Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:08:59 +1000
After getting a brief glimpse into the Cannon Companion, I notice that
trolls have more bonuses in combat situations, above the strength, reach
etc. that they aready had. I don't have a problem with that, its sensible. I
am not going into individual cases or their faults/good stuff or anything
here, my bandwidth is already choking with hundreds of these posts.
What I am thinking, is that since trolls are so beneficial to the combat
oriented character, I will push their social disadvantages even harder in my
games. Here are some ideas to deter people from having a whole team of
trolls.

People are scared of trolls. They don't look human at all, they are huge and
have horns and tusks. They suffer from discrimination based not on hatred
but fear. Neighbourhoods will try to keep trolls out, public venues like
cinemas will not let trolls in because the places are not equipped to take
such tall, wide people and there would be no motivation to change their
setup

Trolls are too big for society. The average small car will not accomodate,
only the largest bikes could stand their weight and size. Everything from
coffee mugs, keyboards and kitchen appliances to tools, clothes and houses
are too small or fragile for a troll to use. Food does not come in troll
size servings. Troll size things would cost a LOT more than regular.

People know trolls aren't as bright, and will tend to treat them like
idiots, even the smart trolls. As GM, spending the game talking in character
loudly and slowly every time the troll is addressed will infuriate player
and character alike.

I see the troll socially as a cross between a black American mid last
century and a morbidly obese or giant person. Grind in the social
disadvantages. The meet is in a back room down a narrow corridor. The troll
has to crawl sideways on one arm and leg because the roof is too low as
well, then the big oaf accidentally puts his elbow through the wall and has
to pay for repairs. Double charge the troll for everything, including
lifestyle, and ban them from buying middle or high lifestyle because nobody
will let them into the good neighbourhoods. Just plain don't let them into
places, and if they raise a fuss, make the person on the door ring the Star
instantly since everyone knows how dangerous trolls are. Any excuse can be
used to keep them out without them being sued for prejudice, such as nulling
insurance coverage, fire escape problems for troll size individuals, or
simply reserving the right to refuse admittance to suspected troublemakers.
A simple fact is that there are not many trolls around, so there is no
impetus to change things to suit them as well.
What do you all think? Any other ideas? Am I being too harsh?
Message no. 2
From: Cybertroll cybertroll@******.crosswinds.net
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:54:17 +0300
Simon Fuller wrote:

BIG SNIP
> A simple fact is that there are not many trolls around, so there is no
> impetus to change things to suit them as well.
> What do you all think? Any other ideas? Am I being too harsh?

Nope. It's the plain truth and as a Troll character I know it.
I think u described very well the life of a Troll, however u missed one
thing. Because of that fear and because of Trolls' huge size and
strength, people would think it a few more times before they start
making jokes on one. It's like going to a fat wrestler and telling him:"
Oh Boy you are FAT!"

Cybertroll

--
E-Mail : cybertroll@********.gr / cybertroll@********.org
ICQ# : 7483400 but u have to beg to get my authorization!! :-)))
Homepage: http://www.crosswinds.net/~cybertroll - WOA Photo Album
>=======<The official Blind Guardian IRC channel>===========<
Do u really want to talk with me?? Come to #tavern in Othernet!
http://tavern.home.pages.de/ (#tavern's homepage made by Soth)
>=======<o--t--h--e--r--OtherNET.Org--n--e--t--!>===========<
Server: irc.othernet.org on port 6667
http://www.othernet.org - http://www.othernet.org/servers
IRCop on SanJose.CA.US.Othernet.org
Channel Services (X) Administrator
Nick Services (NS) Administrator
Message no. 3
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:07:07 -0500
From: Simon Fuller
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 3:09 AM

> What I am thinking, is that since trolls are so beneficial to the
> combat oriented character, I will push their social disadvantages
> even harder in my games. Here are some ideas to deter people from
> having a whole team of trolls.

In my experience, such a thing isn't necessary; people don't tend to play
trolls, and players who twink out with trolls don't tend to last long. In
the past two years (and after having nearly 30 people and about 40 PCs cycle
through my group since I started it), I've had exactly three troll PCs. Two
of them have died horrible deaths (one had a concussion grenade go off
literally in his lap, and another one tried to fly out of a fourth-story
window with no actual means of support), and the third is doing well because
the guy playing him isn't a twink.

