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Message no. 1
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:53:35 -0400
How does this work for people for handling Stun damage and astral forms?:

If an astral form is overcome by Stun damage (that is, takes Deadly Stun
damage) it is "disrupted." This only affects astral beings, astral objects
cannot be disrupted. A disrupted astral form immediately disappears from
astral space: astrally projecting mystics return to their physical body
(regardless of any barriers or distance seperating them), spirits vanish into
the depths of astral space. The being is unconscious (at Deadly level Stun
damage) and must recover normally. A magical character who is disrupted in
astral combat must immediately check for Magic Loss as if he had taken Deadly
Physical damage. A spirit disrupted in astral combat cannot reappear in
either astral space or the physical world for 28 days, minus the spirit's
Force.

The possible magic loss seems consistent with being defeated in a magical
duel, and will (hopefully) tend to cut down on the rules lawyers knocking
their own characters unconscious to allow them to escape from astral traps.

Steve K.
Message no. 2
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:41:06 -0500
At 18-Sep-97 wrote Steve Kenson:

>How does this work for people for handling Stun damage and astral forms?:

My take on stun damage and astrals.
If you are a projecting person, you get always physical.
Mainly because its not your whole body that is be damaged, its only the mental
image of yourself, so the damage will apear on the physical body, because
the body supports the link to the physical world.
Pure astral beeings get stun and physical per standart rules.

[snip]
Would clear up things.

--
Barbie


One lived hour is still living.
Message no. 3
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:59:55 EST
> How does this work for people for handling Stun damage and astral
> forms?:

<Snip>

Sounds great. Be sure to define the difference between Astral Forms
and Astral Objects (or whatever terms you used). I understood, but
I've been playing this since .....since....since....since I lost my
memory. :)

While you are on an astral kick, please talk about what area effect
spells and critter powers look like in astral space, if they can be
attacked, grounded (I used the "g" word!) through and all that. Or
even if they can be seen.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 4
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:19:28 -0800
At 15:53 9/18/97 -0400, Steve Kenson wrote:
>If an astral form is overcome by Stun damage (that is, takes Deadly Stun
>damage) it is "disrupted."
> A disrupted astral form immediately disappears from
>astral space: astrally projecting mystics return to their physical body
>(regardless of any barriers or distance seperating them)
> The being is unconscious (at Deadly level Stun
>damage) and must recover normally. A magical character who is disrupted in
>astral combat must immediately check for Magic Loss as if he had taken Deadly
>Physical damage.

I like the risk of Magic loss for pulling that stunt: it means that you
*can* instantly get back to your body if someone's made off with it or
you're trapped in a ward, but you're going to be damned reluctant to do
so.

However, I'd like to see a different set of rules for magic loss. It'd
be nice if there's *always* a possibility you can escape-- someone who's
made it to grade 6 initiation shouldn't be automatically stuck with magic
loss when they take a Deadly wound. (The it-hasn't-come-up-yet-so-we-haven't-
made-it-a-house-rule-yet that we've been batting around in my group is that
you can burn permanent karma pool dice to drop your effective magic rating
for the check *before* the check is made. So if your 2nd degree initiate
with Magic 8 is about to roll for Magic loss, he can burn a karma pool die
and his probability of loss drops to that of someone with Magic 2.)

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%
Message no. 5
From: Shaun Hall <Hard.master@********.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 03:36:30 -0700
----------
> From: Steve Kenson
>
> How does this work for people for handling Stun damage and astral forms?:
>
> If an astral form is overcome by Stun damage (that is, takes Deadly Stun
> damage) it is "disrupted." This only affects astral beings, astral
objects
> cannot be disrupted. A disrupted astral form immediately disappears from
> astral space: astrally projecting mystics return to their physical body
> (regardless of any barriers or distance seperating them), spirits vanish
into
> the depths of astral space. The being is unconscious (at Deadly level
Stun
> damage) and must recover normally. A magical character who is disrupted
in
> astral combat must immediately check for Magic Loss as if he had taken
Deadly
> Physical damage. A spirit disrupted in astral combat cannot reappear in
> either astral space or the physical world for 28 days, minus the spirit's
> Force.

