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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Aethelwulf)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Wed Aug 21 18:05:01 2002
> Might as well put this whole Navy thing to good use by doing some SR
> conversions...
>
> EMFN John Valeu
> -AKA- TimeKeeper
>
funny you should mention that, I was thinking of allowing the rigger that is
going to be in my new campaign to eventually work his way up to having a
ship of some sort as a base of operations for the entire team. any
suggestions? (even suggestions like get real will be accepted) ;)

Aethelwulf
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Wed Aug 21 18:40:01 2002
In a message dated Wed, 21 Aug 2002 5:10:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
uptoic@***********.net writes:

>
>
> > Might as well put this whole Navy thing to good use by doing some SR
> > conversions...
> >
> > EMFN John Valeu
> > -AKA- TimeKeeper
> >
> funny you should mention that, I was thinking of allowing the rigger that is
> going to be in my new campaign to eventually work his way up to having a
> ship of some sort as a base of operations for the entire team. any
> suggestions? (even suggestions like get real will be
> accepted) ;)
>
> Aethelwulf



He he he now ther's an idea for my character :))))


I was wondering what to do for my next vehicle. a large ship to be a "base"
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Colvard)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:15:00 2002
And don't let the cost of a ship or even a sub bother ya, last i hear the
old USSR is selling old (crappy) kilo subs for only 50K a pop, of course
that means you supply the crew, training, and translating all the labels
from russian to what ever language you choose (poor poor idian navy). And
yeah, their diesel, but i hear that in the last 10 yrs or so that the boys
down in south america been buying them to up to do some rather shady
smuggling ops into north america. Two Counter Drug Ops, and ya pick up some
interesting tricks about smugglers and what all they do to get stuff into
the country. So ask away about buying old military ships (and subs) had
6yrs in before my knee decided to stop working for me, my specialty was
sonar, and if you need to know anything, sonar or subs, just ask away.

NavyMerc


>From: "Aethelwulf" <uptoic@***********.net>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
>Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
>Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:10:29 -0600
>
> > Might as well put this whole Navy thing to good use by doing some SR
> > conversions...
> >
> > EMFN John Valeu
> > -AKA- TimeKeeper
> >
>funny you should mention that, I was thinking of allowing the rigger that
>is
>going to be in my new campaign to eventually work his way up to having a
>ship of some sort as a base of operations for the entire team. any
>suggestions? (even suggestions like get real will be accepted) ;)
>
>Aethelwulf
>
>
>




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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Thanatos)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Wed Aug 21 21:25:01 2002
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, John Colvard wrote:

>
>
> And don't let the cost of a ship or even a sub bother ya, last i hear the
> old USSR is selling old (crappy) kilo subs for only 50K a pop, of course
> that means you supply the crew, training, and translating all the labels
> from russian to what ever language you choose (poor poor idian navy). And
> yeah, their diesel, but i hear that in the last 10 yrs or so that the boys

A KILO-class would serve remarkably poorly as a base of
operations. Limited range, cramped quarters, not to mention the fact that
you can't bring aboard any sizeable piece of equipment (small
personnel/cargo hatches), nor can you carry anything externally on the
boat. Unless, of course, you could find some less-than-legal drydock
willing to do some extensive overhaul for the right price....

Hey, NavyMerc, what were the dates of your CDOPS? Not, by chance, May to
Oct 01?

Grendel

-------------------------------------------------------------

The essence of life is struggle and its goal
is domination. There are higher goals and
deeper meanings, but they exist only within
the mind of man. The reality of life is war.

-- The Way and The Power
Lovret
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Wed Aug 21 22:10:01 2002
> last i hear the
> old USSR is selling old (crappy) kilo subs for only 50K a pop, of course
> that means you supply the crew, training, and translating all the labels
> from russian to what ever language you choose (poor poor idian navy).

Really? I would of thought you'd have been able to get 50K just for it as scrap metal
value. And whilst they are diesels, I thought they had a pretty good write-up, the
upgraded ones at least. But you're the expert I suppose. I'll have to do some digging on
this now, I'm curious.
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (-Â¥-Zeb-Â¥-)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Wed Aug 21 22:20:01 2002
"Aethelwulf" <uptoic@***********.net> wrote:
>
> funny you should mention that, I was thinking of allowing the rigger that
is
> going to be in my new campaign to eventually work his way up to having a
> ship of some sort as a base of operations for the entire team. any
> suggestions? (even suggestions like get real will be accepted) ;)
>
> Aethelwulf
>
>

Funny you should mention *that*. I was just talking with a player of mine
about making a freight train into a base of operations. I realise that the
weak link is the fact that it's on the railroad tracks, but aside from that
I liked the concept. Anyone ever done that before?

