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Message no. 1
From: "V.A.L.I.S." <campbellcc@***.HENDRIX.EDU>
Subject: Trouble character
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 02:47:37 +0100
Hello again all on the list, I have another problem for you guys to help me
solve. (Hey, BTW nice chrismas banter... ;-)
Ok, Everybody rolled up their characters. I have three players, and
two of them came up with fairly realistic characters, and the third person
came up with a character that will not only be totally useless, will almost
certainly get the rest of the party killed along with himself.
The other character are well rounded, this player has created in
his words a 'Amerindian war combat shaman'. He took almost all combat
spells, six dots (sorry dice, V:TM creeps in) in firearms, and said he's
been fighting his whole life, and hates all technology. He want's to clear
the earth of all corpoartions and everything more complex than a plow.
Yeah, right.
So I told him, Listen you grew up in a city on the NAN. Your
parents worked for corps, and you watched and grew up with the trid like
everyone else. (he originally wanted his entire family dead.) He came up
with no friends or contacts or anything but his 'god-like shaman teacher,
master of combat spells'. I told him that their _weren't_ any wars, that
the tribal dance convinced the UCAS (or future UCAS, whatever) to let the
NAN go peacefully. So we toned that down a little bit.
The campaign is set in cleveland. He is a good player. (I should
know, he has a great vamp character opposite to mine. He is a lot of fun to
play with) I'm just not going to run a real combat heavy campaign, and not
only will he unbalance it, I don't want to get anyone killed. (It's no fun
for the players if b/c of him the rest of the party dies.) Oh, and there's
one more thing, the player is my roommate, so everything has to be
extra-special delicate.
Ok I'm looking for a few things from you guys, and I'm counting on
you to help out. I'm sure it would be a good character, he's just a little
extereme and unrealistic. How would you go about helping the problem, both
in what I should just have him change, and things I can do in play. I want
to let him have a 'cool' character, just not one that unbalances things for
everyone else.
Oh yeah, on another topic, I just recently bought a SR GM screen,
and it had a 199_5_ catalog in it. Geeze, I'm just looking for a 1996, and
they already have a 1997???
Thanks for any help, you can either e-mail me privatley or send to
the list.

Courtney-the-inbetween-a-rock-and-a-hard-place-with-a-1995-FASA-Catalog-GM


Sincerely,

Courtney C. Campbell...
(Male-Agnostic-Heterosexual-American)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
* Courtney C. Campbell *
* Campbellcc@*****.hendrix.edu *
* Http://www.hendrix.edu/homes/stu/campbellcc/ *
* ____| *
* |_|__ "I am not mad. *
* | I am intrested in freedom." *
* -James Douglas Morrison *
*---------------------------------------------------------------------*
* "Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." -Buckaroo Banzai *
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Matter is plastic in the face of mind
-Tractates Cryptica Scriptura
Phillip Kindred Dick/VALIS
Message no. 2
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Trouble character
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 01:45:08 -0800
Reader beware! Heavy sarcasm by end of post!

> Hello again all on the list, I have another problem for you guys to help
me
> solve. (Hey, BTW nice chrismas banter... ;-)

Entertaining, isn't it? :)

> The other character are well rounded, this player has created in
> his words a 'Amerindian war combat shaman'. He took almost all combat
> spells, six dots (sorry dice, V:TM creeps in) in firearms, and said he's
> been fighting his whole life, and hates all technology. He want's to
clear
> the earth of all corpoartions and everything more complex than a plow.

Umm... A shaman like that, IMO, is a Toxic shaman, (Avenger, I believe the
term is) and we all know Toxic Shaman are DM-only territory.

What's his totem? Rapid mongrel? Woman-who-runs-with-PMS? I don't think
any totem would be too happy having a Shaman so heavily into killing.
(Oops. Your Totem's pissed at you for being such a murdering bastard. Bye
bye magic!)

If he wants to clear the earth of all tech, why a firearms skill? That is
tech. He should be using a slingslot, or a plain, laminate bow. (Not even
a compound, since that too, is more complex than a plow. Pulleys? I don't
think so.)

How about transportation? No cars, no bikes, just his two little feet.
Gonna make running difficult if he won't get in the team escape vehicle.
They'll get away, and he'll get caught & clobbered everytime. Well, he
could carve himself a giant wooden wheel, and ride around BC style. Or a
horse!

No phones. No radios to keep in team contact. Bugger if something happens
to him. Is he going to have time to summon a watcher to find them, or will
his spirit buddy even be able to tell who the two friendlies are in that
group of twenty?

Where in the hell is he going to live? Is he going to make a bivowack in
an abandoned lot? No security. He'll get his neck slit in a second. Unless
he's going to use spells to protect himself. But then he's a Xmas tree fo
the magical beasties looking for dinner.

