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Message no. 1
From: "J. G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:03:34 +0100
Hya all, I've got a question that's been buggin' me for a while now....

If someone has a certain part of cyberware, and he/she/it wants to upgrade
it. Let's take for example Wired Reflexes lvl. 1 to lvl. 2. Should he/she/it
pay the complete essence cost of the lvl. 2 WR, or only the difference
between lvl. 1 and lvl. 2?
And, if someone wants to ditch his cyberware, and he/she/it does that, does
he/she/it get the essence back?

This might be in the Main book, but I think that I either have overlooked
it, or It ain't there...

CU'all'round,

Jod/Jeroen/ikke
chatin@*******.nl
http://www.euronet.nl/users/chatin/index.htm
IDM
Male
Message no. 2
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:23:40 +0100
>Hya all, I've got a question that's been buggin' me for a while now....
Hi,

>If someone has a certain part of cyberware, and he/she/it wants to upgrade
>it. Let's take for example Wired Reflexes lvl. 1 to lvl. 2. Should he/she/it
>pay the complete essence cost of the lvl. 2 WR, or only the difference
>between lvl. 1 and lvl. 2?
>
>And, if someone wants to ditch his cyberware, and he/she/it does that, does
>he/she/it get the essence back?
>
>This might be in the Main book, but I think that I either have overlooked
>it, or It ain't there...

I would say FASA used to consider there's no upgrade. That means you drop
your old cyberware (wired 1) then install new cyberware (wired 2). Because
you don't recover essence, if the cyberware costs less essence than the
first, you don't recover any essence. If the new essence cost is higher,
you lose the difference between the new cost and the old. I would state
(that seems logical to me but since I don't think it's stated anywhere...
:) that the new cyberware must be of the same type than the first to get
this *reduction*, else you must pay the total essence cost.
For exemple, if you did have dermal plating 3 (E 1.5) and replace by wired
1, you would pay 1 essence point because wired reflexes have nothing
similar with the dermal plating.

Now, you could use some kind of enhancment to cyberware. As such, you would
pay the difference between the 2 level (with something like a 10% increase
for more realism... :). However, I wouldn't change the essence rules.


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
Message no. 3
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:30:52 +0000
> If someone has a certain part of cyberware, and he/she/it wants to upgrade
> it. Let's take for example Wired Reflexes lvl. 1 to lvl. 2. Should he/she/it
> pay the complete essence cost of the lvl. 2 WR, or only the difference
> between lvl. 1 and lvl. 2?
> And, if someone wants to ditch his cyberware, and he/she/it does that, does
> he/she/it get the essence back?
>
> This might be in the Main book, but I think that I either have overlooked
> it, or It ain't there...

I believe it's discussed in Street Samurai. What happens is that
1) Remove old cyberware.

This leaves an essence "hole" (You don't get the essence back, but
you can put stuff in the hole without losing further essence).

So dropping Wired 1 leaves an essence hole of 2.

2) Put in new Cyberware

Putting in Wired 2 takes 3 essence. 2 from the hole, and 1 from the
victim, er, person.

This assumes the doctor doesn't cause any additional loss from
surgery.

Also, this assumes that you can remove the cyber...I seem to remember
reading that extremely invasive treatments (like Wired) couldn't be
removed, but later products (such as Cybertechnology) seem to have
ignored that. Also, some things, (like boosted reflexes) are just
permanent and can't be undone.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 4
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:32:52 EST
In a message dated 98-02-03 11:19:17 EST, wgallas@*****.FR writes:

> I would say FASA used to consider there's no upgrade. That means you drop
> your old cyberware (wired 1) then install new cyberware (wired 2). Because
> you don't recover essence, if the cyberware costs less essence than the
> first, you don't recover any essence. If the new essence cost is higher,
> you lose the difference between the new cost and the old. I would state
> (that seems logical to me but since I don't think it's stated anywhere...
> :) that the new cyberware must be of the same type than the first to get
> this *reduction*, else you must pay the total essence cost.
> For exemple, if you did have dermal plating 3 (E 1.5) and replace by wired
> 1, you would pay 1 essence point because wired reflexes have nothing
> similar with the dermal plating.