Z
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Iridios)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Wed Aug 21 22:30:01 2002
-¥-Zeb-¥- wrote:
>
> "Aethelwulf" <uptoic@***********.net> wrote:
> >
> > funny you should mention that, I was thinking of allowing the rigger that
> is
> > going to be in my new campaign to eventually work his way up to having a
> > ship of some sort as a base of operations for the entire team. any
> > suggestions? (even suggestions like get real will be accepted) ;)
> >
> > Aethelwulf
> >
> >
>
> Funny you should mention *that*. I was just talking with a player of mine
> about making a freight train into a base of operations. I realise that the
> weak link is the fact that it's on the railroad tracks, but aside from that
> I liked the concept. Anyone ever done that before?

Why not use a road train, like the ones mentioned in RBB? Customize it
(is that possible?) for dual surface running. About the only place you
can't go with one is cities and water bodies. And the latter is
probably conquerable.


--
Iridios
--
From:The Top 100 Things I'd Do
If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord
(http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html)

If I ever talk to the hero on the phone, I will not taunt him.
Instead I will say this his dogged perseverance has given me new
insight on the futility of my evil ways and that if he leaves me
alone for a few months of quiet contemplation I will likely
return to the path of righteousness. (Heroes are incredibly
gullible in this regard.)

Used Without Permission
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Colvard)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Wed Aug 21 23:00:00 2002
Oh man oh man, brain freeze, blonde moment, i don't know what i was
thinking, but i got my facts wrong, its not the kilo that i was thinking
about, but rather the foxtrot class of attack submarines. The kilos are
rather good, and is a cash cow for the russians now (selling them to just
about everyone, and yes they are newer models). Also something else i
wanted to mention to a earlier post, the range. You see, diesel boats only
run on the diesel generators when they are on the surface (can even run them
when they are in excess of 30 feet under by using basically a snorkel that
runs up to the surface via the parascope). So when they are on the surface,
they run the diesel engines to recharge their batteries. Back in WWII
german U-boats made it all the way from their home ports in the Netherlands
and Germany across the atlantic and up and down the coast of North America
and into the carribean. Now days, i can't even begin to fathom the ranges
that they could make now, and by 2060 standards, heck, probably be able to
get nearly 2/3'rds around the world. So i don't think range would be too
much a problem.

Always happy to help,

The NavyMerc

(why can't i say things in fewer words)
>
> > last i hear the
> > old USSR is selling old (crappy) kilo subs for only 50K a pop, of course
> > that means you supply the crew, training, and translating all the labels
> > from russian to what ever language you choose (poor poor idian navy).
>
>Really? I would of thought you'd have been able to get 50K just for it as
>scrap metal value. And whilst they are diesels, I thought they had a pretty
>good write-up, the upgraded ones at least. But you're the expert I suppose.
>I'll have to do some digging on this now, I'm curious.




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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Thu Aug 22 04:45:00 2002
>From: "Aethelwulf" <uptoic@***********.net>
>funny you should mention that, I was thinking of allowing the rigger that
>is
>going to be in my new campaign to eventually work his way up to having a
>ship of some sort as a base of operations for the entire team. any
>suggestions? (even suggestions like get real will be accepted) ;)

Not a bad idea actually, in fact it's not bad enough that I think I steal
it.
Military surplus is a wonderful thing for this, you can't buy the really
major stuff (carriers, battleships...etc) but I have seen destroyers
available at auction. I'm afraid I can't find the appropriate site so...
The MoD offer all sorts of stuff for export only (which is a real git 'cause
I'd quite like to drive to work in a challenger.)
You're best bet I think would be a US Coast Guard cutter, big enough to have
a helipad (and I think just big enough to carry boats, thus being a
ship)(and with the gun removed enough space on the foredeck to load up some
other "essential" gear.) but small enough that with rigger mods and some
other 2060's modern streamlining systems it could be manned by a very very
small crew.
One of my players was looking at buying a yaught at one point, he had this
crazy idea that if he shelled out for a luxurious boat he could park it in
Tacoma and never have to pay lifestyle costs again...
He abandoned the idea when we pointed out that he'd have to pay for the
birth, he'd still have to buy food and pay for various "sundry" expenses
(bribes to the harbourmaster so that he "forgets" seeing him sneak aboard
with blood dripping from his guts...etc)
The biggest problem with using a ship though is what happens when corp A
discovers it. Imagine it, you're holding station in international waters, 8
people on board let's say, can 8 people cover the entire vessel against the
incursion of corp A's Seal teams B, C, D & E?

