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Message no. 1
From: Callisto meulendijks.1@******.nl
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:16:02 +0200
Okay, this post has been long overdue (eh Gurth? :) It's simple and
straightforward so here it is:

My char uses the spell "Turn to Goo", or I should say HAS the
spell. With the intent on being able to melt those irritating locked
doors you find during runs. I figured when I designed it for 3rd
edition it worked the same way ramtouch does (being: you touch a
door and bye bye to the door, only with more of the mess).

Now me and Gurth were in an argument over this. According to him
the turn to goo spell affects the entire structure of a building, so I
can't goo a door, I'd have to goo the entire building. And even
though it would be fun to melt the Arcology just for kicks my char
probably wouldn't survive the drain (or make the targetnumber for
that matter :)

Needless to say I disagree with Gurth, otherwise this post would
have been unnessesary. I say it works like ramtouch, but I leave it
upto the opinions of the mass.

What do you guys think?

<comments here>


Callisto


"I do not drink, drinking dulls the senses, and I want
to experience the world in all it's agonising glory."

meulendijks.1@******.nl
http://home.hccnet.nl/meulendijks.1

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Message no. 2
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:08:47 -0600
Callisto wrote:
>Okay, this post has been long overdue (eh Gurth? :) It's simple and
>straightforward so here it is:
>
>My char uses the spell "Turn to Goo", or I should say HAS the
>spell. With the intent on being able to melt those irritating locked
>doors you find during runs. I figured when I designed it for 3rd
>edition it worked the same way ramtouch does (being: you touch a
>door and bye bye to the door, only with more of the mess).
>
>Now me and Gurth were in an argument over this. According to him
>the turn to goo spell affects the entire structure of a building, so I
>can't goo a door, I'd have to goo the entire building. And even
>though it would be fun to melt the Arcology just for kicks my char
>probably wouldn't survive the drain (or make the targetnumber for
>that matter :)
>
>Needless to say I disagree with Gurth, otherwise this post would
>have been unnessesary. I say it works like ramtouch, but I leave it
>upto the opinions of the mass.
>
>What do you guys think?
>
><comments here>

I'm going to side with Gurth.

The rules state that non-manipulation spells cannot target specific
locations on vehicles. I would extend that rule to buildings and other man
made structures. If you want to be able to bust through doors with a
spell, take a telekinetic manipulation spell, or an acid elemental
manipulation spell.

All IMHO.


To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday ... and all is well."
Message no. 3
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:52:42 -0400
dbuehrer@******.carl.org wrote:

> Callisto wrote:
> >Okay, this post has been long overdue (eh Gurth? :) It's simple and
> >straightforward so here it is:
> >
> >My char uses the spell "Turn to Goo", or I should say HAS the
> >spell. With the intent on being able to melt those irritating locked
> >doors you find during runs. I figured when I designed it for 3rd
> >edition it worked the same way ramtouch does (being: you touch a
> >door and bye bye to the door, only with more of the mess).
> >
> >Now me and Gurth were in an argument over this. According to him
> >the turn to goo spell affects the entire structure of a building, so I
> >can't goo a door, I'd have to goo the entire building. And even
> >though it would be fun to melt the Arcology just for kicks my char
> >probably wouldn't survive the drain (or make the targetnumber for
> >that matter :)
> >
> >Needless to say I disagree with Gurth, otherwise this post would
> >have been unnessesary. I say it works like ramtouch, but I leave it
> >upto the opinions of the mass.
> >
> >What do you guys think?
> >
> ><comments here>
>
> I'm going to side with Gurth.
>
> The rules state that non-manipulation spells cannot target specific
> locations on vehicles. I would extend that rule to buildings and other man
> made structures. If you want to be able to bust through doors with a
> spell, take a telekinetic manipulation spell, or an acid elemental
> manipulation spell.
>

But wouldn't "turn door to goo" be a transformation manipulation? I mean, you
ARE manipulating the atomic structure of a door to transform it into goo. And
since manipulation spells can target specific locations on vehicles and
buildings, then it would work. I don't know, it makes sense to me.

>
> All IMHO.
>
> To Life,
> -Graht
> http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
> --
> "Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday ... and all is well."

