Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:15:27 -0500
How does everyone out here handle the cost of upgrading magical
libraries and medicine lodges. I've settled on the player paying the cost
difference between the old and new levels since they are basically adding
to what they already have. I want to see if this is how others handle it
or should I reconsider. I don't think I've seen anything in print on how
it really should be handled.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 2
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 19:00:41 EST
On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:15:27 -0500 MC23 <mc23@****.NET> writes:

> How does everyone out here handle the cost of upgrading magical
>libraries and medicine lodges. I've settled on the player paying the
cost
>difference between the old and new levels since they are basically
adding
>to what they already have. I want to see if this is how others handle it
>or should I reconsider. I don't think I've seen anything in print on how
>it really should be handled.

The only thing I can think of was a sentence somewhere (either SR2 or
Grimmy) where it was stated that combining a Rating 2 and Rating 3
library didn't get you a Rating 5, it just got you a Rating 2 and a
Rating 3:) But I don't know that that really applies here (since you're
upgrading rather than combining libraries), so i don't have any real
complaint (it's about what I've been considering for some time now)

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 3
From: Mike Hartmann <hartmann@***********.M.EUNET.DE>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:20:58 +0000
On 15 Feb 97 at 14:15, MC23 wrote:

> How does everyone out here handle the cost of upgrading magical
> libraries and medicine lodges. I've settled on the player paying the cost
> difference between the old and new levels since they are basically adding
> to what they already have. I want to see if this is how others handle it
> or should I reconsider. I don't think I've seen anything in print on how
> it really should be handled.

As those libraries mostly contain data/information I believe that a
higher rating simply means that it contains even more data. So for
libraries you should only pay the difference.
For medicine lodges you could argue that for higher ratings you need
materials with better quality so there I would not allow to upgrade.

Bye Mike
Message no. 4
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:51:41 -0500
Mark Steedman wrote,
>The rules are not explicit but i allow it as you suggest.
>The only other reasonable method is like gaining spells, you go out
>and buy a brand new one at the higher rating and ignore what you had
>before.

I'm not quite satisfied with rebuying the library. Try running this
in the CAS where magical supplies are around 200% cost. That's why this
is a more serious matter for my campaign. In fact everyplace except
Seattle it seems to be really expensive to play a hermetic (supplies are
cheaper for shamans in the NAN). That is just aggravating, but then again
so is life.

P.S. Mark, I don't know if this was mailed to me or the list so I replied
to the list. My reply to directed it to you originally.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 5
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:44:52 GMT
MC23 writes

> Mark Steedman wrote,
> >The rules are not explicit but i allow it as you suggest.
> >The only other reasonable method is like gaining spells, you go out
> >and buy a brand new one at the higher rating and ignore what you had
> >before.
>
> I'm not quite satisfied with rebuying the library. Try running this
> in the CAS where magical supplies are around 200% cost.
I did suggest i'm ok with just paying the difference between the new
and old ratings, see first line above. You certainly NEVER add rating
together though.

>
> P.S. Mark, I don't know if this was mailed to me or the list so I replied
> to the list. My reply to directed it to you originally.
>
This is a common problem. For some reason the list server does not
overwrite reply to fields generated by some email programmes, the
answer is to reset which field you are replying to to one that your
mailer and the list manage to agree is to the list. This is likely to
vary depending on your software i suspect.

Mark
Message no. 6
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:30:37 -0500
Mark Steedman wrote,
>MC23 writes
>> I'm not quite satisfied with rebuying the library. Try running this
>> in the CAS where magical supplies are around 200% cost.
>I did suggest i'm ok with just paying the difference between the new
>and old ratings, see first line above. You certainly NEVER add rating
>together though.
I know not to add ratings, I just haven't fully committed on how to
handle the upgrade. That's why I'm hoping for enough discussion on this.
I just wanted to point out how expensive rebuying the library is when
played in a non-Seattle campaign. I do also like the concept of the
magician always looking around for a few new additions to their stash to
slowly raise their respective ratings as opposed to saving up for that
grand increase all at once.
Of course I can still be convinced that rebuying everything is the
way to go. I'm can justify it but it's not my favorite option.
>
>>
>> P.S. Mark, I don't know if this was mailed to me or the list so I replied
>> to the list. My reply to directed it to you originally.
>>
>This is a common problem. For some reason the list server does not
>overwrite reply to fields generated by some email programmes, the
>answer is to reset which field you are replying to to one that your
>mailer and the list manage to agree is to the list. This is likely to
>vary depending on your software i suspect.
Your letter again has your return address instead of the list's. You
might need to include a warning for that when you post.




