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Message no. 1
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 16:44:45 -0600
>Hmmm. I always thought the fundamentals of brawling were "Hit them as hard
>as you can, as often as you can." ;-) Actually, I'm not at all convinced
>that "most streetfights go to the ground", and I do train in
>groundfighting.

If a fight isn't won by one punch (as many realistically are... the famed
suckerpunch) then there is a good chance it will go to the ground or at
least will go to grappling range. Only barfight/streetfight types (there
were 2 brothers) I ever knew to punch all the time and not get into
grappling I later found out were boxers. Personal experiences differ so I
can't speak for anyone but myself :)

>>Against other kick/punch types, they fair very well as both are content to
>>stay at the same basic ranges (kick range and punch range). The other two
>>ranges (trapping and grappling) are where basic brawling will most likely
>>take place and are too close to effectively kick or punch.

>Can't agree with you there. There are plenty of kicks (axe, crescent, back)
>and punches (hook, uppercut, shovel) that can be executed just fine from
>"in your face" range. Heck, some of my favorite kuzushi (off-balancing) for
>throws like tai-otoshi and uchimata involves uppercuts and hooks. At the
>other extreme, you have an art like Aikido where ma-ai (proper distancing)
>for throws is *outside* kicking and punching range.

The people who I've learned from come from extremely varied backgrounds and
I've just picked up bits and pieces (I refuse to concentrate on one
particular art, though I don't know why). Most of what I've learned has
come from different forms of Jui Jitsu, Kali, Muay Thai, and several of the
Chinese arts. From those, most of my lessons deal with trapping/grappling
(except of course, Muay Thai).

Every once in a while we have sparring parties with instructors and students
from local groups and, invariably, the kick/punch stylists end up on the
ground with a surprised look on the face and either a choke or a lock
applied. Two of the kick/punch instructors do very well on the ground, but
they've taken Judo and Jui Jitsu (don't remember the exact substyle)
respectively, so that isn't a surprise.

Up-close kicks are generally a "here's my leg, now throw me to the ground"
gift. Hooks are better served farther out than up close, and also give
prime opportunities for trapping and locks. In short, some strikes can work
up-close, but grappling techniques are much easier and a far better choice
at those ranges. It's a lot easier to take someone to the ground than to
avoid being taken to the ground.

As far as Aikido goes, I don't know much about the art except what I've seen
from a few demos. It's an impressive art (very rarely do I find an art that
doesn't impress me) but I don't fit the Aikido mindset. With that said, I
can't see myself learning more about it.

(realizes what he's done) ACK! Ok, no more real-life martial discussion
from me. I'd be more than happy to carry this on privately though if
anyone's interested. :)


----------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
----------------------------------------------------------
* Currently seeking quotables... *
----------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 2
From: Jason Messer <bitter@****.ncn.com>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 17:09:37 -0800 (PST)
At 04:15 PM 3/10/96 -0600, Topcat wrote:

>There's never enough grouching *grin*.
>
>As I said before, the skillweb idea sucks. There should be "everyman"
>skills that every person in Shadowrun have at at least level 1 (and that
>nasty rule of one thing has to go too or everyone becomes a danger to
>society for 16.7% of their life). Skills are too expensive and not set up
>well in a game that is highly dependent on a set and comprehensive skill
system.
>
>My solution... FASA should enlist a horde of us to make SR3 or at least
>consider the idea themselves. ;)

So how would you go about it?
Storyteller type system
Gurps type system
CP type system
ED type system

Pretty much all of these skill systems have skills based on stats in such
a way that people with higher stats are better in derived skills.

Maybe FASA will use steps (or whatever ED uses) for SR3.
The old Dee'N Dee'er in me would just love to use those wierd shaped dice
again :)
_________________________________________________________________
"As technology became more important, the Trickster underwent a
shift in character and became the god of crafts -of technology,
if you will- while retaining the underlying roguish qualities"
-Neal Stephenson "The Diamond age"
Message no. 3
From: plblack@********.com (Patrick L. Black)
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 21:00:59 -0700
On 10 Mar 1996, Damon Milliken wrote:
>
>This is one of the things that sort of bugs me about the SR system too.
>Take a person from nowadays. They can drive vehicles OK, use computers OK,
>likely know a bit of first aid, can probably handle themselves in a fight
>even though they've had no formal training and so forth. To represent this
>in SR, a character would have to have about a dozen or so extra skills, all
>at low to moderate ratings. How many characters do you see like this? I
>know not too many of my players characters have more than half a dozen
>skills (with a couple of notable exceptions of course), and these skills are
>usually 5-6 in rating. So you have people living in 2050 who can't drive
>(which is not too unlikely I suppose with autopilots and all), who can't
>hope to handle themselves in a fight, who have no working knowledge of
>computers, no etiquette skill and so on. I guess they can default through
>the skill web and all, but it still strikes me as a little wrong. Anyway,
>enough grouching.
>