I'm not too keen on the thought of magic loss for stun damage. It is
possible to cause physical damage in the astral plane, so why enhance the
effects of stun damage? Why not just bar the mage from the astral plane for
the same 28 days less one day per point of magic stat ( or willpower point
). For that matter you could claim that the astral beating caused the mage
to form a mental block against going astral. In order to overcome it the
mage would have to make a willpower test (TN [6+1] per such instance).
After several such instances a mage would really have a hard time with
astral projection. This would also eliminate the temptations Rules Lawyers
might face.

Shaun
Message no. 6
From: Scott Roberts <shayd@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:49:29 -0400
On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Shaun Hall wrote:

> ----------
> > From: Steve Kenson
> >
> > How does this work for people for handling Stun damage and astral forms?:
> >
> > If an astral form is overcome by Stun damage (that is, takes Deadly Stun
> > damage) it is "disrupted." This only affects astral beings, astral
> objects
*snip*

Call me stupid, but how do you take stun damage while astral? All damage
(to my knowledge) done to an astral form is physical--physical drain,
physical attacks. About the only way I can think of an astral form taking
stun damage is via a specific Stun-affecting spell (stun cloud and the
like). Am I missing something? (Oh, add some bioware that does Stun to
that.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You Don't Like My Point Of View, You Think That I'm Insane..."
Scott "Shayd" Roberts
shayd@**.cybernex.net ** http://www.cybernex.net/shayd
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:08:43 -0700
---Steve Kenson wrote:
>
> The possible magic loss seems consistent with being defeated in a
magical
> duel, and will (hopefully) tend to cut down on the rules lawyers
knocking
> their own characters unconscious to allow them to escape from astral
traps.

I like this part. It also will cut down on those mages that tell the
sammy, if my body starts to twitch or bruise slap me hard 'til I
return to my body. ;o)

-== Loki ==-
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Message no. 8
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:32:25 -0700
Steve Kenson wrote:

> How does this work for people for handling Stun damage and astral forms?:
>
> If an astral form is overcome by Stun damage (that is, takes Deadly Stun
> damage) it is "disrupted." This only affects astral beings, astral objects
> cannot be disrupted. A disrupted astral form immediately disappears from
> astral space: astrally projecting mystics return to their physical body
> (regardless of any barriers or distance seperating them), spirits vanish into
> the depths of astral space. The being is unconscious (at Deadly level Stun
> damage) and must recover normally. A magical character who is disrupted in
> astral combat must immediately check for Magic Loss as if he had taken Deadly
> Physical damage. A spirit disrupted in astral combat cannot reappear in
> either astral space or the physical world for 28 days, minus the spirit's
> Force.



> The possible magic loss seems consistent with being defeated in a magical
> duel, and will (hopefully) tend to cut down on the rules lawyers knocking
> their own characters unconscious to allow them to escape from astral traps.

I'm hesitant to call for magic loss for Deadly stun in astral space, though
I can't really argue why. :/ It just seems off to me.

Tho making a temp loss for the 28 days (using the time span that spirits are
disrupted for) might be a bit of an idea. And not a lose 1 point loss
either, that invites the go unconcious and escape idea.

Heh. How about no magic rating for 28 days minus the magicians force?

(Plus ratings of any barriers they had to cross for their astral body to get
home?)

*ouch*

And Loki wrote:

> I like this part. It also will cut down on those mages that tell the
> sammy, if my body starts to twitch or bruise slap me hard 'til I
> return to my body. ;o)

I always played that if someone slapped the mage while astral, it is a
physical wound to the body, and the mage could die. (Going from the 'any
physical wound to an astrally projecting character...' from one of the
books.) IMO, if you have to slap a mage hard enough so he returns to his
body, you've hit him hrad enough to do some real damage...

