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Message no. 1
From: xanth@****.uky.edu (Terry Amburgey)
Subject: unbalanced games
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 14:05:36 -0500 (EST)
The Shadowdancer wrote:
>Game balance has nothing to do with this question. GameBalance is the
>last refuge of the mind that cannot logically or illogically
>rationalize a concept.

OBNOXIUOSNESS ALERT!!!! IF YOU HAVE A THIN SKIN READ NO FURTHER
[this is NOT directed specifically at Shadowdancer]















I hypothesize that gamers who scoff at the notion of game balance are more
likely to have never played in an unbalanced game than gamers who take the
concept seriously.

Have those of you denigrating 'the holy game balance' [the generic 'you' not
Shadowdancer specifically] ever played in a game where

Scenario 1: the gaming style is vintage "Monty Haul"; low power PC's have
every toy in the book (My third level fighter sheaths his vorpal blade so
that he can use the Wand of Orcus...)
or

Scenario 2: the gaming system or GM favor a particular type of PC so that
only suicidal roleplayers would choose anything else?

Try it sometime, it sucks. Even I hate it, and I'm a munchkin. IMHO scoffing
at game balance is the first impulse of an inexperienced gamer. If you've
been gaming for years and you still think game balance is a dumb idea, feel
free to send flames to my GM at JRWICK00@***.uky.edu Terry


Terry L. Amburgey Office: 606-257-7726
Associate Professor Home: 606-224-0636
College of Business & Economics Fax: 606-257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506
Message no. 2
From: carmen sbordone <sbordo16@******.newpaltz.edu>
Subject: Re: unbalanced games
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:08:16 -0500 (EST)
I have to agree with Terry on Game Balance. I've been in both
balanced and unbalanced campaigns in a variety of systems. Once things get
out of hand, forget it, the game degenerates very quickly, to the point
where playing is no longer fun. scoff or laugh if you want, but I rather
have a balanced game than not.


carmen
Message no. 3
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: unbalanced games
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 20:13:10 +0000 (GMT)
>
>
>
>
> I have to agree with Terry on Game Balance. I've been in both
> balanced and unbalanced campaigns in a variety of systems. Once things get
> out of hand, forget it, the game degenerates very quickly, to the point
> where playing is no longer fun. scoff or laugh if you want, but I rather
> have a balanced game than not.
>
>
> carmen
>
Couldn't agree with you more!

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crackin |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant bolder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Rick Jones <rick@******.COM>
Subject: Re: unbalanced games
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 14:56:36 -0600 (CST)
carmen sbordone wrote:
> balanced and unbalanced campaigns in a variety of systems. Once things get
> out of hand, forget it, the game degenerates very quickly, to the point
> where playing is no longer fun. scoff or laugh if you want, but I rather
> have a balanced game than not.

Yeah, it can be a real problem. I've had complaints, just in my game,
that whenever combat starts, by the time that the
cybered-to-an-inch-of-his-life troll and the spell-locked as much mage are
done there's nothing for the dwarf PI to do.

Fortunately, I run enough mystery-type games for him to feel useful, but
it can be a real problem if some characters really overshadow the others.
It nearly killed a D&D game I was in ages ago. The Munchkin in the group
was eventually powerful enough he could have taken on the rest of the
party.

--
Rick Jones The future is always changing. We create the
rick@******.com future with our words, our deeds, and with our
Meyrick@***.com beliefs.
http://www-ece.rice.edu/~rickj/ -- Lady Ladira, Babylon 5, "Signs and Portents"
Message no. 5
From: Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject: Re: unbalanced games
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 16:03:22 -0500 (EST)
Klingon Name: Captain K'vort, Commander, DSF C7 "Victory"
MIME: We shoot them here.

>Scenario 2: the gaming system or GM favor a particular type of PC so that
>only suicidal roleplayers would choose anything else?

Been there... done that... Also, a GM who favors his girlfriend sucks...
what little roleplaying that was done in that campaign was done by
the GM's girlfriend, who ended up being the person with the monty haul...
All in all, it was horrible...

>If you've been gaming for years and you still think game balance is a dumb
>idea, feel free to send flames to my GM at JRWICK00@***.uky.edu

Game balance is good. GM's should have power over game, though. (I
suppose that's why they call it Game Master ;) GM's _can_ abuse that
power, although they shouldn't, and if they do, the people in his campaign
should _not play anymore_. This is what happened to the campaign I was
in, and thought role-playing was stupid until a very nice person showed
me what it _really_ was and I decided it was a good thing.

