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Message no. 1
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:30:52 -0500
In the thread discussion non-elven nations, it was brought up the lack of
intelligent trolls to lead the nations. I was wondering if anyone has any
theories about why trolls are dumb in SR. If I remember correctly, in ED
trolls are about as smart as anyone else. I have heard two different
theories advanced to explain their drop in IQ. One: the elves had
actually made the VITAS plague to kill of the genetically intelligent
trolls (don't ask me why). Two: Trolls intelligence will actually
increase as the magic level increases (again, don't ask me why). Any
other ideas or critism on these two?
Message no. 2
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 14:46:47 -0800
At 17:30 4/1/97 -0500, Midn Daniel O Fredrikson wrote:
>In the thread discussion non-elven nations, it was brought up the lack of
>intelligent trolls to lead the nations. I was wondering if anyone has any
>theories about why trolls are dumb in SR. If I remember correctly, in ED
>trolls are about as smart as anyone else. I have heard two different
>theories advanced to explain their drop in IQ. One: the elves had
>actually made the VITAS plague to kill of the genetically intelligent
>trolls (don't ask me why). Two: Trolls intelligence will actually
>increase as the magic level increases (again, don't ask me why). Any
>other ideas or critism on these two?

ED Trolls also have a very consistent pair of horns that they're quite
proud of; SR Trolls grow things in a much more haphazard way.

I'd rather not say "VITAS is a Troll-dumbing-down plague invented by
immortal elves" because that inflates them into bogeymen. I'd much
rather keep the immortal elves as major players behind the scenes who are
neck and neck with other forces in the world, rather than making them into
the folks who are *running* everything behind the scenes.

It may be that there are Trollish "spike babies" being born in SR now
who end up with horns and normal intelligence. Alternatively, genetic
drift may have screwed over the Trolls during the down cycle. ("Well,
it turns out that *this* mutation of the dermal armor gene that causes
Trolls to be thick-headed and thus smaller-brained codes (during the down
cycle) for a protein that would've substantially increased your resistance
against influenza, which means that the folks with the mutated Troll gene
severely outcompeted the ones who didn't have one...")

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
Message no. 3
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:42:32 -0500
Midn Daniel O Fredrikson enlightened us with these words of wisdom:
>In the thread discussion non-elven nations, it was brought up the lack of
>intelligent trolls to lead the nations. I was wondering if anyone has any
>theories about why trolls are dumb in SR. If I remember correctly, in ED
>trolls are about as smart as anyone else. I have heard two different
>theories advanced to explain their drop in IQ. One: the elves had
>actually made the VITAS plague to kill of the genetically intelligent
>trolls (don't ask me why). Two: Trolls intelligence will actually
>increase as the magic level increases (again, don't ask me why). Any
>other ideas or critism on these two?

1) The all-mighty elves managed to create the deadliest virus known to Man
kind, AND tailored it to wipe out INTELLIGENT trolls. Yeah, sure.

2) Trolls are dumb(er) for Game Balance(tm) to make up for their strength.
Duh. :) Game wise, the theory would be that any species that evolved that
strong wouldn't have to be as intellectual. People tend to over do it too,
the average troll isn't dumb, just poor and uneducated. Even with a lower
Intelligence score, you don't have to make them morons.

(P.S., I loved Changeling.)

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 4
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:06:54 -0800
At 18:42 4/1/97 -0500, you wrote:
>2) Trolls are dumb(er) for Game Balance(tm) to make up for their strength.
>Duh. :) Game wise, the theory would be that any species that evolved that
>strong wouldn't have to be as intellectual. People tend to over do it too,
>the average troll isn't dumb, just poor and uneducated. Even with a lower
>Intelligence score, you don't have to make them morons.