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Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Thu Aug 22 05:50:01 2002
>From: -¥-Zeb-¥- <zebulingod@*****.com>
>Funny you should mention *that*. I was just talking with a player of mine
>about making a freight train into a base of operations. I realise that the
>weak link is the fact that it's on the railroad tracks, but aside from that
>I liked the concept. Anyone ever done that before?

Road Train, rather than railway but...
It's working out quite nicely at the moment.

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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Thu Aug 22 05:55:13 2002
According to <zebulingod@*****.com>, on Thu, 22 Aug 2002 the word on the street
was...

> Funny you should mention *that*. I was just talking with a player of mine
> about making a freight train into a base of operations. I realise that
> the weak link is the fact that it's on the railroad tracks, but aside
> from that I liked the concept. Anyone ever done that before?

You could go for a Nordkapp-Conestoga Bergen with a couple of trailers behind it.
In about 5000 CF, you should be able to pack enough living space and equipment
stowage to support a shadowrunner team, I'd think.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Huh?
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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Thu Aug 22 05:55:40 2002
According to Lone Eagle, on Thu, 22 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...

> The MoD offer all sorts of stuff for export only (which is a real git
> 'cause I'd quite like to drive to work in a challenger.)

Just wait until they're selling them off as surplus to requirements, or for
being obsolete. There are a fair number of Chieftain MBTs (the Challenger
1's predecessor) in private hands in the UK, for example.

Although I'm not so sure you'd still like to drive it after the first time
you take it into a petrol station... What does 1592 liters of diesel cost
in Britain these days? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Huh?
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Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Thu Aug 22 06:30:01 2002
>From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>
>Just wait until they're selling them off as surplus to requirements, or for
>being obsolete. There are a fair number of Chieftain MBTs (the Challenger
>1's predecessor) in private hands in the UK, for example.

I've not seen any way of buying any British Military vehicles except for
export, I'll have to do more digging.

>Although I'm not so sure you'd still like to drive it after the first time
>you take it into a petrol station... What does 1592 liters of diesel cost
>in Britain these days? :)

Let's see, we're at about 80p per litre at the moment I think so:

1592 x 0.8 = 1273.6

Nigh on thirteen hundred pounds. but then the tank itself would probably
cost more than my house so...
When I win the lottery I'll barely notice it!

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Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Number Ten)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Thu Aug 22 10:25:01 2002
--- Lone Eagle <loneeagle2061@*******.com> wrote:
> >From: "Aethelwulf" <uptoic@***********.net>
> >funny you should mention that, I was thinking of allowing the rigger
> that
> >is
> >going to be in my new campaign to eventually work his way up to having a
> >ship of some sort as a base of operations for the entire team. any
> >suggestions? (even suggestions like get real will be accepted) ;)
>
> Not a bad idea actually, in fact it's not bad enough that I think I steal
> it.

My eventual plan for my Vladivostok-2056 campaign is for the NPC rigger
to acquire a submarine that could be used as a mobile base of operations.
Since the rigger is an NPC, I am not -too- encumbered by rules, except for
the part where I still have to design the sub in question. Don't suppose
any of you have SR stats for a KILO-class hanging around? Closest I ever
got to a KILO-class sub was vacationing on the Black Sea. (Yeah, I'm
Russian IRL, much good though this does me. :))

> One of my players was looking at buying a yaught at one point, he had
> this crazy idea that if he shelled out for a luxurious boat he could park
> it in Tacoma and never have to pay lifestyle costs again...

One of mine -- an Orca shaman -- is living (with his NPC sister) on a
rundown houseboat anchored in Amursky Bay. I'm charging him for Low
lifestyle. Works for all concerned. :)

> The biggest problem with using a ship though is what happens when corp A
> discovers it. Imagine it, you're holding station in international waters,
> 8 people on board let's say, can 8 people cover the entire vessel against
> the incursion of corp A's Seal teams B, C, D & E?