Thereore, to sum up my somewhat elongated delvations, game balance is a
good thing. GM's can and should occasionally go over game balance, in
order to make the game more enjoyable, NOT to make the game fun for one
person, particularly the GM him/her self. Games GM'd this way stink, which
is a common and accepted fact. But the power to change game balance should
reside in the hands of the GM, example would be Harlequin, who by the current
rules is a character who would impossible to make. For purposes of the game,
however, the maker of Harlequin and Harlequin's back decided that it was
necessary to go "bend" game balance somewhat. I have been told, since I have
not played them myself, that H & HB are good scenarios to play, and fun for
players and GM's. If they hadn't "bent" the rules, you couldn't run the
scenario.

Okay, so maybe I didn't do much summing up, but I think I got my point across.

>>>>>>>>> Nate (who never talks this much)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
| NTWalker@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US |
| |
| I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy. |
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Message no. 6
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: unbalanced games
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 23:30:34 +0000 (GMT)
>
> Klingon Name: Captain K'vort, Commander, DSF C7 "Victory"
> MIME: We shoot them here.
>
> >Scenario 2: the gaming system or GM favor a particular type of PC so that
> >only suicidal roleplayers would choose anything else?
>
> Been there... done that... Also, a GM who favors his girlfriend sucks...
> what little roleplaying that was done in that campaign was done by
> the GM's girlfriend, who ended up being the person with the monty haul...
> All in all, it was horrible...

How's this for a G.M./Girlfriend story.

The game:- AD&D
The party. Fighting a pit fiend (and losing)
After about 5 rounds the party are almost dead and the pit fiend hasn't
taken much damage at all when (Drum roll please....)
The girlfriend casts a fireball at the pit fiend and says.....
'That was enough to kill it..... WASN'T IT....' while looking at her
boyfriend in the (If it doesn't die now, you not getting any) kind of way.

*SURPRISE SURPRISE* It died.

This couple have also been resprosible for the 'Oooo I've just found the
secret door to all the treasure' (having been looking over his shoulder when
he wrote the scenario) syndrome.

I realise this being an AD&D reference, it isn't relevant in that respect,
but it does point out the girlfriend syndrome quite startkly.

CLAIMER.
Any similarity to persons living is purely intentional.......

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crackin |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant bolder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: "k.lin-student-civ-ghostgum-93087284" <kwlin@***.itd.uts.edu.au>
Subject: Re: unbalanced games
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 11:50:21 +1100 (EST)
> From listproc@********.itribe.net Tue Dec 5 06:20 EST 1995
> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 14:02:00 -0500
> Originator: shadowrn@********.itribe.net
> From: xanth@****.uky.edu (Terry Amburgey)
> To: Multiple recipients of list <shadowrn@********.itribe.net>
> Subject: unbalanced games
> X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
> X-Comment: Shadowrun List
>
> I hypothesize that gamers who scoff at the notion of game balance are more
> likely to have never played in an unbalanced game than gamers who take the
> concept seriously.
>
> Have those of you denigrating 'the holy game balance' [the generic 'you' not
> Shadowdancer specifically] ever played in a game where
>
> Scenario 1: the gaming style is vintage "Monty Haul"; low power PC's have
> every toy in the book (My third level fighter sheaths his vorpal blade so
> that he can use the Wand of Orcus...)

CWAN-1 [Completely Worthless Anicdote (spelling?... anyway I mean short story
from personal experience) Number 1].

We had a player whose AD&D characters always had straight 18's for attributes
(including 18/00 strength). He always assured us that he had randomly rolled
these scores. Our DM was usually generous, allowing us to each start with one
magic item each, rolled randomly on the tables. This player's character
(always a Cavelier), always started with a Vorpal Sword. So the DM had to
resort to using bigger & better baddies making it deadly for the rest of us.
In the end, this character fell victim to a tragic "friendly-fire" incident
[sly grin from me... much applause from others in the group].

So the moral of this story is...

Game Balance is good.. it is your friend... and if you try to unbalance my
game you had better watch your back...

Fade to the Black...

Kin
Message no. 8
From: kelly@*******.bloomington.in.us (Kelly Martin)
Subject: Re: unbalanced games
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 21:38:35 EST5
"A" == A Halliwell <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk> writes:

A> How's this for a G.M./Girlfriend story.

