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Message no. 1
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:49:16 -0500
Here's a question:
What do you do with the Unarmed Combat skill? As I understand it,
you can concentrate in a particular Martial Arts form, and then Specialize
in a particular throw or move.

Since all you pretty much lose out on is Subduing Combat, all my players
rushed to choose a Martial Arts form.

Now I could study this, and find which forms are more effective against
others, and generate a few house rules, but what did FASA expect? This guy
knows jui-jitsu(sp) and this one Twae Kwon Do. What's the difference?

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 2
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:03:54 -0500
> Now I could study this, and find which forms are more effective against
> others, and generate a few house rules, but what did FASA expect? This
guy
> knows jui-jitsu(sp) and this one Twae Kwon Do. What's the difference?

Asking what martial art is the best is about as good a way to get flamed as
asking about woodchucks! :-)

IMO, it all boils down to flavor and roleplaying.
I invariable concentrate my martial artists into a spec. MA, and then one
maneuver.
Trying to be able to use that maneuver can be tough though.

If you're VERY good with punches, then you will be at a disadvantage when
your hands are tied.

As far as flavor goes . . . which would you rather do?
Punch the Humanis Policlub member?
Or throw a High Cross Body Block at him?

(Hey Fro, I managed to sneak in a pro-wrestling reference! DO get some sort
of bonus? Maybe . . . an Anti-THWAP?)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com./users/bluewizard
"It's your favorite! Applesauce and medecine!"
Message no. 3
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 03:09:07 -0500
>> knows jui-jitsu(sp) and this one Twae Kwon Do. What's the difference?
>
>Asking what martial art is the best is about as good a way to get flamed as
>asking about woodchucks! :-)

I'm NOT asking which is better! Please don't Thwap me! :)

I'm asking what the game difference is....FASA hasn't provided diddly-squat.
Why should or shouldn't my runners take this?

(Diddly-squat is a technical unit, somewhat smaller than Dingus, and larger
than jack-diddly)

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 4
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:17:28 -0500
> I'm asking what the game difference is....FASA hasn't provided
diddly-squat.
> Why should or shouldn't my runners take this?

There really isn't any.
Unless you intend to do a lot of subduing combat, or don't want to worry
about be at a disadvantage if your form is inappropriate for the situation
then you really should pick a martial art form.

This IMO, is also realistic.
The best fighters in the world aren't jack of all trades unarmed combat
specs.
They're the dedicated masters that have studied one form and mastered it.

Game difference - nil.
Roleplaying difference - major.

A runner who has no time for anything but runs and partying shouldn't be a
martial arts expert.
Likewise a master sensei in Kung Fu probably won't be a big time runner
IMO.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com./users/bluewizard
"It's your favorite! Applesauce and medecine!"
Message no. 5
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:42:48 EST
On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:49:16 -0500 Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:
>Here's a question:
>What do you do with the Unarmed Combat skill? As I understand it,
>you can concentrate in a particular Martial Arts form, and then
Specialize
>in a particular throw or move.
>
>Since all you pretty much lose out on is Subduing Combat, all my players
>rushed to choose a Martial Arts form.
>
>Now I could study this, and find which forms are more effective against
>others, and generate a few house rules, but what did FASA expect?
>This guy knows jui-jitsu(sp) and this one Twae Kwon Do. What's the
difference?
>
>-=SwiftOne=-
>

Well, unless you know about the particular art (and I don't), my best
guess would be... ..spelling.

(oh, and the kinds of moves you learn and specialize in..)

~Tim
p.s. one of my physads, a tried and true purist, went for 'boxing'...
Message no. 6
From: BulletShower <nmatausc@****.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:23:53 +1000
Said Steven A. Tinner :

> As far as flavor goes . . . which would you rather do?
> Punch the Humanis Policlub member?
> Or throw a High Cross Body Block at him?

[excited, slightly high-pitched voice]
Do you see that, Jim? It's unbelievable!
[excited bass]
Yeah, Tony, this is what it is! Look - Dark D. Dunkelzahn's on his
feet again! No! He rolls back into the ring! YES! YES! This Drake guy
made it! A swinging neckbreaker! Perfect!
[Drake gets the crowd going, climbs the turnbuckle]
What's Drake doing? What's he doing, Jim?
[calm bass]
If I was him, I wouldn't spend too much time w...
[Dunkelzahn jumps onto Drake]
[high-pitched voice]
Noooooooo! Noooooo!
[bass]
A top rope superplex! Good lord, he's done it again! That one hurt!
[high-pitched voice]
The referee's counting! One, two, thr.... kickout!
[...]



:) BulletShower
______________________________________________________________________
"Gott wuerfelt nicht" (A. Einstein)
For More information on diceless roleplaying and own Shadowrun stuff,
jack into http://www.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~nmatausc
Message no. 7
From: Kevin White <kevw@*****.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:02:04 -0600
Brett Borger wrote:

> I'm asking what the game difference is....FASA hasn't provided diddly-squat.
> Why should or shouldn't my runners take this?
>

Weeelllll... you could sit down and analyze each martial art using
various sytems and draw up a table giving bonuses between styles or
manouvers (sp?)...


oorrr...


You could let your players beat people up! If they want to be flashy and
acrobatic, let them specialise in wushu and acrobatics. If they want to
be the hard-as-nails-no-nonsense-cool-dude let them do street fighting
or kyukushinkai (mad, scary b*****ds IMO ;)). If they want to be the non
confrontational, step-out-of-the-way-of-that-big-troll-fist type,
aikido. If they want to jump up and down and swing their legs around,
tae kwon do.