How about his clothes? It's gonna be pretty expensive buying only natural
made natural fibre things to wear. Gee. No armour. Silk just don't cut it
against bullets.

Money? No credsticks. Even the paper stuff was made using something more
complex than a plow.

No hospitals if he gets injured, and there's no magic to be had.

What ever you do, *Don't* let him initiate. He'll get access to too much
stuff to make his character even mroe ridiculously stupid. A combat
mongrel ain't gonna find too many people willing explore/share the higher
mysteries with him. For all they know, he's just going to turn on them
when he's learned all he can. (True or not, they could think this... Esp
if all he can do is kill in about three dozen different methods)

> Oh, and there's
> one more thing, the player is my roommate, so everything has to be
> extra-special delicate.

*Shudder* room-mate conflicts during games. I know that all to well...
(And for those keeping track: No. His GM style has not improved. Despite
many long discussions on the matter)

Oh! I thought of an advantage. He'd be a rare snack for magical beasties.
<GRIN> (Hold on. That's not that advantageous for him...)

Well, you can always use GM perogative. "No, your character will just not
fit with this world. He'd get himself and anyone he is with killed withing
the first day they ran. I don't even think he made it more than six months
in the shadows. Try again, and a bit less extreme this time."

If this is your first game GMing, you have every right to demand that he
make a more rounded character, until he (and you) get a feel for how the
world works. Come to think of it, you have that right every time you GM.

This is Shadowrun. Not Vampire : the Munchkinning.
<snicker>

Okay!
Rant off!
Happy December 27th!

--
Dvixen/Snow Leopard dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
The opinions expressed are those of the myriad voices in my head
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Trouble character
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 11:58:43 +0100
V.A.L.I.S. said on 2:47/27 Dec 96...

> The other character are well rounded, this player has created in
> his words a 'Amerindian war combat shaman'. He took almost all combat
> spells, six dots (sorry dice, V:TM creeps in) in firearms, and said he's
> been fighting his whole life, and hates all technology. He want's to clear
> the earth of all corpoartions and everything more complex than a plow.
> Yeah, right.

Good response, I would have said the same thing. IMHO this guy would be
a toxic shaman, if those are his ideals and his means to achieve them...

> So I told him, Listen you grew up in a city on the NAN. Your
> parents worked for corps, and you watched and grew up with the trid like
> everyone else. (he originally wanted his entire family dead.)

That's the easy way out in order not to have to have any attachments to
the rest of the world (which might be used against him by some enemy).

> Ok I'm looking for a few things from you guys, and I'm counting on
> you to help out. I'm sure it would be a good character, he's just a little
> extereme and unrealistic. How would you go about helping the problem, both
> in what I should just have him change, and things I can do in play. I want
> to let him have a 'cool' character, just not one that unbalances things for
> everyone else.

One option is to let him take the character into your campaign anyway,
and wait for him to screw up. The down side to this is that it may kill
off whatever adventures you have in mind when he reaches for his mana
bolt instead of trying to roleplay his way out of a situation that's
going against him. This could escalate really quickly, in the end forcing
you to kill the character to save the campaign, with the result that the
player might walk away, feeling you have something against him.

IMHO the character is unrealistic and could do with some changes. Since
you say the guy plays well in Vampire, I take it he has experience in
roleplaying, and isn't someone who's new to the hobby and thinks only in
terms of combat and money (like most of us did when we were new to this
:) Working together, you should be able to change the character in such a
way that he's still more or less as the player envisioned him, but with
changes that make him fit in with the rest of the players better. For
example, exchange several spells for other, non-combat, ones (and I don't
mean damaging manipulations :) Show him what cool things can be done with
other spells, even in a combat situation -- once he has them, he'll find
uses for them outside of combat. That goes for most other things as well,
if you ask me.

> Oh yeah, on another topic, I just recently bought a SR GM screen,
> and it had a 199_5_ catalog in it. Geeze, I'm just looking for a 1996, and
> they already have a 1997???

All that says is that the screen you bought, was printed in 1995. I bought
DMZ somewhere in '94 or '95, and it had a 1991 catalog in it... Guess how
long that had been sitting on the game store's shelves? :)

> Courtney C. Campbell...
> (Male-Agnostic-Heterosexual-American)
^^^^^^^^
I can't help but say this, but... who else would add all those things in
his .sig?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Then you get to the bottom and you do it again.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 4
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Trouble character
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 19:15:16 -0700
V.A.L.I.S. wrote:
|
| Ok, Everybody rolled up their characters. I have three players, and
| two of them came up with fairly realistic characters, and the third person
| came up with a character that will not only be totally useless, will almost
| certainly get the rest of the party killed along with himself.
| The other character are well rounded, this player has created in
| his words a 'Amerindian war combat shaman'. He took almost all combat
| spells, six dots (sorry dice, V:TM creeps in) in firearms, and said he's
| been fighting his whole life, and hates all technology. He want's to clear
| the earth of all corpoartions and everything more complex than a plow.
| Yeah, right.

