
>

A couple of suggestions..
1. Don't allow such a large increase at one time.
2. APDS rounds do great for such. 1/2 ballistic armor rating (as I recall)
is used to
lower the power of the weapon.
3. Have a building drop on him :).
4. Spells that do not take armor into account for their power.
5. Defective Bio/Cyber wear. Always a nice thing to play with :)

Kevin Gallagher
Introverted Extrovert = Looking in for a way out.
Message no. 4
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:05:05 -0500
Quoting Drew Curtis (dcurtis@***.NET):
> He took 5 11D bursts and 5 11S bursts. He had 8 points of balistic,
> dropping the target number to 3.
>
> He took no damage.
>

Okay. He has a 14 Body, +1 for his natural Dermal Armor, giving
him 15 dice to roll, neglecting Combat Pool, and any other cyber he might
have. To completely scale out a Deadly Wound, he needs 8 successes. If
I've been paying proper attention in my Statistics class this quarter, his
chance of TAKING DAMAGE from an 11D with 8 points of Ballistic Armor is, um,
approximately 8.8%. Which is to say, he has a 91.1% chance of being uninjured.
So, I'm not surprised he got away with it five times in a row. (By the
way, his chance of resisting the 11S without injury is about 99.14%). And
remember, that's without any Combat Pool.
Now, suppose they'd been using APDS ammo. Now he's rolling against a
7 (effectively a 6) instead of a 3. Now his chance of taking no injury is
just 0.1 %. In fact, he has a 26% chance of taking a Deadly Wound (though his
most probably injury is a Serious, at about 50%).
So, there's your answer. While his Body helped, it wasn't really what
made him invulnerable to their guns. It was his ARMOR. The same character,
unarmored, has a 80% chance of taking a Deadly wound from an 11D, and a
19% chance of taking a Serious.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 5
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:57:51 -0700
Drew Curtis wrote:

> A player in my weekly group recently rebuilt a mid-level troll sam with
> about 2mil in cash. Through bioware and cyberware he was able to crank
> his bod up to 14 and str up to 14.
>
> In our last run, he came around the corner and there were six guys with
> assault rifles. He killed one on his action, and the other five openned
> up with two bursts each, hitting him all 10 times (trying to punish him
> for being silly enough to take 5 guys with no cover and make this a
> learning experience).
>
> He took 5 11D bursts and 5 11S bursts. He had 8 points of balistic,
> dropping the target number to 3.
>
> He took no damage.
>
> Now I realize it's possible to hurt someone like this in the game with
> heavier weapons, but in reality your average shmo won't be carrying around
> much more than an assault rifle imo. I've always liked the fact that in
> shadowrun no matter how tough you are a pack of guys can kill you, but
> suddenly I'm faced with an example where this is no longer the case. A
> pack of guys with guns didn't even scratch this guy.
>
> Suggestions on how to deal with this? Are there some armor-ablative rules
> I'm not aware of that might help?

Couple of questions. Are you playing SR3 rules? If so then what is the
troll's quickness? Ballistic armor of eight on a low quickness troll is going
to fuck with him in many ways. Also switch from doing two bursts to one full
auto shot of about six rounds. The damage would jump up to 14D which raises
his target number to six to resist which makes a big difference in my
experience. There are always different types of ammo to throw in there as
well. Throw in the EX-explo and troll boy is now resisting 5 attacks at 16D
base. Even with the 8 ballistic armor that's pretty beefy.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

Caric
Message no. 6
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:08:11 EST
In a message dated 10/29/98 3:32:47 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dcurtis@***.NET writes:

> A player in my weekly group recently rebuilt a mid-level troll sam with
> about 2mil in cash. Through bioware and cyberware he was able to crank
> his bod up to 14 and str up to 14.
>
> In our last run, he came around the corner and there were six guys with
> assault rifles. He killed one on his action, and the other five openned
> up with two bursts each, hitting him all 10 times (trying to punish him
> for being silly enough to take 5 guys with no cover and make this a
> learning experience).
>
> He took 5 11D bursts and 5 11S bursts. He had 8 points of balistic,
> dropping the target number to 3.
>
> He took no damage.
>
> Now I realize it's possible to hurt someone like this in the game with
> heavier weapons, but in reality your average shmo won't be carrying around
> much more than an assault rifle imo. I've always liked the fact that in
> shadowrun no matter how tough you are a pack of guys can kill you, but
> suddenly I'm faced with an example where this is no longer the case. A
> pack of guys with guns didn't even scratch this guy.
>
> Suggestions on how to deal with this? Are there some armor-ablative rules
> I'm not aware of that might help?

I empathize with you completely, as there was a pc around here with the same
situation (17 Body), but on the flip-sode the player also did not have much
ballistic armor (long coat).

Here are a couple of questions for you then ...

1. If the 8 points of ballistic armor exceed the trolls quickness then drop
his combat pool by one for every 2 points of armor above his quickness.

2. If the troll is going to be shot and does not drop when they all fired in
burst fire mode, then perhaps you should have the next guards first try burst
fire, which would then give them a reason to open up in -FULL AUTO- mode, and
that is certain to cause a significant amount of damage to him ...

3. Have the troll run into something with a weapon that does serious amounts
of damage ... like any heavy weapon ... or something far more deadlier ...
like grenades in an enclosed space ...

However, I would like for you to point something out to this player ... if you
have to go to extremes just to hurt this pc, have the player consider that the
level of firepower necessary to hurt the pc is also going to end up getting
the other player's pcs killed.

We had conversations about the player's troll here, and he decided to retire
the pc for now, and is playing something along the lines of a street sammie
again or something similar. He saw the point of the situation ... if he did
not then I would have gone to extremes just to hurt the pc and the rest of the
team badly as a lesson in mortality ...

Oh, and for giggles, the troll of the player was hurt in the home games here
about a month and a half ago. A rinky-dink local security dude fired a SMG on
full auto at him, and managed to cause a Light physical wound. Needless to
say the player tried to have his pc hire the guy, almost on the spot too. He
was impressed too.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 7
From: Paul Meyer <pmeyer@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:11:40 -0800
Drew Curtis wrote:
> [supertroll built on double "A" starting resources - itself not a good
idea for a PC]
> Now I realize it's possible to hurt someone like this in the game
with
> heavier weapons, but in reality your average shmo won't be
carrying around
> much more than an assault rifle imo. I've always liked the fact
that in
> Shadowrun no matter how tough you are a pack of guys can kill you,
but
> suddenly I'm faced with an example where this is no longer the
case. A
> pack of guys with guns didn't even scratch this guy.

There are lots of answers to this. Most of them DON'T involve a pack
of street-level thugs, because for 2 million nuyen you should be pretty much
able to wade through mooks - but beware the time one gets lucky, or the
occasional ringer in the pack (heh heh).

Answer #1: Spells.

Armor doesn't stop Combat spells (even Physical ones, but a 14 body
against a 6 force is still pretty good, and more than one magician in a
group is a special circumstance by definition). Most magicians who take only
one combat spell use a mana spell, though, because most people you end up
wanting to blast away at have better Body than Willpower. That troll
shouldn't have more than a 6 WP, and quite likely has less unless you REALLY
let him build a minor deity.

If you want to ruin his day instead of killing him, stun spells are
good (see below), or you can go with Overstimulation (SR2) or Chaos or any
number of nonstandard illusion spells. (My Mongoose shaman's favorite is
"False Action", a mana illusion that makes everyone ELSE see the target
perform an action they didn't do - like shooting at one of their buddies but
missing...)

Oh, and don't forget a ranged "Decrease Cybered Intelligence" spell.
At INT zero a character is incapable of useful action...

Answer #2: Bullets don't kill people, people kill people

Impact-armor weapons. Tasers. Gas. Narcoject.

Answer #3: They're loaded for troll

Hey, boys, I hear some super-wired-up troll geeked a bunch of our
chummers over in Redmond yesterday. Freddy got us a line on a couple of
AVMs. Let's go for payback!

Answer #4: Man's gotta take a leak sometime

Hey boys, I hear some super-wired-up troll geeked a bunch of our
chummers over in Redmond yesterday. Let's pass the hat to hire Dreme to take
him out!

Answer #5: Get lost, fragbrain

I'm sorry, Tick. Sure, you can wade through a dozen gangers without
a scratch, but the rest of us can't. You're good in a fight, but when their
chummers come gunning for you, it's the rest of us who end up taking the
stray rounds. Call us if you decide to stop showing off.
Message no. 8
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:31:51 -0500
At 02:46 PM 10/29/98 , you wrote:
>A player in my weekly group recently rebuilt a mid-level troll sam with
>about 2mil in cash. Through bioware and cyberware he was able to crank
>his bod up to 14 and str up to 14.

Okay, I'll make an assumption that he started out 10 in both, and got up to
14 in strength through muscle replacement/augmentation, which will also
increase his quickness. That gives our troll here a max Quickness of 9 if
he started out with a 5. Check out what his quickness is, look at that 8
points of ballistic and how he gets it, and then look at the armor rules in
the gear section. I rarely have players running around with more than 5
points of ballistic, and sometimes less than that.

>He took 5 11D bursts and 5 11S bursts. He had 8 points of balistic,
>dropping the target number to 3.

With that many bursts coming into him, plus possible loss of Combat Pool
from armor, he's not Dodging many of those. So that means he's soaking
directly. A Deadly burst needs 8 successes to stage down to nothing. That's
out of 14 dice, a little more than half successes. Doable. But none of
these guys have more than 1 success? At Short range (around the corner)
with a plain laser sight TN is 3. A normal trained guard with Rifles 3,
Combat Pool 3 is going to get 3, 4 sucesses. At most it seemed like the
bursts were staged up once for the Deadly's and not at all for the others.

Now, Troll needs 11, 12 out of 14 dice to be successes in order to take no
damage. Not impossible, but not likely either. Especially after going
through it 5 times. Maybe he only takes a Light Wound on each burst, but
they start to add up.

>Suggestions on how to deal with this? Are there some armor-ablative rules
>I'm not aware of that might help?

Definitely check out the armor layering rules (somewhere around p 250 at a
guess, but in the gear section somewhere). Players think hard about 3-4
layers of armor after those penalties start adding up. Also look at the
armor degradation rules in FoF.

Or maybe have 4 guards do short controlled bursts while the 5th goes full
auto. Base damage for all 10 rounds hitting is 18D + 3 boxes overflow. That
means that Troll needs 10's to succeed. But if he spends all of his combat
pool dodging all of the other bursts, he doesn't have any left to dodge the
last guy who only has one success on his panic fire. No Dodge, he soaks it
all and definitely takes wounds there.

Just off of the top of my head.

Sommers
Homepage comming soon!
Message no. 9
From: Patrick Cotter <evilbunny@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:35:56 PST
>A player in my weekly group recently rebuilt a mid-level troll sam with
>about 2mil in cash. Through bioware and cyberware he was able to crank
>his bod up to 14 and str up to 14.
>
>In our last run, he came around the corner and there were six guys with
>assault rifles. He killed one on his action, and the other five
openned
>up with two bursts each, hitting him all 10 times (trying to punish him
>for being silly enough to take 5 guys with no cover and make this a
>learning experience).
>
>He took 5 11D bursts and 5 11S bursts. He had 8 points of balistic,
>dropping the target number to 3.
>
>He took no damage.
>
>Now I realize it's possible to hurt someone like this in the game with
>heavier weapons, but in reality your average shmo won't be carrying
around
>much more than an assault rifle imo. I've always liked the fact that
in
>shadowrun no matter how tough you are a pack of guys can kill you, but
>suddenly I'm faced with an example where this is no longer the case. A
>pack of guys with guns didn't even scratch this guy.
>
>Suggestions on how to deal with this? Are there some armor-ablative
rules
>I'm not aware of that might help?

Well, what's his will? A mana bolt doesn't really care if you're
massive or strong. Also, how much armor is on his head? NPCs can do
called shots.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 10
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:45:33 -0500
Quoting Sommers (sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU):
> With that many bursts coming into him, plus possible loss of Combat Pool
> from armor, he's not Dodging many of those. So that means he's soaking
> directly. A Deadly burst needs 8 successes to stage down to nothing. That's
> out of 14 dice, a little more than half successes. Doable. But none of
> these guys have more than 1 success? At Short range (around the corner)
> with a plain laser sight TN is 3. A normal trained guard with Rifles 3,
> Combat Pool 3 is going to get 3, 4 sucesses. At most it seemed like the
> bursts were staged up once for the Deadly's and not at all for the others.

Whoops! When I did my statistics, I forgot to take into account that
'Deadly' hits might have had extra successes beyond Deadly, etc. However,
the point still holds - it's the armor that's the problem here, more than
the Body, though the high Body rating definitely helps. How'd he get an 8
Ballistic, anyway? Security armor? Remember that only two layers of armor
have effect, and the lighter of those two only adds half of its rating.
Level 3 Formfit, plus an Armored Jacket, only gives a Ballistic of 7...
I assume the last point came either from a helmet, a shield, or cyber.
Speaking of shields...did everyone notice that they fixed them in SR3?
Well, mostly, at least. IMHO, they should have made the melee penalty
2-Reach, min 0, instead of making it a +2 penalty, negated by Reach 2 or
greater. It's a lot easier to fight with shield and sword (reach 1) than
shield and knife (reach 0).

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 11
From: Jason Cummings <CellSales9@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:35:29 EST
This has also happened to me once. I enforce the following rule: Everytime a
player is hit with 4S or more damage, his armor degrades to 1/2 of its rating.
That will probably take care of your problem.

Sabre
A good plan today is better than the perfect plan tomorrow.
Message no. 12
From: Jason Cummings <CellSales9@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:40:37 EST
In a message dated 98-10-29 16:14:26 EST, you write:

<< Answer #2: Bullets don't kill people, people kill people

Impact-armor weapons. Tasers. Gas. Narcoject.
>>
And don't forget the Dikoted Katana...