<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 7
From: "Mike Mulvihill (FASA)" <FASAMike@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 15:31:59 -0500
>On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:15:27 -0500 MC23 <mc23@****.NET> writes:
>
> How does everyone out here handle the cost of upgrading magical
>libraries and medicine lodges. I've settled on the player paying the
>cost
>difference between the old and new levels since they are basically
>adding
>to what they already have. I want to see if this is how others handle it
>or should I reconsider. I don't think I've seen anything in print on how
>it really should be handled.

So I guess suggesting the magic SOTA rules would be a bad idea....

ROTFLOL!

Have Fun!
Play Games!
I'm My Own Best Friend!

Mike Mulvihill
Shadowrun Line Developer
FASA
www.fasa.com
Message no. 8
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:52:35 -0500
Mike Mulvihill (FASA),
>So I guess suggesting the magic SOTA rules would be a bad idea....

<grrrrrr...>

>ROTFLOL!
>
>Have Fun!
>Play Games!
>I'm My Own Best Friend!
Well, there's one friend for you. <grin>

- MC23 -
"Would SOTA for libraries be an even older arcane tome?"
Message no. 9
From: "M. Gotthard" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:11:40 +1000
> Mike Mulvihill (FASA),
> >So I guess suggesting the magic SOTA rules would be a bad idea....
>
> <grrrrrr...>
>
I take it that the list considers the SOTA rules out of the Companion to
be a little flawed? I missed that thread.

> >ROTFLOL!
> >
> >Have Fun!
> >Play Games!
> >I'm My Own Best Friend!
>
> Well, there's one friend for you. <grin>
>
And it's not even imaginary, well fancy that! *grin*

> "Would SOTA for libraries be an even older arcane tome?"
>

ROTFL.

Bleach
Message no. 10
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:08:53 -0500
M. Gotthard wrote,
>MC23 wrote,
>> Mike Mulvihill (FASA),
>> >So I guess suggesting the magic SOTA rules would be a bad idea....
>>
>> <grrrrrr...>
>>
>I take it that the list considers the SOTA rules out of the Companion to
>be a little flawed? I missed that thread.

No, _I_ think the whole Companion in general is flawed. The rest of
the list praises it. (an over generalization I know). rec.games.frp.cyber
is closer to that opinion, though.

- MC23, who wonders why he still writes here -
"Mike Mulvihill, Steve Kenson,and Jak Koke's posts and especially Spike
and Shaman (Calvin Hsieh) who both convinced me to stay past the early
flames"
Message no. 11
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:05:14 EST
On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:11:40 +1000 "M. Gotthard"
<s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU> writes:
>> Mike Mulvihill (FASA),
>> >So I guess suggesting the magic SOTA rules would be a bad idea....
>>
>> <grrrrrr...>
>>
>I take it that the list considers the SOTA rules out of the Companion
>to
>be a little flawed? I missed that thread.
>
Mostly MC23 thinks the entire Companion's a little flawed. And it's
mainly the Magical SOTA rules he has a problem with on the SOTA...if you
want to know what he doesn't like about the book, ask him, privately:)

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 12
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:19:23 -0500
L Canthros write
>Mostly MC23 thinks the entire Companion's a little flawed. And it's
>mainly the Magical SOTA rules he has a problem with on the SOTA...if you
>want to know what he doesn't like about the book, ask him, privately:)

Or if you want to save time just ask me what I liked. I actually found a
few things. B;>]#



<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 13
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:50:15 -0500
We've always run it that you have to pay the full cost of a new library to
upgrade to the next Rating, the new materials in many ways superceed the
lower-rated ones, getting a copy of "The Manual of Practical Thaumaturgy,
2058 digital edition" (say, Rating 3) is certainly going to superceed the
value of "Mr. Magic's Spells-at-Home Kit" (Rating 1) because it includes all
of that information AND MORE, as the marketing dept. is so fond of saying
(Now how much would you pay?)