Well, actually, they did speak of Upgrades and changes, in Shadowtech and
Cybertechnology both. If you have a piece of cyberware removed, it leaves a
"shadow spot", no essence retained, but if additional cyberware is put in, and
it doesn't exceed this "shadow loss", then no additional essence is lost.

As for a "true upgrade", as in making something up to SOTA (by comparison),
there isn't much of one to be honest. Wired Reflexes vs. Wired
Reflexes/Reflex Trigger is about the only real upgrade I've seen (ignoring the
Cranialdeck stuff of course).

> Now, you could use some kind of enhancment to cyberware. As such, you would
> pay the difference between the 2 level (with something like a 10% increase
> for more realism... :). However, I wouldn't change the essence rules.

realism aside, that's called shafting in my book. A street sam (or anyone
that uses cyberware for that matter) is already getting a limitation to how
much they can have put in them cybernetically. There is no reason to make
this limitation more limitating. All IMHO of course.
-K
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:37:04 -0700
J. G. du Chatinier wrote:
/
/ Hya all, I've got a question that's been buggin' me for a while now....
/
/ If someone has a certain part of cyberware, and he/she/it wants to upgrade
/ it. Let's take for example Wired Reflexes lvl. 1 to lvl. 2. Should he/she/it
/ pay the complete essence cost of the lvl. 2 WR, or only the difference
/ between lvl. 1 and lvl. 2?
/ And, if someone wants to ditch his cyberware, and he/she/it does that, does
/ he/she/it get the essence back?
/
/ This might be in the Main book, but I think that I either have overlooked
/ it, or It ain't there...

Mostly it ain't there.

I think it says somewhere that when you lose essence to cyberware you
don't get it back if you have the cyberware removed.

There are no rules about how to treat essence if someone upgrades a
piece of cyberware.

Also, some pieces of cyberware (can't recall which right now) can't
be upgraded.

So, having said that, I allow cyberware to be removed and it leaves
an essence hole that can be filled with other cyberware. If a
character had his Wired Reflexes III removed it would leave a 5 point
essence hole that he could fill with up to 5 points of other
cyberware without affecting his essence. His essence would still be
1 though even if he only put in 3 points of cyberware.

If a character removes cyberware and doesn't replace it I allow lost
essence to come back over time (1 point a year). The way I look at
it is that (for whatever reason) cyberware acts as a wedge between a
character's life force and the physical world. If the wedge is
removed the rift between the character's life force and his body will
heal (albiet slowly) just like a physical wound. As with a physical
wound if the character doesn't take care of himself the rift won't
heal. The healing rate of the rift is affected more by
emotional/psychic trauma then physical trauma.

-David
--
"Write it on your heart that every day is the best day of the year"
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 6
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 04:13:09 +1100
> I would say FASA used to consider there's no upgrade. That means you drop
> your old cyberware (wired 1) then install new cyberware (wired 2). Because
> you don't recover essence, if the cyberware costs less essence than the

Part of the problem with this approach comes when you're dealing with
Bioware, since Neural Bioware in particular can't be removed.

Say at character creation you give your Character Synaptic Accelerators
level 1. Later on, when the character hits it rich, they want to upgrade
to level 2. It must be possible to upgrade without replacing, since the
original stuff can't be removed in the first place (but the bioware
doesn't come with caveats the way Boosted Reflexes did).


Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Founding member of THE NADBUSTERS!
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 04:14:46 +1100
> As for a "true upgrade", as in making something up to SOTA (by comparison),
> there isn't much of one to be honest. Wired Reflexes vs. Wired
> Reflexes/Reflex Trigger is about the only real upgrade I've seen (ignoring the
> Cranialdeck stuff of course).

Don't forget upgrading if you bought low-rating stuff at Character
creation...


Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Founding member of THE NADBUSTERS!
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:20:25 EST
In a message dated 98-02-03 12:16:25 EST, jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU writes:

> > As for a "true upgrade", as in making something up to SOTA (by
comparison),
> > there isn't much of one to be honest. Wired Reflexes vs. Wired
> > Reflexes/Reflex Trigger is about the only real upgrade I've seen
(ignoring
> the
> > Cranialdeck stuff of course).
>
> Don't forget upgrading if you bought low-rating stuff at Character
> creation...
>
Well okay, there is that, Alpha, Beta, Delta, ???? What's next...don't ask
Binder, he ain't telling ;)

-K
Message no. 9
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:24:43 -0600
Brett Borger wrote:
>

>
> I believe it's discussed in Street Samurai. What happens is that
> 1) Remove old cyberware.
>
> This leaves an essence "hole" (You don't get the essence back, but
> you can put stuff in the hole without losing further essence).
>
> So dropping Wired 1 leaves an essence hole of 2.
>
> 2) Put in new Cyberware
>
> Putting in Wired 2 takes 3 essence. 2 from the hole, and 1 from the
> victim, er, person.

This would be the way it is done once the essence is gone it's gone for
good
but you can take out the old cyber and put new and better stuff in.


> This assumes the doctor doesn't cause any additional loss from
> surgery.

It is best to hire a first rate doctor to work on you when you are
having
something like a major cyberware upgrade done.

> Also, this assumes that you can remove the cyber...I seem to remember
> reading that extremely invasive treatments (like Wired) couldn't be
> removed, but later products (such as Cybertechnology) seem to have
> ignored that. Also, some things, (like boosted reflexes) are just
> permanent and can't be undone.

Now here is something to consider the Street sams catalog is from 2050
and
years behind the stuff in both cybertech and Shadowtech figure things
have changed and
all that good stuff and cyber can be changed around with a good enough
doctor doing the
work. Then again it could kill you having those wired relexes pulled and
getting new stuff
put in...
]
--

Never Appeal to a man's "better nature" he may not have one.
Invoking his self-interest gives you more leverage.
Message no. 10
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 04:31:41 +1100
> > Don't forget upgrading if you bought low-rating stuff at Character
> > creation...
> >
> Well okay, there is that, Alpha, Beta, Delta, ???? What's next...don't ask
> Binder, he ain't telling ;)

I actually meant upgrading to that lovely VCR 3 with the profits from
selling the Aztechnology Pyramid from the pissy little VCR 1 you got at
startup.

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Founding member of THE NADBUSTERS!
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:46:14 +0100
>> Now, you could use some kind of enhancment to cyberware. As such, you
would
>> pay the difference between the 2 level (with something like a 10% increase
>> for more realism... :). However, I wouldn't change the essence rules.
>
>realism aside, that's called shafting in my book. A street sam (or anyone
>that uses cyberware for that matter) is already getting a limitation to how
>much they can have put in them cybernetically. There is no reason to make
>this limitation more limitating. All IMHO of course.

On a game balance view, you're totally right ! :)


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
Message no. 12
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:29:13 EST
In a message dated 98-02-03 12:40:58 EST, jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU writes:

> I actually meant upgrading to that lovely VCR 3 with the profits from
> selling the Aztechnology Pyramid from the pissy little VCR 1 you got at
> startup.
>
Oh, those kind of upgrades (now feeling like Dave did ;)
-K
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:15:55 +0100
J. G. du Chatinier said on 17:03/ 3 Feb 98...

> Hya all, I've got a question that's been buggin' me for a while now....
>
> If someone has a certain part of cyberware, and he/she/it wants to upgrade
> it. Let's take for example Wired Reflexes lvl. 1 to lvl. 2. Should he/she/it
> pay the complete essence cost of the lvl. 2 WR, or only the difference
> between lvl. 1 and lvl. 2?
> And, if someone wants to ditch his cyberware, and he/she/it does that, does
> he/she/it get the essence back?
>
> This might be in the Main book, but I think that I either have overlooked
> it, or It ain't there...

It's not in the main book. The Street Samurai Catalog, page 97, tells us
that to upgrade cyberware, the old piece has to be removed. This suggests
that a new system (most likely higher-rated) must then be installed.
However this "Upgrading Cyberware" section only really talks about
removing the old bit :/

IMHO (this isn't really backed up by any rules, just by some common sense)
upgrading cyberware doesn't require removal of the old system; instead it
is rebuilt to the higher rating while inside the user's body. For this,
I'd charge the player the difference in nuyen cost between the two items,
plus something like 10%. The Essence cost is then also equal to the
difference between the two systems, but I'd base the severity of the
surgery on the full Essence cost of the system being installed.