I would think that if a character was realistically developed, they would
have more low rated skills and only a few that were higher.(At least to
start) I have one player who is doing his character that way, so it will be
interesting to see how it works.

Also, I think that most people today, and probably in the SR world, default
alot to the skill web. As you mention above, most people can use a
computer, but how many use them well enough to call it a skill? Many of the
people I know that use them casually for work etc would definitely be
defaulting to the skill web. (ie they are smart enough to figure out how to
work the thing, as long as it is not out of the ordinary. The company I get
Internet access from offers, for a fee, to come and install the software
package that comes with the hook up. This implies that many people would be
concerned about being able to set-up software.) The only things that would
have skill ratings in are the things they do alot becuase of jobs, hobbies,
special interest etc.

Patrick L. Black
"Never Wake A Sleeping Mugatu"
Message no. 4
From: acgetchell@*******.edu (Adam Getchell)
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 20:47:33 -0800 (PST)
>If a fight isn't won by one punch (as many realistically are... the famed
>suckerpunch) then there is a good chance it will go to the ground or at
>least will go to grappling range. Only barfight/streetfight types (there
>were 2 brothers) I ever knew to punch all the time and not get into
>grappling I later found out were boxers. Personal experiences differ so I
>can't speak for anyone but myself :)

Yup. Most of the people I know that *don't* go to the ground are judoka. Of
course, their opponents usually *do* end up prone.

>Up-close kicks are generally a "here's my leg, now throw me to the ground"
>gift. Hooks are better served farther out than up close, and also give
>prime opportunities for trapping and locks. In short, some strikes can work
>up-close, but grappling techniques are much easier and a far better choice
>at those ranges. It's a lot easier to take someone to the ground than to
>avoid being taken to the ground.

None of the kicks I mentioned (axe, crescent, back) can be effectively
blocked, much less grabbed, when thrown correctly. We must have learned a
different hook punch, too, because the one I learned has a range equal to
the length of your upper arm. It happens to be prime for KO'ing someone in
close, even when done to the ribs, and also cannot be easily blocked. As
far as easily taking someone to the ground, I don't think you've played
seriously with an aikidoka or judoka. ;-)

>(realizes what he's done) ACK! Ok, no more real-life martial discussion
>from me. I'd be more than happy to carry this on privately though if
>anyone's interested. :)

Sure, we can take this to private e-mail. Your response was public, though. ;-)

>* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *

=================================================================
Adam Getchell
acgetchell@*******.edu
http://www.engr.ucdavis.edu/~acgetche/
=================================================================

"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent."
-- Sun Tzu
Message no. 5
From: Lady Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:22:51 +1000 (EST)
> > We came up with a house rules variant - if you want to pick a
> > Specialisation (eg our dwarf skinhead racist with a Headbutt 8), fine.
> > Otherwise, specific combat techniques ie karate, Tae Kwan Do etc, count
> > as Unarmed Combat - the skill. There *IS* no concentration in Unarmed
> > Combat, as far as we're concerned. It's the basic skill or the
> > specialised maneuvre, but nothing in between.
>
> That's probbaly a damn good solution for martial arts actually, thanks. How
> do you handle someone who wants something like a "killer right hook", or
> similar though?

It's a specialisation, and as such they get the extra 2 dice at
creation/cheaper to raise. Doesn't do more damage, they just get more dice.
(Hey, maybe they can combine it with that biology skill to *get* more
damage *grin*)

> > Now for a question of my own - does anyone else think that Athletics is
> > FAR too all-encompassing a skill for the karma it costs you to raise it?
>
> Well, no where near as bad as Physical Sciences, no. But, yeah, it may be a
> tad better than, say, Projectile Weapons. It depends on how loosly you
> interpret the things it does for you. The book claims that appropriate
> concentrations are: running, climbing, lifting, jumping and swimming. If
> you allow the jumping concentration to include pole-vault for example, then
> it does get a little good, but if you just limit it to standard long-jump
> type things then I think it's fairly ok.