For appling the SOTA rules to Hermetic libraries, the concept I use is that
modern magical theory, like modern scientific theory is developing all of the
time and mage come up with newer and more efficient ways to design spells and
such that makes some of the outdated methods obsolete (i.e., degrades the
Magical Theory Rating of those materials). Certainly Kano and White-Eagle's
"Astral Space Theory" paper that won the Nobel Prize revolutionized magical
thought in the Sixth World for many magicians. The same can apply to advances
in the development of other formulae. Take, for example, Kyle Teller's
comment in BURNING BRIGHT about how he used "the Rigetti formula" to
design/summon his ally spirit. Had he been talking to another mage, one could
imagine the response being something like:

Other mage: "The Rigetti formula? That's been out of use for years now,
everyone's been using the Connolly theorems since '55. You couldn't summon an
effective spirit with the Rigetti these days."
Seeks-the-Moon: "Pardon me?"
Other mage: "Oh, no offense intended..."

I personally only use the SOTA rules when player characters need to be
seperated from their excess cash and to remind then that the world continues
to move forward and they have to keep with it or get run over. I try not to
apply SOTA changes too often and many times a SOTA change will imply
opportunity for a shadowrun; "what, there's a new theorem/algorithm/thingy
out there that does this better than before? How can we get it and who can we
sell it to?"

Steve K.
Underworld Sourcebook, coming soon (smuggling and data piracy, anyone?)
Message no. 14
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 20:13:59 -0500
>We've always run it that you have to pay the full cost of a new library to
>upgrade to the next Rating, the new materials in many ways superceed the

Discussion makes sense.


>For appling the SOTA rules to Hermetic libraries, the concept I use is that

I think the problem here is the basic argument against SOTA: The standard
you apply it against isn't changing. While I agree SOTA makes sense so that
we don't have to keep upping the damage level of guns every two game years
(we just say armor kept up with them) the problem is that the standard, the
unarmored body, doesn't increase. Newer guns ARE going to hurt more. Older
guns are still going to hurt as much. Same applies to spells. The 10 year
old Fireball force 6 is every bit as roasty-toasty as the day it was
designed. SOTA theory really only works in environments where both sides
are upgrading. To my knowledge, this is decking only.

>modern magical theory, like modern scientific theory is developing all of the
>time and mage come up with newer and more efficient ways to design spells and
>such that makes some of the outdated methods obsolete (i.e., degrades the

Wait...so because there is something better, the old, working way no longer
works as well? THat doesn't make any sense.

>Magical Theory Rating of those materials). Certainly Kano and White-Eagle's
>"Astral Space Theory" paper that won the Nobel Prize revolutionized magical
>thought in the Sixth World for many magicians. The same can apply to advances
>in the development of other formulae. Take, for example, Kyle Teller's

I viewed this as learning HOW to learn Magical theory beyond the rudimentary
levels.

>Other mage: "The Rigetti formula? That's been out of use for years now,
>everyone's been using the Connolly theorems since '55. You couldn't summon an
>effective spirit with the Rigetti these days."
>Seeks-the-Moon: "Pardon me?"
>Other mage: "Oh, no offense intended..."

Okay, so here a formula is out of use. How does that prevent it from being
useful?
A molitav cocktail still works as well, despite the advent of C-4.

>I personally only use the SOTA rules when player characters need to be
>seperated from their excess cash and to remind then that the world continues
>to move forward and they have to keep with it or get run over. I try not to

SOTA really only makes sense in decking. Anywhere else it seems like a
cheap GM trick to "separate" runners from their money. And I say this as a GM.

>Underworld Sourcebook, coming soon (smuggling and data piracy, anyone?)

Eagerly awaiting. I've been wanting to get some Yak contacts into my group,
but have been waiting on this...
Message no. 15
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:03:59 -0500
Steve Kenson wrote,
>We've always run it that you have to pay the full cost of a new library to
>upgrade to the next Rating, the new materials in many ways superceed the
>lower-rated ones, getting a copy of "The Manual of Practical Thaumaturgy,
>2058 digital edition" (say, Rating 3) is certainly going to superceed the
>value of "Mr. Magic's Spells-at-Home Kit" (Rating 1) because it includes
>all of that information AND MORE, as the marketing dept. is so fond of
>saying (Now how much would you pay?)

Besides the fact I like the old image of a magician's library with
shelves and shelves of books, My problem arose when playing a magician in
New Orleans trying to increase his library at CAS's cost of living
(magical foci 250%, hermetic library - computer 200% or hard copy 125%,
magical supplies 250%). Using that hindrance it became really expensive
to increase his library. If the cost difference was used then it would
make more sense to increase the rating one level at a time. A GM could
stop the library at a level he felt comfortable at easier than regretting
a high level purchase that was made.
I still haven't decided which option I prefer. Steve where are your
games set? I'm just curious what cost of living increases (if any) have
effected your game.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 10:58:46 +0100
Steve Kenson said on 11:50/20 Feb 97...

