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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Eric Bergstrom)
Subject: Two cyberware questions
Date: Sun Jun 30 19:30:01 2002
I have two questions about Cyberware.
First don't the essences costs for VCRs seem rather high?
It seems that there are far more intrusive peices of cyberware,
that consume less essence. Is it suppose to be .1, .3, .5 essence?
Also, from my understanding dosen't rating 4 move by wire kill the
person it is installed in? how can you loose more than 6 essence,
barring cybermancy? For a finaly question can cyberware be unistalled?
and does uninstalling grant the person his essence back so that they
may install other pecies of cyberware?
oh Also, this mailing list helps me alot as a new Shadowrun GM,
Thanks for the help.
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Two cyberware questions
Date: Sun Jun 30 21:20:01 2002
>I have two questions about Cyberware.
>First don't the essences costs for VCRs seem rather high?
>It seems that there are far more intrusive peices of cyberware,
>that consume less essence. Is it suppose to be .1, .3, .5 essence?
>Also, from my understanding dosen't rating 4 move by wire kill the
>person it is installed in? how can you loose more than 6 essence,
>barring cybermancy? For a finaly question can cyberware be unistalled?
>and does uninstalling grant the person his essence back so that they
>may install other pecies of cyberware?
>oh Also, this mailing list helps me alot as a new Shadowrun GM,
>Thanks for the help.

To answer the second question. Other grades of cyberware exsist, and if a
character is getting MBW (esp level 4) it's more then likely being done at a
Delta clinic which has access to delta-grade wares.

"Uninstalling" cyberware removes the cyber, but NOTHING restores lost
essence(save HMHVV, but that's an extreme case). It leaves an essence
"hole" that can be filled with other cyber. I'm sure somebody's going to
come along and give you an example so I won't.



EMFN John Valeu
-AKA- TimeKeeper
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Danyeal De La Luna)
Subject: Two cyberware questions
Date: Mon Jul 1 01:15:01 2002
>"Uninstalling" cyberware removes the cyber, but NOTHING restores lost
>essence(save HMHVV, but that's an extreme case). It leaves an essence
>"hole" that can be filled with other cyber. I'm sure somebody's going to
>come along and give you an example so I won't.

As our illustrious Electrician's Mate had stated, someone will come along...

If you remove the cyber, you aren't replacing it with the lost part that
originally occupied the spot. Even a cloned part won't make up for the loss
of essence sine the cloned part isn't part of the original equipment. The
reason VCR's are so high, is that they are a helluva lot more intrusive
thanks, say, an arm or eyes. They have to dig out part of your brain to make
the thing fit. If you notice, all brain related cyber (well, anything of any
real size) takes up a lot more essence that non-brain related cyber.

Another thing you have to factor in is the relative insanity that it takes
to voluntarily remove a perfectly healthy part of your body and replace it
with machinery that has a relatively high failure rate that was contracted
by the lowest bidder. An example: would you replace your long term memory
with a unit made by Microsoft? Imagine the crash.


Lunatec

Former EW2/E02/UDT/37F

<a cookie for anyone who can figure all of those out>
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Downtym)
Subject: Two cyberware questions
Date: Mon Jul 1 05:30:01 2002
On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Danyeal De La Luna wrote:


> An example: would you replace your long term memory with a unit made
> by Microsoft? Imagine the crash.

s/Microsoft/Western Digital

God forbid if Microsoft writes your deck's MPCP...*shivers*

Downtym |
Email: gte138j@*****.gatech.edu | Post no bills
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Two cyberware questions
Date: Mon Jul 1 06:05:01 2002
According to Eric Bergstrom, on Mon, 01 Jul 2002 the word on the street was...

> First don't the essences costs for VCRs seem rather high?
> It seems that there are far more intrusive peices of cyberware,
> that consume less essence. Is it suppose to be .1, .3, .5 essence?

It has always been 1, 3 and 5 points, so with 13 years and two editions to
correct this, it's unlikely to have been a mistake. Perhaps part of the
explanation is that, in SR1, a VCR did the same as wired reflexes, except it
didn't give the extra initiative dice unless you were plugged into a vehicle
-- so with a VCR 2, Quickness 4 and Intelligence 4, you had a Reaction of
4(8), but Initiative 8+1D6 when not jacked in, or 8+3D6 when you were.