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++
d+) gm+ M P
Message no. 4
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:30:15 -0600
Strago wrote:
>dbuehrer@******.carl.org wrote:
>
> > The rules state that non-manipulation spells cannot target specific
> > locations on vehicles. I would extend that rule to buildings and other man
> > made structures. If you want to be able to bust through doors with a
> > spell, take a telekinetic manipulation spell, or an acid elemental
> > manipulation spell.
>
>But wouldn't "turn door to goo" be a transformation manipulation? I mean,
you
>ARE manipulating the atomic structure of a door to transform it into goo. And
>since manipulation spells can target specific locations on vehicles and
>buildings, then it would work. I don't know, it makes sense to me.

Somewhere I've gotten the impression that the "turn to goo" spell is a
combat spell...

And even if it's a transformation manipulation, I would rule the same
way. If it were an elemental manipulation and generated something that
could then be directed against a specific target, then it would work. Or
if it were a specific transformation spell (turn closest building door to
goo), then I think it would work. But from everything I've seen I would
rule that he could not target specific parts of a structure.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Warm nights, good food, kindred spirits....great life!"
Message no. 5
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:17:34 -0400
dbuehrer@******.carl.org wrote:

> <SNIP>

> > > The rules state that non-manipulation spells cannot target specific
> > > locations on vehicles. I would extend that rule to buildings and other man
> > > made structures. If you want to be able to bust through doors with a
> > > spell, take a telekinetic manipulation spell, or an acid elemental
> > > manipulation spell.
> >
> >But wouldn't "turn door to goo" be a transformation manipulation? I
mean, you
> >ARE manipulating the atomic structure of a door to transform it into goo. And
> >since manipulation spells can target specific locations on vehicles and
> >buildings, then it would work. I don't know, it makes sense to me.
>
> Somewhere I've gotten the impression that the "turn to goo" spell is a
> combat spell...
>
> And even if it's a transformation manipulation, I would rule the same
> way. If it were an elemental manipulation and generated something that
> could then be directed against a specific target, then it would work. Or
> if it were a specific transformation spell (turn closest building door to
> goo), then I think it would work. But from everything I've seen I would
> rule that he could not target specific parts of a structure.
>

Even if it is by touch? Like "Turn what I'm touching to goo"? It might help if
the
spell was posted so we all weren't guessing as to what the heck we're arguing
about...

>
> To Life,
> -Graht
> http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
> --
> "Warm nights, good food, kindred spirits....great life!"

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M P
Message no. 6
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:30:46 -0400
Around 04:17 PM 6/15/00, Strago was mumbling about:

>Even if it is by touch? Like "Turn what I'm touching to goo"? It might
>help if the
>spell was posted so we all weren't guessing as to what the heck we're arguing
>about...

How about the version for SR3 that Steve Kenson posted a few days ago?

By the way, if you missed he, he also gave a good explanation on why you
can target the door of a house but not the door of a car.

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 7
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:59:50 -0600
Strago wrote:
>dbuehrer@******.carl.org wrote:
>
> > And even if it's a transformation manipulation, I would rule the same
> > way. If it were an elemental manipulation and generated something that
> > could then be directed against a specific target, then it would work. Or
> > if it were a specific transformation spell (turn closest building door to
> > goo), then I think it would work. But from everything I've seen I would
> > rule that he could not target specific parts of a structure.
> >
>
>Even if it is by touch? Like "Turn what I'm touching to goo"?

Yes, because he's touching the house, and I would consider the house to be
the target, even if the part of the house he's touching is the door. It'd
be like transforming a person. If you happen to be touching their nose,
their entire body is still the target. You wouldn't transform their nose,
or their head, you'd transform their entire body.

> It might help if the
>spell was posted so we all weren't guessing as to what the heck we're arguing
>about...

Agreed :)

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"All things are at all times, in motion. Take the time to watch the dance."
-John Caeser Leafston
Message no. 8
From: Brian Johnson expatrie@*******.net
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:59:25 -0500
> "Turn what I'm touching to goo"

> By the way, if you missed he, he also gave a good explanation on why you
> can target the door of a house but not the door of a car.
>
>

Can't even imagine how it could be good-----

The way I'd see it is yes, you can hit an entire building with turn door to goo -
it just only works on the doors, just like blast tires (which exists in my world,
or would if I'd just tab it) will hit an entire car but only smeg the tires, and
blind hits an entire person, but only affects their eyes (your feet aren't
blinded).....