Sabre
Message no. 13
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:11:58 -0800
> A player in my weekly group recently rebuilt a mid-level troll sam with
> about 2mil in cash. Through bioware and cyberware he was able to crank
> his bod up to 14 and str up to 14.
>
> In our last run, he came around the corner and there were six guys with
> assault rifles. He killed one on his action, and the other five openned
> up with two bursts each, hitting him all 10 times (trying to punish him
> for being silly enough to take 5 guys with no cover and make this a
> learning experience).
>
> He took 5 11D bursts and 5 11S bursts. He had 8 points of balistic,
> dropping the target number to 3.
>
> He took no damage.
>
> Now I realize it's possible to hurt someone like this in the game with
> heavier weapons, but in reality your average shmo won't be carrying
around
> much more than an assault rifle imo. I've always liked the fact that in
> shadowrun no matter how tough you are a pack of guys can kill you, but
> suddenly I'm faced with an example where this is no longer the case. A
> pack of guys with guns didn't even scratch this guy.
>
> Suggestions on how to deal with this? Are there some armor-ablative
rules
> I'm not aware of that might help?
>
> Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
> http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
> Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points
between.

Ballistic 8?!? What's he wearing for armor? If it's security stuff, get his
ass arrested to teach him how to be descrete. And now for a lesson in
diversity. Look at your average SWAT team. 4 men. 4 sidearms, 4 SMGs. One
demolitions speciallist, one shotgun, one sledgehammer.
Not every one of your opposition should have the same gun. Give some of
them shotguns. With explosive or AP ammo. Give one guy a arm gyromount so
he can plug out 15 rounds. Hell, use the coverfire rules and target just
that one space where the Troll is.
He's obviously abused a rule somewhere, so do it yourself. But, by all
means, if he's wearing some heavy armor, get him busted for it. Or hit him
with a truck. Moving at 150kph.
And aimed shots. I never get tired of telling people to aim. I've taken
down lesser Dragons with single shots from a Manhunter with those before.
Aim for the head, neck, whatever. Somewhere where there's little or no
armor coverage. And stage the damage one level higher for it.
Message no. 14
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:18:02 -0800
> Couple of questions. Are you playing SR3 rules? If so then what is the
> troll's quickness? Ballistic armor of eight on a low quickness troll is
going
> to fuck with him in many ways. Also switch from doing two bursts to one
full
> auto shot of about six rounds. The damage would jump up to 14D which
raises
> his target number to six to resist which makes a big difference in my
> experience. There are always different types of ammo to throw in there
as
> well. Throw in the EX-explo and troll boy is now resisting 5 attacks at
16D
> base. Even with the 8 ballistic armor that's pretty beefy.
>
> Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.
>
> Caric

That's something I missed. Definitely use FullAuto. Get the most recoil
compensation you can, shock pads, gyros, the works. Plus the Fields of Fire
strength rules. One of the other players in my group can fire 8 rounds from
his M22a2 before he feels recoil. And if you're really stumped after all
this, use some _really_ nasty rounds, APDS-EX. Half ballistic, +2 power.
Even a light pistol can take down most people, but in case of Troll, use
shotgun.
And bring in some guy with an ancient .30-06. BIG holes.
Message no. 15
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 01:23:36 +0000
Drew Curtis wrote:

> A player in my weekly group recently rebuilt a mid-level troll sam with
> about 2mil in cash. Through bioware and cyberware he was able to crank
> his bod up to 14 and str up to 14.

No biggie, that's muscle augment 4 and titanium bone lacing. You can
get that for (urm..) 155 K (but the essence'll kill you). Okay, all
alpha, that's 310K, you can probably cram in dermal sheath lvl2 as
well without going out of reach of a B tech priority. Using A for
attributes, that could be 6,5,6,3,4,6 ->race 11,4,10,1,2,6 ->
cyber 16,8,14,1,2,6. (I'd use the B for a sorcery adept and call the
beast Balrog, your friendly neighbourhood Sons of Sauron fanatic
sword - wielding pyromaniac, but that's me (That's what you get if
you kill off M, Ed. ;).

Our cybered troll friend above here is a bit slow on the uptake, a
bit slow in reactions, but otherwise fairly hard to damage. The
original example said 8 ballistic. That sounds like jacket + lined
coat + bone lacing. (5+4/2+1=8). He needs 1 more quickness to avoid
penalties - that's no problem, just drop one int, raise quickness by
one. (Unless you count bone lacing as layered armor.).

So, he can do it, it's legal, and layering armor rules won't hinder
this mother.

It's impossible to be harder to affect with magic without being a
mage (Or, marginally, by being a dwarf). With that body and a few
choice pieces of bioware he can handle toxins and water equally. (Or
that genetic trick, or both.).

Long experience in GM'ing has taught me the one, best way to hurt
this guy. One word.. 'no', or, quoting the first chapter of the
'behind the scenes' in SR2, 'Not in my game you won't!'. It depends a
bit on how you run the game, though. In a game where the next guy in
line has WR3 w. accessories, if being extreme is okay, then by all
means, since he's as specialized at taking it as he is, let him
survive, and let the fast guy deal out the damage as fast as they
come. There's other ways than by being the 'tank' you can be
extremely effective. In fact, the tank outlined above would be
fairly useless for anything except surviving and punching big holes
in things. (Power level 18? *shiver*). That can be fun, for a while,
but would probably get old. The only problem, if you allow this type
of character, is if the rest of the team isn't similarly extreme. If
they aren't, then it is a problem. It would be solved the easiest
if you said 'please make him less extreme' in the first place... but
that's old eagle-eye hindsight speaking. You could pull out big
enough guns that they'd take him down but that would also take out
anyone else in the area. That option has allready been used, if you
recall the discussion on edges and flaws a while back, with the guys
that took 300 flaw points. The GM had them surrounded by a dozen
trolls with gyro-mounted miniguns, killing everyone and everything in
the area until dead. Understandably, the guys that didn't have 300
flaw points were a bit miffed about being nuked. It's probably not
the best option. Then I suggested (the guy in question being hunted
by CIA, KGB, and every other organization in existence) a sniper
shooting him in the head. Even our friendly troll would be dead from
that quite easy. (Ranger Sniper rifle, adept sniper (say,
6(12) stealth and 7(14) ranger arms spec, it's no question at all
who's dead and who's not.). It's still just the 'bigger' gun
solution, though. (Or variations, with narcoject, gas, etc.). Which
leads to a rather important....

Question: What kind of solution do you want?

Do you want a solution on how to hurt him and only him, to exploit
his weaknesses, so to speak? If so we need to know more about him. 2
mill cyber and 14 str & bod isn't enough. Most trolls are as socially
intelligent as an armadillo, and as perceptive as a slug. (Which
might be unfair to slugs and armadillos, I don't know.). That doesn't
mean he can't have 4 charisma and pheromone boost and an encephalon
and cerebral booster, for instance, making him more charismatic than
Hitler and smarter than Einstein, so it'd be dangerous to assume he's
big & stupid. (Assuming bio since he wasn't a starting char, but a
rebuilt one.).

Do you want a solution on how to hurt him and the rest of the team
equally? Then you need situations where defensive combat pool is the
key and body is nearly irrelevant. HMG's at full auto and few
successes is the key. (Or assault cannons). Mostly, you either dodge
or go down - body won't make much of a difference. Firing 8 shots, a
HMG does 18D. With 8 armor, that's a TN of 10, with 14 body that's an
average of 1 success, not enough to stage down. Dodging is against TN
6 - manageable but deadly for anyone. (Our friendly troll might take
a severe instead of deadly, while everyone else hasn't a chance at
ALL if they fail to dodge, though, but that's the advantage of 14
body.).

You want to nuke'em all? 9 kilos C-12 placed by a demolition expert
is one failsafe method. There's lots of methods, similar to all is
the label 'overkill', and they're easy to use, hard to justify.

Regards,
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 16
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:19:31 -0500
>He took 5 11D bursts and 5 11S bursts. He had 8 points of balistic,
>dropping the target number to 3.

The problem is not so much his high stats, but his high armor value. Rolling
eight fives (say) with 15 dice is significantly more difficult than rolling
eight threes. The answer, therefore is to attack in ways that circumvent
armor.

For these kinds of guys: mana combat spells. Avoids armor, with added bonus
of attacking Willpower, not Body. Spirit powers are also wicked on walking
tanks, because the usually involve resisted success tests with _Essence_,
which means the tank is usually wicked hosed.

Wordman
Message no. 17
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:26:48 -0500
>Check out what his quickness is, look at that 8
>points of ballistic and how he gets it, and then look at the armor rules in
>the gear section.

Note that this rule only applies to armor being worn. Armor rating from
cyber does not suffer from this penalty (at least that's how I would rule
it). 8 points of ballistic is possible with a secure jacket, orthoskin,
titanium bone lacing, and a cybertorso with 5 points of soft armor.

Wordman
Message no. 18
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:56:37 EST
In a message dated 10/29/98 12:42:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:

> And the number one fastest way to get a character out of their armor
> (it's worked ever since AD$D :) -- toss them in the water. Given the
> choice between drowning or shrugging off that heavy armor, the armor
> usually ends up at the bottom of the pool/lake/ocean.
But I thought we decided back int eh height/wieght discussion that Trolls
floated :-)

Me, I would just call out the HTR and SWAT for a troll with such obvious
illegalities.
Message no. 19
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:07:29 -0800
> > And the number one fastest way to get a character out of their armor
> > (it's worked ever since AD$D :) -- toss them in the water. Given the
> > choice between drowning or shrugging off that heavy armor, the armor
> > usually ends up at the bottom of the pool/lake/ocean.
> But I thought we decided back int eh height/wieght discussion that Trolls
> floated :-)
>
> Me, I would just call out the HTR and SWAT for a troll with such obvious
> illegalities.

I don't know if he's got any obvious illegal stuff. He could be layering an
armor jacket, form fitting armor and bone lacing or orthoskin. A ballistic
8 rating doesn't neccesarily mean heavy armor anymore.
But a guy like that would probably attract heavy guns tho.
Message no. 20
From: Andrew Gwilliam <andrew@********.NET.UK>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 01:28:25 +0000
Drew Curtis wrote:

> A player in my weekly group recently rebuilt a mid-level troll sam with
> about 2mil in cash. Through bioware and cyberware he was able to crank
> his bod up to 14 and str up to 14.
>
> In our last run, he came around the corner and there were six guys with
> assault rifles. He killed one on his action, and the other five openned
> up with two bursts each, hitting him all 10 times (trying to punish him
> for being silly enough to take 5 guys with no cover and make this a
> learning experience).
>
> He took 5 11D bursts and 5 11S bursts. He had 8 points of balistic,
> dropping the target number to 3.
>
> He took no damage.
>
> Now I realize it's possible to hurt someone like this in the game with
> heavier weapons, but in reality your average shmo won't be carrying around
> much more than an assault rifle imo. I've always liked the fact that in
> shadowrun no matter how tough you are a pack of guys can kill you, but
> suddenly I'm faced with an example where this is no longer the case. A
> pack of guys with guns didn't even scratch this guy.
>
> Suggestions on how to deal with this? Are there some armor-ablative rules
> I'm not aware of that might help?

A couple of suggestions use neurotoxins with a squirt or narcojet gun or mana
spells will probably hurt him. Also APDS ammunition (found in 'street sams')
will half his armour unless its hardened. Or use flame throwers, if his armour
isn't full security or military it will be less effective.

KO
Message no. 21
From: laughingman <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 02:54:11 +0100
And so it came to happen that Drew Curtis wrote:
>
> A player in my weekly group recently rebuilt a mid-level troll sam with
> about 2mil in cash. Through bioware and cyberware he was able to crank
> his bod up to 14 and str up to 14.
>
> In our last run, he came around the corner and there were six guys with
> assault rifles. He killed one on his action, and the other five openned
> up with two bursts each, hitting him all 10 times (trying to punish him
> for being silly enough to take 5 guys with no cover and make this a
> learning experience).

Depends on the situation where this whole mayhem was done. Was it in a
Assmebly hall? Good, just let one of the guys shoot something from the
above so that it falls down on poor Troll. Impact Damage.
Was it in some corridors in an office building (or concernbuilding
then)? Fine, Let those Corps think "Duh, heavy armor there, quite big,
better run for cover and call in Elementalservices from our
Wizzboy/girl".
Was it in an open area? Better, let a rigger suddenly open up fire with
a Drone, or maybe just take the footage of the Runners. That should be
enough to screw the whole team or just the Troll real bad.
And if nothing helps, just let the Corpers aim for the Weapon of the
Troll, most of those Weapons aren't that small in size so they should do
it with the usual +4 for a called shot. BTW, in corridors, a grenade is
real good to frag someone, Milspecarmor or not.

> He took 5 11D bursts and 5 11S bursts. He had 8 points of balistic,
> dropping the target number to 3.

As mentioned earlier by someone APDS goes real cool than. Or Gel rounds,
as the Impactarmor most of the time is not that high. And Don't forget
that those Corpers should not only had made 1 success or maybe 2 they
most of the time would get 3 to 5 on average, that is hard to roll down.
And use for this Character Karma for the NPC's, after all they where in
a real threatening and dangerous situation, so let them roll those
misrolls once more to pack more stopping force.

> He took no damage.
>
> Now I realize it's possible to hurt someone like this in the game with
> heavier weapons, but in reality your average shmo won't be carrying around
> much more than an assault rifle imo. I've always liked the fact that in
> shadowrun no matter how tough you are a pack of guys can kill you, but
> suddenly I'm faced with an example where this is no longer the case. A
> pack of guys with guns didn't even scratch this guy.

Depends on the weapons beeing used. take the Savalette Guardian with
APDS. Or the Rugger Thunderbolt. Even EX-EX should do the trick then.
And Corps do have Armor too. If the average Corp guard comes under heavy
fire and it seems that the norms get cut to pieces the special forces
could come in, but with that option you would screw the other players as
well.

> Suggestions on how to deal with this? Are there some armor-ablative rules
> I'm not aware of that might help?