Ummm, fair enough, I guess... which brings me to another question. :)

My rigger, explosive lass that she is :), was trying to throw a grenade
under a police car. She didn't have Throwing Weapons amongst her skills, and
according to the skill web, it oughta be a Quickness +4, same as firearms.

So is it just me, or does anyone else think that it's wacko to say that
throwing a grenade (a lumpy rock with a lever on the side) is as
difficult as firing a gun (a nasty thing with recoil and lots of
confusing buttons)? I think it oughta be a Quickness +2, but hey, that's
just me... (and yes, I will be specialising in Throwing
Weapons-Non-Aerodynamic-Grenades just as soon as I've got some Karma *grin*)


Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed are my own, unless you don't
agree with them, in which case they are my evil twin
sister's opinions.
Message no. 6
From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:35:57 +0200 (EET)
On Sun, 10 Mar 1996, Adam Getchell wrote:

> Cinematic style descriptions are much better. A worthwhile martial arts
> system would probably just be a list of cool-sounding techniques that could
> be used by players and GMs in spicing up their descriptions.
>
Palladium Books: Ninjas & Superspies


---------------------------------------------
: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
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Message no. 7
From: Sakura <jeffj@**.com>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:48:14 -0600 (CST)
On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, Matti Aistrich wrote:

> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:35:57 +0200 (EET)
> From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
> To: shadowrn@********.itribe.net
> Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
>
> On Sun, 10 Mar 1996, Adam Getchell wrote:
>
> > Cinematic style descriptions are much better. A worthwhile martial arts
> > system would probably just be a list of cool-sounding techniques that could
> > be used by players and GMs in spicing up their descriptions.
> >
> Palladium Books: Ninjas & Superspies

Sure, if you want something that's not terribly realistic, with several
completely made-up martial arts masquerading as real ones, and a severe
thrashing of Eastern philosophies into something that is almost, but not
completely, unlike what they're really like. ;)

My advice would be to go for GURPS Martial Arts or Ninja Hero - both have
been rewritten recently (Ninja Hero as The Ultimate Martial Artist), both
are pretty clear on what's 'real' and what isn't, and both have a -lot-
more accuray (historical and rules-wise) than N&S. IMHO, the GURPS book
would be a little bit more useful for a Shadowrun campaign, because it's
got more 'real-world' background material and less rules-specific stuff
than NH/TUMA.

Jeff Johnston Freedom of Speech Support the Blue
http://www.io.com/~jeffj R.I.P. Ribbon Anti-Censorship
jeffj@**.com 1781 - 1996 Campaign!
Message no. 8
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:58:09 -0600
>>[snipped "I want a new system"]

>So how would you go about it?
>Storyteller type system
>Gurps type system
>CP type system
>ED type system

Storyteller is out, it works much better diceless and the fumble rule sucks
for the system. The GURPS system works well, as does the HERO system, but
as generic systems that's what they're made to do and copyrights on that
stuff would be no fun. CP I don't know a whole lot about, so I can't put
out any thoughts in that direction (though from what I have heard, it's
hideously munchable, so it's probably a no-go).

Which, of course, leaves Earthdawn. The system works fairly well in that
game, why not spread the wealth a bit and give SR a boost where it needs it
most? Whatcha say, FASA-people? :)

>Pretty much all of these skill systems have skills based on stats in such
>a way that people with higher stats are better in derived skills.

