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Message no. 1
From: Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Use of Good Karma
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:06:17 -0500
In the games I've been GMing Good Karma has been used to raise attributes,
skills, lock magical stuff. The sourcebook is unclear on how much karma
is needed to raise attributes and skills.

If a guy with let's say body of 1 gets 6 karma, can he spend it to get a
body of 6? I don't think so. In my campaign we've been making people
progress at a rate of next highest number for instance: to get from body
of 1 to body of 6, you need to pay 2+3+4+5+6= 20 good karma.

This seems to be working. One of my PCs has recently tried to quote the
book to the letter and is bugging me about this.

Nonetheless, we allow raises in general skills from 1 to 6 by spending
only 12 karma.

I'd like some feedback.

Sincerely yours,
Dust
Message no. 2
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Use of Good Karma
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:50:15 -0700
> In the games I've been GMing Good Karma has been used to raise
attributes,
> skills, lock magical stuff. The sourcebook is unclear on how much karma
> is needed to raise attributes and skills.
>
> If a guy with let's say body of 1 gets 6 karma, can he spend it to get a
> body of 6? I don't think so. In my campaign we've been making people
> progress at a rate of next highest number for instance: to get from body
> of 1 to body of 6, you need to pay 2+3+4+5+6= 20 good karma.

From everything that I have ever seen you are using karma correctly for the
attributes. Up to the racial maximum it should cost a number of points
equal to the new number you are going to. If you use the optional rule
then they can go up to 1.5 times their racial maximum but it costs twice as
much karma.
ie: a human going from 5 to 6 would cost 6 if he later wanted to boost it
to 7 it would cost 14.


> This seems to be working. One of my PCs has recently tried to quote the
> book to the letter and is bugging me about this.

Just thwap him and be done with it. =)

> Nonetheless, we allow raises in general skills from 1 to 6 by spending
> only 12 karma.

This is incorrrrrrectamundo...the karma cost is two times the level you are
trying to go to for general skills...1.5 times for concentrations, and 1
times for specializations.

ie: firearms from 3 to 4 would cost 8 karma then learning pistols from 4 to
5 would cost 8 karma (5 x 1.5 = 7.5...round up to 8) then specializing in
Ares Predator II at 6 would cost 6 karma. If this same guy wanted to later
raise his base firearms from 4 to 5 it would cost 10, but it would NOT
raise his pistols or predator skill.

> I'd like some feedback.

See above ;)

~Caric

"All the world's indeed a stage, we are mearly players.
Performers and portrayers. Each anothers audience,
outside the gilded cage." -Rush
caric@*******.com
Message no. 3
From: Joel Nesbitt <joel.nesbitt@******.OXFORD.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Use of Good Karma
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 19:59:44 +0000
On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, Dust wrote:

> In the games I've been GMing Good Karma has been used to raise attributes,
> skills, lock magical stuff. The sourcebook is unclear on how much karma
> is needed to raise attributes and skills.
>
> If a guy with let's say body of 1 gets 6 karma, can he spend it to get a
> body of 6? I don't think so. In my campaign we've been making people
> progress at a rate of next highest number for instance: to get from body
> of 1 to body of 6, you need to pay 2+3+4+5+6= 20 good karma.
>
> This seems to be working. One of my PCs has recently tried to quote the
> book to the letter and is bugging me about this.
>
> Nonetheless, we allow raises in general skills from 1 to 6 by spending
> only 12 karma.
>
> I'd like some feedback.
>
> Sincerely yours,
> Dust

Are you having a laugh?! Hey, it's your game, but the way we've always
played it is to have incremental rising of skills and attributes, (i)
because we'd never thought the rules could be interpreted any other way,
and (ii) even now I can see the alternative method it seems to me to be
FAR too easy to get VERY good skills. Unrmed combat 6 would be
(according to the Companion) a decent martial artist, for example, or
Firearms 6 would be a dman good marksman. Can you get that good for just
6 Karma (I guess about one run's worth, though obviously that depends).
Like I say, it's your game, but that's my feedback.


* Joel Nesbitt, Exeter College, Oxford *
* "My vision: one nation, one tribe, *
* One day will come the might to move any mountain" *
Message no. 4
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Use of Good Karma
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:55:11 EST
On Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:06:17 -0500 Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
writes:
>In the games I've been GMing Good Karma has been used to raise
>attributes,
>skills, lock magical stuff. The sourcebook is unclear on how much
>karma
>is needed to raise attributes and skills.

Actually, I always thought that the core rules were very clear, but it's
been awhile since i read over that. Perhaps it isn't as clear as I
thought...