In short (*TOO LATE*) I think that if they want to fight in a particular
way (and can justify it) let them. You can always find out about
particular styles by asking on the martial arts newsgroups. I think the
only stipulation is that they don't abuse your kind-hearted generosity.
If they do, take steps to learn the style their character professes to
follow and show the player directly why as an aikidoka he cannot "smack
that block in the gob!" ;)



Diamond

As a disclaimer, I do not mean to demean any of the martial arts
mentioned and if you feel I have done so, I apologize.
Message no. 8
From: BulletShower <nmatausc@****.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:11:55 +1000
Said Kevin White <kevw@*****.CO.UK>:

> If they want to
> be the hard-as-nails-no-nonsense-cool-dude let them do street fighting
> or kyukushinkai (mad, scary b*****ds IMO ;)).
^^^^^^^^^^^
Hey! Thanks a lot! ;)



:)
BulletShower
______________________________________________________________________
"Gott wuerfelt nicht" (A. Einstein)
For More information on diceless roleplaying and own Shadowrun stuff,
jack into http://www.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~nmatausc
Message no. 9
From: Kevin White <kevw@*****.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:16:13 -0600
BulletShower wrote:
> > If they want to
> > be the hard-as-nails-no-nonsense-cool-dude let them do street fighting
> > or kyukushinkai (mad, scary b*****ds IMO ;)).
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
> Hey! Thanks a lot! ;)
>
I did remember, but this is more fun than doing a ping on the listserv!
;)

Diamond
Message no. 10
From: Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:36:59 -0800
Brett Borger wrote:
>
> Here's a question:
> What do you do with the Unarmed Combat skill? As I understand it,
> you can concentrate in a particular Martial Arts form, and then Specialize
> in a particular throw or move.
>
> Since all you pretty much lose out on is Subduing Combat, all my players
> rushed to choose a Martial Arts form.
>
> Now I could study this, and find which forms are more effective against
> others, and generate a few house rules, but what did FASA expect? This guy
> knows jui-jitsu(sp) and this one Twae Kwon Do. What's the difference?
>
> -=SwiftOne=-

My opinion is don't let them take martial arts that you and they aren't
familiar with, if you want get a copy of Ninjas and Superspies, maybe
even mystic china (both by paladium, and very fun for an evening of
munchie style butt kicking), they give a very diverrse and reasonable
treament. Frankly I don't worry about specifics as much as overalls,
ex. my last character had hands razors, did he conc in cyber imp weap,
hell no (how do you learn that, I only had one weapon, and it's not like
they're similar) so I went with a claw style kung fu(tiger to be exact),
general for most things, conc for hand strikes, spec for claw strikes.
As to the some arts, frankly Jui-Jitsu (whatever works) is so diverse
that I would consider it general not a conc (only leaving out flying
maneuvers), TKD is a very common art that uses agressive hand and foot
strikes, not many holds and such, (but does go airborne). Basically if
your player can't come up with a reason that his conc would help don't
let him use it
Message no. 11
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:32:23 GMT
Brett Borger writes

> Here's a question:
> What do you do with the Unarmed Combat skill? As I understand it,
> you can concentrate in a particular Martial Arts form, and then Specialize
> in a particular throw or move.
>
Yes you can.

> Since all you pretty much lose out on is Subduing Combat, all my players
> rushed to choose a Martial Arts form.
>
> Now I could study this, and find which forms are more effective against
> others, and generate a few house rules, but what did FASA expect? This guy
> knows jui-jitsu(sp) and this one Twae Kwon Do. What's the difference?
>
FASA basically leave it up to the GM and players to know what they
are talking about.

My ruling is 'you cannot as the GM does not know enough'. Basically
if both the GM and player know enough about the art in question so
are aware of the likely times it won't work all well and good.
General SR unarmed assumes you have street type practice (used to
hurting, lots of dirty tricks) or have studied at least a couple of
martial arts that suplement each others weaknesses, so can use the
form most appropriate to the situation.

Generally unless you know enough to understand where the
concentration in ...... is going to be worth less than the general
skill i sugest charging full rates and saying 'my characers is using'
and describe your moves to suit for dramatic effect.
Aimed shots to the head are +4 but i will describe deadly wounds with
several stagings past as lopping the guys head off, kicking him in
the throat etc. A bit if dramatic licence makes things more
interesting than just saying 'yes you killed him' (poor guy)

Mark
Message no. 12
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:18:29 +0000
On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Brett Borger wrote:

> Now I could study this, and find which forms are more effective against
> others, and generate a few house rules, but what did FASA expect? This guy
> knows jui-jitsu(sp) and this one Twae Kwon Do. What's the difference?
Well <shameless plug> you could get one of the martial arts rule systems
off the net, my page has an example of one such system </shameless plug>.

My basic way of preventing players abusing specialising in MA is to state
that a martial art mainly concentrates on strikes or grappling and to do
the opposite the character must revert to the basic skill. This isn't
technically correct but it works for game balance. I also limit the basic
techniques you can use with the MA i.e. Karate doesn't teach you how to
perform a Glaswegian Handshake for example :)


The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 13
From: Jose Vicente Mondejar Brell <jomonbre@[158.42.9.19]>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:24:07 +0000
[Snip unimportant-for-me info]
> be the hard-as-nails-no-nonsense-cool-dude let them do street fighting
> or kyukushinkai (mad, scary b*****ds IMO ;)). If they want to be the non
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ehem... should I say thank you? (or would you expect me hitting your
face with my knuckles?) :)

Just kidding, no offense taken. I'm aware that there are people who
behave that way, and give us a bad rep.

And I think it is kyokushinkai (not kyuku...), from a
13-year-experience :)

> Diamond
>
> As a disclaimer, I do not mean to demean any of the martial arts
> mentioned and if you feel I have done so, I apologize.

