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Message no. 1
From: Fastjack <uc298@*****.UNICAN.ES>
Subject: Re: unarmed
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 16:01:40 +0100
>
> > I have the second edition of shadowrun (the first publicated in
> > spanish),and of course the "old rules"as dodge dissapears.But after
look
> > many web pages,i found tons of rules about martial arts,and i dont know
> > what is a counterattack,dodge...I find that rules useless,because the
> > best action is always an opposed roll to attack (why i need to avoid an
> > attack when i can avoid it and hit my opponent?).
> >
> [trim]
> > Anybody understand my question??*SMILES*
> >
> I think i can guess the problem. But i'm not sure.
>
> You seem to be wondering why someone would not counter attack in
> Melee in SR.
>
> Well they sould always roll their skill or default attribute to do so.
> Allocation of combat pool however is more complex.
> If defending (hand to hand, or armed)
> you may
> spend combat pool on the melee skill OR on full dodge (or body soak
> if you fail to dodge)
> Therefore it is sometimes better to roll minimal dice in
> parry/counter attack if you are not very good at it and save your
> combat pool to dodge (i.e. parry with an armoured part of your body,
> so although you 'get hit' you don't get hurt) and hope the target
> number on the dice 'power level - armour' is lower than your melee
> roll target number.
>
> As to the initative 26 and 12 guys, yes the one going in 26 gets two
> attacks first, the poor guy going in 13 can defend both times (yes
> thats two free defense actions) but has to split his combat pool
> between these two attacks while the guy acting in 26 will have his
> pool refreshed in 16 ready for his second attack.
>
> This is less than perfect, but after a long discussion around 2
> months (i think) ago no one really has an easy and good solution that
> everyone likes.
>
> Mark
>
Thank you for your answer,but i may say more:
-About the initiative 26 and 13 guys...how do you resolve the actions?
Because it can be useless be the most quickly,because:
Imagine initiative 26 and 17:The first is very quickly,so he attacks
first allocating all the combat pool he can to the attack.The other do
the same:Unarmed dices+combat pool...but the problem is now:Moment
17...the first hasnt the combat pool,because until the 16 he dont
regenerates it.So the guy who has the 17 initiative plays with
adventage,because he has his combat pool refreshed...

And about counterattack...In my campaigns,well...all the players has a
high skills,so is better allocate all the dices to the opposed test,and
then i can fit all the martial arts rules...:-( I haver a big problem!!:-)

Can you write here an example of a typical unarmed combat assault between
2 characters??I think i understand it better so.

And another question,where are the Ambidextrous rules?in the Fields of
fire?how works?

Thank you!! *a desperado master*
Message no. 2
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: unarmed -Reply
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:15:54 -0500
Fastjack wrote:
> Imagine initiative 26 and 17:The first is very quickly,so he attacks first
>allocating all the combat pool he can to the attack.The other do the
>same:Unarmed dices+combat pool...but the problem is now:Moment
>17...the first hasnt the combat pool,because until the 16 he dont regenerates
>it.So the guy who has the 17 initiative plays with adventage,because he has his
>combat pool refreshed...

If you win initiative 26 to 17, the best strategy isn't to spend all your dice on the
FIRST attack of the round, but the LAST. When you attack in phase 6, spend all
your dice on offense, because it's a reasonable gamble that you will act first
NEXT round.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 3
From: A Halliwell <u5a77@**.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: unarmed
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:17:14 +0100
|Thank you for your answer,but i may say more:
|-About the initiative 26 and 13 guys...how do you resolve the actions?
|Because it can be useless be the most quickly,because:
| Imagine initiative 26 and 17:The first is very quickly,so he attacks
|first allocating all the combat pool he can to the attack.The other do
|the same:Unarmed dices+combat pool...but the problem is now:Moment
|17...the first hasnt the combat pool,because until the 16 he dont
|regenerates it.So the guy who has the 17 initiative plays with
|adventage,because he has his combat pool refreshed...