> We've always run it that you have to pay the full cost of a new library to
> upgrade to the next Rating, the new materials in many ways superceed the
> lower-rated ones, getting a copy of "The Manual of Practical Thaumaturgy,
> 2058 digital edition" (say, Rating 3) is certainly going to superceed the
> value of "Mr. Magic's Spells-at-Home Kit" (Rating 1) because it includes
all
> of that information AND MORE, as the marketing dept. is so fond of saying
> (Now how much would you pay?)

The "libraries don't add up" rule is obviously for reasons of playability,
so players don't have to keep track of individual books and their effects
on the library's rating. However, I both agree and disagree with it...

Compare this to a real-world example: if you want to know something
about, say, a 1950 Oldsmobile 98 4-door sedan, you could look it up in a
generic book on classic cars. You'll get basic info about performance, how
many were produced, etc. but hardly any details. IMO this compares to a
rating 1 library.

Now if you pick up a book written about only this particular car, you'll
know a lot more than from the generic book. Call this a rating 5 library.

Then there's the technical manual for the car -- each part drawn,
numbered, and shown how and where it fits in a book 5 cm thick. This is
data you won't find in the previous work, but still it gives you about the
same level of information about the car: it's another rating 5 library,
but it doesn't tell you anything the _other_ rating 5 library does.

What I'm trying to say is that IRL you can add to your knowledge of
something by taking two books (or colections of books) that approach the
same subject from different angles, and get very little overlap. As a
result, your library rating would go up in some way...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And I wonder what's in a day...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 17
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 06:01:33 -0500
At 10:58 AM 2/21/97 +0100, Gurth wrote these timeless words:
[Snip]

>What I'm trying to say is that IRL you can add to your knowledge of
>something by taking two books (or colections of books) that approach the
>same subject from different angles, and get very little overlap. As a
>result, your library rating would go up in some way...
>
But... (Bull says hesitantly, jumping into a magicla discussion in which
he has no place), what you're basically saying, Gurth is equivelant to
buying, say, a rating 2 and a rating 2 manual, and hoping to come up with
the equivelant of a rating 4.... By themselves, not that great, but
together, they work well. Unfortuantely, a lot of books aren't going to do
that. they're going to overlap in a lot of essential areas, covering the
basics taht are needed to understand the rest of the book, unless it's a
book that assumes you already own the first book. Usually, with two
seperate books, you will have 2 rating 2's come out to about a rating 3.
Between the two, you learn more than you knew with just one, but since they
both cover a lot of the same ground, you're not getting as much as you could.

Ok, I can see this go several ways.

Example A- On one hand, if you were buying a series of book, each about
rating 2 or so, and they all built upon each other, yeah, you could add
them. This is like buying "Magic For Dummies", then "Magic For Dummies
2", then "Magic for people who wasted their money on the first 2". They
build on each other as a series. So you have 3 rating 2 books that give
you the equivelant of a rating 6.

Example B- Alternatively, you've got a bunch of random books. "Magic For
Dummies" really only covers the basics. What good is "Magic for Beginners"
then? Sure, there might be a couple differences between the two, but in
general, they're covering the same material. if you want to buy more, you
have to buy "Advanced Magic". This is a rating 4 book that covers both the
basics, plus that little extra. Then of course, there's "Masters of
Magic", a huge tome that covers everything you could ever want to know
about magic, and is a rating 6. it includes everything in the first two
bookws, as well as other tricks that no other book teaches...

Example C- Or, you have something in between, that requires the use of math
and common sense. Say you o out and Buy "Magic for Dummies" and "Magic for
Beginners". The differences are subtle, and few... But that little extra
that you learn from reading two rating 2 tomes gives you the equivelant of
a rating 3. Since they don't interlock and build on each other, they
wouldn't work like example A above. But you do learn a little extra.
however, I don't think you'll gain enough knowledge from reading a thrid
rating 2 book to bump your library rating up to a four. The first two will
have covered all but the most minor details, and they won't add up to
enough to goose your library. So from there, you have to buy at least a
library equivelant to your current rating to bump it up a notch. This
system ends up working similar to the way you advance Attributes with
karma...:) So you start with 2 rating 2's to get a rating 3 Library. To
go to a rating 4, you need to add at least a rating 3. And so on up the
scale...

