Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 23:16:01 EST
OK all you firearms/military people out there, how feasible is it to
mount something on the order of a roomsweeper under an assault rifle?

Basically something to fire shotgun fletchette rounds (either one at a
time or maybe a small internal magazine) at maximum choke much in the
same way that a grenade launcher is fired. It would largely function as,
well, a "room sweeper" - something short range with a good area to clear
rooms or take out close range opponents.

~Tim
Message no. 2
From: Mark McKenna <mmckenn@*****.BGSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 23:37:03 -0500
On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Tim P Cooper wrote:

> OK all you firearms/military people out there, how feasible is it to
> mount something on the order of a roomsweeper under an assault rifle?
>
> Basically something to fire shotgun fletchette rounds (either one at a
> time or maybe a small internal magazine) at maximum choke much in the
> same way that a grenade launcher is fired. It would largely function as,
> well, a "room sweeper" - something short range with a good area to clear
> rooms or take out close range opponents.
>
> ~Tim
>
Tim, try getting customized grenade style rounds for a mini-grenade
launcher, its cost efective in the long run, and more than likely packs a
bigger punch. The US Army usus something very similar in thier 20mm
machine cannon that is effectively a huge shotgun shell, if we can do it
now why not then. In game terms I think all you would need to find is a
armorer or weaponsmith and they can make those customize rounds, like get
an A22M2 assualt rifle with the mini-grenade launcher can these rounds
made for it, sound like a good idea everybody?
McKenna
******************************************************************************


Mark W. McKenna Quote:
920 E. Wooster Apt. #4 "Oops I'll call you in a sec..."
Bowling Green, Ohio -the 7 second phone call
43402 <Mr. White>
(419)353-2405 Hobbies:Avid Shdowrun and Rifts RPG player

******************************************************************************
Message no. 3
From: James Paulsen <lowfyr@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 22:40:05 -0600
Tim P Cooper wrote:
>
> OK all you firearms/military people out there, how feasible is it to
> mount something on the order of a roomsweeper under an assault rifle?
>
> Basically something to fire shotgun fletchette rounds (either one at a
> time or maybe a small internal magazine) at maximum choke much in the
> same way that a grenade launcher is fired. It would largely function as,
> well, a "room sweeper" - something short range with a good area to clear
> rooms or take out close range opponents.
>
> ~Tim


It is entirely possible. Perhaps not a Roomsweeper depending on what a
Roomsweeper looks like, but I have personally seen and fired a M16-A2
with a pump-action twelve guage mounted under-barrel. IMHO it was
fragg'n worthless, so if it were a player in my game, I'd throw a
healthy "+" on the TN. But after all, if you can mount a single-shot
grenade launcher (M203), why not something smaller like a shotgun?

Jim
Message no. 4
From: "Q (not from Star Trek)" <Scott.E.Meyer@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 22:53:42 -0600
On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Tim P Cooper wrote:

> OK all you firearms/military people out there, how feasible is it to
> mount something on the order of a roomsweeper under an assault rifle?
>
> Basically something to fire shotgun fletchette rounds (either one at a
> time or maybe a small internal magazine) at maximum choke much in the
> same way that a grenade launcher is fired. It would largely function as,
> well, a "room sweeper" - something short range with a good area to clear
> rooms or take out close range opponents.
>

I do believe Paolo's got something like that on his page. It's an
underbarrel pump-action shotgun you can mount on your assault rifle. I've
got a character who uses one of those (although i haven't actually ran him
yet). Can't recall the address atm, but if you do a search for shadowrun
web pages, i'm sure you'll find it.

-Q


> ~Tim
>

---------------------------------------
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human
stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
-Albert Einstein

Scott "Q" Meyer
Scott.E.Meyer@*******.edu
http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:30:45 +0100
Tim P Cooper said on 23:16/17 Feb 97...

> OK all you firearms/military people out there, how feasible is it to
> mount something on the order of a roomsweeper under an assault rifle?

It's already been done -- there is a custom mount for tehe M16, allowing a
Remington 870 shotgun to be fitted underneath the barrel. The 870 is
modified by removal of the stock, and the M16's magazine is used as a
pistol grip to fire the shotgun. The thing is made by Ciener and called
the "Ultimate."
I've never seen a good picture, though one of the guys in Predator (the
Arnie movie) seems to have one.