Well, given that "moron" (IIRC) simply means "IQ < 90", I'm afraid
the
"average" troll (Int 1, which is what you get if you apply Troll diffs to
pedestrian stats of straight 3's) isn't very bright... but you can always
have Int 1 Trolls who aren't lacking at all in common sense. (Brumby,
the Troll Shadowrunner Philospher from Blackjack's page, is great! I
avoided seeing Forrest Gump, but that might provide more arguments for
those inclined to pursue the topic...)

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
Message no. 5
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:51:48 +0500
On 1 Apr 97 at 18:42, Brett Borger wrote:

> poor and uneducated. Even with a lower Intelligence score, you
> don't have to make them morons.

Poor and uneducated, yes, usually. Low intelligence does not equal
stupid or low I.Q. I really wish FASA would change the name of that
attribute to Perception, because that is really what it represents.
How intelligent a person is relflected in their skills.

> (P.S., I loved Changeling.)

As did I. Good book.

#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
# DREKHEAD - drekhead@***.net, drekhead@***.com - Tim Kerby #
#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
# --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html --- #
#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
It's time's like this I wish I were a psycopath.
-Dilbert
Message no. 6
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 03:51:42 +0100
In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.970401172602.18569A-100000@*****>, Midn Daniel
O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL> writes
>In the thread discussion non-elven nations, it was brought up the lack of
>intelligent trolls to lead the nations. I was wondering if anyone has any
>theories about why trolls are dumb in SR. If I remember correctly, in ED
>trolls are about as smart as anyone else. I have heard two different
>theories advanced to explain their drop in IQ. One: the elves had
>actually made the VITAS plague to kill of the genetically intelligent
>trolls (don't ask me why). Two: Trolls intelligence will actually
>increase as the magic level increases (again, don't ask me why). Any
>other ideas or critism on these two?


My personal take on it is that Trolls and Orks are not a bunch of numb-
nuts. They average intelligence equal to and greater than human
intelligence, which means they are intelligent, either that, or we're
all gonna have to label the humans as morons as well.

I would however label Orks and Trolls as less well educated. They
mature faster than humans, which leaves them with the difficult
situation of existing in a school environment as an adult. Poor
education does not equate to stupidity. They may possibly suffer from
not being particularly wise about things, but this is dealt with in the
poor education.

As far as I'm concerned, they're as intelligent as the human in the
penthouse, just less fortunate.

I really hate the way they get generically labelled as thick skulled
dimwits who's only purpose in life is to scratch, fart and kill things.


--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Message no. 7
From: Craig J Wilhelm <nyccraig@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:19:50 EST
On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 03:51:42 +0100 Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
writes:

>My personal take on it is that Trolls and Orks are not a bunch of
>numb-nuts. They average intelligence equal to and greater than human
>intelligence, which means they are intelligent, either that, or we're
>all gonna have to label the humans as morons as well.

How do you get that Orks and Trolls intelligence averages equal to or
greater
than a humans? Orks take a -1 to intelligence, and Trolls are lobotomized
with a -2. If we're talking averages, Orks come to 2-3, and Trolls: 1-2.
Humans average 3-4.

However, Humans have the capacity for equal stupidity. On the other
hand, Orks and Trolls _are_ more prone to stupidity than the average
Human, which makes them very unfortunate indeed...

>I would however label Orks and Trolls as less well educated. They
>mature faster than humans, which leaves them with the difficult
>situation of existing in a school environment as an adult. Poor
>education does not equate to stupidity. They may possibly suffer from
>not being particularly wise about things, but this is dealt with in
>the poor education.

I will remove the politically correct padding. Poor education
leads, more often than not, to ignorance.
But this is a good area to explore with a Troll or Ork PC via
role-playing.

>As far as I'm concerned, they're as intelligent as the human in the
>penthouse, just less fortunate.

I cannot agree less, accept on the unfortunate part. But, not all Orks
and Trolls are born to unfortunate circumstances. However many, I may
even say the (slim) majority, are.

>I really hate the way they get generically labelled as thick skulled
>dimwits who's only purpose in life is to scratch, fart and kill
>things.