>
>If a guy with let's say body of 1 gets 6 karma, can he spend it to get
>a
>body of 6? I don't think so. In my campaign we've been making people
>progress at a rate of next highest number for instance: to get from
>body
>of 1 to body of 6, you need to pay 2+3+4+5+6= 20 good karma.

But don't let them do it all at once, it just doesn't work for realism:)


>
>This seems to be working. One of my PCs has recently tried to quote
>the
>book to the letter and is bugging me about this.

Don't let it bug you. You seem to have gotten it right so far, and
besides, the only person(s) who argue that way about such things are
munchkins (and they should be penalized for their problems, anyway:)


>
>Nonetheless, we allow raises in general skills from 1 to 6 by spending
>only 12 karma.

This, I wouldn't allow. Simply advancing level by level sequentially (1
to 2, 2 to 3, 3 to 4, etc) was always how it seemed to work to me.


>
>I'd like some feedback.

Well, you'll be getting it.

>
>Sincerely yours,
>Dust
>

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 5
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Use of Good Karma
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 20:29:39 EST
On Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:55:11 EST L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM> writes:

> Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG> writes:

>> In the games I've been GMing Good Karma has been used to raise
>>attributes, skills, lock magical stuff. The sourcebook is unclear on
how much
>>karma is needed to raise attributes and skills.

Not really, they're quite clear....see below.

>
>Actually, I always thought that the core rules were very clear, but it's
>been awhile since i read over that. Perhaps it isn't as clear as I
thought...

You're right....see below

>>
>>If a guy with let's say body of 1 gets 6 karma, can he spend it to get
>>a body of 6? I don't think so. In my campaign we've been making
people
>>progress at a rate of next highest number for instance: to get from
>>body of 1 to body of 6, you need to pay 2+3+4+5+6= 20 good karma.

That's because that's what the rule book says.....see below

>
>But don't let them do it all at once, it just doesn't work for realism:)
>

Yup...realism and common sence..

>
>>
>>This seems to be working. One of my PCs has recently tried to quote
>>the book to the letter and is bugging me about this.
>
>Don't let it bug you. You seem to have gotten it right so far, and
>besides, the only person(s) who argue that way about such things are
>munchkins (and they should be penalized for their problems, anyway:)
>
>>
>>Nonetheless, we allow raises in general skills from 1 to 6 by spending
>>only 12 karma.

Huh!? The rules are quite clear about that....and that is NOT what they
say..see below

>
>This, I wouldn't allow. Simply advancing level by level sequentially
>(1 to 2, 2 to 3, 3 to 4, etc) was always how it seemed to work to me.
>

Yup.

>>
>>I'd like some feedback.
>
>Well, you'll be getting it.
>

Here it is...see below..

>>
>>Sincerely yours,
>>Dust
>-Canthros

Below:

OK, the core rules/Black book/SRII says on page 190 under 'Good Karma':

"...A character can increase physical and mental attributes _1_ point by
paying a number of good karma points equal to the rating to which the
Attribute is being raised. Raising a Strength of 5 to 6 would cost 6
good karma points."

and

"..Skill ratings can also be raised using good karma. Once the karma has
been paid, the skill rating goes up _1_ point."

Thus, when you pay karma for an increase to an Attribute or Skill, the
attribute or skill goes up a single [1, one] point only. If you want to
go from 1 to 6 you have to pay for each increment (1 => 2, 2 => 3, 3 =>
4, 4 => 5, 5 => 6.) for a grand total of 40 [forty] karma (4+6+8+10+12 =
40) for a skill or 20 [twenty] karma (2+3+4+5+6) for an Attribute.

While this is only a house rule (borrowed mainly from White Wolf and
realism), it is a good idea to enforce the "Only one increase per
skill/attribute, per game" rule.

Hope this clears up any confusion.

~Tim
Message no. 6
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Use of Good Karma
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 20:58:49 -0700
Dust wrote:

>If a guy with let's say body of 1 gets 6 karma, can he spend it to get a
>body of 6? I don't think so. In my campaign we've been making people
>progress at a rate of next highest number for instance: to get from body
>of 1 to body of 6, you need to pay 2+3+4+5+6= 20 good karma.

Correct.

>Nonetheless, we allow raises in general skills from 1 to 6 by spending
>only 12 karma.

Nope. Skills are raised incrementally just like attributes.

