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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Russ Parker)
Subject: Trolls - How Big Are They
Date: Thu May 9 13:30:01 2002
Ok. This has come up before, but a recent comment brings it up again.

********************
ok, this is gonna be a change of topic but I have SERIOUS issues with this,
if a troll is supposed to be 9'3 on average, weigh about 1000 pounds,
there's no way in hell they're going to use a regular person's weapon, they
won't be able to get their massive hands onto it, weapons need to be
designed for TROLLS, granted they'll be more expensive, they're also going
to be either much larger in caliber or they're going to have vastly less
recoil due to the extra weight of the gun
********************

Trolls are listed as being an average of 2.8m tall and 225 kg. People seem
to fixate on the 2.8 m and state that the 225 kg is way too light, etc...
etc... etc... It is far more reasonable to assume that the 225 kg (~500
lbs) is the valid number and that the 2.8 m is wrong.

Trolls get a (IIRC) +4 STR and +5 BDY. So an average one will be STR 7 and
BDY 8. Lets look at the upper range of today's human Biggness. Andre The
Giant - 7'5" and 530lbs
(http://www.angelfire.com/al/andrethegiant/bio.html). For those that want a
more current example The Big Show is 7'2" and 500 lbs. I would argue that
those two are upwards of what should be considered racial maximas for
Humans. At least close. Hence values of 7-8 would reasonable.

Those two are good example of what an average Troll might be. An even
better example might be a cross between one of them and a Mountain Gorilla -
a little shorter, but heavier and with longer arms (+1 reach). People this
big cannot fit in small cars or shop in normal stores. (something about
Trolls having to spend 150% of cost for suitable sized items comes to mind).
However they can still basically function and interact in our general world.
At 9'+ a Troll would not be a feasible PC. They would be unable enter any
normal vehicles except those that had a decent Cargo bay. They would be
unable to use most standard equipment. Put on a pair of ski-gloves and try
typing. While you can choose to have Trolls be of this size I do not think
that it is what FASA intends. The rules that are in the book for Trolls are
no where near limiting enough if they are 9'+ and 1000 lbs+ for average
sized ones. All equipment would have to be Custom and would cost easily
2-300%+ more. Especially since the Troll population is not large enough or
wealthy enough to support a lot of specialty shops.

Enormous trolls are kind of fun to think about, but they just do not work if
you actually impose the kind of limitations on them that they would need to
have. Got a Troll on your team? Forget about going into the Sewers to
infiltrate a building. Use a getaway car? Don't think so... how about that
light cargo van? Going to walk around in a normal building? Better slouch.
The ceilings in the office building I working in are ~9' tall. If Trolls
were in fact that big then they would have even more significant bonuses
that they already do and that would be unbalancing. Something that big
would be able to handle a pistol in the 20mm+ range and redefine what
"Man-Portable" means.

Russell Parker
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Andrew Murdoch)
Subject: Trolls - How Big Are They
Date: Thu May 9 14:05:01 2002
> ok, this is gonna be a change of topic but I have SERIOUS issues with this,
> if a troll is supposed to be 9'3 on average, weigh about 1000 pounds,
> there's no way in hell they're going to use a regular person's weapon, they
> won't be able to get their massive hands onto it, weapons need to be
> designed for TROLLS, granted they'll be more expensive, they're also going
> to be either much larger in caliber or they're going to have vastly less
> recoil due to the extra weight of the gun

I believe weapon customization for trolls wanting to use small weapons
(for whatever reason) are available, although I still insist that most
trolls would indeed use an assault cannon as a shotgun...

In my game, while trolls are about 9 feet tall, they're only averaging
about 500 pounds.

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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Russ Parker)
Subject: Trolls - How Big Are They
Date: Thu May 9 14:25:01 2002
**********
In my game, while trolls are about 9 feet tall, they're only averaging about
500 pounds.
**********

Then they end up being thinner and more slightly built than Elves. A 9'
tall 500 lbs Troll would be proportionately equivalent to a 6' tall 150 lbs
Human. (9' * 2/3 = 6'. 500 lbs * (2/3)^3 = 148lbs) That is cool if that
it what you are looking for, but I think that Trolls are generally thought
of as being Big and Broad not Tall and Thin.

**********
I still insist that most trolls would indeed use an assault cannon as a
shotgun...
**********

You would probably be better off as a 6' tall 280lb human with an AC that
your Troll above. (although I would not want to try it!) The higher firing
position and the lower relative mass would give you an ugly lever arm.
Certainly The Big Show at 7'2" and 500 lbs would have a much better time of
it that your Troll.