There are in FoF. And the forementioned (by the other Listees)
Combatpool reductions. And there are shamans and hermetics, sustained
Armor foci, Grenades, Gas, EX-EX/APDS, Hand-toHand Combat with four
friends in Comabt, floor under pressuresensitive plates is under
electricity if the Maglock the corner before was not used properly and
of course the good old cow that just materialised above the Character
and stomps him to pieces.
Hope it helped.

> Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
> http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
> Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.

--
---> Steadfast...Selfproclaimed Protector of Gerber BABY's
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Uh, 089 of 200 it states in Gerber BABY...
Message no. 22
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 22:36:17 EST
In a message dated 10/29/98 5:37:06 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
CellSales9@***.COM writes:

> This has also happened to me once. I enforce the following rule: Everytime
> a
> player is hit with 4S or more damage, his armor degrades to 1/2 of its
> rating.
> That will probably take care of your problem.
>
> Sabre
> A good plan today is better than the perfect plan tomorrow.

Umm, actually, IIRC, somewhere in FoF I think is a rule which states that
armor degrades after any hit by something which causes something more than a
Moderate wound potentially. I use it often here in the home games, and the
guys don't like it much when their armor value begins to start dropping on
them really quickly ...

-Herc (too tired to even bother looking for a FoF at this time)
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 23
From: Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:51:25 +1000
>Umm, actually, IIRC, somewhere in FoF I think is a rule which states that
>armor degrades after any hit by something which causes something more than
a
>Moderate wound potentially. I use it often here in the home games, and the
>guys don't like it much when their armor value begins to start dropping on
>them really quickly ...


Sounds about right... I remember that rule too, or one like it.

In any case, we didn't like taking moderates, and the point of armour
degradation added insult to injury.

If I have to worry about armour degrading more than once, then I'm worried
about survival, not armour degradation. :)

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology. So
there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Message no. 24
From: Justin Elliott <justin.elliott@********.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:56:20 +1300
I guess another way of handling it would be to move the group to somewhere
where the troll could not wear his armour. For example all my games are set
in the UK, where it is illegal to have heavy armour, offensive cyberware,
be an unregistered mage etc... A setting like that would go someway to
nullifying the high armour (which as some have pointed out seems to be a
big part of the problem. )

By the way when the troll got all the extra cyber etc did it increase his
size any ( I mean bulk wise... Muscle Aug, Derm plating etc all would
increase "bulk" ) because if it did it is unlikely that his made-to-fit
armour fits him any longer .... just a thought.

Justin.
Message no. 25
From: Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:21:55 -0500
On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Sean McCrohan wrote:

> How'd he get an 8
> Ballistic, anyway? Security armor? Remember that only two layers of armor
> have effect, and the lighter of those two only adds half of its rating.
> Level 3 Formfit, plus an Armored Jacket, only gives a Ballistic of 7...
> I assume the last point came either from a helmet, a shield, or cyber.

Titanium bone lacing.

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.
Message no. 26
From: Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:37:57 -0500
On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Fade wrote:

> No biggie, that's muscle augment 4 and titanium bone lacing. You can
> get that for (urm..) 155 K (but the essence'll kill you). Okay, all
> alpha, that's 310K, you can probably cram in dermal sheath lvl2 as
> well without going out of reach of a B tech priority. Using A for
> attributes, that could be 6,5,6,3,4,6 ->race 11,4,10,1,2,6 ->
> cyber 16,8,14,1,2,6. (I'd use the B for a sorcery adept and call the
> beast Balrog, your friendly neighbourhood Sons of Sauron fanatic
> sword - wielding pyromaniac, but that's me (That's what you get if
> you kill off M, Ed. ;).
>
> So, he can do it, it's legal, and layering armor rules won't hinder
> this mother.
>
Yup I agree. I'm not complaining about the legality...

> Question: What kind of solution do you want?
>
I run my games where the most usual mook you run up against is a guy with
decent firearms skill (5) and a mid-level gun (sub machinegun or assault
rifle). Obviously this will change depending on what's going on,
assaulting Aztechnology HQ for example won't draw guys this low. But
again, one of the things I've always liked about shadowrun is that a bunch
of lameos with guns could potentially drop a team of experienced
shadowrunners in the right circumstances. In the example situation, Mr.
Troll was at point blank with no cover vs guys with smartguns and assault
rifles, and they failed to take him down. My big disappointment is that
someone could get shot 10 times in such a situation and take no damage.
If a 2 year old with an assault rifle shot anyone 10 times with an assault
rifle I'd expect some reaction. Turned out that the way the mechanics
worked out in this situation it wouldn't work that way. My big question
was, was I overlooking something in the rules that wouldn't have allowed
this to happen?

> Do you want a solution on how to hurt him and only him, to exploit
> his weaknesses, so to speak?

Nope, hurting this guy in general isn't a problem. These same five guys
loaded with Assault Cannons for example would have levelled him to the
ground. But your average corps swat team doesn't have that kind of
ordinance. What I would have settled for is one light wound from all of
the deadly hits, that would have given him five boxes. I'd have been
happy with that. I'm not out to kill him outright, but it was pretty dumb
to walk around the corner right into those guys and not take cover. As it
turned out for him, it wasn't.

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.
Message no. 27
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:46:25 -0500
> *snip horror story*
>
> Now I realize it's possible to hurt someone like this in the game with
> heavier weapons, but in reality your average shmo won't be carrying around
> much more than an assault rifle imo. I've always liked the fact that in
> shadowrun no matter how tough you are a pack of guys can kill you, but
> suddenly I'm faced with an example where this is no longer the case. A
> pack of guys with guns didn't even scratch this guy.

That's why I love magic. Manabolts, manabolts, and more manabolts! Anything that
targets the bugger's willpower rather than any physical stat should take him
down neatly. :)


--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm
Message no. 28
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:52:48 -0800
> Nope, hurting this guy in general isn't a problem. These same five guys
> loaded with Assault Cannons for example would have levelled him to the
> ground. But your average corps swat team doesn't have that kind of
> ordinance. What I would have settled for is one light wound from all of
> the deadly hits, that would have given him five boxes. I'd have been
> happy with that. I'm not out to kill him outright, but it was pretty
dumb
> to walk around the corner right into those guys and not take cover. As
it
> turned out for him, it wasn't.
>
> Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
> http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
> Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points
between.

Well, a standard corp assault team (should) have for an 8 man team, 5
assault rifles, 2 shotguns and a LMG. All should also have a heavy sidearm
or SMG too.
Also, PCs have combat pools. Your NPC's don't, but that shouldn't stop you
from giving them rerolls on failures.
Anyone who walks knowingly into the face of 5 assault rifles deserves to
take at _least_ a serious wound just for being dumb.
Message no. 29
From: Rick J Federle <griffinhq@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:59:08 -0500
Actually, this senario isn't that unfeasable. I actually know people
(yes, real people) who have done this sort of thing (and lived to tell
about it). Granted, they were special forces and at their peak condition
(and they had sense enough to get to cover eventually), but it IS
possible.
My point here is that it all depends on the character. I am currently
using a similar character in an IRL game who is former Special Forces and
knows (and should know) how to deal with this situation.
As a GM (and a person), I'd deal with someone who stepped out into the
middle of a clearing and opened up by burning the entire clip into him.

Two suggestions:
1) Squirts. Chemicals (espically non lethal) are a good solution to the
problem because armor usually doesn't affect it unless it's chemsealed.
2) Sniper. (Need I say more?)
___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 30
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 21:15:33 -0800
Nobody can withstand a 3 round burst of 5.56mm. 5.56 will penetrate over 70
layers of kevlar, more than 7.62 does. Heaviest personal armor is IIIa. 50
layers. You get hit in the chest with that, you go down. Period. You
_might_ get up again, but you're going to be hurting, badly. Spec forces
will get up, and they'll be hurting to, but they're trained to not feel the
pain. Runners aren't. SMG's are different though, IIIa armor will stop it
pretty much cold, but it's still going to hurt. Blunt force trauma. Of
course, shock is an issue. If you're pumped enough, you may not even
register the hits.
I agree with you on the clip-clearing burst though. Neat effects too. Start
with the muzzle low, use the recoil to walk it up the target, it takes
practice to get it right but the practice is fun.

----------
> From: Rick J Federle <griffinhq@****.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
> Date: Thursday, October 29, 1998 8:59 PM
>
> Actually, this senario isn't that unfeasable. I actually know
people
> (yes, real people) who have done this sort of thing (and lived to tell
> about it). Granted, they were special forces and at their peak condition
> (and they had sense enough to get to cover eventually), but it IS
> possible.
> My point here is that it all depends on the character. I am
currently
> using a similar character in an IRL game who is former Special Forces and
> knows (and should know) how to deal with this situation.
> As a GM (and a person), I'd deal with someone who stepped out
into the
> middle of a clearing and opened up by burning the entire clip into him.
>
> Two suggestions:
> 1) Squirts. Chemicals (espically non lethal) are a good solution
to the
> problem because armor usually doesn't affect it unless it's chemsealed.
> 2) Sniper. (Need I say more?)
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 31
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:17:23 -0600
On Thu, 29 Oct 1998 14:46:52 -0500 Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.NET> writes:
>A player in my weekly group recently rebuilt a mid-level troll sam with
>about 2mil in cash. Through bioware and cyberware he was able to crank
>his bod up to 14 and str up to 14.
<SNIP>
>Now I realize it's possible to hurt someone like this in the game with
>heavier weapons, but in reality your average shmo won't be carrying
around
>much more than an assault rifle imo. I've always liked the fact that in
>shadowrun no matter how tough you are a pack of guys can kill you, but
>suddenly I'm faced with an example where this is no longer the case. A
>pack of guys with guns didn't even scratch this guy.
>
>Suggestions on how to deal with this? Are there some armor-ablative
rules
>I'm not aware of that might help?

Okay, I know most of what I'm gonna say has been said but I hope I'll add
something to this :)

-The armor-ablative rules are on page 75 of FoF
-Use shock weapons. They are effective against 1/2 impact armor, can
stun the troll and have the possibility of screwing up his cyber.
-Use drugs (on the troll ;P). If he doesn't dodge, it ignores armor.
-Use Flechette ammo with called shots to unarmored areas like the head.
-APDS will help ALOT against his armor.
-Use Burstfire -SHOTGUNS- ... that's a base damge code of 13D.
-Use vehicle weapons.
-A Panther Assault Cannon never hurt anybody you didn't want it to ...
-Are his boots armored? Use ankle-level monowire (10S).
-If any of that armor rating is from Dikote, have it flake off after half
a dozen heavy gunfights (see the Shadowtalk on page 91 of Shadowtech for
more info on this :).
-Make sure you check if for biosystem overstress if appropriate (See page
7 of Shadowtech)
-Don't use average guys against Supertroll. Use Cyberzombies and
Awakened nasties (A Juggernaught wouldn't be overkill, would it? ... Nah.
:). Also, use foes with sniper rifles (14S is a pain in the ass... 14D
[Barret model 121] is a hole in the ass... ;).
-Hit him in his weakpoints ... Toss magic at him. Anything that is
resisted by Intelligence or Willpower. Use Transform (Grimmoire) to turn
him into a w**dch*ck ... Toss a Illusion of something (that he wants to
touch ... Money, target of extradition run, Miss Troll USA) over exposed
heavy-duty power lines ... that's got to be like 20+ Deadly shock damage
(shock weapon rules are on page 124 of SR3 and 103 of SR2).
-He may soak the damage for a called shot of Gel rounds to the crotch but
its just a mean thing to do :)
-Have the guards pack EX Explosive ammo.
-Have a guard use a LMG on full-auto (He will NOT soak that ... hell, he
probably won't _survive_ that ...)
-Catch him with his pants down... literally. Send him women (assuming he
likes women :) out to kill him. (If he searches them, have them have
cyberarm guns instead.)
-Run him over with trucks.
-Kamikaze drones are also great.
-Dig pits for him to fall into; the deeper, the better. (Then drop a
grenade down there <VEG>.)
-Rooms with Gas are always fun ... Or better yet, use an airtight room
and suck the air out ... If you want to get messy, superpressurize the
room he's in and then blow a hole in it. (Troll go -BOOM-!) You'd have
to get rules for it from someone here.
-Get him addicted to something.
-Shoot him up with Hyper, THEN shoot at him with nasty stuff. (The Hyper
will increase the damage taken. See page 98 of Shadowtech.)
-Make sure the guards have Smartlink II's. That'll make sure they have
more successes.
-Use several (out of sight) mages to make the guards invisble.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 32
From: Rick J Federle <griffinhq@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 00:59:02 -0500
But then again, they never got hit either.
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Message no. 33
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:01:41 -0700
> From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.bc.ca>

<snip>

> Ballistic 8?!? What's he wearing for armor?

Most common combo that i've seen is Rating 3 Bod armor and a sec. jacket.
Dikote the both of them and voila 8/5 I believe it is. Thankfully under
SR3 the penalties would get rather nasty for this sort of thing.


Caric


BTW your reply to: field is overriding the list H-Man.
Message no. 34
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:04:49 -0700
> From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.bc.ca>

> > Couple of questions. Are you playing SR3 rules? If so then what is
the
> > troll's quickness? Ballistic armor of eight on a low quickness troll
is
> going
> > to fuck with him in many ways. Also switch from doing two bursts to
one
> full
> > auto shot of about six rounds. The damage would jump up to 14D which
> raises
> > his target number to six to resist which makes a big difference in my
> > experience. There are always different types of ammo to throw in there
> as
> > well. Throw in the EX-explo and troll boy is now resisting 5 attacks
at
> 16D
> > base. Even with the 8 ballistic armor that's pretty beefy.
> >
> > Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

> That's something I missed. Definitely use FullAuto. Get the most recoil
> compensation you can, shock pads, gyros, the works. Plus the Fields of
Fire
> strength rules. One of the other players in my group can fire 8 rounds
from
> his M22a2 before he feels recoil. And if you're really stumped after all
> this, use some _really_ nasty rounds, APDS-EX. Half ballistic, +2 power.
> Even a light pistol can take down most people, but in case of Troll, use
> shotgun.
> And bring in some guy with an ancient .30-06. BIG holes.

