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Message no. 1
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Using M&M, MitS, First Run, Renraku Shutdown, etc...
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 18:55:15 -0800
Okay, I just got my players to create their characters for my first
active Shadowrun game since 1995. Right now, my instinct is to leave
most of the advanced material alone, but I'm curious as to experiences
in play?

How do the new MitS rules work? Is M&M a worthy addition, etc?

I'm trying to be on-topic here. Someone, help me out here. :-)

(apologies for WW posts. I do the same for Shadowrun on non-SR lists)

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 2
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Using M&M, MitS, First Run, Renraku Shutdown, etc...
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:52:17 -0500 (EST)
Excerpts from ShadowRN: 5-Mar-100 Using M&M, MitS, First Run,.. by
Marizhavashti Kali@*****
> Okay, I just got my players to create their characters for my first
> active Shadowrun game since 1995. Right now, my instinct is to leave
> most of the advanced material alone, but I'm curious as to experiences
> in play?
>
> How do the new MitS rules work? Is M&M a worthy addition, etc?

IMHO, if the players aren't asking for the new toys, there's no need
to put them in. MITS is pretty much Grimoire and Awakenings, revised
for SR3. Much cleaner, same sort of powers added, alternate magician
types added like the psionicist and wujen. Nothing particularly
necessary, unless you've got a player who is having problems finding a
character type they really want to play, and you think one of the
alternate magical traditions is going to help.
I'm still itching to play an eastern tradition mage at some point...
M&M is more toys and advanced rules. Again, nothing you're really going
to miss at first.
I recommend adding them in once the players are comfortable with the
main book. There's no need to swamp them with additional rules, but
they're both "worthy additions". We, naturally, integrated the rules as
soon as the books came out, but most of us are SR junkies that way.

Mark
Message no. 3
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Using M&M, MitS, First Run, Renraku Shutdown, etc...
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 23:46:49 -0800
Mark A Shieh wrote:
>
> I recommend adding them in once the players are comfortable with the
> main book. There's no need to swamp them with additional rules, but
> they're both "worthy additions". We, naturally, integrated the rules as
> soon as the books came out, but most of us are SR junkies that way.

Absolutely. If my group were long-time junkies (as I am), there'd be no
question.

I'm concerned mainly about differences from SR2 rules and how they
affect the game (initiations, metamagic, etc).

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 4
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Using M&M, MitS, First Run, Renraku Shutdown, etc...
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 10:42:53 +0100
According to Marizhavashti Kali, at 18:55 on 5 Mar 00, the word on the
street was...

> Okay, I just got my players to create their characters for my first
> active Shadowrun game since 1995. Right now, my instinct is to leave
> most of the advanced material alone, but I'm curious as to experiences
> in play?

If you haven't used the third edition rules yet, that's probably a good
idea.

> How do the new MitS rules work?

The stuff from MITS works pretty much like the rules from the Grimoire,
but with some holes plugged and everything made to fit with SR3 magic
rules. There has also been some streamlining, so some stuff works better
than it did in the past.

> Is M&M a worthy addition, etc?

That depends... if you want more cyberware, bioware, etc. it's a good
addition, but it can also make your players' lives much more difficult
(witness the recent "Realism sucks" thread, which started because of me
really applying the rules in that book for the first time...).

As for books like First Run and Renraku Arcology: Shutdown, well... FR may
be good if you're stuck for ideas or need an adventure quickly, but as has
been said before the adventures in it may not be the best ones for
starting characters.

RA:S isn't an adventure, it's a sourcebook, which you can stay away from
if you don't want to mess with the Arcology, or you can use it easily as a
setting for your campaign. Either would work even if you want to stick to
the basic rules, I'd say.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Because there are no stories about romance, no fairy-tale endings. Before
you run out and change the world, ask yourself, what do you really want?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Using M&M, MitS, First Run, Renraku Shutdown, etc...
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 02:00:39 -0800
Gurth wrote:
>
> According to Marizhavashti Kali, at 18:55 on 5 Mar 00, the word on the
> street was...
>
> > Okay, I just got my players to create their characters for my first
> > active Shadowrun game since 1995. Right now, my instinct is to leave
> > most of the advanced material alone, but I'm curious as to experiences
> > in play?
>
> If you haven't used the third edition rules yet, that's probably a good
> idea.

I have not. :-)

> > How do the new MitS rules work?
>
> The stuff from MITS works pretty much like the rules from the Grimoire,
> but with some holes plugged and everything made to fit with SR3 magic
> rules. There has also been some streamlining, so some stuff works better
> than it did in the past.

Cool. I've only read it, so have no practical experience to work from.

> > Is M&M a worthy addition, etc?
>
> That depends... if you want more cyberware, bioware, etc. it's a good
> addition, but it can also make your players' lives much more difficult
> (witness the recent "Realism sucks" thread, which started because of me
> really applying the rules in that book for the first time...).

Very true.

Realism doesn't suck, I think. The insistence that an RPG must be
rigorously realistic does, but that's a different matter entirely (and a
value judgement). Maybe the poster should have said "Balance Sucks!"

> As for books like First Run and Renraku Arcology: Shutdown, well... FR may
> be good if you're stuck for ideas or need an adventure quickly, but as has
> been said before the adventures in it may not be the best ones for
> starting characters.