But as for getting a whole team of trolls...not likely. I've never seen it
in the nearly eleven years I've been playing SR, and I don't consider it a
big problem. If you see a problem with a whole team of trolls forming,
you've either got a quality control problem or your local players are a lot
different than those we've got here. Or both.

OTOH, it does sound like a grand one-off game or limited-duration
campaign...I might have to fiddle with this a bit....

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 4
From: Yiannakos Yiannako@*******.edu
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:29:42 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: "Simon Fuller" <sfuller@******.com.au>

<SNIP Life sucks for Trolls>

> What do you all think? Any other ideas? Am I being too harsh?

I don't think so. It all really depends on your players. If you have a
problem with your players making gross super-twink uber death Trolls all the
time, then by all means, make normal everyday
pay-the-phone-bill-pick-up-milk-on-the-way-home life difficult for them.
But, if your players are good about making normal, reasonable, balanced
Trolls, maybe you want to go a little easier on them. But I think the
penalties should still be there, at least to a degree.

---Dave ('s not here man)
Message no. 5
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:23:55 -0500
:A simple fact is that there are not many trolls around, so there is no
:impetus to change things to suit them as well.

1% is not a trivial number. There's fewer than that many people in
wheelchairs, but we have the ADA, which mandates all new construction be
wheelchair acessable. Trolls (at least the onesa with SINs) still vote, and
can influence the voting of others. They are a big enough market segement
to attact nich companies, and that major brands would at least offer a
"troll version" of many goods.
OTOH, more than 10% of the population is left handed, and try finding a
left handed can opener at a grocery market... Even eleves and orcs might
face some trouble finding clothes.

:What do you all think? Any other ideas? Am I being too harsh?


A bit to harsh, I think. Since trolls apeared equally in all groups, I
think that they would have some representation in all matters. Many of the
listed probelems were quite valid, but applying them withs such extreme
prejudice is a bit much. Some trolls don't wish to face those obstacles, so
they move out to the country and live the rural lifestyle, probably in homes
they build themseleves near other trolls- various Shadowrun books as much as
say this. But those who do live in cities would find ways to overcome or
avoid those obstacles, I think.
I do think the governement wouldat least try to elimiate institionalized
descrimination against metahumans of all types, which would mean that
proucts, transportation, businees locations, and housing suitable to them
would be fairly widely available. Neither Canada nor America allows broad
based decrimination in any of those areas, or they at least allow the
targets of such descrimination to sue for damages and forced remediation of
the situation- I don't see why this would change in 60 years.

Mongoose

_____________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Message no. 6
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:29:32 -0500
Simon Fuller said:

:After getting a brief glimpse into the Cannon Companion, I notice that
:trolls have more bonuses in combat situations, above the strength, reach
:etc. that they aready had.

BTW, as something faily irrelevant to the entire post- what are those
new advantages? Maybe I missed a bit, but the ability to use heavy weapons
without a tripod or gyroharness is the only one I can think of, and its more
than offset by the penalties for using weapons that are not adpated to troll
use.

Mongoose

_____________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Message no. 7
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:52:55 -0500
Paric Goodman said:
:But as for getting a whole team of trolls...not likely. I've never seen it
:in the nearly eleven years I've been playing SR, and I don't consider it a
:big problem. If you see a problem with a whole team of trolls forming,
:you've either got a quality control problem or your local players are a lot
:different than those we've got here. Or both.

My experience is the same. One basic concern is, if a troll goes down
in a fight (which can happen, quite easily), nobody else is strong enough to
carry them to safety. In a whole team of trolls, that wouldn't be a
problem, but I've also never seen that done. Usually most folks want to
play humans or elves, in my experience.

Mongoose

_____________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Message no. 8
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:53:21 -0400 (EDT)
"Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*********.com> writes:
> BTW, as something faily irrelevant to the entire post- what are those
> new advantages?