As I've said, no offense taken :)

--
Monde-the-I've-been-practicing-KyokuShinKai-for-13-years-
-but-still-pacifist-:)
Message no. 14
From: Greg <ghacke@******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:01:11 -0500
On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, The Digital Mage wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Brett Borger wrote:
>
> > Now I could study this, and find which forms are more effective against
> > others, and generate a few house rules, but what did FASA expect? This guy
> > knows jui-jitsu(sp) and this one Twae Kwon Do. What's the difference?
> Well <shameless plug> you could get one of the martial arts rule systems
> off the net, my page has an example of one such system </shameless plug>.
>
> My basic way of preventing players abusing specialising in MA is to state
> that a martial art mainly concentrates on strikes or grappling and to do
> the opposite the character must revert to the basic skill. This isn't
> technically correct but it works for game balance. I also limit the basic
> techniques you can use with the MA i.e. Karate doesn't teach you how to
> perform a Glaswegian Handshake for example :)
>
>
> The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
> "So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
> Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html

I avoid all the trouble of having these complex martial arts styles. I
figure, it's 2057 and my players are "shadowrunners," not what you would
call people raised in the lap of luxury(in most cases). I figure thier
exposure to "true" martial arts forms is quite limited, so we opted to
describe what you learned. Heck, if I'm raised in the 'plex and live in
a diverse neighborhood, I can expect to see everything from savate to
karate on any given afternoon. So why choose one style, just decide on
what that character likes to di. If he kicks, give him some kicks,
doesnt matter what style, if he likes it he must have taken the time to
learn it, wether from a turkish "krula"<sp?> or a jujitsu master.

*+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
| Sir, I admit to your general rule, | Gregory C. Hacke |
| That every poet is a fool. | hacke.2@***.edu |
| | ghacke@******.edu |
| But you, yourself go to show it, | |
| Not every fool is a Poet. | Check out my web pages at this url: |
| - S.T. Coleridge | http://www.mville.edu/~ghacke/ |
*+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
Message no. 15
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:30:09 -0500
>My opinion is don't let them take martial arts that you and they aren't
>familiar with, if you want get a copy of Ninjas and Superspies, maybe

The problem tends to be their opinions differ with mine. Then the players
start debating among each other about which is "better", and I can kiss a
productive evening good bye.

I have looked at the book in the past for this exact reason, and was MOST
UNIMPRESSED. 32 varieties of "a
martial-art-that-fools-opponents-by-rolling-around-and (barking, drooling,
staggering, etc)-and-luring-them-into-a-false-sense-of-security." Hardly
helpful.

>munchie style butt kicking), they give a very diverrse and reasonable
>treament. Frankly I don't worry about specifics as much as overalls,

See above.

What I have finally decided to do is let them take whatever they want, and
tell me ONE distinguishing characteristic (focuses on punches, kicks, is
reactive, etc) and play it as normal Unarmed Combat UNTIL something comes
along that hits a weakness determined by the characteristic above.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 16
From: Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:04:00 MST
>What I have finally decided to do is let them take whatever they want, and
>tell me ONE distinguishing characteristic (focuses on punches, kicks, is
>reactive, etc) and play it as normal Unarmed Combat UNTIL something comes
>along that hits a weakness determined by the characteristic above.
>
>-=SwiftOne=-

I agree, that's in the spirit of the rules. If you take a concentration in
a certain style, then that style is going to be good at something and bad at
something else. If it is a perfectly well-rounded style, then it is not a
concentration, but part of the general skill.

If you want to take a style that specializes in punches and kicks, then the
concentration applies to attacking. When you are on the defense, you use
your general skill rating (which will be lower).

And in any case, if someone attacks you using grappling combat, or weapon
implant combat, you don't know how to deal with it because your
concentration is in martial arts, and your opponent is not using that
concentration. So you have to use your general skill to fight this
opponent. The same would go for your opponent if he is concentrated in
implant weaponry.

When you concentrate in a skill, you get better in some areas and not in
others.

Look at the rules for the magic pool and magical skills in Awakening for the
idea. I don't know a whole lot about martial arts, and I don't have to.
Just use the basic idea of concentration in a skill.

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com
Message no. 17
From: Ivan Cappiello <conan@**.COM.AU>
Subject: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 16:49:39 -0000
I am wondering about this skill? Why wouldn't you specialise in some form of
martial arts? I mean you can use unarmed combat and pay full price or you
can specialise and pay a lot less. This no benefit in having just unarmed
combat.
Message no. 18
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 16:54:50 +1000
Ivan Cappiello writes:
> I am wondering about this skill? Why wouldn't you specialise in
> some form of
> martial arts? I mean you can use unarmed combat and pay full price or you
> can specialise and pay a lot less. This no benefit in having just unarmed
> combat.

Which is why it's recommended that you don't let your players specialise in
a form of martial arts unless you know enough about it's strengths and
weaknesses so that you can introduce a tradeoff. If the martial art is broad
enough not to have any particular weaknesses, then the player can pay the
full unarmed combat cost.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 19
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 03:14:32 EDT
In a message dated 98-10-14 02:51:48 EDT, you write:

<< I am wondering about this skill? Why wouldn't you specialise in some form
of
martial arts? I mean you can use unarmed combat and pay full price or you
can specialise and pay a lot less. This no benefit in having just unarmed
combat. >>

Maybe not from a <cough>munchkin</cough> point of view, but from a role
playing point of view it would represent the sort of person who is a dabler,
and knows techniques from many different styles of martial arts and barroom
brawling rather than knowing one well. And barroom brawling / streetfighting
would be legitamate alternate specializations for unarmed combat as well as a
specific type of martial arts, as both of these have very different techniques
and styles compared to the martial arts.

