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Message no. 1
From: jeremie.bouillon@****.fr (Jeremie Bouillon)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 02:08:07 +0200
I wander if you allow players to use karma pool for tests like training
time, sellings goods, designing or learning a new spell, developing a new
matrix utility, and so on ?

And if you do, without restriction ?
Message no. 2
From: tommy.lindner@******.de (Tommy Lindner)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 12:33:01 +0200
Jeremie Bouillon schrieb:
> I wander if you allow players to use karma pool for tests...>
> And if you do, without restriction ?

I do allow my players to use karma pool for long term activities but the
karma pool point can't be used until that activity is completed.
If the player for example tries to design a new spell and needs 10 days
doing so after using the reroll failure he won't have that karma pool
point until the end of that 10 days. With that rule my players usually
have a reduced karma pool for at least 2 runs but don't waste time for
not scoring any successess.

I hope that helps Tommy
Message no. 3
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 04:01:22 -0700 (PDT)
--- Tommy Lindner <tommy.lindner@******.de> wrote:
> Jeremie Bouillon schrieb:
> > I wander if you allow players to use karma pool
> for tests...>
> > And if you do, without restriction ?
>
> I do allow my players to use karma pool for long
> term activities but the
> karma pool point can't be used until that activity
> is completed.
> If the player for example tries to design a new
> spell and needs 10 days
> doing so after using the reroll failure he won't
> have that karma pool
> point until the end of that 10 days. With that rule
> my players usually
> have a reduced karma pool for at least 2 runs but
> don't waste time for
> not scoring any successess.

So the karma point does not come back until the (long
term) task whose success test it was used for is
completed? What if the task is never completed,
though?

cheers,

Jan Jaap


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Message no. 4
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 08:10:42 -0300
> So the karma point does not come back until the (long
> term) task whose success test it was used for is
> completed? What if the task is never completed,
> though?


It should come back if the runner fails or gives up along the way...

It's best not to engage in runs while you're in the middle of a
long-term project, tough :).


--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 5
From: tommy.lindner@******.de (Tommy Lindner)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 15:16:32 +0200
> So the karma point does not come back until the (long
> term) task whose success test it was used for is
> completed?

Yes. But I forgot to mention another special rule: If you score no
successess on a long term project you'll notice half way through. So on
a 30 days project you will notice after 15 days of work that you better
start again.

> What if the task is never completed, though?
If the player doesn't complete his task he won't get his karma pool
point back (and yes we have the 5 points limit). Otherwise this system
would be too easily abused. I think there should be a little drawback in
using karma pool on the long term things but at least you only have to
waste half of the time before you get your point(s) back.
In daily gaming this system works pretty well because if players use
this rule the pay off afterwarts usually equals any inconvenience.

Tommy
Message no. 6
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 16:47:36 +0100
At 01:08 AM 5/2/2005, you wrote:
>I wander if you allow players to use karma pool for tests like training
>time, sellings goods, designing or learning a new spell, developing a new
>matrix utility, and so on ?
>
>And if you do, without restriction ?

Yes, but they do have to remember that I refresh Karma Pool at the end of
particular scenes rather than the beginning... It only took one huge fight
after the PCs had spent Karma making a fortune through careful (and
Karmic) dealing before a run to make them rethink spending the stuff.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 7
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 13:02:07 -0300
On 5/2/05, Lone Eagle <loneeagle@********.co.uk> wrote:
> At 01:08 AM 5/2/2005, you wrote:
> >I wander if you allow players to use karma pool for tests like training
> >time, sellings goods, designing or learning a new spell, developing a new
> >matrix utility, and so on ?
> >
> >And if you do, without restriction ?
>
> Yes, but they do have to remember that I refresh Karma Pool at the end of
> particular scenes rather than the beginning... It only took one huge fight
> after the PCs had spent Karma making a fortune through careful (and
> Karmic) dealing before a run to make them rethink spending the stuff.

Wouldn't the dealing and the fighting constitute two different scenes,
meaning the pool should refresh at the end of the dealing?


--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 8
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 11:12:00 +0200
According to Tommy Lindner, on 02-05-2005 12:33 the word on the street
was...

> I do allow my players to use karma pool for long term activities but the
> karma pool point can't be used until that activity is completed.