That's the way things go...

Craig Wilhelm

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The road to hell has no speed limit.
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Message no. 8
From: TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 01:20:54 -0500
Avenger wrote:
> They average intelligence equal to and greater than human
> intelligence, which means they are intelligent, either that, or we're
> all gonna have to label the humans as morons as well.

How do you rationalize that? Trolls have -2 to thier INTELLIGENCE,
which means that they, on average will only have a 1 where humans will have a
3. The higher number gives me the impression that they are more intelligent.
Yes, a very smart Troll can be more intelligent than the average human, but
this is far from the norm. The most important thing to remember is that the
racial mods would be applied after numbers are allocated, which in turn says
that an average 3 Int. becomes a 1 Int.

> I would however label Orks and Trolls as less well educated. They
> mature faster than humans, which leaves them with the difficult
> situation of existing in a school environment as an adult. Poor
> education does not equate to stupidity. They may possibly suffer from
> not being particularly wise about things, but this is dealt with in the
> poor education.

Yes they are less fortunate, but that doesn't mean they are just as
bright. Intelligence is a cumulation of things like natural apptitude,
comprehension, retention, perception, among others. People often equate
intelligence with enculturation, and education. This isn't actually correct,
but it is one of the only ways it can be measured. It is also possible to learn
things outside of school, which means that the orks and trolls that aren't in
school would still be able to learn things, so you can't blame the lack of
intelligence on the lack of formal education. Most shadowrunners don't get a
formall education, but they are still intelligent. I'd like to know what you
are talking about with your comment about them not being wise about things
being dealt with in the poor education. I may be misreading this but it seems
like you are implying something that isn't written hear.

-The Immortal Mental
Message no. 9
From: Mark McLaughlin <mmclaugh@*******.EENG.DCU.IE>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:39:17 -0800
Midn Daniel O Fredrikson wrote:
>
> In the thread discussion non-elven nations, it was brought up the lack of
> intelligent trolls to lead the nations. I was wondering if anyone has any
> theories about why trolls are dumb in SR...

Basicly Trolls are dumb to create "balance".. Their already
indestructable what more do you want! As far as a game explanation
goes.. `em.. well maybe its not the Trolls that are dumb, its just
everybody else thats intelligent! Their just another race with different
strengths and weaknesses, I mean its like asking why dwarves are small
or elves big and charasmatic. Its in the genes man!!

Mark.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Mark (Merlin) McLaughlin - Personal Email: merlin@********.dcu.ie
RPG page: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4194/frame.html
Icon Email: icon2_97@*******.com Other: mmclaugh@******.eeng.dcu.ie
Icon Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~icon2/
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
Aleister Crowley (1875-1947)
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Message no. 10
From: William Monroe Ashe <wma6617@******.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:59:38 -0600
I'll jump in on this one;

My theory is that orks and trolls being the "youngest" of the races have
a narrower gene pool to work with. I mean that there are some brilliant
ones and some really stupid ones, but mostly stupid.

But, now if you look at the Shadowrun Companion, the diversity for
orks and trolls is(are) the largest (i.e. fomor's, giants ...) Some of
these new variants (as I recall) have less of an intelligence penalty.

My opinion is that as the sixth world progresses, natural selection will
favor the more intelligent. I don't care how strong you are, if you're
really stupid you're going to get whacked. Either by a gun, or just
walking out into traffic and getting hit by a bus.



Well that's my theory ... that and $1 will get me a coffee


Regards


Bill
Message no. 11
From: Joachim H A Buchert <avo_jb@**.HELSINKI.FI>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:55:23 +0300
> >theories advanced to explain their drop in IQ. One: the elves had
> >actually made the VITAS plague to kill of the genetically intelligent
> >trolls (don't ask me why). Two: Trolls intelligence will actually
> >increase as the magic level increases (again, don't ask me why). Any
> >other ideas or critism on these two?