.

> Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.

Speaking of, looking for target builders?

_____________________________________________
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Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
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Message no. 9
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:51:53 -0500
From: <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>
Subject: Re: Turn to goo spell effects


> >My char uses the spell "Turn to Goo", or I should say HAS the
> >spell. With the intent on being able to melt those irritating locked
> >doors you find during runs. I figured when I designed it for 3rd
> >edition it worked the same way ramtouch does (being: you touch a
> >door and bye bye to the door, only with more of the mess).

I would like to point out that *this* is an additional qualifier to the
casting of the spell folks. Directly touching a target, especially, might
indeed change how the spell works.

> >Now me and Gurth were in an argument over this. According to him
> >the turn to goo spell affects the entire structure of a building, so I
> >can't goo a door, I'd have to goo the entire building. And even
> >though it would be fun to melt the Arcology just for kicks my char
> >probably wouldn't survive the drain (or make the targetnumber for
> >that matter :)

I do indeed see where the perplexity might come into the topic. Most of the
time, Gurth would probably be right. Note I said most of the time, and I do
realize how headstrong he can be once he feels he is (*strange angelic look
of absolute innocence displayed upon K's face ;-) *)

> >Needless to say I disagree with Gurth, otherwise this post would
> >have been unnessesary. I say it works like ramtouch, but I leave it
> >upto the opinions of the mass.
> >
> >What do you guys think?
> >
> ><comments here>
>
> I'm going to side with Gurth.

Not good Dave, you'll see why in a second.

> The rules state that non-manipulation spells cannot target specific
> locations on vehicles. I would extend that rule to buildings and other
man
> made structures. If you want to be able to bust through doors with a
> spell, take a telekinetic manipulation spell, or an acid elemental
> manipulation spell.

Ah, but this is a manipulation spell, isn't it???? Look at the wording that
you are using ... and yes I'm being pigheaded now as well. Also,
manipulation spells (especially *Transformation Manipulation*) have a
variety of limitations to them almost inherently. Fix, Fashion, Transform,
etc... all have a limitation to them of some kind. Also, as we're seeing
now this is being directly tapped, as the spell is being cast while a target
touches something directly.

Actually, I think that given the idea that the caster in question is
directly touching the door, and I'm going to presume s/he is also able to
see it somehow, then the Turn to Goo would only hit the door.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 10
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:49:20 +0200
According to Callisto, at 21:16 on 15 Jun 00, the word on the street
was...

> Okay, this post has been long overdue (eh Gurth? :)

*sigh* I wish he'd actually read the list...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:29:23 -0500
:Yes, because he's touching the house, and I would consider the house to be
:the target, even if the part of the house he's touching is the door. It'd
:be like transforming a person. If you happen to be touching their nose,
:their entire body is still the target. You wouldn't transform their nose,
:or their head, you'd transform their entire body.

I'd disagree- a door is very much a seperate physcial componant. The
rules even aknoledge this- it has its own barrier rating seperate form the
buildings walls or whatever. The same is not true of somebodies nose, or of
vehicualr componants.

Mongoose

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Message no. 12
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 01:52:31 -0500
From: "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Turn to goo spell effects


> I'd disagree- a door is very much a seperate physcial componant. The
> rules even aknoledge this- it has its own barrier rating seperate form the
> buildings walls or whatever. The same is not true of somebodies nose, or
of
> vehicualr componants.
>
> Mongoose

Actually, this is where you are also wrong. Bullet Proof Glass has it's own
barrier ratings in the books as well. Used to be an "8" IIRC.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Winstar Tech Support and Provisioning (www.winstar.com)
Message no. 13
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:41:18 GMT
>From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
>>Okay, this post has been long overdue (eh Gurth? :) It's simple and
>>straightforward so here it is:
he entire building. And even
<snip>
>>What do you guys think?
>>
>><comments here>
>
>I'm going to side with Gurth.
>
>The rules state that non-manipulation spells cannot target specific
>locations on vehicles. I would extend that rule to buildings and other man
>made structures. If you want to be able to bust through doors with a
>spell, take a telekinetic manipulation spell, or an acid elemental
>manipulation spell.