--

Dvixen Code-word : Weevil-chuck. dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
Message no. 9
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:52:41 -0400
> From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
> Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 1:08 AM

> ---Steve Kenson wrote:

> > The possible magic loss seems consistent with being defeated in a
> magical
> > duel, and will (hopefully) tend to cut down on the rules lawyers
> knocking
> > their own characters unconscious to allow them to escape from astral
> traps.

> I like this part. It also will cut down on those mages that tell the
> sammy, if my body starts to twitch or bruise slap me hard 'til I
> return to my body. ;o)

I like the chance of Magic Loss as well. It ties in well with the
all-Drain-is-Physical, etc. that exists in the rules. The Astral is a
dangerous place to get into a fight. And I think this may just be the
solution I was looking for to overcome the possibility of mages trying to
knock themselves out in order to get out of a bad situation in the Astral,
despite the fact that I feel that an unconscious Astral body should
automatically return to the Mage's physical body.

This takes care of everything nicely. :) Thanks for the idea :)

However, I disagree with the above statement about this affecting others
waking you up by slapping you, etc. I don't think this should be held
against the Magician. I think it's smart to plan ahead like that, and as
long as the slap doesn't knock the Mage unconscious, it shouldn't cause him
to possibly suffer Magic Loss, IMO.

> -== Loki ==-

Justin :)
Message no. 10
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:30:34 -0400
Scott Roberts <shayd@********.NET> wrote:
>Call me stupid, but how do you take stun damage while astral? All damage
>(to my knowledge) done to an astral form is physical--physical drain,
>physical attacks. About the only way I can think of an astral form taking
>stun damage is via a specific Stun-affecting spell (stun cloud and the
>like). Am I missing something? (Oh, add some bioware that does Stun to
>that.)

Intelligent astral forms (like metahumans and spirits) have the choice of
inflicting Stun or Physical damage in astral combat (I don't have my SR book
handy right now to give you a page reference. It's under Astral Combat).
Non-intelligent astral entities (like spells, foci or barriers) always do
Physical damage because they don't know any better. There is also the matter
of Stun spells you mentioned. It's a rare occourance, which is probably why
nobody bothered to figure out what happens to an unconscious astral form.

I suppose the simplest fix would be to say all astral damage is Physical and
be done it with, but I like the idea of astral forms being able to engage in
non-lethal combat for the purposes of duels and things like that.

Steve
Message no. 11
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:50:10 EDT
On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:53:35 -0400 Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
writes:
>How does this work for people for handling Stun damage and astral
forms?:

<Snip>

>The possible magic loss seems consistent with being defeated in a
magical
>duel, and will (hopefully) tend to cut down on the rules lawyers
knocking
>their own characters unconscious to allow them to escape from astral
traps.

Sounds about perfect to me. It could be rationalized in the game
universe that you're extending so much of your energies into controlling
your surroundings in astral combat that if you lose consciousness, not
all of your energy will return to your body.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook
quote.

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Message no. 12
From: James Paul Morgan <jpmorgan@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:51:14 -0600
On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Scott Roberts wrote:

> Call me stupid, but how do you take stun damage while astral? All damage
> (to my knowledge) done to an astral form is physical--physical drain,
> physical attacks. About the only way I can think of an astral form taking
> stun damage is via a specific Stun-affecting spell (stun cloud and the
> like). Am I missing something? (Oh, add some bioware that does Stun to
> that.)
>

Yes, drain is physical in astral.

Any attacking mage or elemental can choose to do stun instead of physical
damage. Spells, wards, and such always do physical damage when attacked
in astral because they don't have the ability to "choose" to do stun.


See ya around the Mulberry bush.

--James

:)
Message no. 13
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:41:53 GMT
Steve Kenson writes
>
> The possible magic loss seems consistent with being defeated in a magical
> duel, and will (hopefully) tend to cut down on the rules lawyers knocking
> their own characters unconscious to allow them to escape from astral traps.
>
I think this might be a good idea. It allows the 'knock myself out'
to avoid auto kills (astral autokill traps can be built if you are
cunning) though a small room trip wire and IPE grenade does about the
sam to sammies while stopping abuse.

Mark

Further Reading

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