One: Oh, no, not this one again! I asked Tom Dowd way back then if VITAS
had been designed to kill T'skrangs' and such and his reply was mostly
negative, though he said we could never be sure. But from the way the
question humored him, I'd say that's not the case.

And the SR world is better for it. :)

Two: Possible, but a somewhat lame explanation because nothing justifies
the claim.

> ED Trolls also have a very consistent pair of horns that they're quite
> proud of; SR Trolls grow things in a much more haphazard way.

SRII p38:

"Some investigators believe that individuals or small communities of this
subspecies are in fact, other species entirely."

This because of their varied looks. I'd say the new meta-types sort of
support this as well.

So, I would be inclined to say that the trolls in the Barsaive region
indeed have those consistent horns. Other regions may have other specialties.

Remember also, that the SR attribute of intelligence is not just pure IQ.
It is perception (and trolls in ED suffer a -1 to that), common sense (and
I'd say the trolls are a bit slow, but not outright stupid) and such factors.

- J -
Message no. 12
From: --Odd-- <mikes@*****.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:03:45 +0200
|
| My theory is that orks and trolls being the "youngest" of the races have
| a narrower gene pool to work with. I mean that there are some brilliant
| ones and some really stupid ones, but mostly stupid.

Unfortunately as mentioned before, it doesn't matter how clever (IQ etc.)
you are, without education that brilliance is going to die, especially with
stereotype perception. Anyway, my guess would be that initially is would be
the more naturally cunning individuals that would survive the longest
(relatively speaking). Anyway as to the limited gene pool theory, most of
the genes are essentially 'human' in nature, it was only the magic that
trigger certain other gene code to become effective i.e.... The genes where
recessive except in a magical environment, whence they became active.

--Odd--

-We live the shadows where your fears reside. At the cost of our blood,
sweat, tears and ultimately lives, we contain those which worry you; with
lead, magic, guile and strength so that you can sleep easily. Sleep well,
for we never do, there are always shadows somewhere in the world....-
Message no. 13
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:27:59 +1000
> My theory is that orks and trolls being the "youngest" of the races have
> a narrower gene pool to work with. I mean that there are some brilliant
> ones and some really stupid ones, but mostly stupid.
>

You'd make a good eugenicist if you believe that. They're descended from
humanity and have the same number of chromosomes and the same number of
bases in their genetic structure..... can't see any basis for a smaller
gene pool.

> But, now if you look at the Shadowrun Companion, the diversity for
> orks and trolls is(are) the largest (i.e. fomor's, giants ...) Some of
> these new variants (as I recall) have less of an intelligence penalty.
>
I'd say that most of the other newer races have less penalties because the
folks at FASA got sick an tired of people bitching that Orks and Trolls
are impossible to play because of the penalties..

A general decrease (Mental Attribute) -4 spell will take out nearly any
Ork or troll you care to name.

> My opinion is that as the sixth world progresses, natural selection will
> favor the more intelligent. I don't care how strong you are, if you're
> really stupid you're going to get whacked. Either by a gun, or just
> walking out into traffic and getting hit by a bus.
>
Very true, but the -ive to the stats appears to be congenital for
whatever reason.

Bleach
Message no. 14
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:29:40 +1000
> | My theory is that orks and trolls being the "youngest" of the races have
> | a narrower gene pool to work with. I mean that there are some brilliant
> | ones and some really stupid ones, but mostly stupid.
>
> Unfortunately as mentioned before, it doesn't matter how clever (IQ etc.)
> you are, without education that brilliance is going to die, especially with
> stereotype perception.