So, for those who wonder, we have:

Unarmed combat: Brawling, boxing, wrestling, Martial arts form.

(On second thought, compared to everything else, Streetfighting and brawling
are close enough in style to lump them together. And no, I don't mean WWF
style wrestling here either. Thats brawling + acting .)

Any other suggestions for this?
Message no. 20
From: Ron Clark <rclark@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:29:14 -0500
>Maybe not from a <cough>munchkin</cough> point of view, but from a role
>playing point of view it would represent the sort of person who is a dabler,
>and knows techniques from many different styles of martial arts and barroom
>brawling rather than knowing one well. And barroom brawling / streetfighting
>would be legitamate alternate specializations for unarmed combat as well as a
>specific type of martial arts, as both of these have very different
techniques
>and styles compared to the martial arts.
>
>So, for those who wonder, we have:
>
>Unarmed combat: Brawling, boxing, wrestling, Martial arts form.
>
>(On second thought, compared to everything else, Streetfighting and brawling
>are close enough in style to lump them together. And no, I don't mean WWF
>style wrestling here either. Thats brawling + acting .)
>
>Any other suggestions for this?

You could even narrow it down to specific techniques. Between brawling and
boxing you could have the "Holyfield" technical style of boxing (punch,
punch, counter) or the "Tyson" style (punch, punch, hammer, pound, bite),
the difference between technical evasive fighting and full blown slaughter.
Wrestling may also have that distinction between a hard style or a soft
style. And then there are the multitudes of Martial arts. The problem of
incorporating styles in unarmed combat (as someone said before) is that
unless you know enough to create advantages and disadvantages, the
character is getting a free point. There is a major difference between
Tae-Kwon-Do and Aikido.
The first question is how could you distinguish the styles relative to the
game mechanics? You could say one style has a +1 to attacks and a -1 to
defense, one style has a +1 to defense but does less damage, or you could
distinguish the styles by special manuvers (Aikido has wrist locks while
Tae-Kwon-Do could have special jump kicks). To me the game mechanics of
using 6 sided dice limits the flexibility of how far you could work in
specific styles. Changing a target number from a 5 to a 6 is a major
difference. And if you give a bonus and a penalty (like the +1 attack/-1
defense), you may need a TN5 to hit, but the opponant would only need a 3
to defend. All things being equal, who's going to get the most successes,
TN5 or TN3? TN3 ofcourse. Going off the numbers, I don't see much of an
advantage (unless you just have the number of skill dice to make it worth
it) to breaking styles down like that. To me, then, it would seem that the
best way to distinguish styles would be through special manuvers.
The second question would be how useful it would be to distinguish styles.
In a world of magic and weapons, how useful is unarmed combat. Sure there
are the bar room brawls, or you want to take someone alive (and wouldn't
you know it, your Taser batteries weren't Energizer), or you're trying to
escape being butt-naked and weaponless. All of which are GM generated
exceptions, and on the average usually don't occure. I'm not saying
unarmed combat is useless, but I question the usefulness of breaking down
unarmed combat into styles. I doubt it will see much game time. Why waste
the time on that when there is Bioware and Magic to debate. ;-)
It isn't easy to tweak numbers in SR. I know when I tried to fix the
unarmed combat system in SR2, I turned average joe into Bruce Lee with a
vengence. (I later fixed that blunder with a system exactly like the
system in SR3. Great minds must think alike. :-)
What you could do is to break the different styles into manuvers, and
penalties only come when you're doing manuvers outside of your style. For
instance, a boxer isn't going to be able to do a crescent kick and should
have penalties for even trying. Martial artists would have a primary
attack type, like kick, hand strike, or locks. And to deviate from that
type would create penalties. I guess the easiest way to stay that is have
manuvers within that style at the skill of the specialization, but any
attacks outside of that would be the base unarmed combat. So at creation a
character could have a 7 in Kickem-Ass-Fu with primary attacks as kicks,
but for punching would have the base unarmed combat of 5. (6 points into
it, specialization increases by 1, base decreases by 1). And maybe if the
manuver is so repugnant to the style (like the boxer trying to do a
crescent kick) then there could be added penalties of say +1TN to boot.
One thing you have to remember is that one style isn't necessarily better
than another. With all things being equal, two different styles with equal
skill levels, then it should be an even match. There isn't one magical
style that can beat another, only the skilled fighter. So one has to
resist the urge giving particular styles an advantage over another. If
there is an advantage, it should be the manuvers (flying kick, arm locks
taken as a whole) not specific numerical penalties. a D6 is not that
flexible.


Ron
#include disclamer.h
Message no. 21
From: Brian Wong <rook@*****.INFINEX.COM>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 08:04:39 -0700
> > I am wondering about this skill? Why wouldn't you specialise in
> > some form of
> > martial arts? I mean you can use unarmed combat and pay full price or you
> > can specialise and pay a lot less. This no benefit in having just unarmed
> > combat.
>
> Which is why it's recommended that you don't let your players specialise in
> a form of martial arts unless you know enough about it's strengths and
> weaknesses so that you can introduce a tradeoff. If the martial art is broad
> enough not to have any particular weaknesses, then the player can pay the
> full unarmed combat cost.
>
How I would run this is to require the naming of a style for general
unarmed combat. But give no specializing bonus. Unless they publish an extensive
list of different unarmed combat manuevers all with with different game effects,
then a style should have no more effect on the game than a neat name and
something for the characters to bicker philosophy over. It's a 'special effect'.