(Despite the fact that this discussion has already risen through the stages
of intelligent discussion into unrelated topics and is on the brink of
decending into humerous conversations normally involving parts of Doc's
anatomy once already when Gurth brought the question up)...

With area effect spells the ruling is easy; it can't effect anything bigger
than it's AOE. Except having said that, a target might only just excede the
spell's size in which case it should be effected. Basically I would say
that a spell can not target a whole building without having the exteneded
range option on it. It can target important parts of it's structure and try
to knock it over but...

Okay, this is a more difficult topic than I thought it would be. The
thought of being able to turn buildings to goo is a bit too dangerous to be
allowed ("the prototype's in this one? Okay then...").

Howver, I would refer anyone going to assult this issue to Ritual Socery in
MITS where it says that to target a building requires a brick from it;
something that was inside it will not do, which implys to me that a building
has one aura and therefore can only be targeted as one entity.

Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

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Message no. 14
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:00:55 +0200
According to Phil Smith, at 8:41 on 17 Jun 00, the word on the street
was...

> With area effect spells the ruling is easy; it can't effect anything bigger
> than it's AOE.

That's exactly the problem: what's the area of effect of a single-target
spell?

> Except having said that, a target might only just excede the
> spell's size in which case it should be effected. Basically I would say
> that a spell can not target a whole building without having the exteneded
> range option on it.

Extended area, surely. Still, a typical house could fit into the sphere
that is the area of effect of an area-effect spell with little trouble,
unless the magician happens to have lost some Magic points.

> Okay, this is a more difficult topic than I thought it would be. The
> thought of being able to turn buildings to goo is a bit too dangerous to be
> allowed ("the prototype's in this one? Okay then...").

Except that in that case, the goo-ed building covers everything you may
want to get out of it, so you'll have to search through the mess...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:04:06 GMT
>From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
> > With area effect spells the ruling is easy; it can't effect anything
>bigger
> > than it's AOE.
>
>That's exactly the problem: what's the area of effect of a single-target
>spell?

Or rather; how big can a single target be?

> > Except having said that, a target might only just excede the
> > spell's size in which case it should be effected. Basically I would say
> > that a spell can not target a whole building without having the
>exteneded
> > range option on it.
>
>Extended area, surely. Still, a typical house could fit into the sphere
>that is the area of effect of an area-effect spell with little trouble,
>unless the magician happens to have lost some Magic points.

You know what I mean :)>

> > Okay, this is a more difficult topic than I thought it would be. The
> > thought of being able to turn buildings to goo is a bit too dangerous to
>be
> > allowed ("the prototype's in this one? Okay then...").
>
>Except that in that case, the goo-ed building covers everything you may
>want to get out of it, so you'll have to search through the mess...

But still, any guards inside promptly fall as the building collapses around
them, and if you have a good idea where the prototype would be or a detect
(object) spell, your life would be mage a lot easier if the building could
be goo-ed.

Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

________________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 16
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 19:18:23 +0200
According to Phil Smith, at 11:04 on 17 Jun 00, the word on the street
was...

> >That's exactly the problem: what's the area of effect of a single-target
> >spell?
>
> Or rather; how big can a single target be?

It was a bit of a rhetorical question... If a building is a single target
(or even if its structure is a single target, with doors etc. being
separate ones) then you can hit the whole of it with a single-target
spell, even though your area of effect can be much larger this way than
with any area-effect spell.

> >Except that in that case, the goo-ed building covers everything you may
> >want to get out of it, so you'll have to search through the mess...
>
> But still, any guards inside promptly fall as the building collapses around
> them

True. Could be a good way of getting them out of the way :)

> and if you have a good idea where the prototype would be or a detect
> (object) spell, your life would be mage a lot easier if the building
> could be goo-ed.

The trouble with Detect (Object) spells is that this isn't AD&D, where you
can learn a spell when you think you'll need it (or Ars Magica, which
allows you yo improvise a spell's effects). Having a Detect Latest Ares
Prototype Gizmo spell is useful for a single run, but that's it...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: Stephen Guilliot s.guilliot@**********.edu
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects.
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:19:59 -0500
From: "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*****.com>
>> I'd disagree- a door is very much a seperate physcial componant. The
>> rules even aknoledge this- it has its own barrier rating seperate form
the
>> buildings walls or whatever. The same is not true of somebodies nose, or
>>of vehicualr componants.
>
>Actually, this is where you are also wrong. Bullet Proof Glass has it's
own
>barrier ratings in the books as well. Used to be an "8" IIRC.