By the time an Ork is finished high school education, he's past the age
where he should be starting a family. Yay; Joy.
Message no. 15
From: Grendel <grendel@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 23:18:54 -0500
At 12:27 97-04-03 +1000, you wrote:
>> My theory is that orks and trolls being the "youngest" of the races
have
>> a narrower gene pool to work with. I mean that there are some brilliant
>> ones and some really stupid ones, but mostly stupid.
>>
Then Martin E. wrote:
>You'd make a good eugenicist if you believe that. They're descended from
>humanity and have the same number of chromosomes and the same number of
>bases in their genetic structure..... can't see any basis for a smaller
>gene pool.


Well, knowing a little bit of genetics, i dont agree. It's true, in a
certain way that trolls and orks have a narrower gene pool. Yes they have
about the same genes as humans, but what makes them different? Different
genes. Maybe not major ones but the ones about the expression of the form of
the body. If not, what are making them different? Not only the environment
because all people from the same environment would be the same. We're stuck
with different genes. Only one difference in chromosome is making a
difference. We have one pair of chromosome less than the chimpanze and we
are 98,3% similar in our DNA. And do they look like us? Not really. SO, yes,
there's different genes for trolls and orks, different from humans? Yes,
that explain why they are SO huge.

For the intelligence, i have a theory. Maybe these different genes are
somewhat blocking the development of intelligence as we know it. Ok, I know,
intelligence is not due entirely to the genes BUT, they play a role. The
environment do the rest and that's what we call intelligence. So, in these
cases, if the genes for the development of the body are acting against the
genes involved with intelligence, that could explain the lower intelligence.
But on the other hand, it's true that low intelligence does mean being dumb.
There's education too that play a role. So, maybe we're speaking dominant
genes for the expression of the body against the recessive genes for the
intelligence. That leaves us with dumb and intelligent trolls and orks. In
that case, we have a 3:1 ratio of dumb/intelligent trolls and orks. It's not
better but it's a start.


>> My opinion is that as the sixth world progresses, natural selection will
>> favor the more intelligent. I don't care how strong you are, if you're
>> really stupid you're going to get whacked. Either by a gun, or just
>> walking out into traffic and getting hit by a bus.

Yes, with natural selection there will be more intelligent trolls/orks, but
it's only the average of the IQ that will rise. They're will still be dumb
trolls/ork, but as time goes by, the mean will rise and the people will be
less dumb. And as time goes by, the dumb people will be less dumber than
their ancestor.

____________________________________________________________________________
________
Grendel Khan

Sam:"So where'd you park the car, Max?"
Max:"I don't know. I couldn't see over the wheel."
Sam:"That's okay. I think I can smell it."
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 10:44:38 +0100
William Monroe Ashe said on 7:59/ 2 Apr 97...

> My theory is that orks and trolls being the "youngest" of the races have
> a narrower gene pool to work with. I mean that there are some brilliant
> ones and some really stupid ones, but mostly stupid.

From the way I always understood it, all the metahumans are descendants of
people who have been carrying those metahuman genes for millennia, but
because of the low mana level, the genes didn't actually do anything.
However, when 2011 rolls by, the mana level becomes high enough for the
dwarf and elf genes to "activate;" in 2021 the same thing happens to the
ork and troll genes, the difference being that those can actually rebuild
a body that has been mature for years, whereas dwarf and elf genes have to
have a clean slate, as it were.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Never a victim," the role-model said.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:11:17 +0100
MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 12:29/ 3 Apr 97...

> By the time an Ork is finished high school education, he's past the age
> where he should be starting a family. Yay; Joy.

Today on Gerry Spronger: "I only became a parent /after/ high school!"

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Never a victim," the role-model said.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 18
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 10:57:20 -0500
> Yes they are less fortunate, but that doesn't mean they are just as
>bright. Intelligence is a cumulation of things like natural apptitude,
>comprehension, retention, perception, among others. People often equate
>intelligence with enculturation, and education. This isn't actually correct,
>but it is one of the only ways it can be measured. It is also possible to learn
>things outside of school, which means that the orks and trolls that aren't in
>school would still be able to learn things, so you can't blame the lack of
>intelligence on the lack of formal education. Most shadowrunners don't get a
>formall education, but they are still intelligent. I'd like to know what you
>are talking about with your comment about them not being wise about things
>being dealt with in the poor education. I may be misreading this but it seems
>like you are implying something that isn't written hear.