Fair enough. Since these are new players, I can fall back on stuff I've
done before without them knowing it. Or even if they do know I've done
it before. :-)

> RA:S isn't an adventure, it's a sourcebook, which you can stay away from
> if you don't want to mess with the Arcology, or you can use it easily as a
> setting for your campaign. Either would work even if you want to stick to
> the basic rules, I'd say.

I think I'll stay out of the Arcology for awhile. It seems a bit nasty
for new characters.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 6
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Using M&M, MitS, First Run, Renraku Shutdown, etc...
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 07:26:35 EST
In a message dated 3/5/00 9:55:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
xenya@********.com writes:

> How do the new MitS rules work?

For the most part, yes very much so. If you want to create a game that is
"purely by the book", or a close similarity so as to allow your players the
ability to keep with constant rules that are printed, then it works just
fine. If you have to do any kind of modification due to a House Rule, like
all other things, you just need to keep that in mind from that point forward.

> Is M&M a worthy addition, etc?

IMO, yes it is as the cybernetics and bionetics rules are more considered of
the overall player than some previous editions. You also don't have another
trait/trick of previous editions of "cyber-expansions" in that the rules
don't have many "numbers above 3". IMPO, when a system has loads of
mechanics where the levels of something exceed the number "3" (and no, I
don't know why this is, it's just something I've noticed), everyone goes
nutso and enters into a numbers race.

> I'm trying to be on-topic here. Someone, help me out here. :-)

No problem. Just a thought though, as Patrick Goodman and *hopefully now*
Gurth should both be able to tell you, some of the adventures in "First Run"
are not really good examples of "beginning adventures". Just keep that in
mind as well.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 7
From: Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject: Using M&M, MitS, First Run, Renraku Shutdown, etc...
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 10:14:36 -0600
Marizhavashti Kali wrote:
>
> Okay, I just got my players to create their characters for my first
> active Shadowrun game since 1995. Right now, my instinct is to leave
> most of the advanced material alone, but I'm curious as to experiences
> in play?
>
> How do the new MitS rules work? Is M&M a worthy addition, etc?

I don't believe they are necessary to have a complete and varied world
and characters. There is plenty of cyberware and magic in the main book
and new players will not appreciate or notice the increase in choices.
However, introducing these books later one should be handled carefully.
In most campaigns, the majority of a character's cyber is acquired
during character creation. The street index and simple cost of major
additions just make it a slow improvement, as it should be.

I've started introducing components from M&M slowly into my game world
over the last several game months. Bioware has not even hit the streets
yet, in my game. It's not really fair (or realistic) to say "From this
moment on, everything in Man & Machine is available" and then going with
it. There are a lot of new things in there. Enemy street samurai are not
going to be tricked out with bioware because the material just became
available. Slowly start introducing NPCs with the new cyberware over the
course of a year or so of game time. Then the new 'ware is noticable and
truly feels like cutting edge material.

Now as for MitS, I think this could be used from the inception of the
campaign with little fuss. Gamers should be used to skimming lists of
spells and equipment in more than one book and spells are easy to read
and understand the first time through. The physical adept powers are
expanded almost two-fold and the rules do clean up some of the aspects
of magic. Don't worry about players running Wujen or Voodoo, just say
that those are more complex magician types and that you'd prefer
characters not play them at the beginning. The characters won't be
restricted compared to other NPCs, because they have full access to
shaman and mage abilities.

In summary:

M&M: Slowly introduce over a year of game time.
MitS: Yes, start with it.


--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

"Her eyes were cobalt red, her voice was cobalt blue."
-- Sisters of Mercy, Ribbons
Message no. 8
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Using M&M, MitS, First Run, Renraku Shutdown, etc...
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 16:17:00 -0500 (EST)
Excerpts from ShadowRN: 5-Mar-100 Re: Using M&M, MitS, First .. by
Marizhavashti Kali@*****
> I'm concerned mainly about differences from SR2 rules and how they
> affect the game (initiations, metamagic, etc).

Conceptually, they're very similar to the books they replaced. It's
pretty much the same as adding the appropriate half dozen SR2 books to a
game of SR2. The biggest change in MITS affects initiation and
metamagic. In SR3, you get at most one type of metamagic per initiation
grade, and they added a couple. M&M adds some surprisingly blatant
pieces of cyberware (Kid Stealth legs and the Balance tail are prime
offenders), as well as introducing crude nanotech and completely
revising chemicals/drugs. Apart from that, they're about on par with
SR2 rules books as far as how the powers affect the game. As far as the
little details go, they've changed a lot. I'd say they're about as
different as the main rules books for SR2 and SR3.
If you've seen the old versions of the books, maybe 80-85% of the
books can be classified as bug fixes and balance tweaks. They're
appreciated, and easy to reintegrate because some people don't even
consider them to be new material.

Mark
Message no. 9
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Using M&M, MitS, First Run, Renraku Shutdown, etc...
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 14:21:17 -0800
Mark A Shieh wrote:
>
> If you've seen the old versions of the books, maybe 80-85% of the
> books can be classified as bug fixes and balance tweaks. They're
> appreciated, and easy to reintegrate because some people don't even
> consider them to be new material.

I've read *all* of the old books and most of the new books. I like how
the changes look on paper, just curious how they work in practice.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com

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