He's not really wrong. A vehicle's bullet-proof glass only has a seperate
rating when you are firing through it at you true target, the object inside
the vehicle. If the vehicle is the target, as is the context of his comment,
then "Vehicles are single entities. A vehicle's wheels, windshield, antenna
and other accessories are interrelated components. Therefore, magicians
cannot use magic to target individual portions of a vehicle." (SR3 p.150)

>From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
>The rules state that non-manipulation spells cannot target specific
>locations on vehicles. I would extend that rule to buildings and other man
>made structures. If you want to be able to bust through doors with a
>spell, take a telekinetic manipulation spell, or an acid elemental
>manipulation spell.

Non-elemental manipulation spells cannot target specific locations, so a
telekinetic manipulation wouldn't work unless you say the door is a seperate
object. The acid manipulation would work only because it is treated just
like any other ranged attack. However, (at any reasonable force) it would be
able to melt only weak barriers, and you're still left with a puddle of
caustic acid to wade through as you enter the empty doorway.

From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
>what's the area of effect of a single-target spell?

I would say an item is an item and a house could be targeted, regardless.
However, this is a moot point. Either a door can be targetted as an object
or you have to target the whole building. In the former case, no problem. In
the latter, since there are no "Buildings and Magic" rules anywhere, the
"Vehicles and Magic" rules make the most sense when dealing with magic and
LARGE targets. There, SR3 states that spells cast against LARGE objects
"have a target number based on their Object Resistance (8, 10+) plus their
body rating plus half their armor rating (rounded down)." Now, exactly what
is the body rating of a building, keeping in mind that a 308kg troll can
have a body of 11........?

This all works out quite nicely. The mage can t_r_y to affect a building but
has a snowballs chance of succeeding. His magic (i.e. force X) just isn't
powerfull enough to have such a cataclysmic effect (i.e. goo hundreds to
millions of tons of building). So, if it where my game in question, I would
give the mage a choice at the time of casting: 1. cast the spell against the
door or 2. the whole building. In other words, let the mage choose his own
folly. With this ruling, I wouldn't have to worry about any character gooing
Mt.Ranier or the Renraku Arcology, but he still has a nice spell to do what
it was intended to do: goo doors. Imagine that.
Message no. 18
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:44:11 -0500
>>>The trouble with Detect (Object) spells is that this isn't AD&D, where
you
can learn a spell when you think you'll need it (or Ars Magica, which
allows you yo improvise a spell's effects). Having a Detect Latest Ares
Prototype Gizmo spell is useful for a single run, but that's it...
Gurth@******.nl

Good point. That, plus the "slaughter enemies" spell thread, brings an
idea to mind- how about instead of a spell with a "limited" target
modisifer, a spell with a "selective" target modifier?
For combat spells, this would be like having ALL the "slay species"
spells on tap. For detection spells, you could cast it as "detect (chosen)
object", or even sustain it and change the object in question as a complex
action.
The trick would be, instead of having LOWER drain, the spell would have
HIGHER drain. How much higher would it have to be to make this balanced?
I'm thinking at least +1 TN and +1 level. Does that sound reasonable, or is
this just to powerful, since it (almost) makes a class of spells obsolete.
Maybe being able to cast such spells should require a form of metamagic,
called "spell tuning" or something?

Mongoose


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Message no. 19
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:36:54 GMT
>From: "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*****.com>
>Maybe being able to cast such spells should require a form of metamagic,
>called "spell tuning" or something?
>
>Mongoose

On The Fly Spellcasting, NAGEE 8. It's pretty much exactly what you
describe.

Phil

These are my principles; if you don't like them I have some others.
-Groucho Marx

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Message no. 20
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:13:11 -0600
Phil Smith wrote:
>>From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
>> > With area effect spells the ruling is easy; it can't effect anything
>> bigger
>> > than it's AOE.
>>
>>That's exactly the problem: what's the area of effect of a single-target
>>spell?
>
>Or rather; how big can a single target be?