Well, those were just a couple of my thoughts... Hmmm... Lots of
gobbeldygoop, but I hope it made sense...

Maybe I should stay out of these drekking magic debates...:)

Bull-the-Ork-Decker
--
Now the Fearless Leader of the New Star Wars Mailing List!

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"I finally find a guy I like, and you got to go and kill him!"
-Kom, "Outlanders"
Message no. 18
From: Jose Vicente Mondejar Brell <jomonbre@***.UPV.ES>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 13:30:32 +0000
Bull wrote:
<snip!>
> Example C- Or, you have something in between, that requires the use of math
> and common sense. Say you o out and Buy "Magic for Dummies" and
"Magic for
<snipping again...>
> enough to goose your library. So from there, you have to buy at least a
> library equivelant to your current rating to bump it up a notch. This
> system ends up working similar to the way you advance Attributes with
> karma...:) So you start with 2 rating 2's to get a rating 3 Library. To
> go to a rating 4, you need to add at least a rating 3. And so on up the
> scale...

Yup! I like the idea. I feel like I'm borrowing it for my campaign...
Do you want any mention to my players, Bull? ;)

> Well, those were just a couple of my thoughts... Hmmm... Lots of
> gobbeldygoop, but I hope it made sense...

At least for me, yes :)

> Maybe I should stay out of these drekking magic debates...:)

I don't think you're doing it badly at your tries on it :)

> Bull-the-Ork-Decker
<snip>

--
Monde, who wonders who'll be the next upgrade his players want to get
Message no. 19
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 08:00:22 -0500
At 01:30 PM 2/21/97 +0000, Jose Vicente Mondejar Brell wrote these timeless
words:
>Bull wrote:
><snip!>
>Yup! I like the idea. I feel like I'm borrowing it for my campaign...
>
Feel free, man... That's what I post this stuff for...:)

>Do you want any mention to my players, Bull? ;)
>
Hey, if you ever need an NPC Ork Decker...:):):)

>> Well, those were just a couple of my thoughts... Hmmm... Lots of
>> gobbeldygoop, but I hope it made sense...
>
>At least for me, yes :)
>
>> Maybe I should stay out of these drekking magic debates...:)
>
>I don't think you're doing it badly at your tries on it :)
>
Thanks...:)

>Monde, who wonders who'll be the next upgrade his players want to get
>
Bull-the-helpful-Ork-Decker
--
Now the Fearless Leader of the New Star Wars Mailing List!

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"I finally find a guy I like, and you got to go and kill him!"
-Kom, "Outlanders"
Message no. 20
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 09:30:33 -0500
Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> wrote:
>I think the problem here is the basic argument against SOTA: The standard
>you apply it against isn't changing. While I agree SOTA makes sense so that
>we don't have to keep upping the damage level of guns every two game years
>(we just say armor kept up with them) the problem is that the standard, the
>unarmored body, doesn't increase. Newer guns ARE going to hurt more. Older
>guns are still going to hurt as much. Same applies to spells. The 10 year
>old Fireball force 6 is every bit as roasty-toasty as the day it was
>designed. SOTA theory really only works in environments where both sides
>are upgrading. To my knowledge, this is decking only.

Yeah, the whole problem with the SOTA rules is that the only real means the
game system has of modelling the increases in the State of the Art other than
constant escalation of power levels is by "degrading" existing power levels
to reflect how much cooler and more effective the new "technology" is. I
agree that it's a less than elegant system and, personally, I don't make use
of the SOTA rules as such, I prefer to make the need for upgrades and upkeep
a background element that I occasionally use to seperate player characters
from their excess cash.

That said, I do think that the SOTA system is based on the idea that both
sides are upgrading all the time. I would venture to say that, by 2050+, guns
have reached a certain "threshold" of killing power. Generally, a big
handgun, wielded by a fairly proficient shooter, is going to kill an
unarmored target. You can't improve a gun much past "he's dead," which is one
of the reasons that the basic design of many guns hasn't changed in decades.
The thing that guns are trying to keep up with (and the system is trying to
model) is that ARMOR improves. They come out with a new SOTA armor that's a
bit more effective. If you don't get the SOTA gun/ammo to counter it, your
gun will be less effective. Then they come out with an even better
armor-defeating round that means your armor will be less effective unless, of
course, you get the new SOTA armor (likely put out by the same corp).