For example, going from a rating 2 encephalon to a rating 3 encephalon
would cost (75000 - 40000) x 1.1 = 35000 + 3500 = 38500 nuyen, and .25
Essence, but the operation would be Major Invasive (and thus cost 25000Y)
because the Essence cost of a rating 3 encephalon is .75 (see SRII p.
114).

> Jod/Jeroen/ikke
^^^^
Hey, that's what I'm called too :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Sloan Poa!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 14
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:47:39 PST
>IMHO (this isn't really backed up by any rules, just by some common
sense) upgrading cyberware doesn't require removal of the old system;
instead it is rebuilt to the higher rating while inside the user's
>body.

Makes sense. Given the technology supposedly available, that would even
be SIMPLER.

> For this, I'd charge the player the difference in nuyen cost between
the two items, plus something like 10%. The Essence cost is then also
equal to the difference between the two systems, but I'd base the
severity of the surgery on the full Essence cost of the system being
>installed.

Funny, I'd do just the opposite. I figure you neet the whole new system
(and $of+ware), but that a lot of the simple shit, like wiring and
interfaces, can be reused, reducing surgical complexity.

What this doesn't adress is, what if you are actually DOWNgrading? My
samurai had a chipjack 2 removed to make room for a chipjack 1 (beta)
and a datajack 1 (beta). He'd also consider repalcing wired 3 with
wired 2 (and maybe reaction enhncers) if the cost wasn't so steap.

In that case, he was intentionally after an essence hole, so it all had
to come out. I guess most cases would be similar. So no upgrades to
lower essence for free surgery! By the same token, using your method,
no replacing wired 3 with wired 2 and 6 reaction enhancers, and getting
cash back!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 15
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:47:22 +0000
Here's the score as far as I remember and think. I do not have the
books here (Someone post the exact rules and percentages and ¤
of successes somewhere, please.. :)

You have cyberware installed in you at some time. You want it out,
either to repair it, replace it, or simply remove it and be done with
it.

(Replace is any sort of upgrade, btw.).

First it must be removed. The doctor gets a TN of 10-(your essence)
to pick it out. When it is out an 'essence hole' is left; this is an
area of the body you've bought with essence for not being part of
your aura. (Or something like that). The number of successes
determines how much of that hole remains. (0=80%,1-2=90%,3+=100%.).

Then the doctor puts the new stuff in. This might be upgrades of
either rating, class or both, or a similar system. The hole, while
not exact, should be of the same 'area' of cyberware - wired could be
upgraded with simrigs, for instance, since both is nerve stuff, spurs
with cyberguns etcetera. This cyberware, if of the same 'area' of
class', will try to fit into the 'essence hole' left by the other
cyber. If it costs more essence than the old cyber, then the hole
must be expanded at the cost of more essence. If it is smaller, the
hole isn't completely filled, and another gadget might be added if of
the same class. (Reflex trigger, for instance, to wired reflexes.).
The doctor also makes a roll to check for essence cost of the item,
TN (10-resulting essence). (0 successes=+20%,1-2=+10%,
3=0%,4-5=-10%,6+=-20%). If the resulting essence loss reduces the
character below 0 essence, the surgery is aborted before any essence
is paid. Medical fees is, of course, not refunded.

This gives a theoretical maximum of 18 essence points of cyber
without going cybermantic. (50% delta, 20% doc results in 30% essence
cost. (30% of 18=6 essence.). But the risk is horrendous, and might
well end up with a lot less. (Also note that you might calculate the
modifiers differently.). It would most likely also be somewhat
expensive.

The upgrades someone mentioned, which used basically parts allready
installed, would probably be considered maintaining SOTA.
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 16
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:25:58 EST
In a message dated 98-02-03 18:49:03 EST, runefo@***.UIO.NO writes:

> This gives a theoretical maximum of 18 essence points of cyber
> without going cybermantic. (50% delta, 20% doc results in 30% essence
> cost. (30% of 18=6 essence.). But the risk is horrendous, and might
> well end up with a lot less. (Also note that you might calculate the
> modifiers differently.). It would most likely also be somewhat
> expensive.
>
Uh, not quite on this part Rune...the reduction by way of surgery is a
percentage of the percentage...so if 50% of 100 is 50, then an additional 20%
reduction is another 10% net (20% from the 50% remaining)...