Exactly.
The combat pool should be used strategically.
If someone on a high initiative uses his whole pool in an attack, then he
deserves to get blown apart when he knows someone's likely to attack before
he can react....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk | |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:-| "THAT WOULD BE AN ECCLESIASTICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!!|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Fastjack <uc298@*****.UNICAN.ES>
Subject: Re: unarmed -Reply
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 16:27:14 +0100
On Wed, 23 Oct 1996, Mike Elkins wrote:

> Fastjack wrote:
> > Imagine initiative 26 and 17:The first is very quickly,so he attacks first
> >allocating all the combat pool he can to the attack.The other do the
> >same:Unarmed dices+combat pool...but the problem is now:Moment
> >17...the first hasnt the combat pool,because until the 16 he dont regenerates
> >it.So the guy who has the 17 initiative plays with adventage,because he has his
> >combat pool refreshed...
>
> If you win initiative 26 to 17, the best strategy isn't to spend all your dice on the
> FIRST attack of the round, but the LAST. When you attack in phase 6, spend all
> your dice on offense, because it's a reasonable gamble that you will act first
> NEXT round.
>
> Double-Domed Mike
>
OK,but the other can spend all his reserve with the attack in the 27
moment,because he after(16) refresh all the dices,and the another no.So
probably 17 moment will be fundamental,and perhaps the 26 initiative die
in that moment
Message no. 5
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: unarmed -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:50:56 -0500
>> If you win initiative 26 to 17, the best strategy isn't to spend all your dice on
the
>> FIRST attack of the round, but the LAST. When you attack in phase 6, spend
all
>> your dice on offense, because it's a reasonable gamble that you will act first
>> NEXT round.
>>
>> Double-Domed Mike
>>
> OK,but the other can spend all his reserve with the attack in the 27
>moment,because he after(16) refresh all the dices,and the another no.So
>probably 17 moment will be fundamental,and perhaps the 26 initiative die in that
>moment

It took me a bit to understand what you meant but now I do. I see your point. Let
me elaborate for others:

On phase 26, the fast samurai has to reserve some of his dice because the
slower samurai will get an attack (in phase 17) before his pool refresh again (in
phase 16). On the other hand, the slower samurai can counterattack in PHASE
26 and spend his entire pool safely! This means the slower samurai has a
significant advantage!

Perhaps the best tactic is for the fast samurai to delay his action until the slower
samurai has declared his attack, then attack first. I don't have the rulebook with
me, but don't dice pools get used when the action is DECLARED? Therefore, the
slower samurai must split his dice just like the faster one, and the faster one will
get the advantage in the second turn of combat.

This reminds me of the Japanese sword duels in which the object is to strike after
your opponent has commited to strike but before his blow lands...

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 6
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: unarmed -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 11:53:38 -0400
Mike Elkins wrote:

<Snip of original post>

> It took me a bit to understand what you meant but now I do. I see your point. Let
> me elaborate for others:

I was *just* about to reply when I received your post....good, this
saved me some typing. ;)

> On phase 26, the fast samurai has to reserve some of his dice because the
> slower samurai will get an attack (in phase 17) before his pool refresh again (in
> phase 16). On the other hand, the slower samurai can counterattack in PHASE
> 26 and spend his entire pool safely! This means the slower samurai has a
> significant advantage!

Exactly....it would seem like a flaw in the logic that those who act
first have the advantage, because they don't...at least not in the case
of Unarmed Combat and counter attacking.

> Perhaps the best tactic is for the fast samurai to delay his action until the slower
> samurai has declared his attack, then attack first. I don't have the rulebook with
> me, but don't dice pools get used when the action is DECLARED? Therefore, the
> slower samurai must split his dice just like the faster one, and the faster one will
> get the advantage in the second turn of combat.

I don't have my rulebooks handy, so could someone tell me if you are
officially allowed to attack *first* when holding an action and deciding
to use that action when your opponent declares their attack? Wait a
minute. That doesn't matter! They can be attacking at the same time,
and it makes no difference....okay, now that I have thought that out for
all of you to see inside my head (scarey, isn't it?), I think I
understand better.