The same idea can be applied to some magical concepts. The SOTA system is not
(I believe) intended to suggest that spells degrade, only magical
INFORMATION, like Hermetic Libraries. If you try to design a spell using an
out-of-date reference, then the new defense techniques that magicians have
picked up over the past few years will make your spell less effective ("Can
you believe it? He was obviously casting based on the Sargent theorem. There
are more loopholes to block that kind of casting that you can shake a wand
at!"). Now, that might mean you only decrease the spell's EFFECTIVE Force
when another magician is trying to use Spell Defense to block it, or fighting
it in astral combat, but it's still a case of two sides continually upgrading
their techniques to "one up" the other side.

MC23 <mc23@****.NET> wrote:
> Besides the fact I like the old image of a magician's library with
>shelves and shelves of books, My problem arose when playing a magician in
>New Orleans trying to increase his library at CAS's cost of living
>(magical foci 250%, hermetic library - computer 200% or hard copy 125%,
>magical supplies 250%). Using that hindrance it became really expensive
>to increase his library. If the cost difference was used then it would
>make more sense to increase the rating one level at a time. A GM could
>stop the library at a level he felt comfortable at easier than regretting
>a high level purchase that was made.
> I still haven't decided which option I prefer. Steve where are your
>games set? I'm just curious what cost of living increases (if any) have
>effected your game.

Well, I'll admit up front that I pay only passing attention to the price
markups for different regions. I tend to limit equipment based on how much of
a pain it'll be to deal with in the future and fall back on price as a last
resort. I've had SR games set in Seattle (natch), Boston and Denver and am
now actually getting to play in a new game set in San Francisco. Since I'm
playing a street mage, and the cost of magical materials in SF is upwards of
200% I'll address this with the way that I've handled it as both a GM and a
player.

As a GM I often reward characters with things other than cash. For magicians
that includes access to the magical resources that they need and that I feel
won't unbalance the campaign. If I know that a mage character needs a better
library, I try and set up opportunities for him to get in good with someone
who can help him out; either at a cut-rate or by simply sharing some existing
materials.

As a player, I look for those kinds of opportunities. Also, for my street
mage character, he's going to want to pull in some favors from the other PCs
to help him steal or otherwise "acquire" some of the magical lore that he
needs. I reason that it's good business for them to ensure their wiz-boy has
got the tools to do the job right and that they'll thank me when the mojo
starts flying and they are calling for that Heal spell they helped me get
info on.

Steve
Message no. 21
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 20:39:01 -0500
>That said, I do think that the SOTA system is based on the idea that both
>sides are upgrading all the time. I would venture to say that, by 2050+, guns
>have reached a certain "threshold" of killing power. Generally, a big
>handgun, wielded by a fairly proficient shooter, is going to kill an
>unarmored target. You can't improve a gun much past "he's dead," which is
one
<snip a lot of discussion about both sides upgrading>
>course, you get the new SOTA armor (likely put out by the same corp).
...
>The same idea can be applied to some magical concepts. The SOTA system is not
>(I believe) intended to suggest that spells degrade, only magical
>INFORMATION, like Hermetic Libraries. If you try to design a spell using an
>out-of-date reference, then the new defense techniques that magicians have
...
>their techniques to "one up" the other side.

The problem in this argument is that the standard, the unarmored, magically
undefended
Joe, hasn't changed. SOTA reduces my effectiveness against EVERYONE. To
use your gun argument, you can't get much past "he's dead", but SOTA has
effectively made that REAL hard for hold-out pistols.

the same goes, on a tenfold scale, for magic. My spell cast with the ten
year-old defensively flimsy Sargent Theorem will wipe house with anyone with
low defenses. Using SOTA, which only applies against magical targets,
affects me against EVERYONE.

The way I see it, there are a few "fixes" for this:
1) Ignore the problem. SOTA isn't THAT painful.
2) Ignore SOTA for anything aside from Decking.
3) Make SOTA not affect anything unresisted (so your deck is down to an MPCP
2, it still uses the MPCP 12 it once was against an equally unimproved system)
4) Grant bonuses against non-resisting targets. (You've got a hold out
against the ganger-wannabe [whose never SEEN a real gun, and wears nothing
more than synthleather]? Fine, he falls back in a spray of blood. Wow,
ain't that a big wound for a little hold-out. Ain't science sumpin!)