--
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Message no. 22
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:51:27 EDT
In a message dated 98-10-14 10:30:00 EDT, you write:

<< >Any other suggestions for this?

You could even narrow it down to specific techniques. >>

I think thats a little TOO much, but do like the idea of a martial artist
having to declare what type of form he uses (even something as simple as
Karate vs Tai Kuan Do.)

Game mechanic effects? For someone who specialized, I'd give them a +1 to
their defense roll tn against someone who has a different specalization, to
represent the fact that they are dealin with someone who reacts differently to
an attack than they do. This minimizes number crunching, etc, while giving a
non roleplaying reason not to specialize.
Message no. 23
From: Eric Josue <ejlists@****************.COM>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:15:19 -0600
At 11:51 10/14/98 -0400, Micheal Feeney wrote:

>In a message dated 98-10-14 10:30:00 EDT, you write:
>
><< >Any other suggestions for this?
>
> You could even narrow it down to specific techniques. >>
>
>I think thats a little TOO much, but do like the idea of a martial artist
>having to declare what type of form he uses (even something as simple as
>Karate vs Tai Kuan Do.)
>
>Game mechanic effects? For someone who specialized, I'd give them a +1 to
>their defense roll tn against someone who has a different specalization, to
>represent the fact that they are dealin with someone who reacts differently to
>an attack than they do. This minimizes number crunching, etc, while giving a
>non roleplaying reason not to specialize.


Styles are something that definitely helps in role-playing and game play.
What we've done is this (this is just an example). Character A has a
general Martial Arts 6 Character B has Martial Arts (Aikido): 5 (8) (he's
trained a bit longer :-P)...This is where being familiar with specific
styles comes into play. The two characters face off. Character B
attacks...but only gets 5 dice. This is because Aikido is primarily a
defensive style that uses the attackers own strength against them (I'm
being overly general) and therefore doesn't get his specialization dice. On
the other hand, if Character A attacked character B...Character B would be
able to use the 8 dice since in that phase because in essence he's the
defender. You can specialize to a particular technique like kaitenage (a
throw in Aikido). This may give bonus TNs or something but the style should
be good enough.

Another example is general martial arts vs. Wing Chun. Wing Chun is
designed mainly for close infighting. A general martial artist wouldn't be
as good in cramped spaces as a Wing Chun practitioner. Just a thought :-)


Eric J
Message no. 24
From: John Pederson <pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:39:59 -0400
Ivan Cappiello wrote:
>
> I am wondering about this skill? Why wouldn't you specialise in some form of
> martial arts? I mean you can use unarmed combat and pay full price or you
> can specialise and pay a lot less. This no benefit in having just unarmed
> combat.

Actually, I always thought it made perfect sense:) You will have martial
artists, but from a gaming point of view, you *need* both the player and
the GM to know about the martial art in question before just declaring
it as a specialization. And truthfully, I feel like I could qualify for
a point or maybe (emphasis on maybe) two in Unarmed Combat myself (but
not in any specific style). And before you start wanting to how I figure
*that* one: check the definition associated with skill ratings in the
Companion:)

--
John Pederson, otherwise known as Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Oooooh! Big talk from Mr. Got-All-My-Limbs! 'Look at me! I've got
arms and legs! JERK!" --Sluggy Freelance
------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864/index.html
pedersje@******.rose-hulman.edu lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com
----------------------
"I'm not fifty!" "SPOONMAN!!!" No. 2 -- with a bullet!
Sergeant-at-Arms and Greatest Swordsman of the Frinch Army
Message no. 25
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:19:03 -0400
At 03:14 AM 10-14-98 EDT, Micheal Feeney wrote:
>
>Maybe not from a <cough>munchkin</cough> point of view, but from a role
>playing point of view it would represent the sort of person who is a dabler,
>and knows techniques from many different styles of martial arts and barroom
>brawling rather than knowing one well. And barroom brawling / streetfighting
>would be legitamate alternate specializations for unarmed combat as well as a
>specific type of martial arts, as both of these have very different
techniques
>and styles compared to the martial arts.

<snip>

>Any other suggestions for this?

Well, this has always been one of my pet peeves with the SR system, and
you'd think that after NINE YEARS AND THREE EDITIONS they could have come
up with something better than the "it's really a lot of maneuvering" shtick
THAT SOUNDED LAME IN MY AD&D BOOKS 15 YEARS AGO!!! <ahem> Excuse me.

What I do is have Unarmed Combat skill represent general physical fighting
ability. Then, if somebody wants to study a specific martial arts style, I
have them buy a Special Skill (in SR3 it'd be a Knowledge Skill) of the
style, representing knowledge of the maneuvers, techniques, philosophies,
etc. I then import the maneuvers from Hero System's Ultimate Martial
Artist book, with each maneuver having bonuses and penalties. In order to
use a special maneuver, you have to have a skill in a style that uses that
maneuver. You then get to use a number of dice depending on the lower of
your Unarmed Combat or Martial Arts skill.

This allows you to build Bruce Lee-like characters who have a high Unarmed
Combat skill, then study a variety of styles to gain a lot of moves and
maneuvers. However, you're only as good at a style as your skill with it,
regardless of how much whupass you happen to have on tap.
Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 26
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:35:27 -0400
Starjammer wrote:
>
> Well, this has always been one of my pet peeves with the SR system, and
> you'd think that after NINE YEARS AND THREE EDITIONS they could have come
> up with something better than the "it's really a lot of maneuvering" shtick
> THAT SOUNDED LAME IN MY AD&D BOOKS 15 YEARS AGO!!! <ahem> Excuse me.