That's not any more of a problem than, say, holding a warehouse against
those same SEAL teams. Or holding a suburban house. Pissing off a corp
enough that they'll send SEAL teams after you is a bad idea completely
apart from where you happen to hang your hat.

--Number 10.

====number_10_ox@**********.com

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Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Thu Aug 22 11:05:01 2002
>From: Number Ten <Number_10_Ox@**********.com>
>My eventual plan for my Vladivostok-2056 campaign is for the NPC rigger
>to acquire a submarine that could be used as a mobile base of operations.
>Since the rigger is an NPC, I am not -too- encumbered by rules, except for
>the part where I still have to design the sub in question. Don't suppose
>any of you have SR stats for a KILO-class hanging around? Closest I ever
>got to a KILO-class sub was vacationing on the Black Sea. (Yeah, I'm
>Russian IRL, much good though this does me. :))

I don't know how accurate all of this is but...
Deisel power-plant, virtually no ammenities, 6 half meter tubes forward, max
diving depth approx 300m, 11knots surface speed, 20 submerged. Range 7,500
miles surface or snorkelling at 7 knots, 400 submerged at 3 knots,
displacement 2,350 tons.
That's the best I can do I'm afraid.

BTW If you decide to come up with rules for what Tom Clancy claims the US
Navy used to call a "Crazy Ivan" do post them.


>That's not any more of a problem than, say, holding a warehouse against
>those same SEAL teams. Or holding a suburban house. Pissing off a corp
>enough that they'll send SEAL teams after you is a bad idea completely
>apart from where you happen to hang your hat.

Holding a warehouse is easier, once they're in they're likely to be able to
see you yes but you're likely to be able to see them, it's going to be tough
but it comes down more or less to a firefight, a ship has all sorts of
places to hide, all sorts of ways in, it's got to be like holding the
Nacatomi building without the hostages, although at least you don't have
Bruce Willis running around.

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Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Colvard)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Thu Aug 22 11:40:00 2002
Lone Eagle on August 22nd Wrote...

>>Don't suppose
>>any of you have SR stats for a KILO-class hanging around? Closest I ever
>>got to a KILO-class sub was vacationing on the Black Sea.
>
>I don't know how accurate all of this is but...
>Deisel power-plant, virtually no ammenities, 6 half meter tubes forward,
>max diving depth approx 300m, 11knots surface speed, 20 submerged. Range
>7,500 miles surface or snorkelling at 7 knots, 400 submerged at 3 knots,
>displacement 2,350 tons.
>That's the best I can do I'm afraid.

Don't ask where i got this, but heres some stats right out of Jane's
Fighting Ships for Kilo Class Subs.
Max Speed Surfaced: 18 knots
Submerged: 26 knots
Depth, in excess of 1,300 feet.
Sonar: Mouse Roar~Active Sonar
Shark Fin~Passive Sonar
Compliment of weapons: 12 Soviete era Torpedos, range 20,000 yrds each.

>BTW If you decide to come up with rules for what Tom Clancy claims the US
>Navy used to call a "Crazy Ivan" do post them.
>
No, but i can come up with the Kissing Cross move surface ships come up with
to evade torpedos.

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Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Thu Aug 22 13:15:06 2002
According to Number Ten, on Thu, 22 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...

> Don't
> suppose any of you have SR stats for a KILO-class hanging around? Closest
> I ever got to a KILO-class sub was vacationing on the Black Sea. (Yeah,
> I'm Russian IRL, much good though this does me. :))

The best I can do is see what my 1989-vintage copy of Jane's Fighting Ships
has. It's pre-end-of-Cold-War, though, so more recent publications might
have more accurate data. The basics:

Displacement: 2400 tons on the surface, 3000 tons submerged
Main machinery: Diesel-electric
Speed: 18 knots dived, 11 knots surfaced
Complement: 45
Torpedo tubes: 6x 21-inch

In SR terms, I suppose you could start with a patrol submarine chassis
(Jane's lists it under the heading Patrol Submarines, so...); use a battery
engine with a diesel for auxilliary power; and give it a Speed rating of 18
x 1. 85 x 1.2 / 1.5 = 26 meters per turn.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Huh?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Number Ten)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Thu Aug 22 17:15:01 2002
--- Lone Eagle <loneeagle2061@*******.com> wrote:
> >From: Number Ten <Number_10_Ox@**********.com>
> > Don't suppose
> >any of you have SR stats for a KILO-class hanging around?