AFAIK, the largest target you can find in Shadowrun is the Earth.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Warm nights, good food, kindred spirits....great life!"
Message no. 21
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects.
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:19:48 -0600
Stephen Guilliot wrote:

>"Vehicles are single entities. A vehicle's wheels, windshield, antenna
>and other accessories are interrelated components. Therefore, magicians
>cannot use magic to target individual portions of a vehicle." (SR3 p.150)

That's what my opinion is founded on. I also view the individual
components of a building (doors, windows, chimneys, elevators, etc) as
interrelated components, and thus do not allow magicians to use magic to
target individual portions of a building (with elemental manipulation
spells being the only exception).

If your opinion is different than mine, fine :) Gurth's player asked for
opinions, I gave mine. Instead of debating my opinion, might I suggest
that you give him your opinion, and the foundation for your opinion.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"All things are at all times, in motion. Take the time to watch the dance."
-John Caeser Leafston
Message no. 22
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects.
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:05:18 -0400
Around 10:19 AM 6/19/00, dbuehrer@******.carl.org was thinking about:
>Stephen Guilliot wrote:
>
>>"Vehicles are single entities. A vehicle's wheels, windshield, antenna
>>and other accessories are interrelated components. Therefore, magicians
>>cannot use magic to target individual portions of a vehicle." (SR3 p.150)

There are no such things as car spirits, they are considered objects in a
City Spirit's Domain. In much the same way as a forest spirit can affect an
individual tree (an object that makes up the domain), a city spirit can
affect an individual car.

>That's what my opinion is founded on. I also view the individual
>components of a building (doors, windows, chimneys, elevators, etc) as
>interrelated components, and thus do not allow magicians to use magic to
>target individual portions of a building (with elemental manipulation
>spells being the only exception).

An entire class of spirits, Hearth Spirits, have their domain as a
building. A hearth spirit summoned for an individual building can do things
to parts of the building, and affect what happens inside the building, but
cannot affect anything outside of the building. He can treat parts of the
building (like a door or wall) as a separate item (an object that makes up
the domain).

Therefore, IMNSHO, there exists a magical precedent for treating cars as
single entities, but buildings as collections of different entities that
may be individually targeted by spells.

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 23
From: Wolfchild nathan.olsen@*******.msus.edu
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:25:44 -0500 (CDT)
On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 dbuehrer@******.carl.org wrote:

> Phil Smith wrote:
> >>From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
> >> > With area effect spells the ruling is easy; it can't effect anything
> >> bigger
> >> > than it's AOE.

Perhaps you are right, but our group has always had the impression that
AoE spells cannot effect anything located completely outside the AoE. This
means that as long as at least some part of a target is within the AoE
then it is effected. Maybe we misread the rules somewhere but I seem to
remember something about single-target spellseffecting targets where only
part of the aura is visible (such as around corners).

> >>That's exactly the problem: what's the area of effect of a single-target
> >>spell?
> >
> >Or rather; how big can a single target be?
>
> AFAIK, the largest target you can find in Shadowrun is the Earth.


As I mentioned in a previous post, it would make sense to limit the
effectiveness of single-target spells to a maximum radius (or is it
diameter?) of the caster's Magic Rating in meters. This allows the caster
to blow holes in walls without destroying the entire building and to dig a
hole without effecting the entire Earth.

Once again YMMV.