I am not saying that trolls are smarter, only that the smart ones are
ignored. And By lack of education, I also include exposure. Shadowrunners
may not have formal education (although I would expect that most successful
ones had some) but they get out of the ghetto and experience the wide
variety of things (etiquette, materials, concepts, etc) that are encessary
to know and react to. If you drop your average corp exec in ghetto, he
dies. Ditto with the trolls and orks outside the ghettos. (Gee, now _I'm_
stereotyping. :) Apply only to the relevent groups please) Successful
shadowrunners need to live in both environments.

Read Lucifer Deck, and see how Pita (and intelligent child) reacts at first
to Magic and tech beyon dher experience (and she seemed pretty comfortable
with tech). I thought it did a good job of showing how an intelligent
person could be considered dumb.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 19
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:24:52 -0500
>>> My theory is that orks and trolls being the "youngest" of the races
have
>>> a narrower gene pool to work with. I mean that there are some brilliant
>>> ones and some really stupid ones, but mostly stupid.
...
>>You'd make a good eugenicist if you believe that. They're descended from
>>humanity and have the same number of chromosomes and the same number of
>>bases in their genetic structure..... can't see any basis for a smaller
>>gene pool.
...
>Well, knowing a little bit of genetics, i dont agree. It's true, in a
...
>the body. If not, what are making them different? Not only the environment
>because all people from the same environment would be the same. We're stuck
>with different genes. Only one difference in chromosome is making a
>difference. We have one pair of chromosome less than the chimpanze and we
>are 98,3% similar in our DNA. And do they look like us? Not really. SO, yes,
>there's different genes for trolls and orks, different from humans? Yes,
>that explain why they are SO huge.

The problem being that a smaller gene pool results in high/low extremes in
intelligence only after inbreeding....and they haven't been around enough to
explain that. Now if you want to say that the first to goblinize were the
"true" bloodlines, and thus HAD inbreed, you might get away with it
(doubtful, as Goblinization was pretty non-selective). Besides, that didn't
seem to be your point.

Also, Percentage comparisons of DNA don't hold up since we don't USE 90% of
our DNA.

But the main point is that gene pool size only plays a part after they've
had time affect the progeny.....and those affects can take up to 500 years
to affect the majority of descendants. (Look at the royal families in
Europe....the average person is still healthy, despite all the inbreeding.)

>For the intelligence, i have a theory. Maybe these different genes are
>somewhat blocking the development of intelligence as we know it. Ok, I know,
>intelligence is not due entirely to the genes BUT, they play a role. The
>environment do the rest and that's what we call intelligence. So, in these
>cases, if the genes for the development of the body are acting against the
>genes involved with intelligence, that could explain the lower intelligence.
>But on the other hand, it's true that low intelligence does mean being dumb.
>There's education too that play a role. So, maybe we're speaking dominant
>genes for the expression of the body against the recessive genes for the
>intelligence. That leaves us with dumb and intelligent trolls and orks. In
>that case, we have a 3:1 ratio of dumb/intelligent trolls and orks. It's not
>better but it's a start.

Do-able theory. I liked how Changeling described how he felt about
it....like a fog covered his brain and he had to push the thoughts
through....so he COULD think complex lines of thought, it just took more
effort. Perhaps a protein imbalance in the brain? This could lead to some
interesting run ideas....Scientist A develops a (virus/drug/nanite/bioware)
that drastically increases troll/ork thought abilities. (Perhaps the
presence of the gene producing a binding protein could be modified to
produce a protein that INCREASED complex thought abilities....and it
couldn't work on humans since they lack (or it is inactive) the gene
producing that protein.) Naturally lots of people want it....Corps want
think tanks, Humanis wants it trashed....perhaps the scientist has strong
racial views one way or another....Troll supremicist groups....