I use #4 on occasion myself.

I guess I don't know why I'm talking, as any GM can make up their mind for
him or her self. But this group's for discussion of SR, so I'm discussing!
:) Most of the time I don't use SOTA. I hit my group with enough charity
jobs that they never have an extreme excess of cash, so other than
mentioning things like "Since you expect large scale combat, you haul-out
the FN-MAG. Boy, you haven't used this thing in months. Hope it still
works well." Do this with a few secret dice rolls and some grim looks, and
your players start making sure to mention that they try and maintain SOTA on
thier own. The role-playing is more than enough for me.

So the basic weakness in SOTA is that it isn't really TWO sides, both
increasing. (It is in game reality, but the stats show something different)

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 22
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 17:56:24 -0500
> the same goes, on a tenfold scale, for magic. My spell cast with the ten
> year-old defensively flimsy Sargent Theorem will wipe house with anyone
with
> low defenses. Using SOTA, which only applies against magical targets,
> affects me against EVERYONE.

Actually if you have read the Cal Free book, then you should know that
magic in and of itself is changing.
Not only is human knowledge of the stuff growing, but the very mana level,
and nature of astral space are changing.
I can't remember which colleges it referes to, but the Cal Free book
implies that thanks to incessant magical warfare between the schools they
have altered the very nature of astral space in the vicinity!
All this in less that 50 years since the magic returned!
Talk about a wicked SOTA curve!

Personally, I like the SOTA rules, but hey, it's your game ... :-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com./users/bluewizard
"Let's go scare Al."
Message no. 23
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 21:22:09 -0500
>Actually if you have read the Cal Free book, then you should know that
>magic in and of itself is changing.
>Not only is human knowledge of the stuff growing, but the very mana level,
>and nature of astral space are changing.
>I can't remember which colleges it referes to, but the Cal Free book

I think it was UCLA,but I forget the college they were warring with.

>implies that thanks to incessant magical warfare between the schools they
>have altered the very nature of astral space in the vicinity!

THat only makes sense, that's more of an evironmental change that a
technological evolution though...

And as for the nature of mana changing, I got more of an impression that the
Awakening was an ongoing process, so new things keep happening, not that the
old stop working.

>Personally, I like the SOTA rules, but hey, it's your game ... :-)

I just find them an unnecessary, and annoying complication that don't add
anything to the game. I use them for Decking and that's about all. Decking
is really the only place I feel comfortable defending the rules.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 24
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 11:39:01 +0100
Bull said on 6:01/21 Feb 97...

> Ok, I can see this go several ways.
[snip Bull's 3 examples]

Exactly. The way it's presented in SRII is that all magic libraries
automatically cover the same ground as all lower- and equal-rated ones, so
if you take two rating X libaries, you still have a rating X library
that's just twice as large as the first one. This works great to reduce
bookkeeping, but I think it's not all that realistic. Neither is it
realistic to say that all ratings always add together, because almost
always there _will_ be some overlap.

What I'm thinking of now is giving a random chance of increasing the
overall rating if you add two libraries together.. Something like this:

1D6 Rating increase
1 +0%
2 +10%
3 +20%
4 +35%
5 +50%
6 +90%

Multiply the lower rating by the percentage, and add it to the higher one,
rounding fractions nearest. For example, adding a rating 3 to a rating 4
library could result in anything between rating 4 and rating 7.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And I wonder what's in a day...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 25
From: Guardian <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 09:52:25 +1000
> Besides the fact I like the old image of a magician's library with
> shelves and shelves of books, My problem arose when playing a magician in
> New Orleans trying to increase his library at CAS's cost of living
> (magical foci 250%, hermetic library - computer 200% or hard copy 125%,
> magical supplies 250%). Using that hindrance it became really expensive
> to increase his library. If the cost difference was used then it would
> make more sense to increase the rating one level at a time. A GM could
> stop the library at a level he felt comfortable at easier than regretting
> a high level purchase that was made.

*grin* So move. Or at least go out of CAS and import the stuff you
need. Oughta be cheaper. *ducking from the expected returns commenting
on customs, import duty and the like*

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If we come back from heaven, do we get arrested for illegal immigration?"
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 26
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 23:29:51 +0100
On Fri, 21 Feb 1997 06:01:33 -0500, Bull wrote:

>So from there, you have to buy at least a
>library equivelant to your current rating to bump it up a notch. This
>system ends up working similar to the way you advance Attributes with
>karma...:) So you start with 2 rating 2's to get a rating 3 Library. To
>go to a rating 4, you need to add at least a rating 3. And so on up the
>scale...