How about: "It's really a pain in the butt to get more detailed,
especially in a combat system that's too abstract even to have hit
locations, but for which we already get lots of complaints from new
players that it's too complicated?"


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 27
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:54:25 -0400
On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Eric Josue wrote:

<snip former posts>
->Styles are something that definitely helps in role-playing and game play.
<snip rest>
->
->Another example is general martial arts vs. Wing Chun. Wing Chun is
->designed mainly for close infighting. A general martial artist wouldn't be
->as good in cramped spaces as a Wing Chun practitioner. Just a thought :-)

So, if I am understanding you correctly, an unarmed combat
specialization (any of them) should only allow you the extra dice while in
those situations and those situations can be as varied as the Knowledge
Skills (Fighting larger opponents, defensive only, only while on a
tightrope, only during a full moon, etc.). Given how the other combat
skills are based on a particular 'situation' (meaning you have the weapon
of specialization) this makes perfect sense. Although it removes a few of
the listed specialization, I like this way more.
If you meant something else.... I didn't get it. ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 28
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:57:03 -0400
At 02:35 PM 10-14-98 -0400, you wrote:
>Starjammer wrote:
>>
>> Well, this has always been one of my pet peeves with the SR system, and
>> you'd think that after NINE YEARS AND THREE EDITIONS they could have come
>> up with something better than the "it's really a lot of maneuvering"
shtick
>> THAT SOUNDED LAME IN MY AD&D BOOKS 15 YEARS AGO!!! <ahem> Excuse me.
>
>How about: "It's really a pain in the butt to get more detailed,
>especially in a combat system that's too abstract even to have hit
>locations, but for which we already get lots of complaints from new
>players that it's too complicated?"
>
> - Steve Eley

Ask Hero Games how much people hated the added complexity of their martial
arts sourcebooks. Answer: They didn't; Ninja Hero and Ultimate Martial
Artist are two of the Hero System's most popular sourcebooks by a fair
margin. While realism must always give way to ease of play in a game
system, there are limits. Otherwise 90% of the threads on this list would
never get started.

Some companies, FASA in particular, have a bad habit of just slapping
together a ruling without reality checking it first. Then you get stuff
like the Athletics rules in FoF. Hand to hand combat is an intricate
situation with lots of possibilities, and while you can't model real life
exactly, the least you can do is try to give your players a fair
approximation of the choices open to them.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 29
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 15:00:32 EDT
In a message dated 10/14/98 11:46:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

> snip former posts>
> ->Styles are something that definitely helps in role-playing and game play.
> <snip rest>
> ->
> ->Another example is general martial arts vs. Wing Chun. Wing Chun is
> ->designed mainly for close infighting. A general martial artist wouldn't
be
> ->as good in cramped spaces as a Wing Chun practitioner. Just a thought :-)
>
> So, if I am understanding you correctly, an unarmed combat
> specialization (any of them) should only allow you the extra dice while in
> those situations and those situations can be as varied as the Knowledge
> Skills (Fighting larger opponents, defensive only, only while on a
> tightrope, only during a full moon, etc.). Given how the other combat
> skills are based on a particular 'situation' (meaning you have the weapon
> of specialization) this makes perfect sense. Although it removes a few of
> the listed specialization, I like this way more.
> If you meant something else.... I didn't get it. ]:-)
I can see both ways;
The way you stated which would (in the example given) be like having a skill
"Unarmed combat(close fighting)" and the higher specialization would only work
in that situation

The other way, when fighting using "Wing Chun" you have a bonus for close-in
fighting, but a penalty for when in the open, etc.

I like the first option better actually. You can keep raising a
specialization, but it only applies under specific circumstances, otherwise
you default back to the regualr skill, so you actually still need that skill
at a decent level. Both ways seem to be open to number-crunchers or other
munchie tactics though.
Message no. 30
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:35:11 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:35 PM 10/14/98 -0400, Steve wrote:
>> Well, this has always been one of my pet peeves with the SR system,
and
>> you'd think that after NINE YEARS AND THREE EDITIONS they could
have come
>> up with something better than the "it's really a lot of
maneuvering" shtick
>> THAT SOUNDED LAME IN MY AD&D BOOKS 15 YEARS AGO!!! <ahem> Excuse
me.
>
>How about: "It's really a pain in the butt to get more detailed,
>especially in a combat system that's too abstract even to have hit
>locations, but for which we already get lots of complaints from new
>players that it's too complicated?"

One of these days, I'm going to have to sit down and work on a project
that I've been putting off for a long time: adapting White Wolf's
"World of Darkness: Combat, the Big Book of Beating Ass" into a set of
workable melee rules for Shadowrun.

For those unfamiliar with WoD: Combat, from what I can tell, the book
is White Wolf's attempt to salvage the martial arts system they'd
first developled for their attempt at an entry level RPG, Street
Fighter II RPG. The system is fairly comprehensive, and rather
straightforward, even though it was originally developed for a RPG
based off of Capcom's fighting game.

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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
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Message no. 31
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:09:44 -0400
At 08:35 PM 10-14-98 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>How about: "It's really a pain in the butt to get more detailed,
>>especially in a combat system that's too abstract even to have hit
>>locations, but for which we already get lots of complaints from new
>>players that it's too complicated?"
>
>One of these days, I'm going to have to sit down and work on a project
>that I've been putting off for a long time: adapting White Wolf's
>"World of Darkness: Combat, the Big Book of Beating Ass" into a set of
>workable melee rules for Shadowrun.
>
> -- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)

The guy who did WOD:Combat was the same one who did Hero's Ultimate Martial
Artist, Steve Long. (I don't know whether or not it was based off of SF2.)
He has lots of ideas for improving SR unarmed combat, but I guess the
trick is getting FASA to listen.