Well I was, purhaps incorrectly, assuming that the sec goons were able to
compensate for the two bursts that they were firing, so my example was
based on a 6 round full auto barrage, but more is always nice too. :)

Caric
Message no. 35
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:11:49 -0700
> From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>

> >Check out what his quickness is, look at that 8
> >points of ballistic and how he gets it, and then look at the armor rules
in
> >the gear section.
>
> Note that this rule only applies to armor being worn. Armor rating from
> cyber does not suffer from this penalty (at least that's how I would rule
> it). 8 points of ballistic is possible with a secure jacket, orthoskin,
> titanium bone lacing, and a cybertorso with 5 points of soft armor.

That's how we've always played it as well. I was just assuming that it was
worn armor. Wouldn't the above combination give you an armor rating of
12/11?

;)

Caric
Message no. 36
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:58:11 -0600
On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 01:23:36 +0000 Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO> writes:
>Drew Curtis wrote:

>> A player in my weekly group recently rebuilt a mid-level troll sam
with
>> about 2mil in cash. Through bioware and cyberware he was able to
crank
>> his bod up to 14 and str up to 14.

>No biggie, that's muscle augment 4 and titanium bone lacing. You can
>get that for (urm..) 155 K (but the essence'll kill you). Okay, all
>alpha, that's 310K, you can probably cram in dermal sheath lvl2 as
>well without going out of reach of a B tech priority.
<SNIP>

Actually, I'm guessing Drew Curtis's char is using Titanium bonelacing,
Orthoskin, and then two pieces of armor layered (Most likely a Lined Coat
and an Armored Vest with Plates.). Here's something I forgot to mention:
Check how the char's armor is oriented ... A lined coat or armored
jacket is probably worn open so if he's got no armor clothing guarding
his stomach, pull a called shot to his gut (using Smart link II and
spending one simple action to aim first, the net target number mod is
-1.). That will bypass all his armor except his orthoskin. If not, his
groin is probably unarmored (hell, it might be -completely-
unarmored...). If he is wearing a codpiece, the head is the least
armored target... For really evil damage, have a sniper (with appropriate
skill rating 6) with Smartlink 2 and vision mag3 (cyber) spend 3 rounds
aiming and shoot, called shot to the head. His (sniper) base target
number will be 4 (Range always reduce to short range.) plus 2 for called
shot (normally +4 but smartlink level two halves this.), -2 for
smartlink, -3 for aimed shot. That's a target number of 1 before vision
and other modifiers If the target has natural thermographic vision and
cyber lowlight, the worst case scenario, is +4 vision mods (from thermal
smoke) but usually it'll be 0 to +2. If you can catch the troll while
his stationary (perhaps while waiting for "the signal"?), that's an
additional -1. If trolly is running, that's +2 to the target number.

So in the worst case, you're looking at a target number of 7. In most
cases, you're looking at a target number of 2 or maybe 3. So how many
dice to chuck in? Well, 6 for the skill, then give the sniper enhanced
articulation and a reflex recorder for 2 more dice and then give him a
customized weapon for 1 more die. That's 9 dice plus probably 6 from
Combat Pool. If you want to get evil, you can make the sniper a Physical
Adept with Improved Ability Firearms. Assuming the cyber is beta and the
bioware is cultured (Reflex recorders are neural so they are cultured
automaticly), that's 1 point of magic loss, leaving room for 5 dice of
improved ability in SR2 and 6 dice in SR3 (spend some of the remaining
points on Thermo and/or low-light vision and flare comp.). That's a
total of 20 dice in SR2 and 21 dice in SR3. SCARY! :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 37
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:24:03 -0700
> From: Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>

> >Umm, actually, IIRC, somewhere in FoF I think is a rule which states
that
> >armor degrades after any hit by something which causes something more
than
> a
> >Moderate wound potentially. I use it often here in the home games, and
the
> >guys don't like it much when their armor value begins to start dropping
on
> >them really quickly ...
>
>
> Sounds about right... I remember that rule too, or one like it.
>
> In any case, we didn't like taking moderates, and the point of armour
> degradation added insult to injury.
>
> If I have to worry about armour degrading more than once, then I'm
worried
> about survival, not armour degradation. :)

If the rule that we use is the one from FoF ( and I believe that it is) it
is a moderate wound or above, but the appropriate rating drops by a number
of points equal to the power of the attack divided by the rating of the
armor. Gets really nasty really fast when the heavy lead starts flying.

Caric
Message no. 38
From: Cernunnos Morrigu <cmorrigu@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:56:31 -0500
On 10/29/98, at 11:37 PM, Drew Curtis wrote:

>Nope, hurting this guy in general isn't a problem. These same five guys
>loaded with Assault Cannons for example would have levelled him to the
>ground. But your average corps swat team doesn't have that kind of
>ordinance. What I would have settled for is one light wound from all of
>the deadly hits, that would have given him five boxes. I'd have been
>happy with that. I'm not out to kill him outright, but it was pretty dumb
>to walk around the corner right into those guys and not take cover. As it
>turned out for him, it wasn't.

Umm.. That's a situation I use GM power in and say "Look, that was
stupid,
you took damage - I don't care WHAT the dice say. This is common sense
and I'm not going to roll it, take damage." A player should know better
than
to do that.

Back to biz,
-CM
---
Cernunnos Morrigu | "Summer, check that door!"
cmorrigu@********.net | **BOOM**
http://members.xoom.com/cmorrigu/sr/ | "Ok, check the next one, too."
Message no. 39
From: Jester <jester@**********.NL>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:43:00 +0100
At 14:46, 29 Oct 98, Jester was told by Drew Curtis:

> A player in my weekly group recently rebuilt a mid-level troll sam with
> about 2mil in cash. Through bioware and cyberware he was able to crank
> his bod up to 14 and str up to 14.
>
> Suggestions on how to deal with this? Are there some armor-ablative rules
> I'm not aware of that might help?


Just to add my 2 cent's. _Don't_ kill him. If you do, he'll get the
chance to build another munchkin. Instead, use some of the provided
examples of this thread to capture him alive by, let's say, LS and
strip him of his illegal cyberware and combat armor and let him play
further.

This way, he has to think (and roleplay) to survive, instead of being
able to shoot his way through trouble...

Note to Gurth: Maybe this is also a solution to M's munchkin char's?
:)

--
I think I'm supposed to do something here, but alas, I think I forgot...

Jester
<jester@**********.nl>

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GS d s: a22? c- U? P? L? E? W N- o? K- w+ O--- M? V? PS PE-
Y PGP- t+ 5+++ X+ R+>++ tv++ b+++ DI? D- G e>+ h! r++ y+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 40
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:13:03 +0100
According to Drew Curtis, at 14:46 on 29 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> Now I realize it's possible to hurt someone like this in the game with
> heavier weapons, but in reality your average shmo won't be carrying around
> much more than an assault rifle imo. I've always liked the fact that in
> shadowrun no matter how tough you are a pack of guys can kill you, but
> suddenly I'm faced with an example where this is no longer the case. A
> pack of guys with guns didn't even scratch this guy.

Part of the trouble is that the SR system works well enough as long as you
have uncybered humans (or elves) running around. As soon as you add in the
metahumans that get plusses on their Body ratings, and/or cyberware or
magic that enhances Body, things start to break down a bit.

> Suggestions on how to deal with this? Are there some armor-ablative rules
> I'm not aware of that might help?

One way to fix this is to fire six-round FA bursts rather than two, three-
round ones. You'll be rolling against the same TN as for the second three-
round burst, but your NPCs will likely have more Combat Pool left for the
single, long burst and the PC faces a higher damage (14D instead of 11S
twice).

Another way I can think of would be to use some or another rule for armor
reduction, which should be based on the base damage of the weapon and NOT
on the damage actually taken by the character, so that after a few bursts
the troll will have a lot less armor to protect him.

Still another way is to re-introduce the SR1 staging rules (see my article
in TSS #8) and have the troll eat some 11S5 explosive bursts -- see if he
can stage down if he needs five successes per level...

One small problem is still that all these are house rule fixes; BTB it is
very difficult to hurt characters with lots of armor and a high Body
attribute, not to mention if you use these rules when the other PCs in the
group are not of the same power level as this troll, then they will suffer
much more severely.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 41
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:13:03 +0100
According to Paul Meyer, at 13:11 on 29 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> Answer #2: Bullets don't kill people, people kill people

That reminds me of a conversation in an episode of Sledge Hammer I was
watching a few weeks ago:

Sledge: "Guns don't kill people."
Doctor: "So I've heard. People kill people, right?"
Sledge: "No, _bullets_ kill people."

> Impact-armor weapons. Tasers. Gas. Narcoject.

Narcoject is a very poor choice against a character with high armor, as
you need to roll more successes than the Impact armor rating to get
through it. A taser is also somewhat questionably, seeing that this
character had no trouble with 11S bursts, and tasers do 10S (resisted with
half Impact, okay, which can make it slightly more effective).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 42
From: Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 07:22:51 -0500
On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Hatchetman wrote:

> Anyone who walks knowingly into the face of 5 assault rifles deserves to
> take at _least_ a serious wound just for being dumb.
>
My feelings exactly

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.
Message no. 43
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 06:51:23 -0600
On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:13:03 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
<SNIP>
>> Impact-armor weapons. Tasers. Gas. Narcoject.

>Narcoject is a very poor choice against a character with high armor, as
>you need to roll more successes than the Impact armor rating to get
>through it.
<SNIP>

Uhm, Gurth ... Where are you getting this from? It's NOT in SSC. In
fact I don't recall reading this anywhere ... Are you sure you're not
quoting a houserule?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 44
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:49:58 -0500
On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Gurth wrote:

->According to Paul Meyer, at 13:11 on 29 Oct 98, the word on the street was...
->
->> Answer #2: Bullets don't kill people, people kill people
->
->That reminds me of a conversation in an episode of Sledge Hammer I was
->watching a few weeks ago:
->
->Sledge: "Guns don't kill people."
->Doctor: "So I've heard. People kill people, right?"
->Sledge: "No, _bullets_ kill people."
->
->> Impact-armor weapons. Tasers. Gas. Narcoject.
->
->Narcoject is a very poor choice against a character with high armor, as
->you need to roll more successes than the Impact armor rating to get
->through it. A taser is also somewhat questionably, seeing that this
->character had no trouble with 11S bursts, and tasers do 10S (resisted with
->half Impact, okay, which can make it slightly more effective).

One way I generally handle ultra-combat heavy PCs is to put them
into situations where, if they start fighting, they've failed in their
mission and won't get paid. Most of my PCs now have more broad skills.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 45
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:41:07 EST
In a message dated 10/30/1998 7:58:29 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.COM writes:

>
> >Narcoject is a very poor choice against a character with high armor, as
> >you need to roll more successes than the Impact armor rating to get
> >through it.
> <SNIP>
>
> Uhm, Gurth ... Where are you getting this from? It's NOT in SSC. In
> fact I don't recall reading this anywhere ... Are you sure you're not
> quoting a houserule?
>
After reading and rereading this twice, I think I have to agree with D. Ghost
here Gurth. What you were saying about the number of successes being needed
to reduce the impact armor I can't find either. I know that narcojet stuff
and high armor ratings are NOT good combinations, as the needle has to
actually impact AND penetrate the skin beneath the armor (aka, penetration
qualities which are handled as a damage resistance test).

-K
Message no. 46
From: Brian and Shannon <bcsnskm@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 14:13:27 -0000
I have an idea...
Two Gangers...
A Bucket of Kerosene...
A couple of road flares...
A rooftop above where the troll is walking...
Troll is carrying a lot of ammo right?
Burn Baby, Burn
--
Brian Seagroves
Message no. 47
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 19:51:25 +0100
According to Jester, at 10:43 on 30 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> Just to add my 2 cent's. _Don't_ kill him. If you do, he'll get the
> chance to build another munchkin.

Especially if you let him think the reason he was killed was because his
character wasn't powerful enough.

> This way, he has to think (and roleplay) to survive, instead of being
> able to shoot his way through trouble...

I don't think this is really the problem; it appears to me that the
problem in this case is that in a firefight, this troll doesn't take any
damage. For all we know the player is a very good roleplayer who just
chose to roleplay a big tough troll.

> Note to Gurth: Maybe this is also a solution to M's munchkin char's?
> :)

The one he's playing ATM doesn't have too many problems, except maybe for
having too much stuff once again. But hey, we have a precedent of burning
and exploding apartments, so one more wouldn't hurt... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 48
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 19:51:25 +0100
According to K in the Shadows, at 12:41 on 30 Oct 98, the word on the
street was...

> > Uhm, Gurth ... Where are you getting this from? It's NOT in SSC. In
> > fact I don't recall reading this anywhere ... Are you sure you're not
> > quoting a houserule?
> >
> After reading and rereading this twice, I think I have to agree with D. Ghost
> here Gurth. What you were saying about the number of successes being needed
> to reduce the impact armor I can't find either.

I was not talking about Narcoject weapons _reducing_ the Impact armor
rating, but rather about how many successes you need to even affect
someone when you shoot them with a Narcoject weapon.

And to answer D. Ghost, I got this from my first edition Street Samurai
Catalog, page 62: "To penetrate a target's armor, firer must achieve more
successes than the target's Impact Armor value. Target may use Dodge Pool
successes to increase his armor value by 1 per success." AFAIK, the only
change made to this in the second edition of the SSC (which I don't own)
was to replace the word "Dodge" by the word "Combat."

Therefore, if you have a character wearing, say, a security armor plus
helmet (Impact 6), you need to have at least 7 successes on your test to
fire the weapon. This makes it a poor choice of weapon against an armored
target, IMO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 49
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:25:25 -0600
:A player in my weekly group recently rebuilt a mid-level troll sam with
:about 2mil in cash. Through bioware and cyberware he was able to crank
:his bod up to 14 and str up to 14.