Just some thoughts,

Russell Parker
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Trolls - How Big Are They
Date: Thu May 9 16:40:02 2002
> Ok. This has come up before, but a recent comment brings it up again.
>
> ********************
> ok, this is gonna be a change of topic but I have SERIOUS issues with
> this,
> if a troll is supposed to be 9'3 on average, weigh about 1000 pounds,
> there's no way in hell they're going to use a regular person's weapon,
> they
> won't be able to get their massive hands onto it, weapons need to be
> designed for TROLLS, granted they'll be more expensive, they're also
going
> to be either much larger in caliber or they're going to have vastly
less
> recoil due to the extra weight of the gun
> ********************
>
> Trolls are listed as being an average of 2.8m tall and 225 kg. People
> seem
> to fixate on the 2.8 m and state that the 225 kg is way too light,
etc...
> etc... etc... It is far more reasonable to assume that the 225 kg
(~500
> lbs) is the valid number and that the 2.8 m is wrong.
>
> Trolls get a (IIRC) +4 STR and +5 BDY. So an average one will be STR
7
> and
> BDY 8.
Ok here's the problem, go through the Shadowrun Supplimental issues, I
believe it was issue 13 that someone put together an article that went
through and CORRECTED all of the heights and weights for all of the
races, the average troll based on muscle/bone density, size ratio, and
descriptions of their sizes in the book in relation to a human is 9'2"
tall and 1083lbs with an average body of 8 and an average strength of 7,
in comparison to what an average human is (body 3 strength 3 5'7" tall
weighing 155lbs) this fits the description of how large they should be.
For further clarification on the location of said article it starts on
page 28 of TSS #13, if you're going to argue my use of those rules then
I'd highly suggest you read them first because after reading them they
made great sense. Aside from that, thanks for playing and choosing to
criticize published rule sets, but if everyone said they were broken and
someone fixed it, why reinvent the wheel every time eh?
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject: Trolls - How Big Are They
Date: Thu May 9 18:05:07 2002
Russ,


> Then they end up being thinner and more slightly built than Elves. A 9'
> tall 500 lbs Troll would be proportionately equivalent to a 6' tall 150 lbs
> Human. (9' * 2/3 = 6'. 500 lbs * (2/3)^3 = 148lbs) That is cool if that
> it what you are looking for, but I think that Trolls are generally thought
> of as being Big and Broad not Tall and Thin.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this formula. How do you get a 9foot troll
weighing 500lbs being equivalent to a 6foot human, weighing 150lbs from your
formula. If you're multiplying both values by two-thirds, then the 9 foot troll
would be equivalent to a 333lb, six foot tall human.

What is the "^" symbol in the 500*(2/3)^3 mean?

Thanks,

Xian.
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Trolls - How Big Are They
Date: Thu May 9 19:55:01 2002
On Thu, 9 May 2002 14:15:54 -0500
"Derek Hyde" <dhyde@*********.net> wrote:

> For further clarification on the location of said article it starts on
> page 28 of TSS #13, if you're going to argue my use of those rules then
> I'd highly suggest you read them first because after reading them they
> made great sense. Aside from that, thanks for playing and choosing to
> criticize published rule sets, but if everyone said they were broken and
> someone fixed it, why reinvent the wheel every time eh?

Well, some reinventing here could be interesting :). This article goes
from the principle that the _weights_ are wrong. One that takes the
alternate view (that the _heights_ are wrong) would be a good reference
for those who don't want to think too much about how their trolls' sizes
affect shadowrunning and normal life :).

--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Keith Duthie)
Subject: Trolls - How Big Are They
Date: Thu May 9 22:25:01 2002
On Thu, 9 May 2002, Christian Casavant wrote:

> What is the "^" symbol in the 500*(2/3)^3 mean?

He's raising two thirds to the third power. He's cubing it, in other
words. He could have written an intermediate step to the effect that
(2/3)^3=8/27, then multiplied that by 500.

Oh, and as far as the size of trolls being out, I'd reduce the height a
little on the basis that most games tend to ignore the majority of
consequences of the aforementioned height.

(How's that for a generalisation? ;-) )
--
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change ready.
http://users.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Trolls - How Big Are They
Date: Fri May 10 05:15:01 2002
>From: Christian Casavant <christian@********.org>
<snip>
> > Human. (9' * 2/3 = 6'. 500 lbs * (2/3)^3 = 148lbs) That is cool
<snip>
>I'm sorry, I don't understand this formula. How do you get a 9foot >troll
>weighing 500lbs being equivalent to a 6foot human, weighing 150lbs >from
>your
>formula. If you're multiplying both values by two-thirds, then the 9 >foot
>troll
>would be equivalent to a 333lb, six foot tall human.
>
>What is the "^" symbol in the 500*(2/3)^3 mean?