The one I can think of offhand is the ability to wield a
two-handed weapon one-handed at +1TN instead of +2TN... IMHO, it's
not a huge benefit unless one limb has been disabled, as IIRC it
doesn't help them in the two-weapon rules. I *guess* it could be
useful for using a reach 2 weapon to defend while shooting with your
primary hand, but even at only +1TN, you're not really better off than
just using a reach 1 weapon... I can't think of anything that seemed
particularly significant being added to trolls, as they usually want a
tripod/gyromount for heavy weapons anyways due to recoil. (the assault
cannon is an exception)
Oh, as a side note to the irrelevant tangent to the post: The
Strength modifiers for recoil got toned down. I think Str 6-11 only
gets you 1 point of recoil comp now, and it caps at 3 points of recoil
comp. yay!

Mark
Message no. 9
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:01:43 EDT
In a message dated 4/12/00 3:38:38 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

>
> My experience is the same. One basic concern is, if a troll goes down
> in a fight (which can happen, quite easily), nobody else is strong enough
to
> carry them to safety. In a whole team of trolls, that wouldn't be a
> problem, but I've also never seen that done. Usually most folks want to
> play humans or elves, in my experience.

Actually, we've been discovering the one person who is almost, I said
*almost*, always capable of carrying the troll is the magician, with
Levitate. In fact, in one game, the troll forked over the cash/nuyen for the
sustaining foci of the levitate just for such.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 10
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:34:54 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark A Shieh <SHODAN+@***.EDU>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, April 13, 2000 6:55 AM
Subject: Re: Trolls Life


>"Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*********.com> writes:
>> BTW, as something faily irrelevant to the entire post- what are those
>> new advantages?
>
> The one I can think of offhand is the ability to wield a
>two-handed weapon one-handed at +1TN instead of +2TN... IMHO, it's
>not a huge benefit unless one limb has been disabled, as IIRC it
>doesn't help them in the two-weapon rules. I *guess* it could be
>useful for using a reach 2 weapon to defend while shooting with your
>primary hand, but even at only +1TN, you're not really better off than
>just using a reach 1 weapon... I can't think of anything that seemed
>particularly significant being added to trolls, as they usually want a
>tripod/gyromount for heavy weapons anyways due to recoil. (the assault
>cannon is an exception)
> Oh, as a side note to the irrelevant tangent to the post: The
>Strength modifiers for recoil got toned down. I think Str 6-11 only
>gets you 1 point of recoil comp now, and it caps at 3 points of recoil
>comp. yay!
>
>Mark


Yeah thats basically it, as well as being able to use the larger weapons
with less negatives. I didn't mean to imply that trolls are now supermen,
its just that seeing their minor bonuses got me thinking. I consider their
bonuses fair, but I really don't want another Cannon Companion thread :)
Message no. 11
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:41:58 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Cybertroll <cybertroll@******.crosswinds.net>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: Trolls Life


>Simon Fuller wrote:
>
>BIG SNIP
>> A simple fact is that there are not many trolls around, so there is no
>> impetus to change things to suit them as well.
>> What do you all think? Any other ideas? Am I being too harsh?
>
>Nope. It's the plain truth and as a Troll character I know it.
>I think u described very well the life of a Troll, however u missed one
>thing. Because of that fear and because of Trolls' huge size and
>strength, people would think it a few more times before they start
>making jokes on one. It's like going to a fat wrestler and telling him:"
>Oh Boy you are FAT!"
>
>Cybertroll

Oh definitely. Nobody would be outright racist to a troll like they would to
an ork or dwarf if they liked their head to stay pointing forward. There
would be no derogatory names or crude and unfunny jokes. Its a whole other
kind of discrimination.
Message no. 12
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:41:23 +0200
Simon Fuller wrote:
>
>
> Oh definitely. Nobody would be outright racist to a troll like they would to
> an ork or dwarf if they liked their head to stay pointing forward. There
> would be no derogatory names or crude and unfunny jokes. Its a whole other
> kind of discrimination.