<AOL>Me too.</AOL>

That also means that if an activity consists of multiple tests, Karma
pool used on one can't be used for the others.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 03:33:38 -0700 (PDT)
--- Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> According to Tommy Lindner, on 02-05-2005 12:33 the
> word on the street
> was...
>
> > I do allow my players to use karma pool for long
> term activities but the
> > karma pool point can't be used until that activity
> is completed.
>
> <AOL>Me too.</AOL>
>
> That also means that if an activity consists of
> multiple tests, Karma
> pool used on one can't be used for the others.

This is just too tempting...

So when do you apply the pool refresh rule? Consider
the activity of "staying alive", which is never ending
(unless you become undead :), or at least does not end
until your karma pool ceases to exist (though this
type of pool usage might fall under the hand-of-god
rule). :-D

Perhaps the status of a particular task, not the task
which it contributes to is essential for determining
pool refresh. In that case the karma pool should
refresh every time the task it has been used for has
become sufficiently irrelevant (i.e.: (fraction of)
resources/time have been invested & the failure has
resolved).

However, should karma pool then not refresh every
round of combat, or even after (a particular) "combat"
has taken place?

The quandary of the karma pool is finding the cutoff
point where a new "scene" begins and the old one
ceases to be. I suppose in SR3 this best left to the
GM's discretion, as this person is in the best
position to determine when fate would help the PCs out
a bit more... and when their luck would be running
out.

OTOH, perhaps it's possible to create a meta-gamerule
wherein the PC's right to "luck" is measured (say, one
refresh for every completed run), thereby allowing the
PC to refresh as desired.

cheers,

Jan Jaap

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Message no. 10
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 12:40:36 +0200
According to Jan Jaap van Poelgeest, on 03-05-2005 12:33 the word on the
street was...

> So when do you apply the pool refresh rule? Consider
> the activity of "staying alive", which is never ending
> (unless you become undead :), or at least does not end
> until your karma pool ceases to exist (though this
> type of pool usage might fall under the hand-of-god
> rule). :-D

I apply common sense, which you seem to lack at times ;)

For the record, in my games KP refreshes after every scene/encounter
(like it did in SRII), but for example a magician creating a magic item
over the course of a few months would count this as a single scene
(yeah, I know -- "what if he does something else in the mean time?"
Short answer: they haven't so far in my game :)

This in opposition to the SR3 guideline that a scene should generally be
considered equivalent to a game session.

> However, should karma pool then not refresh every
> round of combat, or even after (a particular) "combat"
> has taken place?

See above. My rule of thumb is that a scene ends when the PCs have time
to catch their breaths and reflect on what they've been doing recently.
So if they are sneaking into a facility and get into a firefight with
the security, then break off and a few minutes later get pursued by Lone
Star, all that is one scene -- the few minutes is not enough time to
think things through, so they don't get KP back. But if they shake off
the Lone Stars and lay low for a few hours before being spotted by a new
patrol, they will have their KPs back.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: Steve.Garrard@********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 12:41:59 +0200
Jan Jaap van Poelgeest wrote:
> [snip]
>
> OTOH, perhaps it's possible to create a meta-gamerule wherein
> the PC's right to "luck" is measured (say, one refresh for
> every completed run), thereby allowing the PC to refresh as desired.

As per Edge in BattleTech, that refreshed once per gaming session (or was
that a house rule :\ )


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon



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Message no. 12
From: tommy.lindner@******.de (Tommy Lindner)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 16:00:52 +0200
> Jan Jaap van Poelgeest, wrote
>
>> So when do you apply the pool refresh rule?

It's quite simple in my game: You finish the task, you get your pool
refreshed. In our gaming group it's quite a common habit to begin a
task, go on a run, work another bit on a task, go on a run etc.
Usually spending karma pool on long term activity leaves you with a
reduced karma pool for several sessions/runs, so players usually try to
avoid using.
For example: If yoou try to design a fokus you could spent karma on
every single dice roll and it would refresh when the time of the task
you used it for expires, like designing the formula.


Tommy
Message no. 13
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 18:44:18 +0100
At 05:02 PM 5/2/2005, Bira wrote:
>Wouldn't the dealing and the fighting constitute two different scenes,
>meaning the pool should refresh at the end of the dealing?