If you're looking for this kind of thing for Shadowrun, check out the UBS
weapons in Running Gear. (And for the record, I designed those before I'd
ever heard of someone mounting a shotgun under an assault rifle IRL.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Oh, paradise... on my TV...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 6
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 16:38:31 +0000
> From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
> Subject: Under-barrel accessories

> OK all you firearms/military people out there, how feasible is it to
> mount something on the order of a roomsweeper under an assault rifle?
>
> Basically something to fire shotgun fletchette rounds (either one at a

The M203 (M-16 with 40mm grenade launcher) has a flechette round that
is designed to be fired directly as a shotgun. I've never had the
opportunity to fire one of those rounds, so I don't know how
effective they are, but I'd guess they are pretty darned good.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 7
From: John Chesser <shaggy68@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 23:55:27 -0600
----------
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
> Date: Tuesday, February 18, 1997 4:30 AM
>
> Tim P Cooper said on 23:16/17 Feb 97...
>
> > OK all you firearms/military people out there, how feasible is it to
> > mount something on the order of a roomsweeper under an assault rifle?
>
> It's already been done -- there is a custom mount for tehe M16, allowing
a
> Remington 870 shotgun to be fitted underneath the barrel. The 870 is
> modified by removal of the stock, and the M16's magazine is used as a
> pistol grip to fire the shotgun. The thing is made by Ciener and called
> the "Ultimate."
> I've never seen a good picture, though one of the guys in Predator (the
> Arnie movie) seems to have one.
>
> If you're looking for this kind of thing for Shadowrun, check out the UBS
> weapons in Running Gear. (And for the record, I designed those before I'd
> ever heard of someone mounting a shotgun under an assault rifle IRL.)

Yep, you sure did. When I saw the post I referred quickly to it, flipped
through it, and couldn't find it so I read all the posts. I was about to
say "ask Gurth, I think he may know something about that." But, seems you
beat me to it.

John
Message no. 8
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 14:37:32 +0000
On 18 Feb 97 at 16:38, Droopy wrote:
[snip]
> The M203 (M-16 with 40mm grenade launcher) has a flechette round that
> is designed to be fired directly as a shotgun. I've never had the
> opportunity to fire one of those rounds, so I don't know how
> effective they are, but I'd guess they are pretty darned good.
Would that be the same ammo to be used with the (*uh...* I think:) M-79
to use it as "shotgun" (as used in Vietnam) ? I read those weren't good
for the barrel, as well as really effective up to 15 or 25 meters
(sorry, the book I have this from is still at my ex-girlfriend :-( so I
can't check right now...)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 9
From: James Paulsen <lowfyr@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 10:20:11 -0600
Sascha Pabst wrote:
>
> On 18 Feb 97 at 16:38, Droopy wrote:
> [snip]
> > The M203 (M-16 with 40mm grenade launcher) has a flechette round that
> > is designed to be fired directly as a shotgun. I've never had the
> > opportunity to fire one of those rounds, so I don't know how
> > effective they are, but I'd guess they are pretty darned good.

> Would that be the same ammo to be used with the (*uh...* I think:) M-79
> to use it as "shotgun" (as used in Vietnam) ? I read those weren't good
> for the barrel, as well as really effective up to 15 or 25 meters

> Sascha

Yes, they fire exactly the same round :)

Jim
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:55:09 +0100
Droopy said on 16:38/18 Feb 97...

> The M203 (M-16 with 40mm grenade launcher) has a flechette round that
> is designed to be fired directly as a shotgun. I've never had the
> opportunity to fire one of those rounds, so I don't know how
> effective they are, but I'd guess they are pretty darned good.

AFAIK, it's rather effective at short range (20 balls of 6 mm diameter)
but its effective range of 15 meters (max. 30 m or so) is so low it's
only useful in urban combat, or maybe for guarding prisoners (I'm thinking
now of a picture of a US soldier pointing an M79 at a Vietnamese at a
meter range).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If you'll need me, I'll be nowhere.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 11
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:54:29 EST
On Mon, 17 Feb 1997 23:16:01 EST Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM> writes:
>OK all you firearms/military people out there, how feasible is it to
>mount something on the order of a roomsweeper under an assault rifle?
>
>Basically something to fire shotgun fletchette rounds (either one at a
>time or maybe a small internal magazine) at maximum choke much in the
>same way that a grenade launcher is fired. It would largely function
>as, well, a "room sweeper" - something short range with a good area to
>clear rooms or take out close range opponents.
>
>~Tim

You might check the gear list Paul Adams put together a while back...it
has a "rail mount" setup for use with a cut-down Defiance, which is
mounted under the barrel of the other gun and also a flechette canister
round for a grenade launcher...also, Gurth has several under-barrel
shotguns in one of his Plastic Warriors books (Paranoid Animals, I
think)...hope they didn't mind my plugging their stuff for them:)

BTW, Paul Adams gear list is available at Jame Meiers site at
http://www.arc.unm.edu/~james/shadowrun/other/SRII_gear.htm

and Gurth has his stuff at http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html (I
think)

Wow! I managed to plug three listmembers without pluggin my own site!
Which is why I've got links to the gear list, Gurth's page, and James'
page at my page:)

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 12
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 03:12:11 +0000
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Organization: Plastic Warriors
> Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories

> AFAIK, it's rather effective at short range (20 balls of 6 mm diameter)
> but its effective range of 15 meters (max. 30 m or so) is so low it's
> only useful in urban combat, or maybe for guarding prisoners (I'm thinking
> now of a picture of a US soldier pointing an M79 at a Vietnamese at a
> meter range).