I'm not convinced. Here in South Africa, I"ve seen one old, skinny
white guys spewing abuse at a group of armed black men twice their size,
just because he believed that no black man would dare to attack a
white. And to a certain extent, he was correct - in those days, he had
the law and the government backing him up. If they'd dared to
retaliate, they'd have sustained all kinds of mysterious injuries while
under the loving care of the police.

So, if the police show enough prejudice, then humans will be a lot less
fearful of the 'lesser' races. The question then is, Just how much
support can Joe Bigot expect from the Star?

--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com

"As a computer, I find your faith in technology to be quite amusing"
Message no. 13
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:14:50 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Allen Versfeld <moe@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, April 13, 2000 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: Trolls Life


>Simon Fuller wrote:
>>
>>
>> Oh definitely. Nobody would be outright racist to a troll like they would
to
>> an ork or dwarf if they liked their head to stay pointing forward. There
>> would be no derogatory names or crude and unfunny jokes. Its a whole
other
>> kind of discrimination.
>
>I'm not convinced. Here in South Africa, I"ve seen one old, skinny
>white guys spewing abuse at a group of armed black men twice their size,
>just because he believed that no black man would dare to attack a
>white. And to a certain extent, he was correct - in those days, he had
>the law and the government backing him up. If they'd dared to
>retaliate, they'd have sustained all kinds of mysterious injuries while
>under the loving care of the police.
>
>So, if the police show enough prejudice, then humans will be a lot less
>fearful of the 'lesser' races. The question then is, Just how much
>support can Joe Bigot expect from the Star?
>
Point taken. Since trolls are quite capable of killing a human with a single
punch, the law would assume they were going to, just like you see on TV
where a black American in a nice car will always be pulled over because the
police assume it's stolen. The more trolls retaliate against abuse, the
harder it will be where the law's involved. That makes me rethink a few
things, like how welcome would the hardarse troll runner be in troll
society, when all they do is enforce negative stereotypes and make it harder
for the law abiding trolls?
Hmmm.
Message no. 14
From: kawaii trunks@********.org
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:09:30 -0400
From: "Allen Versfeld" <moe@*******.com>
<snip about how no one is outright discrimintory against trolls>
> So, if the police show enough prejudice, then humans will be a lot less
> fearful of the 'lesser' races. The question then is, Just how much
> support can Joe Bigot expect from the Star?
>

That depends on the makeup of the squad that responds, I suppose. If you
have a patrol car with an ork and troll (which is fairly common within the
star among the lower ranks), then I doubt they would react *too* adversely
to the fact that a troll smacked an uppity human upside the head, but then
there is the matter of loyalty to their job, how strongly they believe in
upholding the law, etc, etc.

In general, I would imagine that they suffer greater penalties in
prosecution, where it would be more human dominated than enforcement, where
there might be a significant percentage of non-humans.

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 15
From: Bruce iti03678@****.co.za
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:46:34 +0200
On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:09:30 -0400, kawaii wrote:

>From: "Allen Versfeld" <moe@*******.com>
><snip about how no one is outright discrimintory against trolls>
>> So, if the police show enough prejudice, then humans will be a lot less
>> fearful of the 'lesser' races. The question then is, Just how much
>> support can Joe Bigot expect from the Star?
>>
>
>That depends on the makeup of the squad that responds, I suppose. If you
>have a patrol car with an ork and troll (which is fairly common within the
>star among the lower ranks), then I doubt they would react *too* adversely
>to the fact that a troll smacked an uppity human upside the head, but then
>there is the matter of loyalty to their job, how strongly they believe in
>upholding the law, etc, etc.
>
>In general, I would imagine that they suffer greater penalties in
>prosecution, where it would be more human dominated than enforcement, where
>there might be a significant percentage of non-humans.

And keeping a troll from causing trouble in the lock up is going to be fun too.
Bigger cells to keep the human rights people happy, more food than the average prisoners,
the list goes on...