And Steve's consistent high quality of work wouldn't hurt FASA's reputation
any, either...

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 32
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:02:50 -0700
:What I do is have Unarmed Combat skill represent general physical
fighting
:ability. Then, if somebody wants to study a specific martial arts style,
I
:have them buy a Special Skill (in SR3 it'd be a Knowledge Skill) of the
:style, representing knowledge of the maneuvers, techniques, philosophies,
:etc. I then import the maneuvers from Hero System's Ultimate Martial
:Artist book, with each maneuver having bonuses and penalties. In order
to
:use a special maneuver, you have to have a skill in a style that uses
that
:maneuver. You then get to use a number of dice depending on the lower of
:your Unarmed Combat or Martial Arts skill.

I wrote up something almost exactly like that for the "Shadowland"
zine #8 (never published- #7 was the last). The skills were "styles" of a
manuever, not specific named manuvers; they worked with any close combat
skill. Once SR3 came out, with knowledge skills, those worked even
better.
The catch in my system was;
a) if using a manuever, the special skill determined combat pool dice
(added to normal skill dice for combat skill) you could use
b) manuever skill level used determined effect (like every 2 "power style"
adding one to attack power)
c) you could only use as many manuever levels as you had unarmed combat
(or armed combat, or, for sr3, the approprite genral combat skill), for
any one test.
The special skills also sometimes had use on thier own, related to
their effect; the "dirty fighting" could also be used for torture, for
example.
It would be on my web page, if it were not such a total mess.

Mongoose
Message no. 33
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:22:11 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:09 PM 10/14/98 -0400, Starjammer wrote:
>>One of these days, I'm going to have to sit down and work on a
project
>>that I've been putting off for a long time: adapting White Wolf's
>>"World of Darkness: Combat, the Big Book of Beating Ass" into a set
of
>>workable melee rules for Shadowrun.

>The guy who did WOD:Combat was the same one who did Hero's Ultimate
Martial
>Artist, Steve Long. (I don't know whether or not it was based off of
SF2.)

I'm not 100% sure that WoD:Combat was based off of White Wolf's SF2
RPG, but I remember having peeked at the copy of SF2 that's gathering
dust at my local store, right after getting my copy of WoD:Combat, and
noting that the systems looked strikingly similar.

I just wonder if Mr. Long has one melee system worked out, and he just
ports it to whatever game he's hired to write for, whether it's Street
Fighter, World of Darkness or Hero's.

> He has lots of ideas for improving SR unarmed combat, but I guess
the
>trick is getting FASA to listen.

Oh really? He's actually done work porting his combat system onto SR?
Where can I find more information about this? That would be so cool if
he's got details worked out, it'd save me the trouble of doing a
conversion.
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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 34
From: Mark A Shieh <SHODAN+@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 15:45:42 -0400
I'm not 100% sure this is the right place, but if this isn't a
good sounding board for brainstorming house rules, stop now and e-mail
me to stop. :)

Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM> writes:
> In a message dated 98-10-14 10:30:00 EDT, you write:

> Game mechanic effects? For someone who specialized, I'd give them a +1 to
> their defense roll tn against someone who has a different specalization, to
> represent the fact that they are dealin with someone who reacts differently to
> an attack than they do. This minimizes number crunching, etc, while giving a
> non roleplaying reason not to specialize.

I always specialized *for* roleplaying reasons. ;) I also
justify it by pointing out that any other trained combatant has also
specialized in a style, so you have no real advantage except over an
unskilled combatant. It also keeps you from being completely
overwhelmed by an armed combatant with a point of reach.

I don't see a good way to expand the melee rules in SR without
introducing more ranges, and I also feel that styles should not be
specializations. After brainstorming for a few minutes, I'd try for
something still pretty abstract, but more detailed, like

1) grapple/throw
2) close (knee/elbow optimal range)
3) punch
4) kick/reach 0 weapons (knife, I'm thinking of mainly)
5) reach 1 weapons
6) reach 2 weapons
7) reach 2 weapons (again)
8) disengage from melee

where each style would have bonus or penalty dice at each
range like totems. You'd also have attack and defense bonus dice for
style like aikido. The problem would be maneuvering between the
ranges... Maybe cancel out 2 successes on the melee test to move
between 1-4, 4-5, 5-6, 6-7, 7-8? However, this breaks completely for
groups larger than 1vs1. (I can't fight well enough to provide decent
rules speculation for mob melee, and I really don't care to wander off
and learn the normal way... :)

At ranges 1-4, reach would provide no bonuses, at range 5,
reach 2 weapons would function as reach 1 weapons. Range 6-7 is default
SR2/3 rules. You could also modify the firearm test from melee to be
+1TN for each range <6... My problem would be determining initial
range (6?)

As far as examples, I'd propose the following:
Tang Soo Do: +1 kicks (range 4) -1 close (range 2)
(or Tae Kwon Do w/ some non-sparring experience)

aikido: +2 dice defense, -1 dice ranges 2-8
(not that familiar with this, just know aikido people)

Wing Chun I'm not that familiar with, but would it be something like
+1 dice close/punch (range 2-3), -1 dice throw/kick (range 1, 4)?

Of course, I'm just brainstorming. If someone thinks I could
turn this into something workable, please send comments via e-mail.
Don't want to clutter. (Though someday I'll have an opportunity to
use Unarmed Combat as a complementary skill for Intimidation. ;)

Mark
Message no. 35
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 18:51:35 -0400
At 12:22 AM 10-15-98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I'm not 100% sure that WoD:Combat was based off of White Wolf's SF2
>RPG, but I remember having peeked at the copy of SF2 that's gathering
>dust at my local store, right after getting my copy of WoD:Combat, and
>noting that the systems looked strikingly similar.
>
>I just wonder if Mr. Long has one melee system worked out, and he just
>ports it to whatever game he's hired to write for, whether it's Street
>Fighter, World of Darkness or Hero's.