That's not to suprising- in fact, its not to hard for a troll with
good starting cyber and some karma to reach that level. Surgery costs
after character creation could make such modifications hard, but 2 million
is a LOT of money; that's the area that needs balance. A character who's
earned 2 million and sundry karma should be getting the hard jobs, going
against opposition that had mages and APDS, etc.

:In our last run, he came around the corner and there were six guys with
:assault rifles. He killed one on his action, and the other five openned
:up with two bursts each, hitting him all 10 times (trying to punish him
:for being silly enough to take 5 guys with no cover and make this a
:learning experience).
:
:He took 5 11D bursts and 5 11S bursts. He had 8 points of balistic,
:dropping the target number to 3.

Sounds like the guys were not terrifically skilled. Barring other
equipment (including FA capable assult rifles), thier best option would
have been called shots, and or aimed shots.

:He took no damage.

Well, if his armor can stop one rifle round, it can proably stop 30.
The silly thing is somebody with better (but not hardened) armor and a
body of 6 would have been dead- armor in SR only does its job if the
character (like yours) has a good body.
You need skilled opponents, with better ammo or different (chemical,
electircal, melee, or magic) attacks.

Is it so bad that he took no damage? Few people complain that an
intiatiated mage with shielding is impossible to kill with any normal
magic. After blowing 2 million, Its the troll samurias JOB to be
impossible to kill with any normal gun. By taking on a squad of 5 guys
with assult rifles, he was doing the same job as the mage tying up a nasty
magical threat.


:Suggestions on how to deal with this? Are there some armor-ablative
rules
:I'm not aware of that might help?


There are such rules in Fields of Fire, but the armor take no damage
unless the character takes a moderate wound. Then you divide the attack
power by armor rating and take that off the armors value. Therefore,
taking a moderate wound from a heavy pistol ruins armored clothing's
protection completely. I don't think they are very good rules.

Mongoose
Message no. 50
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 14:47:57 -0600
On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 19:51:25 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>> > Uhm, Gurth ... Where are you getting this from? It's NOT in SSC.
In
>> > fact I don't recall reading this anywhere ... Are you sure you're
not
>> > quoting a houserule?
>> >
<SNIP>
>And to answer D. Ghost, I got this from my first edition Street Samurai
>Catalog, page 62: "To penetrate a target's armor, firer must achieve
more
>successes than the target's Impact Armor value. Target may use Dodge
Pool
>successes to increase his armor value by 1 per success." AFAIK, the only
>change made to this in the second edition of the SSC (which I don't own)
>was to replace the word "Dodge" by the word "Combat."
>
>Therefore, if you have a character wearing, say, a security armor plus
>helmet (Impact 6), you need to have at least 7 successes on your test to
>fire the weapon. This makes it a poor choice of weapon against an
armored
>target, IMO.

This is NOT in SSC 2nd Edition :(

Here's what it Says:

**Delivers one dose of the Narcojet toxin (Shadowrun rules, page 147).
Resolve using standard Ranged Combat procedure; however, roll only Combat
Pool dice against the target number (reduced by Impact Armor). If the
target does not generate more net successes, make a Body Test against the
toxin to reduce its effect, but Armor and Combat Pool do not apply.

As I interpret this, Attacker's Successes and Defender's Successes are
only important to determine a clean miss or not. they do not stage up or
down the damage. If the dart hits, Body dice resist the full effect.
Obviously, this is different from what you related. :/

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 51
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:21:40 -0600
:>He took 5 11D bursts and 5 11S bursts. He had 8 points of balistic,
:>dropping the target number to 3.
:
:The problem is not so much his high stats, but his high armor value.
Rolling
:eight fives (say) with 15 dice is significantly more difficult than
rolling
:eight threes. The answer, therefore is to attack in ways that circumvent
:armor.


Actually, I'd say that its the combo you need; all the armor in the
world, plus a body of 1, is not gonna help. I know my character got
notocably tougher whan I raised his body to 8, just becasue he rarely took
"incidental" damage.

:For these kinds of guys: mana combat spells. Avoids armor, with added
bonus
:of attacking Willpower, not Body. Spirit powers are also wicked on
walking
:tanks, because the usually involve resisted success tests with _Essence_,
:which means the tank is usually wicked hosed.
:
:Wordman


I don't know of any power that is resisted by essence in SR2 or 3.
Unless, of course, your sicking them with "essence drain"- that will drop
a samurai pretty fast. Doesn't make the mages happy either.
As for the Mana spells; If theres a mage in this party, he should
protect the troll, who seems to be doing a bang-up job of handling mundane
threats.

Mongoose
Message no. 52
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 17:20:49 -0600
: Umm.. That's a situation I use GM power in and say "Look, that was
:stupid,
:you took damage - I don't care WHAT the dice say. This is common sense
:and I'm not going to roll it, take damage." A player should know better
:than
:to do that.


If the rules seem to indicate to the player that an action will have a
certain outcome, then acting on those expectations is NOT against common
sense. In this case, the guy got shot at ten time and was unhurt, by the
stock
rules; I think it was reasonable for him to assume he was safe, and saying
he acted stupidly and should be hurt goes against "common sense". It also
is patently "unfair", in my opinion- why should the rules change in just
that situation?
Now, if the character had previously seen, even in one instance, a
bullet get past that much amour to hurt somebody (unless you are saying
these are the first 30 bullets to ever hit anybody in that game), he'd
have some basis on which to make assumptions of "common sense".
It's also "common sense" that stray bullets hit folks in the head and
spine, through dumb luck, but it doesn't happen in most SR games, and most
players would not expect it to happen.


A lot of people responding to this thread seem to think the player did
something awfully wrong and should be punished; in fact, as far as I can
tell, the GM gave his character 2 million worth of gear and no indication
that it would NOT make him nearly bullet-proof.
I personally don't even think that the character is awfully over-
powered; he's not hard to take down other ways, as folks have gleefully
and graphically pointed out. He's a skilled and well equipped specialist
in physical confrontation, and should be as useful in that situation as a
powerful initiated mage would be in a magical confrontation. In general,
he'll be limited in effectiveness in any situation where A) he can't bring
gear B) physical combat is not needed C) humongous trolls can't easily
fit. Most Shadowrun characters have similar limitations.
Its amazing to me how many people point out that "any character can be
dangerous", but many also seem to think there is something "bad" about
having a big physically dangerous character.

Mongoose
Message no. 53
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:24:11 -0600
:> Note that this rule only applies to armor being worn. Armor rating from
:> cyber does not suffer from this penalty (at least that's how I would
rule
:> it). 8 points of ballistic is possible with a secure jacket, orthoskin,
:> titanium bone lacing, and a cybertorso with 5 points of soft armor.
:
:That's how we've always played it as well. I was just assuming that it
was
:worn armor. Wouldn't the above combination give you an armor rating of
:12/11?


No; because SR doesn't use hit locations, cyber"limb" armor in 5
locations (both arms, both legs, torso front, torso back, head) is added
up and divided by 5. I hope MaM has something better.

Mongoose
Message no. 54
From: Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:42:08 -0500
>On 10/29/98, at 11:37 PM, Drew Curtis wrote:
>
>>Nope, hurting this guy in general isn't a problem. These same five guys
>>loaded with Assault Cannons for example would have levelled him to the
>>ground. But your average corps swat team doesn't have that kind of
>>ordinance. What I would have settled for is one light wound from all of
>>the deadly hits, that would have given him five boxes. I'd have been
>>happy with that. I'm not out to kill him outright, but it was pretty dumb
>>to walk around the corner right into those guys and not take cover. As it
>>turned out for him, it wasn't.
>
> Umm.. That's a situation I use GM power in and say "Look, that was
>stupid,
>you took damage - I don't care WHAT the dice say. This is common sense
>and I'm not going to roll it, take damage." A player should know better
>than
>to do that.
>

A better way to handle it would be to change the last two guards on the
fly, make them better skilled and have better equipment than the first
three thereby giving them more successes, or if you are in the habit of
hiding your dice this is even easier, just lie about how many successes
the guy got. Figure 8 successes to stage deadly down to nothing and he
has 14 dice so give the guy 7 successes which guarantees a light wound
and probably means at least a moderate. This way you ensure damage while
not seeming to just decide by GM fiat that he gets hurt which is likely
to upset the player.

Steve
Message no. 55
From: Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 19:00:06 -0500
>On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Gurth wrote:
>
>->According to Paul Meyer, at 13:11 on 29 Oct 98, the word on the street
>was...
>->
>->> Answer #2: Bullets don't kill people, people kill people
>->
>->That reminds me of a conversation in an episode of Sledge Hammer I was
>->watching a few weeks ago:
>->
>->Sledge: "Guns don't kill people."
>->Doctor: "So I've heard. People kill people, right?"
>->Sledge: "No, _bullets_ kill people."
>->
>->> Impact-armor weapons. Tasers. Gas. Narcoject.
>->
>->Narcoject is a very poor choice against a character with high armor, as
>->you need to roll more successes than the Impact armor rating to get
>->through it. A taser is also somewhat questionably, seeing that this
>->character had no trouble with 11S bursts, and tasers do 10S (resisted with
>->half Impact, okay, which can make it slightly more effective).
>
> One way I generally handle ultra-combat heavy PCs is to put them
>into situations where, if they start fighting, they've failed in their
>mission and won't get paid. Most of my PCs now have more broad skills.
>

Or you can give them the Kobyashi Maru test from the Star Trek Universe.
It would go something like this.
Turn 1, 1 guard comes around the corner and opens fire his Heavy Pistol.
Turn 2, 2 more guards come around the corner and open up with their SMG's.
Turn 3, 3 more guards come around the corner and open up with Assault
Rifles.
Turn 4, 4 more guards come around the corner and open up with LMG's.
Turn 5, 5 more guards come arouns the corner and open up with their Ares
MP lasers.
Turn 6, 6 rigger controlled drones enter the fray and open up with HMG's
Turn 7, 7 Elementals/Spirits show up.
Turn 8, the hell with it if he's stupid enough to still be there and
lucky enough to be alive have a Dragon show up.

You can of course modify this how ever you like. Also as a suggestion
that no one has mentioned 1 guard with an MP laser and a few successes
will still kill this guy. The laser is resisted by Impact armor not
Ballistic and it's halved. so even if the troll had 8 impact (unlikely
but possible) he'll be resisting an 11M which if he's lucky he will get 2
successes against and there are no recoil penalties so the Sec guard is
likely to have at least 2 more successes.
Message no. 56
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 20:42:57 -0600
On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 19:08:09 -0500 Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
writes:
>}}snip Gurths SSC 1st ed stuff{{
>
>>This is NOT in SSC 2nd Edition :(
>>
>>Here's what it Says:
>>
>>**Delivers one dose of the Narcojet toxin (Shadowrun rules, page 147).
>>Resolve using standard Ranged Combat procedure; however, roll only
Combat
>>Pool dice against the target number (reduced by Impact Armor). If the

>Important point here what target number? It never says anywhere. Usually
>it would be the power of the weapon but none is ever listed for the
>Narcojet only a strength for the toxin. I usually gave it a power of 6
as
>all of the other light pistols but this is never stated anywhere.

I ussually use a T# of 6 because of the power of the toxin... I know that
doesn't make sense but it was the best I thought up. :)

>Of
>course in 3rd edition it could be handled by a simple dodge test except
>this would assume that every needle that hit the target penetrated the
>armor enough to inject the toxin and I'm not sure if I'm comfortable
with
>this as it would let you take down big paranormals with lots of armor
>real easy this way.
<SNIP>

What about just saying Narcojet won't pierce any type of Hardened armor.
That should take care of most of your problems with it without reducing
the effectiveness versus chars.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 57
From: Rick J Federle <griffinhq@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:31:10 -0500
Don't use a narcojet, use a squirt. Armor doesn't matter with a squirt.
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Message no. 58
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 06:37:58 +0000
> > One way I generally handle ultra-combat heavy PCs is to put them
> >into situations where, if they start fighting, they've failed in their
> >mission and won't get paid. Most of my PCs now have more broad skills.
> >

*SNIP Kobayashi Maru*
*snicker*

Old memories...

Anyway, since we seem to be on the subject of killing our old pal the
BFT.. (I guess it's not the original intent of the question, but what
the hell)

Let's try to do it with the cheapest, most commonly available
weapons. APDS has an availability of 14, so no go. In most campaigns
it should, at worst, crop up once or never at all. Ditto with the MP
laser, assault cannons etc. And not assume super gunmen either. Max
skill 6, no pool, with laser sight or smart goggles, basic book gear.
Max availability 8. (Starting character stuff, in other words.).
And, say, credit limit of 3000 nuyen.

Can we do it, people?

Sure we can. I'll start with a few goodies. Grenades in enclosed (or
not so enclosed) space is the obvious el cheapo method, hardly worth
mentioning.

AK97, bipod, gv-3, shock pads, EX ammo? (2600 + ammo).
With 5 pt RC that's a 6 round FA burst at TN 4. 16 D is no joke.
Add tracer ammo for TN 2 and 5 successes (But 14D.).

Too heavy?

The good ol' enfield, regular ammo, regular everything, w. shock
pads and GV-3. (Hey, can it take gas venting?) 11D is a bit low
against that monster, but ok. The attacker aims and shoot one
burst, rolls against TN 2 at short range, so he should get 5
successes. To stage away our friendly troll needs an average of 13
successes. With a TN of 3 Trollo will roll 9-10 successes on
average, or a moderate wound. (And no damage if he was smart enough
to take cover.).

Here's a good one.
His twin brother. With a Big, Bad, Halberd. (Pole arm). Okay, not
twin brother, just a schmuck with max troll strength (10) and 6 in
pole arms. Assuming impact is ballistic - 2, which is the norm,
that's resisting 13-6=7S + successes. And with 2 extra reach he rolls
against TN 2, which means 5 successes. Oops, new damage system, that
means he resists against 8D, no successes to counter. Still severe on
average. (His Real Twin would have 14 str, remember, not 10, so he'd
have to resist 12D, which is virtually impossible.)