We were thinking about another possible house rule (D, I think:):
New rating = squareroot of (sum of all (ratings^2)).
Example: two libraries of rating 2: 2^2=4*2=8, sqr(8)=2 or 3
(whats's the GM's mood:)
rating 2, 3, 5 4+9+25 @, sqr(40) = 6 or 7.
Seems not too bad for me, and someone said this were a method used
often in mathematics for several things, so there must be a little
RL usability;)

>
>Well, those were just a couple of my thoughts... Hmmm... Lots of
>gobbeldygoop, but I hope it made sense...

It does, although I think my rule is better - IMHO, of course

>Maybe I should stay out of these drekking magic debates...:)

It was a good contribution, perhaps you should get
Bull-the-magical-theory-studying-and-panther-carrying-family-man-ork-decker ...

--
Arno
*********************************************************************
Be careful when replying to this mail - check the address !!!
(And send me a note when you notice that
the reply-to-address points to the list!)
*********************************************************************
Message no. 27
From: "Elfman(Sgt Pepper) & Danita" <elf-dani@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 11:35:01 -0700
: From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
:
: Exactly. The way it's presented in SRII is that all magic libraries
: automatically cover the same ground as all lower- and equal-rated
ones, so
: if you take two rating X libaries, you still have a rating X
library
: that's just twice as large as the first one. This works great to
reduce
: bookkeeping, but I think it's not all that realistic. Neither is it
: realistic to say that all ratings always add together, because
almost
: always there _will_ be some overlap.
:
: What I'm thinking of now is giving a random chance of increasing
the
: overall rating if you add two libraries together.. Something like
this:
:
: 1D6 Rating increase
: 1 +0%
: 2 +10%
: 3 +20%
: 4 +35%
: 5 +50%
: 6 +90%
:
: Multiply the lower rating by the percentage, and add it to the
higher one,
: rounding fractions nearest. For example, adding a rating 3 to a
rating 4
: library could result in anything between rating 4 and rating 7.

Maybe you could look at the difference between the two ratings as a
factor. For example, a rating 3 is going to have more stuff in common
with a rating 4 than it would have with a rating 7. Think of
textbooks, the more advanced the book, the less "review" material it
has. Maybe adding a percent of the difference in the ratings, to the
lower rating, or something to that effect.

Also, you might want to take into account looking specifically for
books with less overlap. A person could look for a book with less
overlap, by raising the cost index or availability then having a
certain rating in the end. Just make it a lot harder to find the
material.

Sgt Pepper

Visit Elfman's World at http://www.spots.ab.ca/~elf-dani
or Danitaville at http://www.spots.ab.ca/~elf-dani/index.html
Message no. 28
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Magical Libraries
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:23:35 +0100
Elfman(Sgt Pepper) & Danita said on 11:35/25 Feb 97...

> Maybe you could look at the difference between the two ratings as a
> factor. For example, a rating 3 is going to have more stuff in common
> with a rating 4 than it would have with a rating 7. Think of
> textbooks, the more advanced the book, the less "review" material it
> has. Maybe adding a percent of the difference in the ratings, to the
> lower rating, or something to that effect.

That would make it a lot more complicated than a simple roll on a table,
though. BTW, I think you got it turned around -- a rating 7 library will
probably cover all the topics a rating 3 one does, but a rating 4 library
may not.

Maybe a way is to subtract the difference from a 2D6 roll, then multiply
by 8 to find the percentage by which the lower rating increases the
higher rating (no negative increases, though). That way, adding a higher
rating to a lower rating takes into account the overlap of the two better.
For example, the rating 7 + rating 3 example rolls (2D6-4)x8. I get
(7-4)x8 = 24, so the new rating = 7 + 3x.24 = 7.72, rounding to 8.

> Also, you might want to take into account looking specifically for
> books with less overlap. A person could look for a book with less
> overlap, by raising the cost index or availability then having a
> certain rating in the end. Just make it a lot harder to find the
> material.

Maybe get a +1 to the 2D6 roll for every +3 you accept to the
Availability TN? The cost and street index shouldn't increase, IMHO,
because all you're doing is a more thorough search.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'm not a philosopher, I only have a highschool diploma.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Upgrading Magical Libraries, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!