BTW, in my game I only allow PCs to raise their stats and abilities 1 point
per adventure (4-6 sessions)

-David
Message no. 7
From: John Chesser <shaggy68@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Use of Good Karma
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 01:02:00 -0600
----------
> From: Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Use of Good Karma
> Date: Monday, February 10, 1997 12:06 PM
>
> In the games I've been GMing Good Karma has been used to raise
attributes,
> skills, lock magical stuff. The sourcebook is unclear on how much karma
> is needed to raise attributes and skills.
>
> If a guy with let's say body of 1 gets 6 karma, can he spend it to get a
> body of 6? I don't think so. In my campaign we've been making people
> progress at a rate of next highest number for instance: to get from body
> of 1 to body of 6, you need to pay 2+3+4+5+6= 20 good karma.

Karma can only be used to raise a skill or attribute by 1 point at a
time. You can go from a body of 1 to a body of 6 but it costs 19 Karma.
(Because it costs 2 to go up to level 2, 3 to go to level 3, 4 to go to
level 4......etc)

> This seems to be working. One of my PCs has recently tried to quote the
> book to the letter and is bugging me about this.

It shouldn't bug you, I can quote the book to the letter it says
nothing about raising an attribute or skill more than one point at any
time.
Pg 190 SRII- Under Good Karma, A character can increase Physical and Mental
attributes 1 point by paying a number of Good Karma Points equal to the
rating to which the Attribute is being raised.
Pg 190 SRII- Under Skills, Skill Ratings can also be raised using Good
Karma. Once the Karma has been paid, the Skill Rating goes up 1 point.
(singular)

> Nonetheless, we allow raises in general skills from 1 to 6 by spending
> only 12 karma.

General Skills are 2 times the new rating which can only go up 1 at a
time. So it would cost 40 Good Karma (about 8-10 runs) to raise a general
skill from 1 to 6. (Please correct me if my math is wrong)

> I'd like some feedback.
>
> Sincerely yours,
> Dust

Hope it
helps (clears up),
John
Message no. 8
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Use of Good Karma
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 04:12:15 -0500
At 08:58 PM 2/10/97 -0700, David Buehrer babbled:
>Dust wrote:
>
>>If a guy with let's say body of 1 gets 6 karma, can he spend it to get a
>>body of 6? I don't think so. In my campaign we've been making people
>>progress at a rate of next highest number for instance: to get from body
>>of 1 to body of 6, you need to pay 2+3+4+5+6= 20 good karma.
>
>Correct.
>
>>Nonetheless, we allow raises in general skills from 1 to 6 by spending
>>only 12 karma.
>
>Nope. Skills are raised incrementally just like attributes.
>
>BTW, in my game I only allow PCs to raise their stats and abilities 1 point
>per adventure (4-6 sessions)
>
That's prob a real good way to do it...

Keeps people from jacking all tehre points into one thing, getting real
good at it real fast... Especially if you aren't using the learning times
and stuff from teh Companion...

This was actally a rule in teh Star Wars RPG... You raised skills in
pips... You had #dice ratings, similar to SR, but you added all the
numbers... You'ld increase from 2D to 2D+1 to 2D+2 then finally to 3D...
and you could only raise it one pip per game, or adventure, depending on
when you haned out Character Points...

Bull-the-Star-Wars-freak
--
Now the Fearless Leader of the New Star Wars Mailing List!

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"I finally find a guy I like, and you got to go and kill him!"
-Kom, "Outlanders"
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Use of Good Karma
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:26:03 +0100
Dust said on 13:06/10 Feb 97...

> If a guy with let's say body of 1 gets 6 karma, can he spend it to get a
> body of 6? I don't think so. In my campaign we've been making people
> progress at a rate of next highest number for instance: to get from body
> of 1 to body of 6, you need to pay 2+3+4+5+6= 20 good karma.

That's the way it works, yes. For example, going from 4 to 5 costs 5 Good
Karma points, from 5 to 6 costs 6 Karma, and so from 4 to 6 in one go
costs 11 Karma.

> This seems to be working. One of my PCs has recently tried to quote the
> book to the letter and is bugging me about this.

If he wants to read the book to the letter, then he should have found out
that Attributes and skills are increased one point at a time. SRII page
190: "A character can increase Physical and Mental Attributes 1 point by
paying a number of Good Karma Points equal to the rating to which the
Attribute is being raised."

A number of groups interpret this rule as menaing you can raise each
Attribute only _once_ in your character's life, while others say it means
you can raise any and all of them as often as you like, up to the racial
maximum (or 1.5x racial maximum if the GM allows that).

> Nonetheless, we allow raises in general skills from 1 to 6 by spending
> only 12 karma.