Which is as it should be :)


----------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
----------------------------------------------------------
* Currently seeking quotables... *
----------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: seb@*****.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:54:55 -0600 (CST)
Regarding stat + skill test type systems- i think most of these systems place
way to much empasis on stats. I like SR's use of stats for opposed tests,
certain ressistance tests, dammage level, etc. But the stat ranges are so
high that they would completely overwhwlm skill. This is often true in
Earthdawn- I remember many an elf with dx19 (step 9 i think) bieng a better
fighter than trained obsidiman warriors (who might start with dx step 5 and
add 2 or 3 for skill). The point bieng, Stats should be thier own reward, and
have tertiary impact on skill use- as the combat pool does already.
--
--Seb
Message no. 10
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:58:09 -0600
TopCat:
>>>[snipped "I want a new system"]
>
>>So how would you go about it?
>>Storyteller type system
>>Gurps type system
>>CP type system
>>ED type system
>
>Storyteller is out, it works much better diceless and the fumble rule sucks
>for the system. The GURPS system works well, as does the HERO system, but
>as generic systems that's what they're made to do and copyrights on that
>stuff would be no fun. CP I don't know a whole lot about, so I can't put
>out any thoughts in that direction (though from what I have heard, it's
>hideously munchable, so it's probably a no-go).
>
>Which, of course, leaves Earthdawn. The system works fairly well in that
>game, why not spread the wealth a bit and give SR a boost where it needs it
>most? Whatcha say, FASA-people? :)
>
>>Pretty much all of these skill systems have skills based on stats in such
>>a way that people with higher stats are better in derived skills.
>
>Which is as it should be :)

I see no one mentioned ICE. aka Chartmaster :)

Actually, if you want to incorperate <sp?> attributes into the shadowrun
system as it stands, just do what I do (sometimes). Have the target number
of the skill role be some function of an appropriate attribute. For
example, climbing a wall might be athletics(12-quickness). For skills
that are resisted, you can use the opposing oppositions attribute for the
target number, much like negotiations is done. (Negotiations(Target's will))

Just some ideas...

U-Gene << hmmm... haven't had much to say lately >>
Message no. 11
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:52:29 +0100
Sebastian Wiers said on 11 Mar 96...

> Regarding stat + skill test type systems- i think most of these systems place
> way to much empasis on stats. I like SR's use of stats for opposed tests,
> certain ressistance tests, dammage level, etc. But the stat ranges are so
> high that they would completely overwhwlm skill. This is often true in
> Earthdawn- I remember many an elf with dx19 (step 9 i think) bieng a better
> fighter than trained obsidiman warriors (who might start with dx step 5 and
> add 2 or 3 for skill). The point bieng, Stats should be thier own reward, and
> have tertiary impact on skill use- as the combat pool does already.

I find stat-based systems hard for made-on-the-fly NPCs, because I have to
set my mind to work to make them internally consistent -- although maybe
that's just my own problem, with not liking things that contradict
themselves and all...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Iedereen lult
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 12
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:43:23 -0600
>Regarding stat + skill test type systems- i think most of these systems place
>way to much empasis on stats. I like SR's use of stats for opposed tests,
>certain ressistance tests, dammage level, etc. But the stat ranges are so
>high that they would completely overwhwlm skill. This is often true in
>Earthdawn- I remember many an elf with dx19 (step 9 i think) bieng a better
>fighter than trained obsidiman warriors (who might start with dx step 5 and
>add 2 or 3 for skill). The point bieng, Stats should be thier own reward, and
>have tertiary impact on skill use- as the combat pool does already.

Realistically, raw ability (stats) are far more important than training for
determining effectiveness. A parapalegic may be highly skilled at
something, but he'll be worthless in any real-world application.

I realize that this is taking the example a bit far, but I have yet to meet
someone who'll tell me that an overweight, weak, dumb person who has trained
for years in something is going to be better than an in-shape, strong,
intelligent person in the same field with minimal training.

Not too many 50 IQ nuclear physicists out there, nor are there many Olympic
athletes that are out grossly of shape. In fact, it could well be said that
there are none of either. Raw ability is the most important factor in
determining how well a person will do in any given thing. Training can only
work within the limits that a person has. Once you start trying to teach
someone something they can't handle, they stop learning.

I don't necessarily know how the ED system works, but SR is definitely too
skill-oriented and it sounds like ED may be too stat oriented (which I don't
think is possible). The problem may actually lie in that certain stats mean
too much in ED. Those sort of things can be corrected easily.

Also, stat ranges should be higher than 1-6. The variation of ability from
one person to the next is far larger than can be adequately represented in a
six-number range. The bigger the better, but too big means unwieldy. So
there's a middle ground to be found out there.

And of course, the skill web need be burned.