-K
Message no. 17
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 01:37:35 -0600
J. Keith Henry wrote:
>

>
> As for a "true upgrade", as in making something up to SOTA (by comparison),
> there isn't much of one to be honest. Wired Reflexes vs. Wired
> Reflexes/Reflex Trigger is about the only real upgrade I've seen (ignoring the
> Cranialdeck stuff of course).
>
> > Now, you could use some kind of enhancment to cyberware. As such, you would
> > pay the difference between the 2 level (with something like a 10% increase
> > for more realism... :). However, I wouldn't change the essence rules.

Going up to SOTA and things like the reflex trigger are of value to the
character,
for one thing stuff like WR-2 or WR-3 are rather nasty to have on all
the time. So
being able to turn it off is a good thing. Mater of fact it seems like a
good choice
for a street sam who has wired 1 to want to go to wired 2 and a reflex
trigger.
When you get into wired 3 you don't have room for much other cyberware
so it would almost
if not totally impossible to install wired 3 without the use of it only
cost the differnce
in essence rather than the total essance cost.


--

Never Appeal to a man's "better nature" he may not have one.
Invoking his self-interest gives you more leverage.
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:36:47 +0100
Mon goose said on 14:47/ 3 Feb 98...

> > For this, I'd charge the player the difference in nuyen cost between
> > the two items, plus something like 10%. The Essence cost is then also
> > equal to the difference between the two systems, but I'd base the
> > severity of the surgery on the full Essence cost of the system being
> > installed.
>
> Funny, I'd do just the opposite. I figure you neet the whole new system
> (and $of+ware), but that a lot of the simple shit, like wiring and
> interfaces, can be reused, reducing surgical complexity.

The reason I base the surgery off the higher Essence cost is because I
figured the doc would need to do most of the procedure for installing the
item, even if it's just to get at the bits that are already there so they
can be upgraded.

> What this doesn't adress is, what if you are actually DOWNgrading? My
> samurai had a chipjack 2 removed to make room for a chipjack 1 (beta)
> and a datajack 1 (beta). He'd also consider repalcing wired 3 with
> wired 2 (and maybe reaction enhncers) if the cost wasn't so steap.

In that case it consists of removing the old 'ware and replacing it by a
new piece, IMHO. I feel you can't downgrade, for example, a softlink --
you'd need to cut the thing itself in half, and it would be much easier to
just rip it out altogether. Although wired reflexes could perhaps be
downgraded by removing bits from it, in the interest of reducing
numbercrunching and bookkeeping I'd say they follow the same rules as the
chipjack/datajack replacement.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Sloan Poa!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 19
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:24:02 +0000
> > This gives a theoretical maximum of 18 essence points of cyber
> > without going cybermantic. (50% delta, 20% doc results in 30% essence
> > cost. (30% of 18=6 essence.). But the risk is horrendous, and might
> > well end up with a lot less. (Also note that you might calculate the
> > modifiers differently.). It would most likely also be somewhat
> > expensive.
> >
> Uh, not quite on this part Rune...the reduction by way of surgery is a
> percentage of the percentage...so if 50% of 100 is 50, then an additional 20%
> reduction is another 10% net (20% from the 50% remaining)...
(Note the 'Also note that you might calculate the modifiers
differently.' bit. :)


--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 20
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:10:41 PST
>> > For this, I'd charge the player the difference in nuyen cost
between the two items, plus something like 10%. The Essence cost is then
also equal to the difference between the two systems, but I'd base the
severity of the surgery on the full Essence cost of the system being
installed.
>>
>> Funny, I'd do just the opposite. I figure you neet the whole new
system (and $of+ware), but that a lot of the simple shit, like wiring
and interfaces, can be reused, reducing surgical complexity.
>
>The reason I base the surgery off the higher Essence cost is because I
figured the doc would need to do most of the procedure for installing
the item, even if it's just to get at the bits that are already there so
they can be upgraded.
>

If you are upgrading to a better grade of ware, sure- the whole schmeer
has to be replaced with more essence friendly stuff. If your just
improving LEVEL, id say the surgery would consist of replacing only main
components. The wiresand interfaces in placefor even simple cyber
probably have vast extracapacity. Remebr, Essence loss is mostly fro
Fuctional diferece fro tne aura, not actual shit being stuck in your
body, byt the "aural template theory". I could have a T1 running from
my hand to my brain, and if it didn't do anyting, the essnce loss would
be minmal. But if its a smartlink, that changes how i think and move
with a gun, thus costing more essnce. IMO.