> I don't know how accurate all of this is but...
> Deisel power-plant, virtually no ammenities, 6 half meter tubes forward,
> max
> diving depth approx 300m, 11knots surface speed, 20 submerged. Range
> 7,500
> miles surface or snorkelling at 7 knots, 400 submerged at 3 knots,
> displacement 2,350 tons.
> That's the best I can do I'm afraid.

According to http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kilo877/, that's
pretty darn accurate. And I am not so much of a vehicle nut as to insist on
more accuracy than that. I'm working up the stats as we speak: I'll post
them when I'm done.

> BTW If you decide to come up with rules for what Tom Clancy claims the US
> Navy used to call a "Crazy Ivan" do post them.

I don't know that I trust Tom Clancy's research. Correction: I know I don't
trust Tom Clancy's research -- I know I've tossed 1 or 2 books of his
across the room for political or cultural inaccuracies. But according to
what I remember from "Hunt for Red October", a Crazy Ivan is just an
unexpected sharp turn to let the submarine check its sonar blind spot.
Sonar blind spots are in Rigger 3, pg. 33.

So, if we were doing SR3 Hunt for Red October... Captain Ramius would
declare a Driving Test (possibly a Positioning attempt?) and a Passive
Sensor test. The GM would call for a Passive Sensor test from Capt. Mancuso
to detect the Crazy Ivan attempt. In the movie, Capt. Mancuso succeeds, and
immediately orders his crew to cut engines and go to silent running in an
effort to improve his sub's Sonar signature.

(This is an approximation only: I don't know Rigger rules near as well as I
know the rest of SR. There's a reason I limited riggers to NPC types in my
game: I can fudge the rules all I want. :))

--Number 10

====number_10_ox@**********.com

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Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott Dean Peterson)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Thu Aug 22 17:45:00 2002
Gurth said

> You could go for a Nordkapp-Conestoga Bergen with a couple of
> trailers behind it.
> In about 5000 CF, you should be able to pack enough living
> space and equipment
> stowage to support a shadowrunner team, I'd think.
>

Yeah think Buckaroo Banzia and he only had a bus.

Scott
Message no. 20
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:32:17 -0700
On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:25:41 -0700
-¥-Zeb-¥- <zebulingod@*****.com> wrote:
> "Aethelwulf" <uptoic@***********.net> wrote:
> >
> > funny you should mention that, I was thinking of allowing the
> rigger that
> is
> > going to be in my new campaign to eventually work his way up to
> having a
> > ship of some sort as a base of operations for the entire team. any
> > suggestions? (even suggestions like get real will be accepted) ;)
> >
> > Aethelwulf
> >
> >
>
> Funny you should mention *that*. I was just talking with a player of
> mine
> about making a freight train into a base of operations. I realise
> that the
> weak link is the fact that it's on the railroad tracks, but aside
> from that
> I liked the concept. Anyone ever done that before?
>
> Z
Well, If it's a derelect RR, getting from town a to town b will be
problematic, at least. If it's operational, expect to have the decked
insert movement orders into the dispatch system everytime you move,
and make sure you don't get your private train noticed at towns where
runs occur. But hey, private railcars! Gotta be a way to use 'em!
--Anders
Message no. 21
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:38:24 +0000
>From: Number Ten <Number_10_Ox@**********.com>
>I don't know that I trust Tom Clancy's research. Correction: I know I don't
>trust Tom Clancy's research -- I know I've tossed 1 or 2 books of his
>across the room for political or cultural inaccuracies.

Maybe but to the layman who isn't particularly interested in (for example)
submarines or who's knowledge doesn't extend much past the WWII wolf packs
he's a doorway.
I admit that I believe that he really shouldn't have written 90% of Patriot
Games (especially the bits where Ryan is talking to members of the Royal
family (the British Royal family that is)) but on the other hand, the fact
that you don't trust his research is a bonus from his point of view. If he
uses enough inaccurate information he conceals the accurate stuff, if he'd
given the absolute truth as far as he could tell on everything then he could
probably have expected lots of guys in black Nomex to drag him off to face
spying charges.