Actually, it's that Steve is a research fiend to put Jon Szeto to shame,
and thoroughly researched a whole lot of styles before writing UMA (which
puts him about 12 steps ahead of most other writers in the RPG industry).
He's also got a good head for turning RL situations into game rules that
work. So basically he just sits down and says to himself, "This style
works this way, and here's how to represent it under these game rules."

>> He has lots of ideas for improving SR unarmed combat, but I guess the
>>trick is getting FASA to listen.
>
>Oh really? He's actually done work porting his combat system onto SR?
>Where can I find more information about this? That would be so cool if
>he's got details worked out, it'd save me the trouble of doing a
>conversion.

I'll send you his e-mail address in a private mail. (He's pretty good
about answering questions and comments, but I don't know that he'd want his
address all over a mailing list.)

> -- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 36
From: EdgeWalker EdgeWalker@*****.net
Subject: Unarmed Combat
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:06:53 +0100
Hi, Stupid Question i know but I am having a major blank spot. What happens
if a character does not have unarmed combat and then goes in to unarmed
combat with another character? Would you say that the character without
unarmed combat could only use half his combat pool or is there a rule that
covers this that I am missing?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Watch the Shadow's.....
You never know what lives there!!"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
EdgeWalker@*****.net
Therin@*****.net
Andrew.Benn@*****.net
ABenn@*****.net
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.prima.net/abenn
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ICQ Number : 18166605
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Message no. 37
From: Mike Todd mtodd@*****.org
Subject: Unarmed Combat
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:32:25 -0700
-----Original Message-----
From: EdgeWalker <EdgeWalker@*****.net>
>Hi, Stupid Question i know but I am having a major blank spot. What
happens
>if a character does not have unarmed combat and then goes in to unarmed
>combat with another character?


I would presume you simply default the skill using the skill web.
Message no. 38
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Unarmed Combat
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 12:53:44 CST
> >Hi, Stupid Question i know but I am having a major blank spot. What
>happens
> >if a character does not have unarmed combat and then goes in to unarmed
> >combat with another character?
>
>
>I would presume you simply default the skill using the skill web.

Unless you use SR3, in that case I believe that you either default to
Strength or another skill (Cyber-implant Weaponry I think).

Geoff Haacke
"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 39
From: Mike Todd mtodd@*****.org
Subject: Unarmed Combat
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:11:37 -0700
-----Original Message-----
From: Geoffrey Haacke <knight_errant30@*******.com>
>>I would presume you simply default the skill using the skill web.
>
>Unless you use SR3, in that case I believe that you either default to
>Strength or another skill (Cyber-implant Weaponry I think).


They ditched the skill web is SR3?
Message no. 40
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Unarmed Combat
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 21:41:54 -0500
> >>I would presume you simply default the skill using the skill web.
> >
> >Unless you use SR3, in that case I believe that you either default to
> >Strength or another skill (Cyber-implant Weaponry I think).
>
> They ditched the skill web is SR3?

And there was much rejoicing....

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 41
From: Ulrich Haupt sandman@****.uni-oldenburg.de
Subject: Unarmed Combat
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 08:53:21 +0200
EdgeWalker wrote:
>
> Hi, Stupid Question i know but I am having a major blank spot. What happens
> if a character does not have unarmed combat and then goes in to unarmed
> combat with another character? Would you say that the character without
> unarmed combat could only use half his combat pool or is there a rule that
> covers this that I am missing?

You have to default. You can default to the according
attribute. Doing that you may not use any combat pool dice.
Or can default to another skill of the same category which
allows you to use half combat pool or quarter combat pool if
using a spicializiation (IMHO). It is covered in the BBB in
the defaulting section.

Sandman
Message no. 42
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Unarmed Combat
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 11:49:34 +0200
According to EdgeWalker, at 19:06 on 4 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> Hi, Stupid Question i know but I am having a major blank spot. What happens
> if a character does not have unarmed combat and then goes in to unarmed
> combat with another character? Would you say that the character without
> unarmed combat could only use half his combat pool or is there a rule that
> covers this that I am missing?

If you're using SRII rules, you use the Skill Web to default to another
skill, adding +2 TN per dot between the two skills.

In SR3, look at the table on page 82. You can default to a skill in the
same box as the skill you don't have at a +2 TN modifier, or to the
attribute the skill belongs to, at a +4. In the first case, the amount of
Combat Pool dice that may be used is one-half the skill whose dice you
actually roll, while in the second you may not roll Combat Pool dice at
all. (This is explained on pages 84-85.)

Or, if you play third edition but want a skill web instead of this
newfangled "skills are linked to attributes" stuff, go to
http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/srbooks/sw.html and download a
skill web for use with SR3. Note that it doesn't include the new skills
from MITS (yet).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
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Message no. 43
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Unarmed Combat
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 14:14:14 CST
>They ditched the skill web is SR3?
>

Oh yeah. You can find a SR3 skill web on the net though. I can't remember
where....

Geoff Haacke
"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."


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Message no. 44
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Unarmed Combat
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 08:39:25 +0200
Geoffrey Haacke wrote:
>
> >They ditched the skill web is SR3?
> >
>
> Oh yeah. You can find a SR3 skill web on the net though. I can't remember
> where....

It's on Plastic Warriors

http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/srbooks/sw.html

--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com
Wandata

QVANTI CANICVLA ILLA IN FENESTRA

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