Basically, the faster samurai holds his action until his opponent
declares that he is attacking. The faster samurai then declares that he
is counterattacking with the held action. The slower sam must be
careful with his combat pool dice, because he must resist another
possible attack from the faster samurai before his combat pool dice
refresh. However, the faster samurai can use all his combat pool dice
to counterattack, and then can use some of his (newly refreshed) combat
pool dice on his next action (in this case, on 17).

Cool. That works for me. The rulebooks discuss rules, not strategy, I
guess. ;)

> This reminds me of the Japanese sword duels in which the object is to strike after
> your opponent has commited to strike but before his blow lands...

Yeah, it looks like that is a wise tactic for all SR unarmed styles...

> Double-Domed Mike

--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 7
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: unarmed -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 16:35:21 -0600
Mike Elkins wrote:
|
|Perhaps the best tactic is for the fast samurai to delay his action
until the slower |samurai has declared his attack, then attack first.
I don't have the rulebook with |me, but don't dice pools get used when
the action is DECLARED? Therefore, the |slower samurai must split his
dice just like the faster one, and the faster one will |get the
advantage in the second turn of combat. | |This reminds me of the
Japanese sword duels in which the object is to strike after |your
opponent has commited to strike but before his blow lands... |

Here's a house rule. On the first turn of combat only,
characters do not have access to their dice pools until
their initiative comes up.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 8
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: unarmed -Reply -Reply
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 08:51:58 GMT
oops, this was supposed to end up here the first time, sorry Mike
you'll get two copies.

> Mike Elkins writes
>
> > > OK,but the other can spend all his reserve with the attack in the 27
> > >moment,because he after(16) refresh all the dices,and the another no.So
> > >probably 17 moment will be fundamental,and perhaps the 26 initiative die in
that
> > >moment
> >
> > It took me a bit to understand what you meant but now I do. I see your point.
Let
> > me elaborate for others:
> >
> > On phase 26, the fast samurai has to reserve some of his dice because the
> > slower samurai will get an attack (in phase 17) before his pool refresh again
(in
> > phase 16). On the other hand, the slower samurai can counterattack in PHASE
> > 26 and spend his entire pool safely! This means the slower samurai has a
> > significant advantage!
> >
> correct, the first round because everyone starts with their pools
> refreshed. Later rounds its not a problem but as the first hit is the
> one that counts this doesn't help all too often.
>
> > Perhaps the best tactic is for the fast samurai to delay his action until the
slower
> > samurai has declared his attack, then attack first.
> yes, his second attack though will now be 10 initatives after when he
> takes the held action.
>
> > I don't have the rulebook with
> > me, but don't dice pools get used when the action is DECLARED?
> They are used when you take the action, they refresh at 'reac
> inifinity' at the initative you act in.
>
> > Therefore, the
> > slower samurai must split his dice just like the faster one, and the faster one
will
> > get the advantage in the second turn of combat.
> >
> Correct.
> Both now act in 17, after both their dice pools have refreshed, and
> in 7, both dice pools refresh, higher reac sammie acts, lower reac
> sammie acts. Next round the faster one has the advantage.
>
> > This reminds me of the Japanese sword duels in which the object is to strike
after
> > your opponent has commited to strike but before his blow lands...
> >
> > Double-Domed Mike
> >
>
> Mark
>
Message no. 9
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: unarmed
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:12:53 +0100
On Wed, 23 Oct 1996, Fastjack wrote:

> Imagine initiative 26 and 17:The first is very quickly,so he attacks
> first allocating all the combat pool he can to the attack.The other do
> the same:Unarmed dices+combat pool...but the problem is now:Moment
> 17...the first hasnt the combat pool,because until the 16 he dont
> regenerates it.So the guy who has the 17 initiative plays with
> adventage,because he has his combat pool refreshed...
This problem only occurs on the first round of action and can be easily
overcome by the first character delaying his action so the other character
moves first, of course that character can delay as well. This is basically
the process of sizing up the opponent and works best when initiatives are
only known by the GM :)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Life is a choice, Death....an obligation."-Me
Shadowrun WWW site at http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun

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