It was designed for MOUT, IIRC. If you ever want to see something
scary, look at the damage done by a flechette round from a 90mm RR.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 13
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 03:12:11 +0000
> From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
> Organization: Authors of OL.TXT
> Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories

> Would that be the same ammo to be used with the (*uh...* I think:) M-79
> to use it as "shotgun" (as used in Vietnam) ? I read those weren't good
> for the barrel, as well as really effective up to 15 or 25 meters

No shot/flechette round is good for a rifled barrel. They tear up
the rifling every time you fire them. That's why shotgun slugs are
rifled and the barrels are smooth.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 14
From: Shawn Baumgartner <Breakdown@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 03:26:25 -0500
In reply to Droopy's comments on shtguns and their shells:

You ever used deer shot?

Shawn
Remanicing about the "Dragon's Breath" round that never got to enjoy the
popularity it deserved.
Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 13:21:53 +0100
Droopy said on 3:12/20 Feb 97...

> > Would that be the same ammo to be used with the (*uh...* I think:) M-79
> > to use it as "shotgun" (as used in Vietnam) ? I read those weren't
good
> > for the barrel, as well as really effective up to 15 or 25 meters
>
> No shot/flechette round is good for a rifled barrel. They tear up
> the rifling every time you fire them. That's why shotgun slugs are
> rifled and the barrels are smooth.

40 mm grenade launchers, though, have rifled barrels but the shot rounds
are not quote the same as in a (smoothbore) shotgun -- the round consists
of a cup that holds the metal balls; this is fired as a single projectile,
and when the cup leaves the barrels it falls away (it has air scoops for
increased drag), and the shot travels on.

And later...

> It was designed for MOUT, IIRC. If you ever want to see something
> scary, look at the damage done by a flechette round from a 90mm RR.

If we're going that way, how about a 152 mm cannister round from an M551
Sheridan? :) 36 kills with 2 rounds, IIRC...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And I wonder what's in a day...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 16
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:04:22 +0000
> From: Shawn Baumgartner <Breakdown@*****.NET>
> Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories

> You ever used deer shot?

Never hunted anything with more than two legs.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 17
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:04:22 +0000
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Organization: Plastic Warriors
> Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories

> 40 mm grenade launchers, though, have rifled barrels but the shot rounds
> are not quote the same as in a (smoothbore) shotgun -- the round consists
> of a cup that holds the metal balls; this is fired as a single projectile,
> and when the cup leaves the barrels it falls away (it has air scoops for
> increased drag), and the shot travels on.

Makes sense to me.

> If we're going that way, how about a 152 mm cannister round from an M551
> Sheridan? :) 36 kills with 2 rounds, IIRC...

Oh, so the 82nd did have those for something more than holding their
gear. They are nifty little toys.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 18
From: dhinkley@***.ORG
Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 00:53:19 +0000
> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 23:16:01 EST
> From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
> Subject: Under-barrel accessories


> OK all you firearms/military people out there, how feasible is it to
> mount something on the order of a roomsweeper under an assault rifle?

A while back I ran across a discription of a cut down 12 gauge pump
shotgun fitted with an adapter so it could be mounted under an
assault rifle. But it was not put there because of the shot pattern
but rather for the effectiveness of shotgun slugs on door hinges and
locks. The SAS discovered that a slug fired at a the hinges and lock
would dismount most doors. The main problem was that the guy with
the shotgun needed to change weapons before entering, hence the idea
behind underbarrel shotgun.



David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 19
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Under-barrel accessories
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 13:44:00 -0600
On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Gurth wrote:

> Droopy said on 3:12/20 Feb 97...
> > It was designed for MOUT, IIRC. If you ever want to see something
> > scary, look at the damage done by a flechette round from a 90mm RR.
> If we're going that way, how about a 152 mm cannister round from an M551
> Sheridan? :) 36 kills with 2 rounds, IIRC...

Or the Beehive (flechette) round for the 105mm and 155mm
howitzers. They had varible time fuses so you can eather fire them in
indirect mode were the flechettes are released as the shell arcs back down
on the target, thereby spreading out and beating a large area. Or have
them realeased near the muzzle to form the worlds largest shotgun:). They
did very well in Veitnam in last ditch attempts to stop VC attacks on
artilery bases as well as being usfull for clearing the brush from the
kill zone around a base. IIRC out to about a 100m or so the flechettes
had the power to go through a steel helmet the head inside and out the
other side of the helmet! now thats penatration. bit of over kill for SR
though.:)

Tom-the-military-buff-bookworm
Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Under-barrel accessories, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!