Just be honest with him. Tell him that his character won't work in
your game, and why (Dvixen covered just about everything, except for
the fact that he'll never be hired to do a run if no one can call him,
and if he's been fighting his entire life then he'll have a
reputation.. and no one will hire him (except as a stooge)). Then tell
him what type of a game you'll be running (team environment, low
combat) and ask him to make a new character.

Honesty and rationality almost always work. The other guy will usually
respect you. And if it doesn't work at least you'll have piece of mind.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 5
From: Peter Coxon <coxoff@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Trouble character
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 23:01:04 UT
<SNIP>
IMHO the character is unrealistic and could do with some changes. Since
you say the guy plays well in Vampire, I take it he has experience in
roleplaying, and isn't someone who's new to the hobby and thinks only in
terms of combat and money (like most of us did when we were new to this
:)
<snip the last bit to>
Boy, it's great when that happens ain't it? it's like becoming initiate in the
kult of rpg's. :)
I remember....
<Flashback>
In my first ever game (sr as it happens) I played loved it, and went home and
wouldn't stop going on how I had walked into a reception, (eyewitness) and
shot 8 security gaurds with two ares predators....in the equivlent of about 2
seconds....(remind anyone of desperado?)
</Flashback>
Now I am nearly at the point of throttling my cyber gen Gm because My
character had just asked someone out, and I quote he says ' Well Errmm
I....Jesus is that the time sorry lads I am going to miss my train!' it took
me five minutes to find my jaw.....and of course he won't play at the moment
cause he hasn't got enough stuff for a whole session...B*ST*RD!!!
tim ntoo
Message no. 6
From: Airk <jfrank@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Trouble character
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 17:58:55 -0700
Peter Coxon wrote:

> <Flashback>
> In my first ever game (sr as it happens) I played loved it, and went home and
> wouldn't stop going on how I had walked into a reception, (eyewitness) and
> shot 8 security gaurds with two ares predators....in the equivlent of about 2
> seconds....(remind anyone of desperado?)
> </Flashback>
> Now I am nearly at the point of throttling my cyber gen Gm because My
> character had just asked someone out, and I quote he says ' Well Errmm
> I....Jesus is that the time sorry lads I am going to miss my train!' it took
> me five minutes to find my jaw.....and of course he won't play at the moment
> cause he hasn't got enough stuff for a whole session...B*ST*RD!!!
> tim ntoo

Only eight? ;)

My first experience was with the Palladium system, Heroes Unlimited.
Went through
3 buildings of "bad guys" and took out a total of 22 with my faithful
Dragunov and
pair of Brigadiers ;)
Message no. 7
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Trouble character
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:57:07 +0000
On 27 Dec 96 at 2:47, V.A.L.I.S. wrote:
[snip]
> Ok, Everybody rolled up their characters. I have three players, and
> two of them came up with fairly realistic characters, and the third person
> came up with a character that will not only be totally useless, will almost
> certainly get the rest of the party killed along with himself.
> The other character are well rounded, this player has created in
> his words a 'Amerindian war combat shaman'. He took almost all combat
> spells, six dots (sorry dice, V:TM creeps in) in firearms, and said he's
> been fighting his whole life, and hates all technology. He want's to clear
> the earth of all corpoartions and everything more complex than a plow.
1st) See what Lady Dvixen wrote, that covers most counter-actions you can use.
Well done.

2nd) Inform your player/roommate that this will be a short-time character
since he _will_ be killed in action very soon, endangering the other chars
too. Inform the other players too, especially if you roommate insists of
leading this char. Maybe _they_ decide to stop that mad toxic shaman...

On the other hand, that character is what our group used to call an "instant
adventure" or "a-i-a-c" (adventure-in-a-character) that will need just
small
triggers to run a whole evening of fun... with nearly no need for a GM to
intervene :-)
Message no. 8
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Trouble character
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 01:28:15 +0000
> From: "V.A.L.I.S." <campbellcc@WWW.HENDRIX.EDU>;
> Subject: Trouble character

> The other character are well rounded, this player has created in
> his words a 'Amerindian war combat shaman'. He took almost all combat
> spells, six dots (sorry dice, V:TM creeps in) in firearms, and said he's
> been fighting his whole life, and hates all technology. He want's to clear
> the earth of all corpoartions and everything more complex than a plow.

There seems to be a contradiction here, not that it is impossible,
mind you. If he's against anything more advanced than the plow (more
or less) then why'd he become a virtual master in firearms, a truly
advanced piece of tech? I can think of ways to make it work (read:
excuses) but can the player?


--Droopy
droopy@**.net

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