For general skills, the Karma cost is twice the new rating, but you have
to go one point at time like for attributes. From 1 to 6 costs
(2+3+4+5+6)x2 = 40 Karma, not 12. With 12, you could get from 1 to 3 and
have 2 points left, nothing higher.
Again SRII page 190: "Once the Karma has been paid, the Skill Rating goes
up 1 point."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Standing on the sideline watching the show.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 10
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Use of Good Karma
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:39:26 +0000
On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, Joel Nesbitt wrote:

> > Nonetheless, we allow raises in general skills from 1 to 6 by spending
> > only 12 karma.
>
> Are you having a laugh?! Hey, it's your game, but the way we've always
> played it is to have incremental rising of skills and attributes, (i)
> because we'd never thought the rules could be interpreted any other way,
Well when I read SRII I knew what was meant, but also saw that it could be
misinterpreted just the way it has been here.

Thats why I liked the old way - the karma cost was based upon Current
Skill levels e.g. to raise Strength from 4 to 5 would cost 4 karma. This
way you wouldn't interpret it as paying karma to increase your skill up to
your current level (a paradox).

When I was reading SRII I thought one good thing to come out of it is that
it would be unambigous to determine how much karma you pay for the first
point of a new skill i.e. 2 x Desired rating, 2 x 1 = 2 (In SRI current
skill was 0, therefore 2 x 0 = 0! You had to know to pay a base of 1). But
then what do FASA do? They make the cost of the first skill point 1 karma
not 2!!!!!!!!! (Just a very minor quibble :)

The Digital Mage aka Grant Erswell - mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Sadder still to watch it die, than never to have known it"
-Rush, Losing It
Message no. 11
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Use of Good Karma
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:37:25 -0700
> > Nonetheless, we allow raises in general skills from 1 to 6 by spending
> > only 12 karma.
>
> For general skills, the Karma cost is twice the new rating, but you have
> to go one point at time like for attributes. From 1 to 6 costs
> (2+3+4+5+6)x2 = 40 Karma, not 12. With 12, you could get from 1 to 3 and
> have 2 points left, nothing higher.
> Again SRII page 190: "Once the Karma has been paid, the Skill Rating goes
> up 1 point."
>
This brings up a question I have...we have always raised skills the above
described way, but it appears that alot of people are raising skills the
exact same way as attributes. I was just wondering because it explain why
some people have such high skill ratings.

~Caric

"All the world's indeed a stage, we are mearly players.
Performers and portrayers. Each anothers audience,
outside the gilded cage." -Rush
caric@*******.com
Message no. 12
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Use of Good Karma
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:20:59 +0100
On Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:06:17 -0500, Dust wrote:

>In the games I've been GMing Good Karma has been used to raise attributes,
>skills, lock magical stuff. The sourcebook is unclear on how much karma
>is needed to raise attributes and skills.

No. At least my german version is in no way unclear about it.
After reading your posts I think it's not enough owning the books,
you shoul actually read them. If you don't find things then, read
again.

>If a guy with let's say body of 1 gets 6 karma, can he spend it to get a
>body of 6? I don't think so. In my campaign we've been making people
>progress at a rate of next highest number for instance: to get from body
>of 1 to body of 6, you need to pay 2+3+4+5+6= 20 good karma.

Just like my sourcebook once said (but this from memory).

>This seems to be working. One of my PCs has recently tried to quote the
>book to the letter and is bugging me about this.
>
>Nonetheless, we allow raises in general skills from 1 to 6 by spending
>only 12 karma.

Illegal. Think of game police...

>I'd like some feedback.

Well, you read my feedback. Now read the books.

>Sincerely yours,
>Dust
>
And after all, I don't want to offend you, but I simply don't
understand your difficulties finding all these rules.
(And this with me working from german books, which are widely
considered as being loaded with typos, errors, and b*llsh*t).

--
Arno
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Message no. 13
From: Mike Hartmann <hartmann@***********.M.EUNET.DE>
Subject: Re: Use of Good Karma
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:20:03 +0000
On 10 Feb 97 at 13:06, Dust wrote:

> If a guy with let's say body of 1 gets 6 karma, can he spend it to get a
> body of 6? I don't think so. In my campaign we've been making people
> progress at a rate of next highest number for instance: to get from body
> of 1 to body of 6, you need to pay 2+3+4+5+6= 20 good karma.

Correct... Some groups even allow to raise attributes only once (like
in SR I), to avoid players assigning a low priority to attributes
(and thus a higher to skills), because raising attributes is cheaper
than raising skills.

> Nonetheless, we allow raises in general skills from 1 to 6 by spending
> only 12 karma.

Ouch... Like with attributes you have to increase skills step-by-
step...


Bye Mike

Further Reading

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