>But according to
>what I remember from "Hunt for Red October", a Crazy Ivan is just an
>unexpected sharp turn to let the submarine check its sonar blind spot.
>Sonar blind spots are in Rigger 3, pg. 33.

It's also a sort of "Passive Ram" IIRC. It's been a while since I read "Red

October" but as I recall the maneuver goes something like:
Goose the engines, increasing the speed and forcing any trailing sub to do
the same degrading their Sonar performance.
Cut right back and put on hard rudder allowing you to check your baffles and
putting a huge lump of steel in any trailing sub's path (with the aim
presumably of smashing their nose and wrecking their Sonar's performance.) I
don't know how willing submarine commanders would actually have been to do
that but... so do you have the lead sub make a ramming test or do you force
a crash test on the tail?

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Message no. 22
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 11:14:23 +0200
According to Scott Dean Peterson, on Thu, 22 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...

> Yeah think Buckaroo Banzia and he only had a bus.

So as not to make this a one-word reply, I'm adding this bit, but basically, I'm
typing this to ask: Who? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Huh?
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Message no. 23
From: Christian@********.org (Christian Casavant)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 09:04:29 +0000 (GMT)
Buckaroo Banzai was the greatest superhero in the history of
superheros. He was an adventurer, scholar, gentleman, musician, and all
around great guy.

He makes Superman look like a neanderthal!

It comes from a film called Adventures of buckaroo Banzai across the 8th
Dimension. Classic cult film. If you can find it, see it. In fact, go
to the video store right now! There's nothing more important you should
be doing than watching Buckaroo!

Hehe, I can still remember:

Where are we going?
Planet Ten!
When?
REAL SOON!

And my all time favourite qoute: History is made at night. Character is
what you are in the dark!


Xian.
Message no. 24
From: flakjacket@***********.com (flakjacket@***********.com)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations [was RE: Hello...]
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 13:21:31 +0100 (BST)
Someone mentioned that diesel subs have to come up to the surface or run a snorkel up when
using their diesle engines to re-charge their batteries.

This is so that they can pump in enough fresh air to use the diesel's right? So in the
2060's with subs having oxygen generators they could effectively re-charge on the bottom
of the seabed and only have to come up to re-supply? I know that using diesel engines
underwater would make a ot of noise and push their signature up, but even so.
Message no. 25
From: flakjacket@***********.com (flakjacket@***********.com)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 13:25:22 +0100 (BST)
Number Ten wrote:

> My eventual plan for my Vladivostok-2056 campaign is for the NPC rigger
> to acquire a submarine that could be used as a mobile base of operations.

Just remember though. With all the Korean pirates using subs and with the Japanese and
Russian navies facing off against each other, people are pretty quick to fire on
unidentified subs in that area. Always a good way to crank up the tension. ;)

Don't suppose
> any of you have SR stats for a KILO-class hanging around? Closest I ever
> got to a KILO-class sub was vacationing on the Black Sea. (Yeah, I'm
> Russian IRL, much good though this does me. :))

It's not a Kilo class, but Rigger 3 has a 2060's version of a diesel/battery patrol sub in
the back.
Message no. 26
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations [was RE: Hello...]
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 13:00:35 +0000
>From: flakjacket@***********.com
>Someone mentioned that diesel subs have to come up to the surface or run a
>snorkel up when using their diesle engines to re-charge their batteries.
>
>This is so that they can pump in enough fresh air to use the diesel's
>right? So in the 2060's with subs having oxygen generators they could
>effectively re-charge on the bottom of the seabed and only have to come up
>to re-supply? I know that using diesel engines underwater would make a ot
>of noise and push their signature up, but even so.

Running oxygen generators to provide breathable air for maybe 50 people is a
whole lot different from running ones sufficient to feed a hungry marine
diesel.
Modern subs use Scrubbers to minimise the need for outside sources of air
(including compressed air tanks) so I would assume ox-gennies fulfill the
same role, albeit more efficiently.
Think, if nothing else about the exhausts from the diesels, look at a diesel
car starting first thing in the morning, would you want to be stuck inside a
tin can with something 8 times that size (the marine diesels we have here as
backup power are roughly 16 litre, I can't tell you what size a sub like the
foxtrot or kilo are likely to be.) I doubt that even after 61 years of R&D
scrubbers could be made efficient enough to cope with that sort of output.
Then again Man and Machine made this possible so...
http://matrix.dumpshock.com/tzeentch/Shadowrun/Rants/sr_bodypower.htm

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Message no. 27
From: danturek@*******.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:19:25 -0400
> > The biggest problem with using a ship though is what happens when corp A
>discovers it. Imagine it, you're holding station in international waters
>
>That's not any more of a problem than, say, holding a warehouse against
>those same SEAL teams. Or holding a suburban house.
>--Number 10.