And of course, just for fun, (and Game Balance(tm)) it turns out that the
drug(or whatever) has the added effect of (stroke/cancer/decreased life
expectancy/addiction/requiring larger doses over time to be effective....


Wow. I like it.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 20
From: Shawn Baumgartner <deosyne@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:31:32 PST
>Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:30:52 -0500
>From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson
<m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>

>
>In the thread discussion non-elven nations, it was
brought up the lack of
>intelligent trolls to lead the nations. I was
wondering if anyone has any
>theories about why trolls are dumb in SR. If I
remember correctly, in ED
>trolls are about as smart as anyone else. I have
heard two different
>theories advanced to explain their drop in IQ. One:
the elves had
>actually made the VITAS plague to kill of the
genetically intelligent
>trolls (don't ask me why). Two: Trolls
intelligence will actually
>increase as the magic level increases (again, don't
ask me why). Any
>other ideas or critism on these two?
>

IIRC, according to the main rulebook (mines SR1; may
have changed) the reduction in intellect was due to
the trauma of goblinization. Of course they are a
different race, so it may be a racial trait. I
personally don't like racial maxes as an absolute. I
have a house rule that allows characters a max of 1.5
the rulebook max, but the Karma cost is tripled
between the book max and the absolute. Their are
always going to be Einsteins or Carl Lewis' in the
world, so I figure if a troll studies and works hard
(like in Changeling), he could be a genius as well.
As for nations, I don't think intelligence would be a
major factor, as solidarity and a sense of being a
member of a greater whole (Freud, eat your heart out
:)) would be more important. 'Course, maybe I'm just
a trog waitin' to change :]

Shawn
Trollz dek too! (Just a little slower)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Out of the gutter and into your mailer!

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Message no. 21
From: Craig J Wilhelm <nyccraig@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 05:45:46 EST
<SNIP>
>Do-able theory. I liked how Changeling described how he felt about
>it....like a fog covered his brain and he had to push the thoughts
>through....so he COULD think complex lines of thought, it just took
>more effort. Perhaps a protein imbalance in the brain? This could lead
to
>some interesting run ideas....Scientist A develops a
>(virus/drug/nanite/bioware) that drastically increases troll/ork thought
abilities.
(Perhaps the presence of the gene producing a binding protein could be
modified to
>produce a protein that INCREASED complex thought abilities....and it
>couldn't work on humans since they lack (or it is inactive) the gene
>producing that protein.) Naturally lots of people want it....Corps
>want think tanks, Humanis wants it trashed....perhaps the scientist has
>strong racial views one way or another....Troll supremicist groups....
>
>And of course, just for fun, (and Game Balance(tm)) it turns out that
>the drug(or whatever) has the added effect of (stroke/cancer/decreased
>life expectancy/addiction/requiring larger doses over time to be
>effective....

>Wow. I like it.

Me too! Thanks!

Craig Wilhelm
Message no. 22
From: Brett Borger <SwiftOne@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Troll's intelligence or lack thereof
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 17:30:18 -0500
>>And of course, just for fun, (and Game Balance(tm)) it turns out that
>>the drug(or whatever) has the added effect of (stroke/cancer/decreased
>>life expectancy/addiction/requiring larger doses over time to be
>>effective....
>
>>Wow. I like it.
>
>Me too! Thanks!

Actually, I liked it so much, I'm working on a novel concept o submit to
FASA. I hope that posting the idea here didn't kill my chances. :) Jak
gave me enough hope to try this.

(Jak, if FASA ignores me for two years, the Mafia hit squad will be at your
doorstep. :) )

(Say, Jak.....since you have the inside line to FASA, think you could nudge
them a little on some of these hanging *cough*Grounding?*cough* issues? :) )

-=SwiftOne=-

Further Reading

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Thwap!