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- Jebe Noyon "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 13
From: h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:47:29 +1100 (EST)
>Earthdawn- I remember many an elf with dx19 (step 9 i think) bieng a better
>fighter than trained obsidiman warriors (who might start with dx step 5 and
>add 2 or 3 for skill).

Of course it is fair to point out that the elf would have Step 8 and would
have put a 17 in the stat while the Obsidiman would have put, at most, a 14
in Dex. This results in 21 points out of 66 for the elf and 13 for the
Obsidiman. So the elf has 8 points less to spend on the other 5 attributes
and the Obsidiman does after all have a minimum of 21 Strength when he
starts play.

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.sandybay.utas.edu.au
Message no. 14
From: PDL@****.dacom.co.kr
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 09:38:30 PST
Thread concerning specialization of martial artists. Which I think
was decided that specializations were too complicated to deal with.
What happens when with the generalist, assuming he has studied the
martial arts. Bruce, a physical adept, with killing hands is fighting a troll proficient
in boxing. Bruce can't slug it out with the troll. I
know it doesn't work from first hand experience. One of the options, I
have come up with is to throw the troll. However, how would this work?
Anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with this?

Patrick
Message no. 15
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:56:38 -0600
>Thread concerning specialization of martial artists. Which I think
>was decided that specializations were too complicated to deal with.
>What happens when with the generalist, assuming he has studied the
>martial arts. Bruce, a physical adept, with killing hands is
>fighting a troll proficient in boxing. Bruce can't slug it out
>with the troll. I know it doesn't work from first hand experience.

Get enhanced centering and use it to drop your penalty for reach difference.
If you have more dice, you'll have a shot at taking him. It's one of those
unwritten laws that you just don't go toe-to-toe with trolls. My advice is
to run far enough away that he can't attack you, then shoot, then run, then
shoot. Repeat til dead.

As far as rules for a throw goes... hmmm, maybe work it on the knockdown
rules? No damage, but increase the chance of knocking the opponent down
(lots easier to hit a prone guy). I know that realistically throws would
cause pain (I know this first hand), but this isn't a realistic combat
system (nyah nyah).


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 16
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:57:38 -0600
At 10:47 AM 3/13/96 +1100, Mad Hamish wrote:
>>Earthdawn- I remember many an elf with dx19 (step 9 i think) bieng a better
>>fighter than trained obsidiman warriors (who might start with dx step 5 and
>>add 2 or 3 for skill).

>Of course it is fair to point out that the elf would have Step 8 and would
>have put a 17 in the stat while the Obsidiman would have put, at most, a 14
>in Dex. This results in 21 points out of 66 for the elf and 13 for the
>Obsidiman. So the elf has 8 points less to spend on the other 5 attributes
>and the Obsidiman does after all have a minimum of 21 Strength when he
>starts play.

I KNEW there was a flipside to that coin. SO ED is probably a great choice
for a new SR dice system! :)


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 17
From: PDL@****.dacom.co.kr
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 09:46:19 PST
---------------Original Message---------------

Get enhanced centering and use it to drop your penalty for reach difference.
If you have more dice, you'll have a shot at taking him. It's one of those
unwritten laws that you just don't go toe-to-toe with trolls. My advice is
to run far enough away that he can't attack you, then shoot, then run, then
shoot. Repeat til dead.

As far as rules for a throw goes... hmmm, maybe work it on the knockdown
rules? No damage, but increase the chance of knocking the opponent down
(lots easier to hit a prone guy). I know that realistically throws would
cause pain (I know this first hand), but this isn't a realistic combat
system (nyah nyah).


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
----------End of Original Message----------
Unfortunately, the first one was not an option for two reasons:

1) I had to go toe to toe because the troll was blocking the
way out.

2) Bruce has *no* firearms skill. He only carries an Ares
Predator II because he got tired of people asking him if he
had a gun. To give you an indication of how this charcater
thinks, he has only fired a firearm once. It was a grenade
launcher filled with smoke grenades. The mage who was blasting
the party lost LOS, when he did this. Then Bruce chased him
down the hallway.

Thank you for the advice, it helps a lot. Even if it is based on
real world stuff. :)

Patrick
Message no. 18
From: tkerby@***.net (Tim Kerby)
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 20:43:54 EST
On Sun, 10 Mar 1996 12:12:49 -0600 Justin C. Thomas wrote:

>no no, it says somewhere in the book (don't have it on me right now) that
>everyone can drive a car, and they don't need a driving skill, they only
>need one when they are trying evasive actions, combat, or a crash test...