>> What this doesn't adress is, what if you are actually DOWNgrading?

>In that case it consists of removing the old 'ware and replacing it by
a new piece, IMHO. I feel you can't downgrade, for example, a softlink
--you'd need to cut the thing itself in half, and it would be >much
easier to just rip it out altogether.

Yep. Doubly true since I wanted a beter grade.

>Although wired reflexes could perhaps be
>downgraded by removing bits from it, in the interest of reducing
>numbercrunching and bookkeeping I'd say they follow the same rules as
>the chipjack/datajack replacement.
>
I'd agree. Wiredreflexes, as described, seem to involve alotof
endocrinal stimulation and sofware manipultion. The adrenalk
stimulators could be turneddown, the sofware run at a slightly less
extreeme level, and some wires removed- viola,wired reflex downgrade.
Less total essence, becauseits less stresson the body and less different
than your "aural template". Youve got the cost about right, but a
simpler rule I used is to calculate the full cost as in the book, then
decide the Doc will give a 25% discount for on all parts of procedures
that basically only involve messing with a single "location", like
swapping out a datajack for a different one. The cyberwares cost is
usuually comparatively LOW, and you can sell the old stuff (I wouldn't-
ritual links, ya know) fper "fencing loot", usually for 30% of its used
price- IE 15% of its new value. You might give a ~25% break on the
price of new cyber, but often you'll have to buy shit wether the doc
implants it or uses the old stuffs connections.

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


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Message no. 21
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:26:00 PST
>First it must be removed. The doctor gets a TN of 10-(your essence)
>to pick it out. When it is out an 'essence hole' is left; this is an
>area of the body you've bought with essence for not being part of
>your aura. (Or something like that). The number of successes
>determines how much of that hole remains.
(0=80%,1-2=90%,3+=100%.).

Iv'e never seen that. There is something like that for Bioware- you
don't remove the entire BI of a piece of bioware, and need good surgery
just to get most of it.

Cyber removal is detailed on P 39 off Shadowtech,and nowhere else AFAIK.
You get the full essence slot, but can loose MORE essence from that
surgery- a life endangering circumstance, for some people! Essence
lost thgis way isn't included in the "slot either".
The test is (10-current essence) with biotech, and no succeses means you
loose 10% of the essence cost of the wares removed. Permanantly, with no
use as a "slot". Try not to get wired 3 removed by a hack, if you can
avoid it.

The cost and injury level of this surgery is NOT ever mentioned. I make
it equal to implantation of the same system, and charge only 75% for
both the removal and implant if you are doing a straight upgrade (very
similar system replacing the removed one). I also drop the implant
surgey injury level by one, since most of the cutting is done in
removing the "obsolete" wares.

>
>Then the doctor puts the new stuff in. This might be upgrades of
>either rating, class or both, or a similar system. The hole, while
>not exact, should be of the same 'area' of cyberware - wired could be
>upgraded with simrigs, for instance, since both is nerve stuff, spurs
>with cyberguns etcetera. This cyberware, if of the same 'area' of
>class', will try to fit into the 'essence hole' left by the other
>cyber.

This is also not mentioned in the rules. My experience with Earthdawn
would indicate otherwise- they have "implants" that can cause "pattern
disruption". The removal of said implants leaves the pattern damaged,
but you can get any other implant you want. Given the nature of
"essence", I'd say the new cyber can go anywhee, and the "slot"still
serves. Essence loss is not a function of systemic disruption, but
functional difference from the auras (or "patterns") baseline condition.
The "aural template" theory in cybertechnology says basically the same
thing.

>If it costs more essence than the old cyber, then the hole
>must be expanded at the cost of more essence. If it is smaller, the
>hole isn't completely filled, and another gadget might be added if of
>the same class. (Reflex trigger, for instance, to wired reflexes.).

see above: holes a hole. Yes,it might not be big enough, or have space
left. But the type of cyber is irrelevant.