Wolfchild - "Life ain't easy for a troll named Sue."
--
"Quin tu istanc orationem hinc veterem atque|"Let us spend one day as
antiquam amoves?" -Plautus, Miles Gloriosus|deliberately as Nature. . .
--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--|and not be thrown off the
"There are nights when the wolves are silent|track by every nutshell and
and only the moon howls." -George Carlin |mosquito's wing that falls on
Wolfchild <nathan.olsen@*******.msus.edu> |the rails." -H.D.Thoreau
Message no. 24
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects.
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:59:19 -0600
Sommers wrote:
>Around 10:19 AM 6/19/00, dbuehrer@******.carl.org was thinking about:
>>Stephen Guilliot wrote:
>>
>>>"Vehicles are single entities. A vehicle's wheels, windshield, antenna
>>>and other accessories are interrelated components. Therefore, magicians
>>>cannot use magic to target individual portions of a vehicle." (SR3 p.150)
>
>There are no such things as car spirits, they are considered objects in a
>City Spirit's Domain. In much the same way as a forest spirit can affect
>an individual tree (an object that makes up the domain), a city spirit can
>affect an individual car.
>
>>That's what my opinion is founded on. I also view the individual
>>components of a building (doors, windows, chimneys, elevators, etc) as
>>interrelated components, and thus do not allow magicians to use magic to
>>target individual portions of a building (with elemental manipulation
>>spells being the only exception).
>
>An entire class of spirits, Hearth Spirits, have their domain as a
>building. A hearth spirit summoned for an individual building can do
>things to parts of the building, and affect what happens inside the
>building, but cannot affect anything outside of the building. He can treat
>parts of the building (like a door or wall) as a separate item (an object
>that makes up the domain).
>
>Therefore, IMNSHO, there exists a magical precedent for treating cars as
>single entities, but buildings as collections of different entities that
>may be individually targeted by spells.

But a magician is not a spirit, and a domain is not a target. Apples and
oranges, IMHO.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"What you are doing at the moment must be exactly what
you are doing at the moment--and nothing else."
Message no. 25
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:08:09 -0600
Wolfchild wrote:

>As I mentioned in a previous post, it would make sense to limit the
>effectiveness of single-target spells to a maximum radius (or is it
>diameter?) of the caster's Magic Rating in meters. This allows the caster
>to blow holes in walls without destroying the entire building and to dig a
>hole without effecting the entire Earth.

Ah, so one's opinion in this debate is based on whether or not one wants to
allow mages to blow holes in walls and knock down doors. :)

I'm perfectly happy with ruling that a building is a single entity (as is
the earth) with regards to most spells (with elemental manipulation spells
being the exception). If the group wants to go through a door or wall,
that's what the demolitions expert or troll is for. If a mage wants to be
able to blow through walls and take down doors, in my game, he can put
points into an elemental manipulation spell.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Wisdom has two parts: having a lot to say, and not saying it."
Message no. 26
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects.
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 12:32:56 -0400
At 11:59 AM 6/19/2000, dbuehrer@******.carl.org wrote:
>>Therefore, IMNSHO, there exists a magical precedent for treating cars as
>>single entities, but buildings as collections of different entities that
>>may be individually targeted by spells.
>
>But a magician is not a spirit, and a domain is not a target. Apples and
>oranges, IMHO.

I don't think its quite apples and oranges. How about green and red apples? ;)

No, I don't think that its a direct comparison, but without actual
precedent on the building, its seems that it should be valid. Spirits do
follow at least some of the same rules as spellcasters for the way that
magic works.

I'm also falling back on what Steve Kenson said, since he's the one who did
a lot of this stuff. His arguement was basically if you point at a car, I
say that you're pointing at the car first, then I say you're pointing at
the door. If you point at the front door to your house, I say that you're
pointing at your door first, then I say you're pointing at your house.

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 27
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects.
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:50:04 -0600
Sommers wrote:
>At 11:59 AM 6/19/2000, dbuehrer@******.carl.org wrote:
>>>Therefore, IMNSHO, there exists a magical precedent for treating cars as
>>>single entities, but buildings as collections of different entities that
>>>may be individually targeted by spells.
>>
>>But a magician is not a spirit, and a domain is not a target. Apples and
>>oranges, IMHO.
>
>I don't think its quite apples and oranges. How about green and red apples? ;)
>
>No, I don't think that its a direct comparison, but without actual
>precedent on the building, its seems that it should be valid. Spirits do
>follow at least some of the same rules as spellcasters for the way that
>magic works.

Yes, but spirits are critters not of this world. IMHO their set of rules
are completely different from mages, and just happen to converge in a few
spots. What holds true for one may not hold true for the other.

>I'm also falling back on what Steve Kenson said, since he's the one who
>did a lot of this stuff. His arguement was basically if you point at a
>car, I say that you're pointing at the car first, then I say you're
>pointing at the door. If you point at the front door to your house, I say
>that you're pointing at your door first, then I say you're pointing at
>your house.