They would be different scenes but Karma pool wouldn't necessarily refresh
between times.
We refresh Karma Pool after significant scenes, dramatic moments. Meeting
Mr Johnson sometimes counts - but rarely; and certainly scraps with unnamed
mooks don't.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 14
From: james@****.uow.edu.au (James Niall Zealey)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 09:41:00 +1000
> From:
> Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
>
> For the record, in my games KP refreshes after every scene/encounter
> (like it did in SRII), but for example a magician creating a magic item
> over the course of a few months would count this as a single scene
> (yeah, I know -- "what if he does something else in the mean time?"
> Short answer: they haven't so far in my game :)
>

Karma pool for long term tests?

The way we work it - the time after one run, and before the next run is
treated as though it is part of the following run - any karma you use
during that time won't be available when you start the run. If you want
to use up your good luck when your life isn't on the line, that's your
choice.

As to when pool refreshes? Whenever I feel like it, or the end of the
run. Usually that means that if there's a significant period goes by in
the middle of a run, karma refreshes at the beginning of that period.
Occasionally if the characters have escaped something by the skin of
their teeth, I might refresh KP after that. It really depends on how I
feel. And how I feel depends on how cool the runners have been. So the
cooler the run and the runners, the more KP refreshes.
Message no. 15
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 18:39:42 -0400
At 02:08 AM 5/2/2005 +0200, you wrote:

>I wander if you allow players to use karma pool for tests like training
>time, sellings goods, designing or learning a new spell, developing a new
>matrix utility, and so on ?
>
>And if you do, without restriction ?

Sure, why not? They won't have it until after their next combat encounter,
however...
--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/
Message no. 16
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 00:22:10 +0100
On May 15, 2005, at 23:39, Ubiquitous wrote:

>> And if you do, without restriction ?
>>
>
> Sure, why not? They won't have it until after their next combat
> encounter,
> however...

If you're using canon rules, however, Karma pool returns every
24 hours. Of course, standard procedure is to not trigger the refresh
until the task is complete.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge
a perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 17
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:18:17 -0400
At 12:22 AM 5/16/2005 +0100, Max Noel <maxnoel_fr@*****.fr> wrote:
>On May 15, 2005, at 23:39, Ubiquitous wrote:

>>> And if you do, without restriction ?
>>
>> Sure, why not? They won't have it until after their next combat
>> encounter, however...
>
> If you're using canon rules, however, Karma pool returns every
>24 hours. Of course, standard procedure is to not trigger the refresh
>until the task is complete.

Canon Companion rules, or something they changed in 3rd edition?
--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/
Message no. 18
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 02:00:50 +0100
On Jun 7, 2005, at 01:18, Ubiquitous wrote:

>> If you're using canon rules, however, Karma pool returns every
>> 24 hours. Of course, standard procedure is to not trigger the refresh
>> until the task is complete.
>>
>
> Canon Companion rules, or something they changed in 3rd edition?

Shadowrun 3rd Edition, p. 104: "Karma pools refresh every 24
hours, or at the gamemaster's discretion".

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge
a perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 19
From: zebulingod@*******.net (Zebulin)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:11:03 -0700
Max Noel wrote:
+o+
+o+ Shadowrun 3rd Edition, p. 104: "Karma pools refresh
+o+ every 24 hours, or at the gamemaster's discretion".
+o+

Hmmm, maybe, but in my game, they refresh at the end of the "scene". (IE, at
the beginning/end of the game session.) It works well enough, and causes
people to be a little more careful of how they do things.

Zebulin

AIM: zebulingod
ICQ: 21932827
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Message no. 20
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: Using karma pool for long-term tests ?
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 20:25:35 -0400
At 02:00 AM 6/7/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>On Jun 7, 2005, at 01:18, Ubiquitous wrote:

>>> If you're using canon rules, however, Karma pool returns every
>>> 24 hours. Of course, standard procedure is to not trigger the refresh
>>> until the task is complete.
>>
>> Canon Companion rules, or something they changed in 3rd edition?
>
> Shadowrun 3rd Edition, p. 104: "Karma pools refresh every 24
>hours, or at the gamemaster's discretion".

Oh, I'm using 2nd edition. One of these days I'll have to start using 3rd,
I guess.
--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/

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