I remember reading that too...darned if I could find it. Closest thing I could
find was on page 72 of SRII, under Vehicle Skills:
"The type of vehicle in use and the driver's familiarity with it affects the
chance of success when a character attempts a difficult manuever or takes
the vehicle through difficult terrain and conditions. Ordinary operation of the
vehicle requires no die roll. In fact, many 21st century vehicles can operate
almost on their own."

But anyway, it makes sense. Saying otherwise is like saying a character
needs Computer to operate his telecom, or Electronics to operate a maglock
or his trid set. There are basic things that someone living in 205X would
know.


____TIM KERBY____ |===================================================
tkerby@***.net |"Never relax. Your run may be over, but someone, somewhere,
drekhead@***.com | is just starting his and the target could be you."
_________________ |===================================================
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1
GCA d-(+)@ s: a- C+(++)>+++$ U--- P? L+ E? W N o? K- w--- O++>+++$ M-- V? PS+ PE++
Y PGP- t+(++) 5 X+ R(+) tv@ b++ DI(+) D++ G e h--- r+++ y+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 19
From: acgetchell@*******.edu (Adam Getchell)
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 14:22:51 -0800 (PST)
>As far as rules for a throw goes... hmmm, maybe work it on the knockdown
>rules? No damage, but increase the chance of knocking the opponent down
>(lots easier to hit a prone guy). I know that realistically throws would
>cause pain (I know this first hand), but this isn't a realistic combat
>system (nyah nyah).

Throws can kill, perhaps, more easily than punches. Especially throws by
the neck. After all, Judo is the fine art of hitting the opponent with the
ground.
;-) (Aikido throws *can* be as nasty, but the point in Aikido is usually to
damage your opponent as *least* as possible).

Throw: Unarmed Combat, reach does not apply. Damage: (Opponents body)M Stun,
plus target prone. Can resist with Body and Athletics.

Seems to work for our group, not too munchkinous (as it would be if you
were to use the actual falling damage rules).

>* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *

=================================================================
Adam Getchell
acgetchell@*******.edu
http://www.engr.ucdavis.edu/~acgetche/
=================================================================

"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent."
-- Sun Tzu
Message no. 20
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 18:03:45 -0600
>Throws can kill, perhaps, more easily than punches. Especially throws by
>the neck. After all, Judo is the fine art of hitting the opponent with the
>ground.

I prefer leg and body throws, they end up on their necks/heads more often,
get their quicker, and are much easier to perform.

>Throw: Unarmed Combat, reach does not apply. Damage: (Opponents body)M Stun,
>plus target prone. Can resist with Body and Athletics.
>Seems to work for our group, not too munchkinous (as it would be if you
>were to use the actual falling damage rules).

Seems to be a fairly well done ruling for throws, Adam. :)

Questions about it, tho...

1) Is it more effective than standard attacks or are they equal? I get real
iffy about things that become far more powerful (which this seems) than the
normal attack without any added cost.

2) A troll would be REALLY hard to throw. They're a lot taller, a lot
heavier, and a lot stronger. The chance for a normal-sized human to throw
one of them would be akin to throwing a sumo wrestler. Also, their
arms/legs/whatever are significantly larger and wouldn't be nearly as easy
to grab of guide.


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 21
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 18:09:04 -0600
>1) I had to go toe to toe because the troll was blocking the
>way out.

Ouch. Mean ole nasty GM. ;)

Another way to beat the troll, "friends in melee". Just have everyone rush
him, three people attacking a troll in melee will each have a TN of @* while
the troll will be @* (modify for weapon reach if anyone's using 'em).

The more the merrier. Good way to brutalize spirits too.


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 22
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 18:12:50 -0600
>often, get their quicker
^^^^^
That's one typo...

>to grab of guide.
^^
That's two...

Moral of the story?

Don't drink and type ;)


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 23
From: PDL@*****.co.kr.dacom.co.kr
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 96 13:35:34 PST
---------------Original Message---------------

>Throw: Unarmed Combat, reach does not apply. Damage: (Opponents body)M Stun,
>plus target prone. Can resist with Body and Athletics.
>Seems to work for our group, not too munchkinous (as it would be if you
>were to use the actual falling damage rules).