> Also, from my understanding dosen't rating 4 move by wire kill the
> person it is installed in? how can you loose more than 6 essence,
> barring cybermancy?

You can take alpha, beta or deltaware versions. MBW-4's Essence cost of 7
becomes 7 x 0.8 = 5.6 when it's alphaware, in which case it's doable.

> For a finaly question can cyberware be unistalled?

IMHO that depends on the item and GM's discretion. It's specifically
mentioned that boosted reflexes can't be removed or upgraded, so that's one
case where you have a clear answer, but for the rest you need to look at
whether the character could do without, and how the item is probably built
into the body. For example, a cyberarm shouldn't be too hard to remove
(leaving the character with only one arm, though) but removing MBW would most
likely paralyze the character from the neck down. Not an option, I'd say.

> and does uninstalling grant the person his essence back so that they
> may install other pecies of cyberware?

No, you don't get the Essence it cost back. Instead, you're left with an
Essence "hole" that gets filled first when you take new cyberware. The net
effect is almost the same, though, except for stuff that's actually based on
your Essence (like Heal spell TNs).

> oh Also, this mailing list helps me alot as a new Shadowrun GM,

That's what we're here for :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Little ever changes, if anything at all
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Two cyberware questions
Date: Mon Jul 1 06:20:02 2002
In a message dated 6/30/2002 7:33:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bandwidthoracle@***.com writes:

> and does uninstalling grant the person his essence back so that they
> may install other pecies of cyberware?

I can field this one, at least. No, it doesn't. Also upgrading cyberware to a
better grade doesn't restore essence. The loss comes from the surgery itself,
as far as I recall - at least I think that was the official explanation. Not
sure on the reason but I know the rule. Pretty sure that should be in
SR3...okay, page 45 has the reason at the start of the second paragraph of
the Cyberware heading. Couldn't find where it says you can't get cyberware
back but I know this to be a rule - just can't remember where I read it.
Could be either in Shadowtech or Cybertechnology (I don't have Man & Machine,
but you may check there also).
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Keith Duthie)
Subject: Two cyberware questions
Date: Mon Jul 1 08:50:01 2002
On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Gurth wrote:

> It has always been 1, 3 and 5 points, so with 13 years and two editions to
> correct this, it's unlikely to have been a mistake. Perhaps part of the

That would be 2, 3, and 5 points.

> IMHO that depends on the item and GM's discretion. It's specifically
> mentioned that boosted reflexes can't be removed or upgraded, so that's one

Where is it specifically mentioned that boosted reflexes can't be
upgraded? Certainly they can't be removed, but I'm fairly sure they should
be upgradable.

--
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing for money.
http://users.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Two cyberware questions
Date: Mon Jul 1 09:55:03 2002
ra002585@***.unicamp.br
> I can field this one, at least. No, it doesn't. Also upgrading cyberware to a
> better grade doesn't restore essence. The loss comes from the surgery itself,
> as far as I recall - at least I think that was the official explanation. Not
> sure on the reason but I know the rule. Pretty sure that should be in
> SR3...okay, page 45 has the reason at the start of the second paragraph of
> the Cyberware heading. Couldn't find where it says you can't get cyberware
> back but I know this to be a rule - just can't remember where I read it.
> Could be either in Shadowtech or Cybertechnology (I don't have Man & Machine,
> but you may check there also).

This appeared originally in Shadowtech, and then in M&M. If a character
removes his cyberware, he doesn't get his Essence back, but he can install
new pieces in the "hole" left by the old ones. For a more hopeles setting,
you can say new cyber always eats away at your Essence (i.e., there's no
hole to fill).

--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowland.com.br
-- Redator da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
ICQ # 4055455
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Two cyberware questions
Date: Mon Jul 1 13:45:01 2002
According to Keith Duthie, on Mon, 01 Jul 2002 the word on the street was...

> > It has always been 1, 3 and 5 points
>
> That would be 2, 3, and 5 points.