Then you're only limited by the mage's perceptions. What if the mage sees
a car as it's component parts, not as a whole? What if he sees the door of
a car before he sees the car? Can that mage then target the door?

I see a house door as part of a house, not as a separate entity. Steve
sees a house door as a separate entity. If we were mages does this mean
that Steve would be able to target the door and I wouldn't?

Is the determinant factor based on the mage's perception, or is it a hard
and fast rule based on magic's perception?

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Anything I have ever done that ultimately was worthwhile....
initially scared me to death."
-Betty Bender
Message no. 28
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:56:21 -0600
Sorry for doubling up on this post. I sent the first one before I had
finished (darn distractions at work ;)

Sommers wrote:
>>>At 11:59 AM 6/19/2000, dbuehrer@******.carl.org wrote:
>>>Therefore, IMNSHO, there exists a magical precedent for treating cars as
>>>single entities, but buildings as collections of different entities that
>>>may be individually targeted by spells.
>>
>>But a magician is not a spirit, and a domain is not a target. Apples and
>>oranges, IMHO.
>
>I don't think its quite apples and oranges. How about green and red apples? ;)
>
>No, I don't think that its a direct comparison, but without actual
>precedent on the building, its seems that it should be valid. Spirits do
>follow at least some of the same rules as spellcasters for the way that
>magic works.

Yes, but spirits are critters not of this world. IMHO their set of rules
are completely different from mages, and just happen to converge in a few
spots. What holds true for one may not hold true for the other.

>I'm also falling back on what Steve Kenson said, since he's the one who
>did a lot of this stuff. His arguement was basically if you point at a
>car, I say that you're pointing at the car first, then I say you're
>pointing at the door. If you point at the front door to your house, I say
>that you're pointing at your door first, then I say you're pointing at
>your house.

Then you're only limited by the mage's perceptions. What if the mage sees
a car as it's component parts, not as a whole? What if he sees the door of
a car before he sees the car? Can that mage then target the door?

I see a house door as part of a house, not as a separate entity. Steve
sees a house door as a separate entity. If we were mages does this mean
that Steve would be able to target the door and I wouldn't?

Is the determinant factor based on the mage's perception, or is it a hard
and fast rule based on magic's perception?

I'm interpreting the vehicle targeting rule to mean that SR's magic
perceives a vehicle as a single target, and that the mage's perception of
the vehicle doesn't matter. If SR magic perceives a vehicle as a single
target, then I think it would perceive a building as a single target.

The mage may think of the door as a target, but the spell can only see the
building as a whole, and can't differentiate the building from it's
component parts, IMHO.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Apparently I'm insane. But I'm one of the happy kinds!"
-Wally
Message no. 29
From: Stephen Guilliot s.guilliot@**********.edu
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects.
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:01:56 -0500
Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
>There are no such things as car spirits, they are considered objects in a
>City Spirit's Domain. In much the same way as a forest spirit can affect an
>individual tree (an object that makes up the domain), a city spirit can
>affect an individual car.

You are absolutely right about what city spirits can do, but you lost me in
a big way. What spirits are you referring to? I was writing about targetting
specific components of vehicles (and buildings) with spells; no spirits
involved. Maybe you could expand upon this? Thanks for the reply.

Steve.
Message no. 30
From: Stephen Guilliot s.guilliot@**********.edu
Subject: Turn to goo spell effects.
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:01:51 -0500
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
>That's what my opinion is founded on. I also view the individual
>components of a building (doors, windows, chimneys, elevators, etc) as
>interrelated components, and thus do not allow magicians to use magic to
>target individual portions of a building (with elemental manipulation
>spells being the only exception).

Good, then I'm glad we can agree. I wasn't contradicting you in anyway, just
expanding upon what you stated when you wrote "that non-manipulation spells
cannot target specific locations". I was only making the more specific point
that non-elemental manipulation magic cannot target specific components of
buildings and cars.

>If your opinion is different than mine, fine :) Gurth's player asked for
>opinions, I gave mine. Instead of debating my opinion, might I suggest
>that you give him your opinion, and the foundation for your opinion.

I'm certainly glad we can agree, yet again. In fact, I did exactly what you
suggest in the same post that you replied to, right below the paragraph you
read. No thin skins, alright? I didn't mean anything personal, so please
don't take offense. Thanks.

Steve.

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