-+- Bruce
phantasm@****.co.za
Shadowrun Creative Resources www.jackpoint.org/lists/scr

Rule No. One : Don't Get Caught.
Message no. 16
From: Glenn Sprott wasntka44@*********.net
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:46:59 -0400
Simon Fuller wrote:

>Point taken. Since trolls are quite capable of killing a human with a
single
>punch, the law would assume they were going to, just like you see on
TV
>where a black American in a nice car will always be pulled over
because the
>police assume it's stolen. The more trolls retaliate against abuse,
the
>harder it will be where the law's involved. That makes me rethink a
few
>things, like how welcome would the hardarse troll runner be in troll
>society, when all they do is enforce negative stereotypes and make it
harder
>for the law abiding trolls?
>Hmmm.

Having been on the receiving end of rascist abuse as well as having
friends on both sides of that issue (black and white), I can tell you
my experience with it. (I don't want this thread to turn into a
contemporary race issue, but some of the examples will help with this
discussion.)

If the Star is anything like some of the police agencies I have had to
deal with over the years, then I would say that there WILL be abuse
both on the street as well as from the police themselves. I have
several friends who are police officers, and I can tell you that the
officers are human beings with their own emotions, prejudices, and
hang-ups as the rest of us. No matter what you see or hear on
television, these guys DO bring it to work. I have had conversations
with some officers who thought I was on "their side," and I can tell
you that these guys had more respect for the drunken asshole who beats
his wife than they did for the black man who looked at them "wrong."

I'm not simply cop bashing here. I have a lot of respect for the
police and their job. However, here in the Ohio area as well as in
the Florida area, the police have been consistant with their bigotry
and rascism. (Remember, I don't mean ALL the officers. Just the ones
I had contact with... which wasn't that many, but enough.)

Frustration on both sides of the "Troll-vs-everyone else" issue is
what will be the deciding factor in any situation, IMO. Every
metahuman group will feel that they are alone in their struggles.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there a "Troll District" in Seattle?
The elves have Tarislar, and the Orks have the Underground... I'm not
sure about the dwarves, but do the trolls? The other races have
something that they can consider a "safe" place when the shit hits the
fan. They know that they will be surrounded by others that are "just
like them." But do the trolls have that? I'm not sure, but I don't
think so. This seperation and removed feeling will eventually begin
to wear on the troll community.

And think about the damage a troll gang could cause? And to be
honest, I don't care how many friends you have, when a troll gang
walks down your street, you are probably going to move. Cops will not
mess with these gangers unless they have the numbers and firepower to
control the situation. The worst part is, the gang formed to protect
themselves in the first place, and they KNOW they are intimidating.
Eventually, that turns to bravado and ego... and once a fellow troll
gets assaulted by a bigotted cop, think about the reaction... Now
imagine if that troll were a woman.... I have seen black men today
almost kill a white kid because he called a black woman a "nigger
bitch." When the police arrived, most of them didn't run or hide.
They were proud to stand up for that young woman.

My point is that once the frustration turns to rage, the city could
have a serious problem on its hands.

But I really think the problem comes down to how "close" is the Star
to police today. I always considered the Star as less than cops and
more closely related to corp security. They get paid to do a job...
not die for it. I'm not saying cops today would throw their life on
the line for everyone, but I think that a lot of police officers see
what they do as more than just a job. (However, this is a different
topic for a different thread.) Apathy is the way of the Star... at
least, that's how I see it.

--------------------------
Wasntka
"...That peculiar disease of intellectuals,
that infatuation with ideas at the expense
of experience that compels experience to
conform to bookish preconceptions."
--Archibald MacLiesh
Message no. 17
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:19:58 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: kawaii <trunks@********.org>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, April 13, 2000 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: Trolls Life


>From: "Allen Versfeld" <moe@*******.com>
><snip about how no one is outright discrimintory against trolls>
>> So, if the police show enough prejudice, then humans will be a lot less
>> fearful of the 'lesser' races. The question then is, Just how much
>> support can Joe Bigot expect from the Star?
>>
>
>That depends on the makeup of the squad that responds, I suppose. If you
>have a patrol car with an ork and troll (which is fairly common within the
>star among the lower ranks), then I doubt they would react *too* adversely
>to the fact that a troll smacked an uppity human upside the head, but then
>there is the matter of loyalty to their job, how strongly they believe in
>upholding the law, etc, etc.
>