Yep -- that was a typo :)

> Where is it specifically mentioned that boosted reflexes can't be
> upgraded? Certainly they can't be removed, but I'm fairly sure they
> should be upgradable.

Street Samurai Catalog, p. 87: "Boosted Reflexes cannot be upgraded." When
checking the SR3 rule, though, I just now discovered that that line has
been replaced by one that says they can't be _removed_. I must have been
remembering a combination of the two...

(FWIW, back in the SR1/2 days, I interpreted the "cannot be upgraded" rule
as meaning that you couldn't get a better rating of boosted reflexes
without totally removing the current system, whereas we did allow upgrading
of other cyberware by only paying the difference in Essence and nuyen.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Little ever changes, if anything at all
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Two cyberware questions
Date: Tue Jul 2 05:25:00 2002
>From: Eric Bergstrom <bandwidthoracle@***.com>
>I have two questions about Cyberware.
>First don't the essences costs for VCRs seem rather high?
>It seems that there are far more intrusive peices of cyberware,
>that consume less essence. Is it suppose to be .1, .3, .5 essence?

OK, ok, one at a time here! Essence is often missunderstood (IMHO) as being
a measure of the size of the hunk of silicon someone is implanting into you,
the amount of your tissue they have to remove to make room...
I have always seen essence as something else, a measure of how "in control"
you are over your own body. When you think about the way a VCR works the
essence costs suddenly make sense. You can't exchange your body for that of
your car without some sort of comeback!

>Also, from my understanding dosen't rating 4 move by wire kill the
>person it is installed in? how can you loose more than 6 essence,
>barring cybermancy?

IIRC the essence cost for MBW 4 is 7 correct? upgrade that to alphaware and
it becomes 5.6 (a close squeeze but survivable) betaware or deltaware are
other options, remember just because it's in the book doesn't mean PCs have
access to it!

>For a finaly question can cyberware be unistalled?
>and does uninstalling grant the person his essence back so that they
>may install other pecies of cyberware?

I've always played it as leaving an essence "hole" which can be filled with
additional cyberware or will heal eventually, in other words their essence
stays the same but installing new cyberware doesn't "cost". If they don't
install new cyberware I eventually forget that they've got the "hole" and it
heals over, bringing their actual essence up to the "new" level.

_________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Keith Duthie)
Subject: Two cyberware questions
Date: Tue Jul 2 09:00:01 2002
On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Lone Eagle wrote:

> I've always played it as leaving an essence "hole" which can be filled with
> additional cyberware or will heal eventually, in other words their essence
> stays the same but installing new cyberware doesn't "cost". If they don't
> install new cyberware I eventually forget that they've got the "hole" and
it
> heals over, bringing their actual essence up to the "new" level.

By canon rules, essense doesn't come back, and installing new cyber takes
your essense even lower. There is a surgical *option* in M&M that lets you
fill up an essense hole with new cyberware, but it's not done by default.

--
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing for money.
http://users.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Two cyberware questions
Date: Tue Jul 2 09:30:01 2002
>From: Keith Duthie <psycho@*********.co.nz>
>On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Lone Eagle wrote:
>
> > I've always played it as leaving an essence "hole" which can be filled

>with
> > additional cyberware or will heal eventually, in other words their
>essence
> > stays the same but installing new cyberware doesn't "cost". If they
>don't
> > install new cyberware I eventually forget that they've got the "hole"
>and it
> > heals over, bringing their actual essence up to the "new" level.
>
>By canon rules, essense doesn't come back, and installing new cyber takes
>your essense even lower. There is a surgical *option* in M&M that lets you
>fill up an essense hole with new cyberware, but it's not done by default.

I started with the "essence hole" thing when one of my players wanted to
upgrade the eyes he'd taken at creation (standard grade) with betagrade. It
didn't seem logical for the new eyes to suck in more essence so I did the
essence "hole". Later I forgot all about it and I was going through
character sheets making sure everyone had calced their essence correctly and
spent all the karma they thought they had...etc and I totted this guy's
essence up and adjusted the value, he did bring it to my attention but by
that time...
So maybe I'm just not in such a hopeless world as cannon might have it, or
maybe I just make up for it elsewhere.

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