Seems to be a fairly well done ruling for throws, Adam. :)

Questions about it, tho...

1) Is it more effective than standard attacks or are they equal? I get real
iffy about things that become far more powerful (which this seems) than the
normal attack without any added cost.

2) A troll would be REALLY hard to throw. They're a lot taller, a lot
heavier, and a lot stronger. The chance for a normal-sized human to throw
one of them would be akin to throwing a sumo wrestler. Also, their
arms/legs/whatever are significantly larger and wouldn't be nearly as easy
to grab of guide.


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------


----------End of Original Message----------
First theory: Isn't the theory behind a throw,
that you use you opponent's momentum against
them? If this is the case, the strength of your
opponent shouldn't matter.

Second theory: If the first theory is misguided,
doesn't the body test reflect the disparity
between humans and trolls. The troll has more body
to resist with.

I want to thank all the people who have
participated in this thread, they have really
given me some insight into my question.

BTW, What is "Mozart in Mirrorshades?"
Is it work of fiction, movie, or an
epithets of your own creation?

Patrick
Message no. 24
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 11:33:13 -0600
I wrote...
>2) A troll would be REALLY hard to throw. They're a lot taller, a lot
>heavier, and a lot stronger. The chance for a normal-sized human to throw
>one of them would be akin to throwing a sumo wrestler. Also, their
>arms/legs/whatever are significantly larger and wouldn't be nearly as easy
>to grab of guide.

Patrick wrote...
>First theory: Isn't the theory behind a throw,
>that you use you opponent's momentum against
>them? If this is the case, the strength of your
>opponent shouldn't matter.

Theory and practice are two different things. Due to my size/strength, some
of the throws that we practice weekly don't work on me unless done by larger
people. Mass, more than strength is the key.

>Second theory: If the first theory is misguided,
>doesn't the body test reflect the disparity
>between humans and trolls. The troll has more body
>to resist with.

Yep, he does have more body to resist with (on average). And I'm still
kinda hung up on the throw (by those rules) maybe being even more effective
than a normal attack and as such, being unbalanced (same cost, more effect).

>BTW, What is "Mozart in Mirrorshades?"
>Is it work of fiction, movie, or an
>epithets of your own creation?

It's a short story by Bruce Sterling and Lewis Shiner that can be found in
the book _Mirrorshades_. It was edited by Bruce Sterling and has quite a
few good stories (mostly cyberpunk) in it. Mozart in Mirrorshades is my
fave, tho :)


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 25
From: acgetchell@*******.edu (Adam Getchell)
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 04:16:53 -0800 (PST)
Ah, comments. Good.

>>Throw: Unarmed Combat, reach does not apply. Damage: (Opponents body)M Stun,
>>plus target prone. Can resist with Body and Athletics.
>>Seems to work for our group, not too munchkinous (as it would be if you
>>were to use the actual falling damage rules).
>
>Seems to be a fairly well done ruling for throws, Adam. :)
>
>Questions about it, tho...
>
>1) Is it more effective than standard attacks or are they equal? I get real
>iffy about things that become far more powerful (which this seems) than the
>normal attack without any added cost.

It does the same damage as a regular attack, and the defender does get to
add in Athletics to breakfall (which they don't get for a regular attack).
To be fair, though, I think I'd make it a called shot (+4), except that
(like Ambidexterity) the user can offset this penalty by specializing in a
particular throw. This penalty offset also applies; I give a combined
example below.
>
>2) A troll would be REALLY hard to throw. They're a lot taller, a lot
>heavier, and a lot stronger. The chance for a normal-sized human to throw
>one of them would be akin to throwing a sumo wrestler. Also, their
>arms/legs/whatever are significantly larger and wouldn't be nearly as easy
>to grab of guide.

Sure, easy enough to grab, just hard to do something with (I've thrown 300+
pound guys, myself being at 160 or so, but I agree it's hard and you can
only do it with certain throws). Let's say a penalty equal to the
difference in Body between attacker/defender, but no bonus. Also offset
with concentration.