If you get a downtrodden people, who are basically made to occupy the lowest
rung of society, and then give some of them guns and uniforms and let them
know that they have authority and control over their brethren, would you
expect:
a) For them to treat their people with a consideration that someone from the
upper social ranks is incapable of, and basically make life for their people
a better place.
b) For them to go on a power trip and brutalise their former brethren
because they know that they are now better.
It is likely that a troll Star would take the human's side, to prove that he
is nearly as good as the humans and better than the average troll. Not
necessarily, but it would be there, and a troll cop is what you would want
if a troll crook was assaulting you, nobody else would be strong enough.
Message no. 18
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:34:16 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Sprott <wasntka44@*********.net>
To: Shadowrun Post <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Friday, April 14, 2000 9:46 AM
Subject: Trolls Life


>Frustration on both sides of the "Troll-vs-everyone else" issue is
>what will be the deciding factor in any situation, IMO. Every
>metahuman group will feel that they are alone in their struggles.
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there a "Troll District" in Seattle?
>The elves have Tarislar, and the Orks have the Underground... I'm not
>sure about the dwarves, but do the trolls? The other races have
>something that they can consider a "safe" place when the shit hits the
>fan. They know that they will be surrounded by others that are "just
>like them." But do the trolls have that? I'm not sure, but I don't
>think so. This seperation and removed feeling will eventually begin
>to wear on the troll community.
>
Trolls are 2% of Seattle's population. I think that the few trolls there are
basically are accepted into ork society. Same with dwarfs in human society.
Elves are pretty and long lived, but dwarfs are just like us only shorter.
Anyway, elves usually hold themselves seperate. No doubt there are
neighbourhoods of each metatype scattered throughout Seattle. Actually I
agree with you, but not quite to the same degree. The same situation is
described in the sourcebook with orks having no homeland.

>And think about the damage a troll gang could cause? And to be
>honest, I don't care how many friends you have, when a troll gang
>walks down your street, you are probably going to move. Cops will not
>mess with these gangers unless they have the numbers and firepower to
>control the situation. The worst part is, the gang formed to protect
>themselves in the first place, and they KNOW they are intimidating.
>Eventually, that turns to bravado and ego... and once a fellow troll
>gets assaulted by a bigotted cop, think about the reaction... Now
>imagine if that troll were a woman.... I have seen black men today
>almost kill a white kid because he called a black woman a "nigger
>bitch." When the police arrived, most of them didn't run or hide.
>They were proud to stand up for that young woman.
>
>My point is that once the frustration turns to rage, the city could
>have a serious problem on its hands.
>

I could see that happening. Especially if there was a wraith involved
(here's another potential run). However, it is true that a lot of the
biggest people are quite peaceful naturally, because they know that they are
so big and strong that they aren't threatened by anybody (I'm not talking
about the 'spend 6 hours a day in the gym and pump steroids' types here, I
mean naturally big and strong people). I see trolls to be a bit like this.
It is hard to be threatened by somebody half your size and weight, so you'll
take a lot of shit before being bothered. But, that is counting on a society
that in general treats them well, and we are assuming here that society does
not. 2061: Night of Rage II

>But I really think the problem comes down to how "close" is the Star
>to police today. I always considered the Star as less than cops and
>more closely related to corp security. They get paid to do a job...
>not die for it. I'm not saying cops today would throw their life on
>the line for everyone, but I think that a lot of police officers see
>what they do as more than just a job. (However, this is a different
>topic for a different thread.) Apathy is the way of the Star... at
>least, that's how I see it.
>
Me too.
Message no. 19
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:16:32 +0200
Simon Fuller wrote:
>
>
> If you get a downtrodden people, who are basically made to occupy the lowest
> rung of society, and then give some of them guns and uniforms and let them
> know that they have authority and control over their brethren, would you
> expect:
> a) For them to treat their people with a consideration that someone from the
> upper social ranks is incapable of, and basically make life for their people
> a better place.
> b) For them to go on a power trip and brutalise their former brethren
> because they know that they are now better.
> It is likely that a troll Star would take the human's side, to prove that he
> is nearly as good as the humans and better than the average troll. Not
> necessarily, but it would be there, and a troll cop is what you would want
> if a troll crook was assaulting you, nobody else would be strong enough.