The "^" symbol means that the three after it should be superscript, in other
words two over three all cubed.
The reason you don't get the increase is that you're working simple ratios,
there's no problem with that if you're scaling something up, eg height x 1.5
therefore width x 1.5 and depth x 1.5 gets you the basic dimensions of a 9'
tall human with the proportions of a 6' tall human. the problem comes when
you try to work out how much they weigh.
Weight is based on mass (weight being the force gravity exerts on you) mass
is volume x density, assuming that the density remains the same between the
human and the troll the mass is directly related to the volume.
if you have a cube, one meter a side it's volume is 1 cubic meter or 1m^3
(see above for symbol explaination) if you increase it's height by half a
meter but leave the width and depth the same it's volume becomes 1.5m^3
(which is what you've done albeit in reverse). You have a taller object but
it isn't in proportion. If however you increase all your 1m^3 's prime
dimensions (height, width and depth) to 1.5m the volume goes up to 1.5^3 m^3
which is (1.5 x 1.5) x 1.5 which equals 3.375 (I wish I had a calculator
handy) so the volume is 3.375m^3; quite a difference. this is why the 1000
pound trolls came about.
Incedentally, I tend to look at the artwork and see trolls at about 7'6" in
a slouch (a permanent one by the looks of most) weighing in at around 700lb,
(I know the maths don't quite work out but call it the effects of
metagenetics).

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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Trolls - How Big Are They
Date: Fri May 10 05:35:00 2002
According to Christian Casavant, on Fri, 10 May 2002 the word on the street was...

> > Then they end up being thinner and more slightly built than Elves. A
> > 9' tall 500 lbs Troll would be proportionately equivalent to a 6' tall
> > 150 lbs Human. (9' * 2/3 = 6'. 500 lbs * (2/3)^3 = 148lbs)
>
> I'm sorry, I don't understand this formula. How do you get a 9foot troll
> weighing 500lbs being equivalent to a 6foot human, weighing 150lbs from
> your formula. If you're multiplying both values by two-thirds, then the 9
> foot troll would be equivalent to a 333lb, six foot tall human.
>
> What is the "^" symbol in the 500*(2/3)^3 mean?

It means "to the third power," or "cubed," and is the clue to your
question: the
volume of any object increases with the cube of its size -- if you double an
object's size, its volume goes up by a factor of 2^3 = 2 x 2 x 2 = 8. Since mass

is directly proportional to volume, mass goes up by the same amount.

In other words, if you reduce a troll's height by 2/3rds, then his or her body
weight will decrease by (2/3)^3 = 2/3 x 2/3 x 2/3 = 0.296 and a bunch more
digits.

--
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Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Trolls - How Big Are They
Date: Fri May 10 06:25:01 2002
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Hash: SHA1


On 09-May-02 Bira wrote:
>
> Well, some reinventing here could be interesting :). This article
> goes
> from the principle that the _weights_ are wrong. One that takes the
> alternate view (that the _heights_ are wrong) would be a good
> reference
> for those who don't want to think too much about how their trolls'
> sizes
> affect shadowrunning and normal life :).

Yea, but IMO those things are the *fun* in playing a Troll (or better
GM one). Both GM and player should talk about the results of being a
Troll and play it out, could be fun!

- Burning Avatar

----------------------------------
Ona galad a naur i lumbulo

PGP User ID: 0x825CE007

BA's data haven
http://home.t-online.de/home/tobias.d/srmain.htm

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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Trolls - How Big Are They
Date: Fri May 10 17:50:05 2002
On Fri, 10 May 2002 12:22:57 +0200 (CEST)
Tobias.D@********.de wrote:

> Yea, but IMO those things are the *fun* in playing a Troll (or better
> GM one). Both GM and player should talk about the results of being a
> Troll and play it out, could be fun!
>
> - Burning Avatar

I agree that it can be lots of fun, but I also _like_ alternate views :).

--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Alex Case)
Subject: Trolls - How Big Are They
Date: Fri May 10 20:20:02 2002
From: Christian Casavant <christian@********.org>
>What is the "^" symbol in the 500*(2/3)^3 mean?

It means that the number after it is an exponent.

It is written that it is better to burn a single city than to curse the
darkness"
-From "The Furies" By Roger Zelazny

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