No, there is a big difference. In a normal area there are neighbors and
cops. There is a possibility of an international incident. The old SR
modules with Aztechnology used this now and then - actually in all the ones
I can remember. Even if you are in the Barrens, if the SEALs split up and
gain tactical positions, the neighborhood gang might try to take out the
sniper in their turf who is far from all of his friends. In international
waters I would guess it would be piracy, but there doesn't seem to be
anything to hold the corp back from what they throw at you, and unless you
are in radio or visual contact at the time, repercussions will be
non-existant. The only things making it more difficult to attack someone at
sea is they will be detected earlier and the operation will probably cost
more.



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Message no. 28
From: lordmountainlion@***.rr.com (Scott Dean Peterson)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:30:33 -0600
> According to Scott Dean Peterson, on Thu, 22 Aug 2002 the
> word on the street was...
>
> > Yeah think Buckaroo Banzia and he only had a bus.

Gurth said,

> So as not to make this a one-word reply, I'm adding this bit,
> but basically, I'm
> typing this to ask: Who? :)

OMFG you dont know of Bukaroo Banzai and the adventures in the fth
dimention????? It started Peter wheller as a brain surgeron, samarai, rock
singer (among other talents). he was like a non super hero, for Democracy.
A cult clasic, hell even the Presidnat called on him to save the world. His
mobile CP was a Bus.

Go rent the Movie.

Scott
Message no. 29
From: Number_10_Ox@**********.com (Number Ten)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations [was RE: Hello...]
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 09:35:14 -0700 (PDT)
--- flakjacket@***********.com wrote:
> Someone mentioned that diesel subs have to come up to the surface or run
> a snorkel up when using their diesle engines to re-charge their
> batteries.
>
> This is so that they can pump in enough fresh air to use the diesel's
> right? So in the 2060's with subs having oxygen generators they could
> effectively re-charge on the bottom of the seabed and only have to come
> up to re-supply? I know that using diesel engines underwater would make a
> ot of noise and push their signature up, but even so.

Well, this response is kind of through my hat, since I couldn't -find- the
oxygen generator info in Rigger 3, but. The oxygen generators are
electrolytic, which means they would require power to run, which means you
would be draining the batteries with the generator at the same time as
you're charging them with the diesel. So... you still have to run a snorkel
line, even in 2060.

--Number 10.

====number_10_ox@**********.com

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Message no. 30
From: Number_10_Ox@**********.com (Number Ten)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 09:45:15 -0700 (PDT)
--- Gurth <Gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> According to Scott Dean Peterson, on Thu, 22 Aug 2002 the word on the
> street was...
>
> > Yeah think Buckaroo Banzia and he only had a bus.
>
> So as not to make this a one-word reply, I'm adding this bit, but
> basically, I'm
> typing this to ask: Who? :)

"The adventures of Buckaroo Banzai across the 8th dimension". 1984 American
movie with a tongue so far in cheek it's basically licking its own ear.
Quite funny if you go for that sort of thing -- I personally don't, but
Your Mileage May Vary.

--Number 10

====number_10_ox@**********.com

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Message no. 31
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations was RE: Hello...
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:16:51 +0200
According to Scott Dean Peterson, on Fri, 23 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...

> OMFG you dont know of Bukaroo Banzai and the adventures in the fth
> dimention?????

Hey, I could ask you if you've heard of Kabouter Plop, but I think I already know
the answer... :)

> It started Peter wheller as a brain surgeron, samarai,
> rock singer (among other talents). he was like a non super hero, for
> Democracy. A cult clasic, hell even the Presidnat called on him to save
> the world. His mobile CP was a Bus.

Okay... Peter Weller, to me, is Robocop and the guy from Naked Lunch...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Huh?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
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Message no. 32
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations [was RE: Hello...]
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 20:47:22 +0100
In article <7137861.1030105291476.JavaMail.root@***.0.0.1>,
flakjacket@***********.com writes
>Someone mentioned that diesel subs have to come up to the surface or
>run a snorkel up when using their diesle engines to re-charge their
>batteries.
>
>This is so that they can pump in enough fresh air to use the diesel's
>right? So in the 2060's with subs having oxygen generators they could
>effectively re-charge on the bottom of the seabed and only have to come
>up to re-supply?