I'm no longer speaking from personal experience, but from that of
friends... and I'd say that option b) is a common response. Black cops
under the old regime (as the press love to call it) joined in the
brutality with just as much verve as their white co-workers, even though
from those same co-workers still treated them as sub-human. *sigh* I
don't pretend to understand this, but simons explanation certainly
makes sense.
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com

"As a computer, I find your faith in technology to be quite amusing"
Message no. 20
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 00:52:39 -0700 (PDT)
<BigSnip(TM)>
> But I really think the problem comes down to how
"close" is the Star to police today. I always
considered the Star as less than cops and more closely
related to corp security. They get paid to do a
job... not die for it. I'm not saying cops today
would throw their life on the line for everyone, but I
think that a lot of police officers see what they do
as more than just a job. (However, this is a
different topic for a different thread.) Apathy is
the way of the Star... at least, that's how I see it.
> Wasntka

I'd have to disagree with you there, Glenn. To an
extent.

The Star may be a corp, but the job is the same in
2060 as it is today. You're still hired (at least, if
you're a street grunt) to protect the innocent etc.
I'm sure a lot of the honchos, and possibly a bunch of
the cops, see the Star as just another corp and
themselves as private security guards for the city,
but the same idealists who join the police force today
to do something for the community and to help people
are going to join the Star in the future, because they
ARE the cops. I think things are going to be more
black and white. Most cops will either be enthusiastic
and idealistic, or corrupt and apathetic (when it
comes to stopping crimes at least). There won't be
many in the middle.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com
Message no. 21
From: Glenn Sprott wasntka44@*********.net
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:33:52 -0400
Rand Ratinac wrote:

>The Star may be a corp, but the job is the same in
>2060 as it is today. You're still hired (at least, if
>you're a street grunt) to protect the innocent etc.
>I'm sure a lot of the honchos, and possibly a bunch of
>the cops, see the Star as just another corp and
>themselves as private security guards for the city,
>but the same idealists who join the police force today
>to do something for the community and to help people
>are going to join the Star in the future, because they
>ARE the cops. I think things are going to be more
>black and white. Most cops will either be enthusiastic
>and idealistic, or corrupt and apathetic (when it
>comes to stopping crimes at least). There won't be
>many in the middle.

You have a very good point. I think I get too drawn into the whole
"us against the corps" mentality sometimes.

What about the KE and Lone Star "war?" Do you think that both sides
are going to be doing their best to "appear" as the more
troll-friendly corp? (if that made any sense.) I mean, with them
both being corporations, do you think that they are both putting on a
huge PR campaign to appear less like a corp and more like cops? Or
maybe vice versa? What do think is better in the people's eyes in
2060: Corp or cop?

I do have to disagree with you about your last point. I think that
actually MOST of the police will be in the middle. Just like today,
young men and women go into police work expecting to "make a
difference," and when they see that it's actually a brotherhood (which
it is), they realize that they can't do as much as they wanted. Also,
people get a little frustrated with the system and the society in
which they patrol, and they begin to resent the people they are trying
to protect. Even though that cop started as a "good guy," he now just
sees the city as a place "full of shit" that he has to clean up, day
in and day out. He still believes in his work, but he's not going to
go out of his way to do anything. Just patrol the city, arrest
people, give tickets, collect his check, and go home to his wife and
2.3 kids. I think this puts him in the middle. IMO.

But maybe you are right... I don't know. It's hard to put myself in
that mindset to understand what the standard corp cop will be like in
the future. Anyone else have an opinion?