Other takers?

Regards,
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 59
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 02:15:31 -0800
> > That's something I missed. Definitely use FullAuto. Get the most recoil
> > compensation you can, shock pads, gyros, the works. Plus the Fields of
> Fire
> > strength rules. One of the other players in my group can fire 8 rounds
> from
> > his M22a2 before he feels recoil. And if you're really stumped after
all
> > this, use some _really_ nasty rounds, APDS-EX. Half ballistic, +2
power.
> > Even a light pistol can take down most people, but in case of Troll,
use
> > shotgun.
> > And bring in some guy with an ancient .30-06. BIG holes.
>
> Well I was, purhaps incorrectly, assuming that the sec goons were able to
> compensate for the two bursts that they were firing, so my example was
> based on a 6 round full auto barrage, but more is always nice too. :)
>
> Caric

More is better in full auto. My group has higher RoF rules, so automatics
can effectively clear a clip. (we use real RoFs, or close to it.) And we
bastardize "cover-fire" rules when we want to sweep an area, we
"cover" the
two or three spaces around where the target is standing, the roll for
number of rounds that hit and, say 9 rounds hit, we'd stage it as a 9 round
burst. It also creates a lot of strays.
Message no. 60
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 02:20:39 -0800
> >Nope, hurting this guy in general isn't a problem. These same five guys
> >loaded with Assault Cannons for example would have levelled him to the
> >ground. But your average corps swat team doesn't have that kind of
> >ordinance. What I would have settled for is one light wound from all of
> >the deadly hits, that would have given him five boxes. I'd have been
> >happy with that. I'm not out to kill him outright, but it was pretty
dumb
> >to walk around the corner right into those guys and not take cover. As
it
> >turned out for him, it wasn't.
>
> Umm.. That's a situation I use GM power in and say "Look, that was
> stupid,
> you took damage - I don't care WHAT the dice say. This is common sense
> and I'm not going to roll it, take damage." A player should know better
> than
> to do that.
>
> Back to biz,
> -CM

Yeah, my AD&D DM is like that. If one of us pulls off something _really_
boneheaded, but we roll a natural 20 and dodge it, even though it'd be
physically impossible, the DM just says, you took XX damage from whatever.
Power of being the GM, you don't have to listen to the dice.
Message no. 61
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 02:27:10 -0800
> I have an idea...
> Two Gangers...
> A Bucket of Kerosene...
> A couple of road flares...
> A rooftop above where the troll is walking...
> Troll is carrying a lot of ammo right?
> Burn Baby, Burn
> --
> Brian Seagroves

That reminds me of a movie. (all my favorite unexpected actions come from
those) Broken Arrow. 2 Gallons of gas, road flares and duct tape. Or, if
you wanna get really extreme, a half full 5 gallon can of racing fuel.
Message no. 62
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 02:39:53 -0800
> A lot of people responding to this thread seem to think the player
did
> something awfully wrong and should be punished; in fact, as far as I can
> tell, the GM gave his character 2 million worth of gear and no indication
> that it would NOT make him nearly bullet-proof.
> I personally don't even think that the character is awfully over-
> powered; he's not hard to take down other ways, as folks have gleefully
> and graphically pointed out. He's a skilled and well equipped specialist
> in physical confrontation, and should be as useful in that situation as a
> powerful initiated mage would be in a magical confrontation. In general,
> he'll be limited in effectiveness in any situation where A) he can't
bring
> gear B) physical combat is not needed C) humongous trolls can't easily
> fit. Most Shadowrun characters have similar limitations.
> Its amazing to me how many people point out that "any character can
be
> dangerous", but many also seem to think there is something "bad" about
> having a big physically dangerous character.
>
> Mongoose

It was just dumb to walk up to the wrong end of 5 assault rifles. But it
does seem that he took a lot of that 2 mil and used it to pump his strenght
and defense up. He probably lacks a lot in speed, would he not? Could just
toss in a guy with WR3 or a move-by-wire and have him aim for as many
combAt turns as possible and fire the last second before the Troll got to
go. Jumps in at the right time with 40+ initiative, he can get in more aim
time than he could effectively use.
Message no. 63
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:37:53 +0100
According to D. Ghost, at 14:47 on 30 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> This is NOT in SSC 2nd Edition :(

Aha. That would explain the confusion, and also makes narcojects more
useful against heavily armored targets (though they still get their armor
to defend, at least in part, but you don't need a huge skill to
successfully attack anymore).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 64
From: Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 17:17:57 +0000
[SNIP!]
> Suggestions on how to deal with this? Are there some armor-ablative rules
> I'm not aware of that might help?

It is a troll with 14 in strength and 14 in body. What is its
willpower then ? :)

"Can you say Manabolt Trogboy!" - Evil Corp Mage

/Stefan


------------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
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... ICQ .................................................. 1403212 ...
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Message no. 65
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 14:18:58 -0600
On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:31:10 -0500 Rick J Federle <griffinhq@****.COM>
writes:
> Don't use a narcojet, use a squirt. Armor doesn't matter with a

>squirt.

But simple chemical sealing will stop it dead. There is a counter for
everything. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 66
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 16:34:59 -0600
On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:37:53 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
<SNIP>
>As an example, last Thursday our group's shaman wanted to use Gecko
Crawl
>to climb a mountain. I looked up the spell's description and found that
it
>had NOTHING to do with the climbing rules from Fields of Fire, published
>quite some time before Awakenings came out. Since the group's physad --
>sorry, _adept_ was also climbing the same mountain and they wanted to
know
>who got to the top first, we had a problem. In the end we solved it by
>changing Gecko Crawl to give a TN reduction equal to the number of
>successes rolled, and lowering the spell's TN to 4 (else the shaman
hardly
>got any successes at all and the spell was pretty useless).
<SNIP>

The Gecko Crawl lets you move at half Quickness rate. So if you want to
move faster, use the running rules. Every success on an Athletics (4)
increases the char's Quickness (before halving) by 1 for the purposes of
determining movement rate.

Looks at FoF ... Wait a second ... Each success raises the movement rate
by *2*??? That can't be right ... It must be a misprint. Shouldn't that
be every two successes raises the movement rate by one?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 67
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 17:53:58 -0800
> > Don't use a narcojet, use a squirt. Armor doesn't matter with a
>
> >squirt.
>
> But simple chemical sealing will stop it dead. There is a counter for
> everything. :)
>
> --
> D. Ghost
> (aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
> "Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
> re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

Not many people have chem seals on normal armor. Heavy stuff, sure, but the
troll has just layered armor with cyber.
Message no. 68
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:37:08 +0100
According to D. Ghost, at 16:34 on 31 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> The Gecko Crawl lets you move at half Quickness rate.

Exactly. While normal climbing rules say you move at one-eighth your total
Quickness + Strength, and have to roll against a TN to do so. IMHO Gecko
Crawl suffers from the same problem many other spells in Awakenings seem
to, namely that they have a flat-out bonus or effect that is totally
independent of the number of successes rolled. Nothing stops you from
taking Gecko Crawl at Force 1, not even in third edition.

My view on Gecko Crawl is not that it lets you crawl like a gecko does
(upside down on smooth surfaces, etc.) but instead, it just makes normal
climbing easier -- the revised version we came up with for our group
reflects that.

> Looks at FoF ... Wait a second ... Each success raises the movement rate
> by *2*??? That can't be right ... It must be a misprint. Shouldn't that
> be every two successes raises the movement rate by one?

Not according to the errata.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 69
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 04:55:25 -0600
:> > Don't use a narcojet, use a squirt. Armor doesn't matter with
a
:>
:> >squirt.
:>
:> But simple chemical sealing will stop it dead. There is a counter for
:> everything. :)

:Not many people have chem seals on normal armor. Heavy stuff, sure, but
the
:troll has just layered armor with cyber.


Doesn't dermal plating (and sheathing) reduce the effects of slap
patches, etc? Does it do the same for DMSO weapons?
I'd think their would be cyber-chemsealed versions of sheathing that
offered nearly complete protection. Not Sweating might be a problem
(maybe it would be nano-modified to have closable pores), but on the
upside, you might also be odorless.

Mongoose
Message no. 70
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 10:39:10 -0600
On Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:37:08 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>According to D. Ghost, at 16:34 on 31 Oct 98, the word on the street
>was...

>> The Gecko Crawl lets you move at half Quickness rate.

>Exactly. While normal climbing rules say you move at one-eighth your
total
>Quickness + Strength, and have to roll against a TN to do so.

One-eighth? My copy say one-fourth.

>IMHO Gecko
>Crawl suffers from the same problem many other spells in Awakenings seem
>to, namely that they have a flat-out bonus or effect that is totally
>independent of the number of successes rolled. Nothing stops you from
>taking Gecko Crawl at Force 1, not even in third edition.
>
>My view on Gecko Crawl is not that it lets you crawl like a gecko does
>(upside down on smooth surfaces, etc.) but instead, it just makes normal
>climbing easier -- the revised version we came up with for our group
>reflects that.

I see. Why don't you just say that one success allows you to climb as if
you had the appropriate gear. Then use the FoF climbing rules,
increasing the movement rate by the number of successes. OR you could
say the Force of the spell reflected how firmly you stuck to the wall
(Ie, if someone wanted to pull you off the wall, they'd have to win in an
opposed strength success test against the spell's Force.).

>> Looks at FoF ... Wait a second ... Each success raises the movement
rate
>> by *2*??? That can't be right ... It must be a misprint. Shouldn't
that
>> be every two successes raises the movement rate by one?

>Not according to the errata.

Oh wait ... just looked at that again ... It's +2 to the average Strength
& Quickness which is then divided by 4... so it IS ervery two successes
raises the movement rate by one. :) Sorry.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 71
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 19:55:20 +0100
According to D. Ghost, at 10:39 on 1 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> >Exactly. While normal climbing rules say you move at one-eighth your
> total
> >Quickness + Strength, and have to roll against a TN to do so.
>
> One-eighth? My copy say one-fourth.

FoF says one-fourth the average of Quickness and Strength, which is the
same as one-eighth their total, my way of writing it just cuts out the
middle step of first dividing by 2 and then by 4.

> >My view on Gecko Crawl is not that it lets you crawl like a gecko does
> >(upside down on smooth surfaces, etc.) but instead, it just makes normal
> >climbing easier -- the revised version we came up with for our group
> >reflects that.
>
> I see. Why don't you just say that one success allows you to climb as if
> you had the appropriate gear.

Because then the Force doesn't matter one bit. Force 1 is enough to be
able to climb without problems. If you give a TN modifier based on the
successes rolled, the higher the Force gets, the better you'll climb.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I hope I learn what makes me look at things so wrong.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 72
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 15:42:35 -0600
On Sun, 1 Nov 1998 19:55:20 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>According to D. Ghost, at 10:39 on 1 Nov 98, the word on the street
>was...
<SNIP>
>> >My view on Gecko Crawl is not that it lets you crawl like a gecko
does
>> >(upside down on smooth surfaces, etc.) but instead, it just makes
normal
>> >climbing easier -- the revised version we came up with for our group
>> >reflects that.

>> I see. Why don't you just say that one success allows you to climb as
if
>> you had the appropriate gear.

>Because then the Force doesn't matter one bit. Force 1 is enough to be
>able to climb without problems. If you give a TN modifier based on the
>successes rolled, the higher the Force gets, the better you'll climb.

Gurth ... You only responded to half my suggestion. What about the part
about the Force of the spell reflecting how strongly the character sticks
to the wall. You could even use the hanging and dangling rules from
Cybertechnology (which would then REQUIRE a high Force for many if not
most characters.)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 73
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:22:15 +1100
> > From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.bc.ca>
>
> <snip>
>
> > Ballistic 8?!? What's he wearing for armor?
>
> Most common combo that i've seen is Rating 3 Bod armor and a sec.
> jacket.
> Dikote the both of them and voila 8/5 I believe it is. Thankfully
> under
> SR3 the penalties would get rather nasty for this sort of thing.
(Caric)

Errr, Caric. You can't Dikote body armour unless it's security grade or
better. Armoured jackets, armoured clothing and the like - they're all
soft armour - they MELT.


> BTW your reply to: field is overriding the list H-Man.
>
TOLD you, Hatchet. :)

*Doc' tries to Dikote his head...I'll leave the details up to your no
doubt vivid imaginations...*

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 74
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:45:41 -0500
Caric wrote:
> From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
>> 8 points of ballistic is possible with a secure jacket, orthoskin,
>> titanium bone lacing, and a cybertorso with 5 points of soft armor.
>
>Wouldn't the above combination give you an armor rating of 12/11?

It depends on how you interpret the rules in Cybertechnology (ct.49). The "5
points of soft armor" on the cybertorso do not translate directly into armor
rating. Armor can be added to cyberlimbs, -torsos and -skull. The book
claims that to find the armor rating, you must average the armor from all
peices to find the armor rating. Since only the torso is cyber, by the book,
you would divide the 5 points by 1, yielding a +5/+5 to armor.

This makes zero sense to me. If I take the exact same character, and and
replace all of his limbs with _unarmored_ cyber, by the rules, I suddenly
have to divide the 5 points on the torso by 5 (the now total number of
possible armored locations). This means that by replacing flesh with metal,
I've _reduced_ the armor bonus by 80%.

It makes much more sense to me to always divide by a single number, no
matter if you have cyber there or not. I choose the number 5 (1 each for the
limbs and 1 for the torso/head). This would mean that you would always
divide by 5, no matter if you had cyber (armored or not) in a "location".

Wordman
Message no. 75
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:54:32 -0500
Mongoose wrote:
:Wordman wrote:
>:Spirit powers are also wicked on walking
>:tanks, because the usually involve resisted success tests with _Essence_,
>:which means the tank is usually wicked hosed.

> I don't know of any power that is resisted by essence in SR2 or 3.

Hmmm. My bad. I was positive that I'd seen a bunch of powers using opposed
Essence tests. Pity. That would be one of their most useful features. Sorry
of the misinformation.