How do you power your oxygen generator? Needs electricity, which drains
the battery, which means you can't run the diesel with a flat battery...
which is exactly when you need it. Even otherwise, you end up draining
the battery to make oxygen for the diesel to charge the battery... sort
of like a solar-powered flashlight :)

>I know that using diesel engines underwater would make a ot of noise
>and push their signature up, but even so.

The better option is AIP, Air Independent Propulsion. The Germans use
fuel cells, the Swedes use a Stirling-cycle engine: you use stored fuel
and oxidiser to generate power at low level, so that once you get to
your patrol area you can use the AIP system for steerage and hotel load
while the battery remains fully charged and you don't have to be
indiscreet by snorkelling every day or two.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 33
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations [was RE: Hello...]
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:33:04 +0200
According to flakjacket@***********.com, on Fri, 23 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...

> Someone mentioned that diesel subs have to come up to the surface or run
> a snorkel up when using their diesle engines to re-charge their
> batteries.
>
> This is so that they can pump in enough fresh air to use the diesel's
> right?

Yes.

> So in the 2060's with subs having oxygen generators they could
> effectively re-charge on the bottom of the seabed and only have to come
> up to re-supply? I know that using diesel engines underwater would make a
> ot of noise and push their signature up, but even so.

It would help if oxygen generators had a write-up in Rigger 3, instead of just a
mention in the submarine chassis stats...

But something to remember is that you never get something for nothing when it
comes to physics and chemistry -- generally speaking, you have to put in more than
you get out. Here, you need to run the diesels to provide the electricity necessary
to operate the oxygen generators needed to run the diesels.

I have this feeling there will be one of two problems (or mayb even both). One
possibility is that you'll need more power than the diesels can provide to generate
the oxygen they need. The other is that the efficiency of the oxygen generators
is so low that you need to dedicate such a huge volume of your boat to them that it
won't have room for much of anything else -- like crew, control systems, weapons,
or sensors... (And don't forget that the oxygen generators are also needed to keep
the crew alive at the same time, so you need even more of them.)

There are some solutions, but nothing that will really help the sub stay underwater
indefinitely, if you ask me. You could, for example, have only a small oxygen
generator, and store its output into oxygen tanks for the diesel. The problem there is
that it won't let the engines run after the tank is empty, while re-filling the tank will
most likely run into the efficiency problem again: requiring more oxygen than it
provides.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Huh?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 34
From: uptoic@***********.net (Aethelwulf)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations [was RE: Hello...]
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:48:25 -0600
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com]On Behalf Of Gurth
> Sent: August 24, 2002 5:33 AM
> To: Shadowrun Discussion
> Subject: Re: using a ship as a Base of operations [was RE: Hello...]
>
>
> According to flakjacket@***********.com, on Fri, 23 Aug 2002 the
> word on the street was...
>
> > Someone mentioned that diesel subs have to come up to the surface or run
> > a snorkel up when using their diesle engines to re-charge their
> > batteries.
> >
> > This is so that they can pump in enough fresh air to use the diesel's
> > right?
>
I would also think it logical that the snorkel would also be needed to get
rid of the exhaust from the diesels. and if it were just the exhuase issues,
venting it would again cause noise for sonar to pick up.

> But something to remember is that you never get something for
> nothing when it
> comes to physics and chemistry -- generally speaking, you have to
> put in more than
> you get out. Here, you need to run the diesels to provide the
> electricity necessary
> to operate the oxygen generators needed to run the diesels.

actually you are forgettig the laws of conservation of mass and energy, so
you get in the same ammount that you get out, but what you get out is not
always safe or useful.
Message no. 35
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: using a ship as a Base of operations [was RE: Hello...]
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 11:41:07 +0200
According to Aethelwulf, on Sat, 24 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...

> actually you are forgettig the laws of conservation of mass and energy,
> so you get in the same ammount that you get out, but what you get out is
> not always safe or useful.

I wasn't forgetting them -- it's just that IMHO they would only complicate
what I was saying without adding anything important to my point :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Huh?
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