-----------------------------
Wasntka
"...That peculiar disease of intellectuals,
that infatuation with ideas at the expense
of experience that compels experience to
conform to bookish preconceptions."
--Archibald MacLiesh
Message no. 22
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 09:26:23 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Sprott <wasntka44@*********.net>
To: Shadowrun Post <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Saturday, April 15, 2000 8:40 AM
Subject: Trolls Life


>What about the KE and Lone Star "war?" Do you think that both sides
>are going to be doing their best to "appear" as the more
>troll-friendly corp? (if that made any sense.) I mean, with them
>both being corporations, do you think that they are both putting on a
>huge PR campaign to appear less like a corp and more like cops? Or
>maybe vice versa? What do think is better in the people's eyes in
>2060: Corp or cop?
>
It depends on public opinion. If there isn't much pro-troll support, and
lots of anti-troll sentiment, then they would be aiming their PR at cleaning
out the trolls from their ranks. "Hire Knight Errant for your precinct
policing. We promise NO dangerous troll officers threatening your safety."
"In 2059 there were 425 incidents of death or severe injury involved with
troll Knight Errant security officers. Lone Star, the police you can trust."
If there is a lot of pro-troll sentiment, then they would push the equal
opportunity angle. The problem being, in the real world racism is based on
skin pigmentation and minor physical features. For trolls the differences
are more than skin deep.
As for corp vs cop, it probably depends on the area. In a middle class,
family area or an area with an older population, the cop angle would be
pushed. In business districts and yuppie centres of population, the corp
angle would be better for business.
Message no. 23
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Trolls Life
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 22:37:36 -0700 (PDT)
> >The Star may be a corp, but the job is the same in
2060 as it is today. You're still hired (at least, if
you're a street grunt) to protect the innocent etc.
I'm sure a lot of the honchos, and possibly a bunch of
the cops, see the Star as just another corp and
themselves as private security guards for the city,
but the same idealists who join the police force today
to do something for the community and to help people
are going to join the Star in the future, because they
ARE the cops. I think things are going to be more
black and white. Most cops will either be enthusiastic
and idealistic, or corrupt and apathetic (when it
comes to stopping crimes at least). There won't be
many in the middle.
>
> You have a very good point. I think I get too drawn
into the whole "us against the corps" mentality
sometimes.

Exactly. To the bosses, the Star is a corp - but that
corp is still made up of people - and in this case,
cop people.

> What about the KE and Lone Star "war?" Do you think
that both sides are going to be doing their best to
"appear" as the more troll-friendly corp? (if that
made any sense.) I mean, with them both being
corporations, do you think that they are both putting
on a huge PR campaign to appear less like a corp and
more like cops? Or maybe vice versa? What do think
is better in the people's eyes in 2060: Corp or cop?

KE, yes, although they'd be more "meta-friendly" than
"troll-friendly". Lone Star would probably try, but I
think they'd give it up as a lost cause (the view of
racist Star cops would likely be firmly entrenched in
the public consciousness) and concentrate on other
issues. Cop, I'd say. Good cop, though.
"Cop-next-door" cop.

> I do have to disagree with you about your last
point. I think that actually MOST of the police will
be in the middle. Just like today, young men and
women go into police work expecting to "make a
difference," and when they see that it's actually a
brotherhood (which it is), they realize that they
can't do as much as they wanted. Also, people get a
little frustrated with the system and the society in
which they patrol, and they begin to resent the people
they are trying to protect. Even though that cop
started as a "good guy," he now just sees the city as
a place "full of shit" that he has to clean up, day in
and day out. He still believes in his work, but he's
not going to go out of his way to do anything. Just
patrol the city, arrest people, give tickets, collect
his check, and go home to his wife and 2.3 kids. I
think this puts him in the middle. IMO.
>
> But maybe you are right... I don't know. It's hard
to put myself in that mindset to understand what the
standard corp cop will be like in the future. Anyone
else have an opinion?
> Wasntka

Actually, I do. I'm afraid I expressed myself rather
poorly. In fact, I almost entirely said the opposite
of what I meant to say. I need more sleep. :) I don't
think almost every cop is going to be good or bad. I
think the situation will be POLARISED, though. The
extremes will be further apart (with the bad cops
being worse and the good cops doing their damndest to
stay lily-white (as long as that lasts)). The middle
will likely be smaller, although not to the extent I
said before. I think the "bad cop" side will likely be
more top-heavy. Even most of the average cops will
likely accept a little graft and corruption as
everyday business (just small things, of course).
They'll figure they have to do that to survive.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Trolls Life, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!