Wordman
Message no. 76
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:22:02 +0100
According to D. Ghost, at 15:42 on 1 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> Gurth ... You only responded to half my suggestion. What about the part
> about the Force of the spell reflecting how strongly the character sticks
> to the wall. You could even use the hanging and dangling rules from
> Cybertechnology (which would then REQUIRE a high Force for many if not
> most characters.)

That would also be a solution, granted, but one going in a different
direction than the one we came up with. I don't think the spell should do
both at once...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I hope I learn what makes me look at things so wrong.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 77
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 13:24:58 +0100
And so it came to happen that Wordman wrote:
<snip>
> This makes zero sense to me. If I take the exact same character, and and
> replace all of his limbs with _unarmored_ cyber, by the rules, I suddenly
> have to divide the 5 points on the torso by 5 (the now total number of
> possible armored locations). This means that by replacing flesh with metal,
> I've _reduced_ the armor bonus by 80%.
>
> It makes much more sense to me to always divide by a single number, no
> matter if you have cyber there or not. I choose the number 5 (1 each for the
> limbs and 1 for the torso/head). This would mean that you would always
> divide by 5, no matter if you had cyber (armored or not) in a "location".

Sounds more logical to me than the FASA rulings. Brings another question
to my mind.
That follows in a new Thread.

--
---> Steadfast...Selfproclaimed Protector of Gerber BABY's
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Uh, 089 of 200 it states in Gerber BABY...
Message no. 78
From: Gene Evans <downd@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 06:14:47 -0700
Have an airliner crash on him while he is walking down the street. It's quick, simple,
and certainly lethal, and it is every bit as fair as the other methods suggested on the
list. Doesn't anyone have a problem with a GM targeting a player's character in this
manner? I mean, he didn't get caught using loaded dice or lying about target numbers or
other such heinous offences. As I understand the situation all he did was upgrade his
troll's cyberware with the GM's permission after which the GM decided that the character
was now too effective in combat. If anyone is at fault in this it is the GM for allowing
the troll too much defensive cyberware, or perhaps FASA for not considering the effects on
combat of allowing trolls to have such sky-high Body scores. The combat system breaks down
when Body scores get up into the teens but that is not the player's fault. If a GM went
after one of my characters in the manner suggested in this weekend's posts I would never
game with him again. I probably wouldn't play with him if he attacked another player's
character like that.

My own suggestion for the troll problem: reduce the troll racial adjustment from +5
Body to +2, instead add +1 to Intelligence, Charisma and Willpower. This is easy enough to
rationalize, trolls are bigger than other races but they are still made of flesh and bone,
not magically animated rock like obsidimen in Earthdawn. Bulk and toughness are two
different things. It would also lessen the problem of trolls being able to pack huge
amounts of bioware into their bodies. I would also consider changing the Body bonuses from
dermal armor and other cyberware into armor bonuses. Since no amount of armor can reduce
weapon power below 2 this would also tend to reduce troll invulnerability. As a player I
would not mind these changes because they would allow me to start a troll at Willpower 6
which I strongly prefer since lower attribute scores are too vulnerable to magic for my
liking. For orks give them +2 Body and normal Intelligence; they have enough problems
being ugly and short-lived, they don't need to be stupid too.

Have fun,
Gene

downd@***********.com


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Message no. 79
From: Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:33:11 -0500
On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Gurth wrote:

> According to Jester, at 10:43 on 30 Oct 98, the word on the street was...
>
> > This way, he has to think (and roleplay) to survive, instead of being
> > able to shoot his way through trouble...
>
> I don't think this is really the problem; it appears to me that the
> problem in this case is that in a firefight, this troll doesn't take any
> damage. For all we know the player is a very good roleplayer who just
> chose to roleplay a big tough troll.
>
As it turns out, he's been retooling the character downwards. So the
problem should be solved.

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.
Message no. 80
From: Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:35:25 -0500
On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Mongoose wrote:

> As for the Mana spells; If theres a mage in this party, he should
> protect the troll, who seems to be doing a bang-up job of handling mundane
> threats.
>
There is, and for ease of explaining the problem I omitted that there were
two combat mages in the group as well. The team maged backed him up and
he took no damage from them either, but that's ok imo.

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.
Message no. 81
From: Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:40:40 -0500
On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Steve Collins wrote:

> A better way to handle it would be to change the last two guards on the
> fly, make them better skilled and have better equipment than the first
> three thereby giving them more successes, or if you are in the habit of
> hiding your dice this is even easier, just lie about how many successes
> the guy got. Figure 8 successes to stage deadly down to nothing and he
> has 14 dice so give the guy 7 successes which guarantees a light wound
> and probably means at least a moderate. This way you ensure damage while
> not seeming to just decide by GM fiat that he gets hurt which is likely
> to upset the player.
>
I could have done that but the situation didn't warrant it. This was the
first batch of guys on the scene and they weren't very skilled. My basic
problem is that he got shot by assault rifles. I can't imagine what kind
of damage 30 bullets from 5 AK-97s would do to, say, a brick wall.

I wasn't looking to put him down. I prefer to whittle my characters away
with a light wound here, a light wound there. The problem in this case is
that I couldn't even get a light wound on the troll in the first place.
I'd have settled for 3 lights, even considering the player did a couple
stupid things such as running around the corner right into five guys he
knew were right there and not taking cover. This situation will probably
rectify itself when he does the same thing to a higher powered
security team in the future.

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.
Message no. 82
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:47:19 -0800
> As it turns out, he's been retooling the character downwards. So the
> problem should be solved.
>

How bulletproof is he now? Late last night, deep in the throes of boredom,
I was doing test rolls for someone with 14 body, 8 ballistic, and combat
pools ranging from 8 to 11 defending from various bursts and full auto
shots from a guy with firearms skills of 4 and 6, with combat pool of 6 to
9 and a smartlink or laser from a M22a2 with a bit better venting. (I was
_really_ bored) and probably 10% of the time, the first 3 bursts would do a
light wound, but the 4th and 5th would almost always get a light, and
usually a moderate. But when I tried 6 and 7 round bursts, it would at the
minimum do a moderate wound, but more often it would do serious or higher.
Message no. 83
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:36:34 -0600
: Have an airliner crash on him while he is walking down the street.
It's quick, simple, and certainly lethal, and it is every bit as fair as
the other methods suggested on the list. Doesn't anyone have a problem
with a GM targeting a player's character in this manner?

++++++++++++
I pointed out that it seemed unnecessary, given the case. I don't
think the GM wanted to target that player; he just felt tha player had
done something dumb, and was wondering why the rules did not reflect his
feelings. It seems more that those who responded felt the player was a
twonk whose character should be maimed in more or less creative and
graphic ways.
++++++++++++


If a GM went after one of my characters in the manner suggested in this
weekend's posts I would never game with him again. I probably wouldn't
play with him if he attacked another player's character like that.

++++++++++++
That depends. If he kept acting the way he did, he'd run into
SOMETHING that would hurt him. I played a real ass kicker for a while,
and took pretty radical risks. Ocasionally, they backfired; on one very
ordinary room entry, I got my wired 3 blown out my back. (We were raiding
a small Aztaln highway patrol station, and they clearly DO have Ares
aplha's with APDS ammo, and the skill to use them well. Sure, I dodged
the acid stream, but I didn't see the mundy cop...)
I wasn't pissed, cause I didn't feel "targeted". I'd just pushed my
luck a little to far- because that was, to my mind, my characters job.
I'd no less think Mages should feel "targeted" if a site has astral
security.
+++++++++++


: My own suggestion for the troll problem: reduce the troll racial
adjustment from +5 Body to +2, instead add +1 to Intelligence, Charisma
and Willpower. This is easy enough to rationalize, trolls are bigger than
other races but they are still made of flesh and bone, not magically
animated rock like obsidimen in Earthdawn. Bulk and toughness are two
different things.

++++++++++++++
That would put them right on the level of current orcs. Why decrtease
racial variety that much? After cyber and setting "bad" attributtes high,
all characters of a type start to have remarklably similar stats anyhow.
A human can get a 14 body if they want...
Troll flesh is substantially tougher (thier muscle tissue is denser).
Without armor, they don't always resist damage much better than norms
(whats 3 succeses VS 6 as opposed to 1, when the dmage is 6D, with 2 extra
succeses?). With armor, they have several extra inches of tough skin and
muscular padding to soak up blunt trauma that would affect human organs,
so should be well protected. Note that, for thier given hieght, thier
mass is way low- a 3 meter human could easily weight 500 kilo's.
Thats a lot of bulk, even if it doesn't translate directly to
toughness! A bigger target will have deeper wounds (check the Navy
virtual hospital emergency warfare medical section for neato bullet track
pictures), But those wounds will be lineraly deeper (not also wider or
taller), and not always worse than those in a human sized target. On the
other hand, thier blood volume (blood loss being the main effect off
trauma) will increase as the cube of hieght. So you reasonably need six
shots to hurt a twice human size troll, compared to the damage one shot
would do a human.
++++++++++++

It would also lessen the problem of trolls being able to pack huge
amounts of bioware into their bodies.

+++++++++++
They still have to worry about doubling and attributte with bioware
("System overstress")- whic trolls do more easily than most, given thier
low natural reaction, quickness, and intellegence.
+++++++++++

I would also consider changing the Body bonuses from dermal armor and
other cyberware into armor bonuses. Since no amount of armor can reduce
weapon power below 2 this would also tend to reduce troll invulnerability.
As a player I would not mind these changes because they would allow me to
start a troll at Willpower 6 which I strongly prefer since lower attribute
scores are too vulnerable to magic for my liking. For orks give them +2
Body and normal Intelligence; they have enough problems being ugly and
short-lived, they don't need to be stupid too.


++++++++++
I don't feel that the combat system DOES break down with bodies in the
teens (which are admittedly rare in our games). As others pointed out,
their a plenty of ways to hurt those guys, even using cheep ass assault
rifles (which is why we rarely bother with troll characters- not so hard
to down, and impossible for the rest of the party to drag to safety- their
size is a HUGE nuisance). Also, you might note that in SR3, trolls DON'T
have a willpower penalty.
+++++++++++

Mongoose
Message no. 84
From: Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:17:33 -0500
On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Hatchetman wrote:

> > As it turns out, he's been retooling the character downwards. So the
> > problem should be solved.
> >
>
> How bulletproof is he now?

Don't know. We play tomorrow, we'll find out then, grin.

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.
Message no. 85
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:34:44 -0800
> > How bulletproof is he now?
>
> Don't know. We play tomorrow, we'll find out then, grin.
>
> Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
> http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
> Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points
between.

Heh. You're the GM aren't ya? You should make up some excuse to see the
sheet ahead of time. "Needs GM approval" or something like that. Make sure
you let us know how bad you hurt him tho.
Message no. 86
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 20:25:53 -0600
-----Original Message-----
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Monday, November 02, 1998 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?


:> > How bulletproof is he now?
:>
:> Don't know. We play tomorrow, we'll find out then, grin.
:>
:
:Heh. You're the GM aren't ya? You should make up some excuse to see the
:sheet ahead of time. "Needs GM approval" or something like that. Make
sure
:you let us know how bad you hurt him tho.


More than that, you should know what equipment he is getting, unless
you intentionally are allowing "sky's the limit" availability (which we
did once with a npc, when running a side game- that 2,000,000 ¥ troll was
similarly powerful). Also, the GM has final say as to how much getting
all that cyberware installed would cost, and the surgeons skill rolls can
affect essence cost and body index.
I'm not advocating excessive GM intrusion, or "keeping a lid on"- its
just that the rules as written seem to require GM involvement
(availability rolls, surgery rolls, etc). Of course, you can, as a plot
device, give him a "overhaul" that isn't limited by normal rules. In
fact, that's about the only way most PC's could ever get such work- BTB,
cyber upgrades are amazingly costly, when you consider surgery costs,
recovery, and Black clinic fees.

Mongoose
Message no. 87
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:42:25 -0800
> More than that, you should know what equipment he is getting, unless
> you intentionally are allowing "sky's the limit" availability (which we
> did once with a npc, when running a side game- that 2,000,000 ¥ troll was
> similarly powerful). Also, the GM has final say as to how much getting
> all that cyberware installed would cost, and the surgeons skill rolls can
> affect essence cost and body index.
> I'm not advocating excessive GM intrusion, or "keeping a lid on"- its
> just that the rules as written seem to require GM involvement
> (availability rolls, surgery rolls, etc). Of course, you can, as a plot
> device, give him a "overhaul" that isn't limited by normal rules. In
> fact, that's about the only way most PC's could ever get such work- BTB,
> cyber upgrades are amazingly costly, when you consider surgery costs,
> recovery, and Black clinic fees.
>
> Mongoose

Yeah. Every character I've ever done I've taken to the GM at least a week
before so he could work it into the plotlines, and he normally says yes and
no to a few things and pesters me for more background (stuff he can abuse.
I've gotten good at making life stories that aren't likely to get me
killed. He doesn't like that),does a few rolls for cyberware and things
like that.
Had to do a major rebuild once. Very not fun. Surgery costs topped
300,000¥. I was annoyed.
Message no. 88
From: Cernunnos Morrigu <cmorrigu@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 21:26:05 -0500
On 10/30/98, at 5:20 PM, Mongoose wrote:

> If the rules seem to indicate to the player that an action will have a
>certain outcome, then acting on those expectations is NOT against common
>sense. In this case, the guy got shot at ten time and was unhurt, by the
>stock
>rules; I think it was reasonable for him to assume he was safe, and saying
>he acted stupidly and should be hurt goes against "common sense". It also
>is patently "unfair", in my opinion- why should the rules change in just
>that situation?

So you're saying that anyone who can exploit the rules should be able to?
Unless he was wearing military-grade armor (i.e. and honest-to-diety
walking tank), I see no way at all he could "assume" he was safe.

> Now, if the character had previously seen, even in one instance, a
>bullet get past that much amour to hurt somebody (unless you are saying
>these are the first 30 bullets to ever hit anybody in that game), he'd
>have some basis on which to make assumptions of "common sense".
> It's also "common sense" that stray bullets hit folks in the head and
>spine, through dumb luck, but it doesn't happen in most SR games, and most
>players would not expect it to happen.