Yamashita (Body 6) decides to Seoi-Nage a Troll bouncer (Body 10). Luckily,
he's got Seoi Nage at 10. His Target number is, on his attack, 4 + 4
(called shot) + 4 (difference in body) -10 = 2, but his skill can only
offset penalties, so his final Target Number is 4, for which he rolls 10
dice.

Someone with Seoi-Nage at 6 attempting this would have a Target of 6.

Naturally, on his action, the Troll bouncer is free to punch back and use
his reach advantage for his attack. It just doesn't happen to apply while
he's being attacked with a throw.

How's that?

The reason I go with this type of system is that, while I know dozens of
throws, the repertoire I'd use in an actual judo match is limited. The
All-Japan judo champions actual throw repertoire is quite limited: two, for
Sato Noboyuki. Sure, they know the 60 plus throws in the Gokyo, but it's
the Tokui Waza (favored technique) and a secondary technique that wins
their matches 90% of the time. Ueshiba Morihei said the same about Aikido;
if one masters Ikkyo Ude-Osae (arm pin) one hardly need learn other locking
and pinning techniques.

>* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *

=================================================================
Adam Getchell
acgetchell@*******.edu
http://www.engr.ucdavis.edu/~acgetche/
=================================================================

"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent."
-- Sun Tzu
Message no. 26
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:23:17 -0600
>>[snipped my fear of overly powerful manuevers without added cost]

>It does the same damage as a regular attack, and the defender does get to
>add in Athletics to breakfall (which they don't get for a regular attack).
>To be fair, though, I think I'd make it a called shot (+4), except that
>(like Ambidexterity) the user can offset this penalty by specializing in a
>particular throw. This penalty offset also applies; I give a combined
>example below.

Now that I can handle. Evens out nicely without costing too much.

>>2) A troll would be REALLY hard to throw. They're a lot taller, a lot
>>heavier, and a lot stronger. The chance for a normal-sized human to throw
>>one of them would be akin to throwing a sumo wrestler. Also, their
>>arms/legs/whatever are significantly larger and wouldn't be nearly as easy
>>to grab of guide.

>Sure, easy enough to grab, just hard to do something with (I've thrown 300+
>pound guys, myself being at 160 or so, but I agree it's hard and you can
>only do it with certain throws). Let's say a penalty equal to the
>difference in Body between attacker/defender, but no bonus. Also offset
>with concentration.

Easy to grab a guy who weighs 300 but how about a 500-700 pound opponent
who's also @* feet taller? 20-inch forearms can't be that easy to get a
hold of. I like the penalty by body thing, but why no bonus?

>[snipped the example]

I like the way that works. Except for the no bonus part. :)


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 27
From: acgetchell@*******.edu (Adam Getchell)
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat Specialisation
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 01:48:14 -0800 (PST)
>Easy to grab a guy who weighs 300 but how about a 500-700 pound opponent
>who's also @* feet taller? 20-inch forearms can't be that easy to get a
>hold of. I like the penalty by body thing, but why no bonus?

Well, I figured that would once again, make throws more advantageous than
simple armed combat. As it is, the person with superior body won't be
getting a bonus on his throws (it can be hard to get your hips under a
smaller persons), but the smaller opponent *will* be fighting a penalty
trying to throw (or counterthrow) the larger opponent. That seems to work
adequately without the double jeopardy effect that one gets from, for
example, the reach rules.

Sure, there are some throws that are easier if you're large, but there are
also throws that work best when you're small: seoi-nage tends to work for
small people, whereas the large folks have osoto gari and taiotoshi as
their big scorers. Some throws (especially Aikido) are pure technique and
some more mass/muscle based. Rather than give the nod to strength or mass,
these rules give it to technique. You can always give a bonus for superior
body, if you want, but there again trolls come out on top, and you doubly
penalize the smaller types. Personally, I think the best race for judo is
the dwarf (which most judoka look like, anyways ;-).

If your Troll judoka really wants to work in his strength, use the Subduing
Combat rules on p. 103 to model groundfighting, pins, chokes and locks. And
of course, there's always that -1 for superior position and -2 for prone
modifiers on groundwork after a throw (though I don't necessarily agree
with the latter).

>* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *

=================================================================
Adam Getchell
acgetchell@*******.edu
http://www.engr.ucdavis.edu/~acgetche/
=================================================================

"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent."
-- Sun Tzu

Further Reading

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