>The doctor also makes a roll to check for essence cost of the item,
>TN (10-resulting essence). (0 successes=+20%,1-2=+10%,
>3=0%,4-5=-10%,6+=-20%). If the resulting essence loss reduces the
character below 0 essence, the surgery is aborted before any essence is
paid. Medical fees is, of course, not refunded.
>

Right you are. Of couse, medical cost and injury depend on the essence
of theimplant- if surgery goes well enough to reduce it to the next
level, is injury and cost reduced?
Probably not.

>This gives a theoretical maximum of 18 essence points of cyber
>without going cybermantic. (50% delta, 20% doc results in 30% essence
>cost. (30% of 18=6 essence.). But the risk is horrendous, and might
>well end up with a lot less. (Also note that you might calculate the
>modifiers differently.). It would most likely also be somewhat
>expensive.
>

Id, say you math is off a little- (6/.3 = 20). Actually, good surgery
can save a portion of the essence cost of the cyber. With delataware,
thats already reduced half, so the final minimum cost is 80% of 50%, or
40%. You could have 6/.4 = 15 essence worth of cyber. The risk is
fairly minimal, because you do the small, less important things last,
giving a great chance of succes for the larger items (more final
essence). Also, Doctoring table mods apply, and you'd do thison someone
with good willpower and body, and have intensive and magical care
available. IMO, cybermancy is POINTLESS. The cost of the above is
less, and the results better to.

Getting betware with good surgery, fora total essnce multiplire of .48,
is within the grasp of many PC's.

>
>Fade
>
>And the Prince of Lies said:
>"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
>Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
> -John Milton, Paradise Lost
>

Interesting ideas: If youve spottedany rules about implant surgery that
contradict my views, PLEASE tell me!Theyare scatterd though shadowtech
(removal and implant surgey cost), cybertechnolgy (implant) and the
bvasic book (surgey table)

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Message no. 22
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 00:58:54 +0000
*snip Mon goose mostly agreeing but not quite*

> Interesting ideas: If youve spottedany rules about implant surgery that
> contradict my views, PLEASE tell me!Theyare scatterd though shadowtech
> (removal and implant surgey cost), cybertechnolgy (implant) and the
> bvasic book (surgey table)

I think some of the removal bit is in SSC, but don't quote me on it.
As I said first, I didn't have any books handy and did it from
memory. (And probably with some personal interpretation, since I
suffer from a rather selective/editable memory.:)

(What you mention about cyber removal surgery that might cost essence
is probably what I was thinking of - but surgery in itself cannot
cost essence, only magic, right? Only installing stuff, changing,
costs essence.... Well, I might be wrong on that one. I'll post
something more in a few weeks when I get my hands on the books...
Then again, probably not. :/


--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 23
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Cyberware
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:58:05 PST
>*snip Mon goose mostly agreeing but not quite*
>
>> Interesting ideas: If youve spotted any rules about implant surgery
that contradict my views, PLEASE tell me! They are scatterd though
shadowtech (removal and implant surgey cost), cybertechnolgy (implant)
and the basic book (surgey table)
>
>I think some of the removal bit is in SSC, but don't quote me on it.

Nothing about removal in SSC. AFAIK, every "surgery" rule in SSC was
repeated in Cybertechnology, except for "used cyberware".

>As I said first, I didn't have any books handy and did it from
>memory. (And probably with some personal interpretation, since I
>suffer from a rather selective/editable memory.:)
>

Its cool. We'vehad to pretty much wing It for any real work anyhow-
nobody has the raw cash (we got surgeryas favors), andnobody was to
concerned if essence was off by a jotora jigger. Of course, now I've got
a samurai at zero, trying to replace stuff...

>(What you mention about cyber removal surgery that might cost essence
>is probably what I was thinking of - but surgery in itself cannot
>cost essence, only magic, right?

NOPE. According to that reference (ST,p 39) a failed roll on removing
cyber causes essence loss. The damage level is not given, so I can't
speak for magic loss in and of itself (from a deadly wound), although
I'd personally say removing something over .499 essenece is a deadly,
just like implantation.



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