I find this kind of reasoning hard to believe. But... Suppose no one
had yet walked in front of 10 guys with automatic weapons -- Shouldn't one
"assume" that there was a reason for that? (like, duh, someone would get
hurt doing that)

> A lot of people responding to this thread seem to think the player did
>something awfully wrong and should be punished; in fact, as far as I can
>tell, the GM gave his character 2 million worth of gear and no indication
>that it would NOT make him nearly bullet-proof.
> <snip>
> Its amazing to me how many people point out that "any character can be
>dangerous", but many also seem to think there is something "bad" about
>having a big physically dangerous character.

I'm not saying anything either way, I was just pointing out how I would
handle it. Then again, I tend to be know as a hardass GM, so...



Back to biz,
-CM
---
Cernunnos Morrigu | "Summer, check that door!"
cmorrigu@********.net | **BOOM**
http://members.xoom.com/cmorrigu/sr/ | "Ok, check the next one, too."
Message no. 89
From: Cernunnos Morrigu <cmorrigu@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 21:29:02 -0500
On 10/30/98, at 6:42 PM, Steve Collins wrote:
>A better way to handle it would be to change the last two guards on the
>fly, make them better skilled and have better equipment than the first
>three thereby giving them more successes, or if you are in the habit of
>hiding your dice this is even easier, just lie about how many successes
>the guy got. Figure 8 successes to stage deadly down to nothing and he
>has 14 dice so give the guy 7 successes which guarantees a light wound
>and probably means at least a moderate. This way you ensure damage while
>not seeming to just decide by GM fiat that he gets hurt which is likely
>to upset the player.

I like your attitude ^_^ I guess I should have mentioned I always make
hidden rolls, so this works better than if all rolls are open.



Back to biz,
-CM
---
Cernunnos Morrigu | "Summer, check that door!"
cmorrigu@********.net | **BOOM**
http://members.xoom.com/cmorrigu/sr/ | "Ok, check the next one, too."
Message no. 90
From: Cernunnos Morrigu <cmorrigu@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 21:54:19 -0500
On 10/31/98, at 2:20 AM, Hatchetman wrote:

>Yeah, my AD&D DM is like that. If one of us pulls off something _really_
>boneheaded, but we roll a natural 20 and dodge it, even though it'd be
>physically impossible, the DM just says, you took XX damage from whatever.
>Power of being the GM, you don't have to listen to the dice.

Actually... I don't know how many people do this, but we always allow for
luck... If you are somehow able to roll a 61 (example) in SR for doing
something, it might be enough for you to survive something really stupid.
I guess it's a house rule, but every time I've played, I've seen it used.
Of course, since the exact number is left to the GM, it still allows for
plenty of flexibility.



Back to biz,
-CM
---
Cernunnos Morrigu | "Summer, check that door!"
cmorrigu@********.net | **BOOM**
http://members.xoom.com/cmorrigu/sr/ | "Ok, check the next one, too."
Message no. 91
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:51:49 -0600
: So you're saying that anyone who can exploit the rules should be able
to?
: Unless he was wearing military-grade armor (i.e. and honest-to-diety
:walking tank), I see no way at all he could "assume" he was safe.

I'm saying that the primary indicator of what "should" happen is the
games rules. Just what constitutes "exploiting" them is purely opinion.
If, in a certain case, rules are being misused, thats one thing. But that
should be handled as a change to the rules that is universally aplied, not
as GM fiat in on situation.
It seemed likely, by the rules, he would not be badly hurt. Maybe
that was bad role-playing (he might not know thier guns can't go full
auto, or have an exposed head, or whatever), but its not a "rules
exploit", any more than using a "barrier" spell would be. (Gee, do I
really need the force 9, or will barrier 8 hold off assult rifles?)


:> Now, if the character had previously seen, even in one instance, a
:>bullet get past that much amour to hurt somebody (unless you are saying
:>these are the first 30 bullets to ever hit anybody in that game), he'd
:>have some basis on which to make assumptions of "common sense".
:> It's also "common sense" that stray bullets hit folks in the head
and
:>spine, through dumb luck, but it doesn't happen in most SR games, and
most
:>players would not expect it to happen.
:
: I find this kind of reasoning hard to believe. But... Suppose no one
:had yet walked in front of 10 guys with automatic weapons -- Shouldn't
one
:"assume" that there was a reason for that? (like, duh, someone would get
:hurt doing that)

What reasoning do you find hard to believe? In all the fights I've
done in SR, its never been said "By dumb luck, that shot did more damage
than the rules indicated it should have". If the GM chucked 30 bullets at
my character, and they did more damage than the rules said they should, I
would wonder why NONE of the other (estimating) 500 rounds that have hit
people did NOT do that. <Shrug> Maybe it has- thats a lot of dead extras,
you know? But its never happened to any PC, or any NPC that seemed to be
a threat.
The situation does not have to be identical; I just think it would be
unfair to the player to spring that kind of thing with no indication that
gunfire does sometimes have unexpected effects, like damage the rules say
it would not cause. (which, in real life, it certainly does, but as I
mentioned, in the many SR fights I've seen, it has not)


: I'm not saying anything either way, I was just pointing out how I would
:handle it. Then again, I tend to be know as a hardass GM, so...


Hardass GMing is fine. Pulling damage out of your ass is not.
There's plenty of BTB ways the guy could have gotten hurt in that case
which, if required, should be used instead of resorting to "you take
damage because I say so". It might amount to the same thing (lying about
how well you rolled, for example, or changing previously undescribed
equipment on the fly), but It doesn't result in the players ability to
understand the game world getting twisted by events that happen outside
any framework of rules.
If 5 players laid into your big-ass armored badguy that way, would you
have him be injured, even if the rules said he was not? If they insisted
that he should be, even though the rules said he was not, wouldn't that be
lame?

Mongoose
Message no. 92
From: Justin Elliott <justin.elliott@********.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:54:37 +1300
> What reasoning do you find hard to believe? In all the fights I've
>done in SR, its never been said "By dumb luck, that shot did more damage
>than the rules indicated it should have". If the GM chucked 30 bullets at
>my character, and they did more damage than the rules said they should, I
>would wonder why NONE of the other (estimating) 500 rounds that have hit
>people did NOT do that. <Shrug> Maybe it has- thats a lot of dead extras,
>you know? But its never happened to any PC, or any NPC that seemed to be
>a threat.

I may just be being dence but isn't this exactly what damage staging
represents. For example it is possible to satge a hold-out up to Deadly
damage, doesn't this represent a "hit" in some vital area? (I know that
skill has a lot to do with this staging but it is possible for an unskilled
character to use combat pool to stage the damage... is that dumb luck?).

Justin.
Message no. 93
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 19:40:29 -0600
:> What reasoning do you find hard to believe? In all the fights I've
:>done in SR, its never been said "By dumb luck, that shot did more damage
:>than the rules indicated it should have". If the GM chucked 30 bullets
at
:>my character, and they did more damage than the rules said they should,
I
:>would wonder why NONE of the other (estimating) 500 rounds that have hit
:>people did NOT do that. <Shrug> Maybe it has- thats a lot of dead
extras,
:>you know? But its never happened to any PC, or any NPC that seemed to
be
:>a threat.
:
:I may just be being dence but isn't this exactly what damage staging
:represents. For example it is possible to satge a hold-out up to Deadly
:damage, doesn't this represent a "hit" in some vital area? (I know that
:skill has a lot to do with this staging but it is possible for an
unskilled
:character to use combat pool to stage the damage... is that dumb luck?).


That doesn't happen in SR because the combat pool used on an attack
test is limited to the skill. SR3 allows limited skill use while
defaulting, but still, you either need to have skill, or a good default
and a lot of luck, do do something like kill a person with a holdout (with
one shot).
I think some of the optional "area fire" rules in FoF add a random
number of "successes" for staging purposes (a d6, iirc).

So yes, staging represents a hit to a vital location. But, in SR,
those kind of hits don't happen without skill, and don't often affect big,
well armored targets- unlike in real life. If you wanted to add them, you
maybe could (I'd roll 2 d4, one positive, one negative, and add that to
the attack successes). It would shake things up a bit (which is why I
suggested that mechanism- the change is equal in both directions, and
usually small).

Mongoose
Message no. 94
From: Cernunnos Morrigu <cmorrigu@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:04:39 -0500
On 11/4/98, at 1:51 PM, Mongoose wrote:

> I'm saying that the primary indicator of what "should" happen is the
>games rules. Just what constitutes "exploiting" them is purely opinion.
>If, in a certain case, rules are being misused, thats one thing. But that
>should be handled as a change to the rules that is universally aplied, not
>as GM fiat in on situation.
> It seemed likely, by the rules, he would not be badly hurt. Maybe
>that was bad role-playing (he might not know thier guns can't go full
>auto, or have an exposed head, or whatever), but its not a "rules
>exploit", any more than using a "barrier" spell would be. (Gee, do I
>really need the force 9, or will barrier 8 hold off assult rifles?)

I agree here, it was just the way the first example was phrased that I
took exception to.

> What reasoning do you find hard to believe? In all the fights I've
>done in SR, its never been said "By dumb luck, that shot did more damage
>than the rules indicated it should have". If the GM chucked 30 bullets at
>my character, and they did more damage than the rules said they should, I
>would wonder why NONE of the other (estimating) 500 rounds that have hit
>people did NOT do that. <Shrug> Maybe it has- thats a lot of dead extras,
>you know? But its never happened to any PC, or any NPC that seemed to be
>a threat.

However, I HAVE had fights go that way... "Gee, that little holdout sure
did a lot of damage..." I still don't agree with your viewpoint here.
There's a reason 30 rounds concentrated on one person should do damage, and
if they hadn't seen someone previously be so stupid as to walk out in front
of that kind of firepower, then that's good - it means other people were
smarter.

> The situation does not have to be identical; I just think it would be
>unfair to the player to spring that kind of thing with no indication that
>gunfire does sometimes have unexpected effects, like damage the rules say
>it would not cause. (which, in real life, it certainly does, but as I
>mentioned, in the many SR fights I've seen, it has not)

As I stated before, the player would never know, but he would take damage
by the rules. My earlier statement was my thoughts on the matter if it
came up, and I would make sure he took damage of some sort... unless he
rolled an unbelieveable number to resist some of them, then I might agree
that through a stroke of luck he didn't take any - but even here I'd make
sure the player knew he was lucky, and to pass that on to his character.

> Hardass GMing is fine. Pulling damage out of your ass is not.
>There's plenty of BTB ways the guy could have gotten hurt in that case
>which, if required, should be used instead of resorting to "you take
>damage because I say so". It might amount to the same thing (lying about
>how well you rolled, for example, or changing previously undescribed
>equipment on the fly), but It doesn't result in the players ability to
>understand the game world getting twisted by events that happen outside
>any framework of rules.

Which is what I do. And I'm not fond of rules lawyers and BTB fanatics.
I run a hardass yet flexible style which, although characters tend to take
lots of damage, the players seem to enjoy. And the final rule is always
GM's word, so nothing happens outside it. Ever.

> If 5 players laid into your big-ass armored badguy that way, would you
>have him be injured, even if the rules said he was not? If they insisted
>that he should be, even though the rules said he was not, wouldn't that be
>lame?

It would depend on the situation, but I could definately go either way.
What's more important to me is the overall plan rather than the individual
elements. Entire runs have been stopped cold because the characters
couldn't handle a secretary or second-string security guard. And I will
allow them to contest things if they think they are really out of line,
that's fine... As long as they can convince me of the reality they see with
it, and are not just trying to make things easier for themselves.





Back to biz,
-CM
---
Cernunnos Morrigu | "Summer, check that door!"
cmorrigu@********.net | **BOOM**
http://members.xoom.com/cmorrigu/sr/ | "Ok, check the next one, too."
Message no. 95
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:12:44 -0600
:There's a reason 30 rounds concentrated on one person should do damage,
and
:if they hadn't seen someone previously be so stupid as to walk out in
front
:of that kind of firepower, then that's good - it means other people were
:smarter.

I don't see the reason such fire would always cause injury. The
infamous "armored L.A bank robbers" took more hits than that, and seemed
to be OK. They were killed with assult rifles, but they were also
(physically) normal people in current day armor.
The rules exist partly to tell us when such things outside our normal
experience might happen. Given that, you have to think seriously before
overturning an "unlikely" result- perhaps doubly so when it seems highly
unlikely.

: As I stated before, the player would never know, but he would take
damage
:by the rules. My earlier statement was my thoughts on the matter if it
:came up, and I would make sure he took damage of some sort... unless he
:rolled an unbelieveable number to resist some of them, then I might agree
:that through a stroke of luck he didn't take any - but even here I'd make
:sure the player knew he was lucky, and to pass that on to his character.

When you said "would take dmage of some sort" I assumed there was no
given reason for the damage besides "he SHOULD get hurt". If theres some
logical reason (rules based, or even a consitastanly aplied GM fiat),
that's a lot better, IMO.

^^0^9053
Message no. 96
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Troll Sam: 14str 14bod. How to hurt this guy?
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:35:31 -0800
> I don't see the reason such fire would always cause injury. The
> infamous "armored L.A bank robbers" took more hits than that, and seemed
> to be OK. They were killed with assult rifles, but they were also
> (physically) normal people in current day armor.
> The rules exist partly to tell us when such things outside our normal
> experience might happen. Given that, you have to think seriously before
> overturning an "unlikely" result- perhaps doubly so when it seems highly
> unlikely.

Actually, the first one was taken down with a panicked snap shot to the
head at close range as he came around a corner to where one cop was taking
cover. The second was first dropped with a pistol round that was fired
under two cars and hit him in the foot. But the amount of armor they had
layered was amazing. When they stripped their armor off, they said it
looked like the remains of at least 10 vests.
And an AR-15 is NOT an assault rifle.

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