[story deleted]

this is why when my other half and i game together, we either both
play or we both GM as a team. i've found that the latter works quite
well, in that she's more creative and a better roleplayer, and i'm
better at game mechanics.

k.
--
kelly martin <kelly@*******.bloomington.in.us>

om.pha.lo.skep.sis n [NL, fr. Gk omphalos + skepsis examination--more
at spy] (1925): contemplation of one's navel as an aid to meditation;
also: inertia 2
Message no. 9
From: shadow@**.kensco.net (The Shadowdancer)
Subject: Re: unbalanced games
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 05:10:17 GMT
>From out of the Shadows, Terry Amburgey wispered:

>The Shadowdancer wrote:
>>Game balance has nothing to do with this question. GameBalance is the
>>last refuge of the mind that cannot logically or illogically
>>rationalize a concept.
>

>I hypothesize that gamers who scoff at the notion of game balance are more
>likely to have never played in an unbalanced game than gamers who take the
>concept seriously.
>

>Try it sometime, it sucks. Even I hate it, and I'm a munchkin. IMHO scoffing
>at game balance is the first impulse of an inexperienced gamer. If you've
>been gaming for years and you still think game balance is a dumb idea, feel
>free to send flames to my GM at JRWICK00@***.uky.edu Terry

Yet again, I see that a comment made on my part was taken totally out
of context. Mayhaps I should explain.

First of all, I never said that game balance is wrong. Yes I am an
experianced gamer, and Game Master. I have both played and judged
totally unbalanced games. An unbalanced game is like trusting the
Government: Everyone gets fragged in the end.

The intention of the message was this: If you, as a player or GM, has
to resort to Game Balance to explain a concept to someone, then you
have not thoroughly thought the situation out. If a player has a
question as to way something is the way it is, the GM should explain
it to that player, even if it means making it up. As long as it is
plausible and fits the game, then it works. Reasons of "it's that way
to preserve game balance" shows ineptitude and non-creative thinking.


-------------------------------------------------------------
Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever God they
follow will smile upon them.
I waltz through the Shadows with my Gods, and I lead!!
-The Shadowdancer (shadow@**.kensco.net)
Message no. 10
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: unbalanced games
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:40:51 +0000 (GMT)
>
>
> CWAN-1 [Completely Worthless Anicdote (spelling?... anyway I mean short story
> from personal experience) Number 1].
>
> We had a player whose AD&D characters always had straight 18's for attributes
> (including 18/00 strength). He always assured us that he had randomly rolled
> these scores. Our DM was usually generous, allowing us to each start with one
> magic item each, rolled randomly on the tables. This player's character
> (always a Cavelier), always started with a Vorpal Sword. So the DM had to
> resort to using bigger & better baddies making it deadly for the rest of us.
> In the end, this character fell victim to a tragic "friendly-fire" incident
> [sly grin from me... much applause from others in the group].
>
> So the moral of this story is...
>
> Game Balance is good.. it is your friend... and if you try to unbalance my
> game you had better watch your back...

NO! I think the noral of this story is never give a munchkin an even break!
OR.... Make sure he rolls all his characters in front of the D.M.
(And just to make it look like no-ones picking on him, make everyone alse as
well!)

>
> Fade to the Black...
>
> Kin
>
>


--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crackin |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant bolder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: unbalanced games
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 13:07:53 +0100
The Shadowdancer said on 4 Dec 95...

> If a player has a
> question as to way something is the way it is, the GM should explain
> it to that player, even if it means making it up. As long as it is
> plausible and fits the game, then it works. Reasons of "it's that way
> to preserve game balance" shows ineptitude and non-creative thinking.

I usually can't help myself from making up some or another elaborate
explanation for why something is the way it is, and adding at the end "but
of course the real reason is that FASA is very good at writing balanced
rules" :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is weer Sinterklaas!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 12
From: carmen sbordone <sbordo16@******.newpaltz.edu>
Subject: Re: unbalanced games
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:59:01 -0500 (EST)
>
> The intention of the message was this: If you, as a player or GM, has
> to resort to Game Balance to explain a concept to someone, then you
> have not thoroughly thought the situation out. If a player has a
> question as to way something is the way it is, the GM should explain
> it to that player, even if it means making it up. As long as it is
> plausible and fits the game, then it works. Reasons of "it's that way
> to preserve game balance" shows ineptitude and non-creative thinking.
>

I still disagree. Just because you tell your players its to preserve
game balance, does not mean that it shows inepitiude and non-creative
thinking. What some GM's say or do to preserve game balance doesn't make
them inept. They have different standards than you, and if they choose game
balance over plausiblity, well that's there perogative. Some GM's are less
experienced than you and would rather keep there world at alevel they could
handle.

carmen
Message no. 13
From: U-Gene <R3STG@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject: Re: unbalanced games
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 95 09:20:09 EST
carmen sbordone:
>What some Gm's say or do to preserve the game balance doesn't make them
>inept. They have different standards than you, and if they choose game
>balance over plausibility, well that's there perogative.

I believe this was a response to Shadowdancer. I think what he meant with
is that the game balance is good, but the GM should come up with some
kind of reason for it even if it sucks rather than saying "blah blah blah
because of game balance!" I don't think anyone in their right mind is
for unbalanced games. We have all seen/played/GMed them.

Just trying to wreck the communications barrier.

U-Gene << has fixed his hard drive and is looking for an internet >>
<< survice before his University mail time is over.... >>
Message no. 14
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: unbalanced games
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:57:58 +0000 (GMT)
On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Terry Amburgey wrote:

> OBNOXIUOSNESS ALERT!!!! IF YOU HAVE A THIN SKIN READ NO FURTHER
Ditto!

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I hypothesize that gamers who scoff at the notion of game balance are more
> likely to have never played in an unbalanced game than gamers who take the
> concept seriously.

I must admit that when I first read the comment which sparked this reply
I did feel it was a bit pretentious to write of any decision based upon
game balance as being lame -and I have been told this directly by someone
else as well.

While I see nothing wrong with trying to find an answer through
rationalisation, I also see nothing wrong with deciding upon an answer on
the basis of game balance. However I don't then leave it at "it happens
because it makes things balanced", instead I try to put a logical
explanation to whichever answer I chose. The prime example of this was
teh Grounding debate and my The Divide article which showed my preference
(based on game balance) yet left another logical explanation for the
other view -with NEITHER conflicting with teh rules per FASA.

And yes I have been subject to munchkin players -one guy whose favourite
quote was "Guess what, I've found another loophole!" (I kid you not).

Cheers!

PS - does anyone else think my sig looks like a flying saucer?

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun WWW site at http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun
-------------------------------------------------------
"We're falling from ecstacy, like Changlings."
-Fields of the Nephilim, Psychonaut Lib 111.
Message no. 15
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: unbalanced games
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:13:37 +0100
The Digital Mage said on 5 Dec 95...

> PS - does anyone else think my sig looks like a flying saucer?
>
> The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
> Shadowrun WWW site at http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun
> -------------------------------------------------------
> "We're falling from ecstacy, like Changlings."
> -Fields of the Nephilim, Psychonaut Lib 111.

Not to people using a proportional font :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Every day.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 16
From: Helge Diernaes <ecocide@***.econ.cbs.dk>
Subject: Re: unbalanced games
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 19:18:17 +0100 (MET)
>
> I must admit that when I first read the comment which sparked this reply
> I did feel it was a bit pretentious to write of any decision based upon
> game balance as being lame -and I have been told this directly by someone
> else as well.
>
> While I see nothing wrong with trying to find an answer through
> rationalisation, I also see nothing wrong with deciding upon an answer on
> the basis of game balance. However I don't then leave it at "it happens
> because it makes things balanced", instead I try to put a logical
> explanation to whichever answer I chose. The prime example of this was
> teh Grounding debate and my The Divide article which showed my preference
> (based on game balance) yet left another logical explanation for the
> other view -with NEITHER conflicting with teh rules per FASA.

Doesn't this mostly stem from GM-Player animosity?

By this I suggest, that for those who've got players who are able to
understand the game mechanics and know too that an arms race will
eventual lead to PC retirement and lowpower games, discussing an items
relevance will usually lead to an optimal solution.

I for one usually deems most actions/items possible/aquireable, only the
runs needed to attain the nessesary knowledge/items can be devious, very
much so, long, and be laden with unduly high target numbers.
After all, if something is possible but rare, this is usually because of
scarcity and difficulty.

Like, things may be theoretically possible......

> And yes I have been subject to munchkin players -one guy whose favourite
> quote was "Guess what, I've found another loophole!" (I kid you not).

Oh man.......

--
Silhouette


******************************--------------**********************************
" ?"
Myself, 1195
______________________________**************__________________________________

Helge Diernaes
ecocide@***.econ.cbs.dk

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about unbalanced games, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!